tho FAW is useless against huge groups, with high health with its randomness
How is BO broken? I've been using it this whole time, but if it's TRIBBLE, I'll wanna know if I should switch it out.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "There are three things to remember about being a starship captain:
keep your shirt tucked in, go down with the ship, and never abandon a member of your crew."
- Kathryn Janeway
3x8+30 million ? Yeah that's totally a viable build for your standard cruiser pilot...
Anyway cannons>beams period
technicians are 4-5 million actually, warp core doff can be blue, and the 5th is optional anyway...i use "LAW"
now on the other side, what doffs that actaully do something are cheaper? Damage controle? Conn for tac team reduction?
there are no cheap doffs that actually are worth using
Cruisers and Beam Arrays are still underperforming and not even the X-th month late "look at my numbers!" posting is going to change that!
That cruisers doing an A2B build are some kind of escort with funnily even worse healing and zero support capability driving numbers higher by wildly flailing around is not addressing the core issue.
It's showing that no support or teamwork is necessary in this and many other STFs and that they can be done just through firepower.
So it's still Escorts Online, DPS ruling supreme and Science and Cruiser support abilities being optional and actually harming the team that would benefit from more focus on damage and damage alone.
So basically all you said above is this...
"Cruisers... your job is to heal escorts"
Riiiiiiiight....
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Someone early on asked for a video, so I just made one. It's a big shakey, only 17k DPS, and took just under 4 minutes. I didn't fly very well and you can tell that in the video, missed my A2B rotations twice (still getting used to it) and we had a player completely take out all of the spheres before we were done with the transformer, so I lost a lot of damage there. Either way, just shows. I'll stick it in the OP when it's done uploading.
3x8+30 million ? Yeah that's totally a viable build for your standard cruiser pilot...
Anyway cannons>beams period
Purrllleeeease. Technicians are FREE from support missions (Support B'Tran) I have loads of them.
The only two "expensive" doffs I have are the space warfare specialist and Marion. Space warfare specialist isn't that expensive, and Marion is going up in price but you can still pick him up for 20m if you hawk the exchange.
Seriously, go and learn how to run minefield. One good lucky run is 8-10m EC. Run it on a KDF and you'll be swimming in money from double rewards, plus you can earn your daily dil refinement in 8 runs. Takes 5-10 mins tops.
As for Cannons > Beams. I tend to agree with you, I prefer the escort playstyle and I prefer CRF over BFAW. That's personal PREFERENCE, not pure numbers. As I have demonstrated.
why do you feel obligated to pick up a cruiser with an engi as first ship...it is a bad idea, just saying.
One million EC is absolutely nothing. You can get 600-800k just from three minutes of foundry abuse. With doffing and minefield, I tend to pull in about 20m per week. That's maybe 1 hour per day, 3 hours on weekends tops.
Rest of my gametime is spent running STFs and No-Win. Seriously, EC is pitifully easy to earn in this game!
Good post, OP...I enjoy flying cruisers and am always looking to improve my output. I have to admit, I don't recognize all of your consoles from their icons alone...would you be open to linking to your character's Gateway page, or is that Top Secret information?
...talking to players is like being a mall Santa. Everyone immediately wants to tell you all of the things they want, and you are absolutely powerless to deliver 99% of them.
Good post, OP...I enjoy flying cruisers and am always looking to improve my output. I have to admit, I don't recognize all of your consoles from their icons alone...would you be open to linking to your character's Gateway page, or is that Top Secret information?
Of course not, happy to share. Here is my build, I'll also stick it in the OP.
second tac team is wasted, even shows at 1:22 that they run the same cd parallel.
i would also argue that the DEM doff (marion) is actually having any effect...i don't use it, and even run energy weapons at 85 and hardly ever drop below 115 power...and when it drops either a AUX2BATT, or EPtW (or a warpcore proc from EPtS or EPtA) is ready
with better timeing you can do without, that is for sure...i mean it worked perfectly before that doff existed anyway.
but you can see the difference...with my engi at 10% crit chance and no crtH mod on the weapons, i hardly ever see crits...and when i crit, hardly ever one above 3k. With a tac that is a completely different story apparently. The weapons alone have 4% crit each...
need to build an aux2batt scimitar with my rom tac, that one has nearly 20% crit unbuffed.
Your profession/class has absolutely no impact on your ship regarding the boff powers...
Really ?
Soooo a Tac can do the same amount of damage in a Defiant , Odyssey and a D'Kyr ?
See from my POV , BOF stations & ship slots do determine the amount of DPS you can muster .
you scepticism about BFAW is a scepticism with AOE effects in general it seems...scatter volley, GW,
No , that's just you putting words in my mouth .
I spoke of FAW and FAW alone , and it seems that you had nothing next to nothing to reply .
following your logic any dmg that gets healed shouldn't be counted as dps by a parser.
Twisting once again .
Just to be clear -- things that don't get damaged should not count on a parser (yet they do) .
As in : I can enter ISE , go up to the gate and FAW it all day long , but as long as the transformers are up that don't mean Jack .
That kind of futile pew pew should not be counted , and I believe I gave other examples as well of what is equally futile .
I't not about things that heal themselves , it's about things the game does not **** as damage .
I hate to break it to you, but the game is centred around dealing dmg. and each class is more or less capable in doing so, if the right ship/build is used
Yeah , that is a real eye opener there ... , you've suddenly made me understand everything . :rolleyes:
What can I say , you are truly exploring the final frontier ... , the only frontier left to explore in this game ... -- the frontier of cheese .
And thanks to the Doff system & the consoles , you still have something interesting to play with ... even if at the end of the day while your combination may be ever growing , the content in which you get to explore your new heights of DPS is quite stale .
second tac team is wasted, even shows at 1:22 that they run the same cd parallel.
Yeah this is very true but there's nothing else even worth bothering with. Beam targets share a cooldown with BFAW, and I don't use any torps. It's either TT or nothing. For those times when I **** up my A2B rotation it's nice to have another copy.
Also - 1:22 is because I used Tac Initiative, NOT because of A2B. Still a vaild point though!
i would also argue that the DEM doff (marion) is actually having any effect...i don't use it, and even run energy weapons at 85 and hardly ever drop below 115 power...and when it drops either a AUX2BATT, or EPtW (or a warpcore proc from EPtS or EPtA) is ready
Fair point, might test with/without to see if I can notice any appreciable difference.
but you can see the difference...with my engi at 10% crit chance and no crtH mod on the weapons, i hardly ever see crits...and when i crit, hardly ever one above 3k. With a tac that is a completely different story apparently. The weapons alone have 4% crit each...
There is nothing wrong with cruisers. Cruisers are ALMOST fine as they are. They are as good as they are gonna get. There is nothing wrong with beams either, they are also as good as they are gonna get. If anything, Science Ships, Cruisers, Beams, and Torpedos are perfect.
I think the problem is still Escorts and the weapons they use, namely, DHCs. There is one thing with DHCs that I have always considered to be broken, and that is the -12 power drain. This number should be higher, at least -14 drain. Why do I say this? Well...a single cannon has a drain of -10. In all logic, why would a dual cannon (which, in theory is two single cannons taped together) have the same amount of drain as a single cannon. On top of this, why should a heavy version of two single cannons taped together only have a drain of -12? It doesn't make sense. If anything, it should break down like this:
I even put my neck out in zone chat, and asked if there is even an Escort captain that runs DCs...and I was met with 16 different responses along the lines of "Never run DCs when you can run DHCs". It is clear that any Escort Captain knows DHCs is better that DCs for a number of reasons. The fact is, DHCs are preferred and, as it stands, the extra -2 drain is meaningless. DHCs need more drain in order to both diversify the Escort build, give value to DCs and SCs on escorts, and bring the Escort down a notch.
If DHCs had more drain, they would be for the Escort Jocks who love to top off their weapon settings, while DCs should be created for the equal share people who like to spread the power around a little.
This is just my opinion.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you oppose the Reputation nerf, feel free to use my signature
Just ran a CSE with this build, WITHOUT technicians or DEM doff (I was still running my no win scenario doffs from a previous farming run. 2 AP doffs, energy weaps, deflector and gravametric. All completely useless doffs. STILL did 15k DPS
V'iv is trying out a similar build. Encounter time was 2 minutes 32 seconds. The carrier died in 17 seconds which I think is a new record for our channel
Carrier only numbers for people saying this has 4-5k single target damage.
Our main and sister channel is DPS-5,000. Anyone can get into that with any kind of build, 5k is very very easy to manage. Once you're in there, people chat, talk builds, crunch numbers
Thanks , but I have more fun helping out the noobs and crunching numbers & parsers were never my thing .
I have ran a few times with more "pro" players from the STFRaiders channel (with Branflakes & Azurian among others) but I found the experience too "mechanical" for my liking .
No one got in trouble , no one needed help , and in a way it was about what I perceived as "the excellence of execution" rather then fun .
(for all I know that is fun for some , I'm trying not to be judgy . )
So while the Elite_STF channel is bleeding players and the PublicEliteSTF channel is picking up players , I still find it a bit sad that more and more of the better players choose to wall themselfs off from the "general population" with more and more obscure STF channels .
All this is a far cry from when we all hanged out in Gamma Orianis and shouted in zone chat for more players to get a match going ... , and I can't help but to wonder if the PVP community would have behaved with the divisiveness that the STF community is currently behaving -- would we still have a PVP community ?
As for the 11k channel, the vast majority fly Kumaris, Fleet Defiants and Bugs. There aren't many A2B BFAW spambots at all.
I have ran a few times with more "pro" players from the STFRaiders channel (with Branflakes & Azurian among others) but I found the experience too "mechanical" for my liking .
No one got in trouble , no one needed help , and in a way it was about what I perceived as "the excellence of execution" rather then fun .
(for all I know that is fun for some , I'm trying not to be judgy . )
I can see that completely. For me, I've run them so many times now (Must be over a thousand) I just find if I run with extremely good players and only take 3-4 minutes per STF, I can just sit down for an hour, run them on all my toons and be done with the dil grind to leave me free to do other, more pleasurable, stuff.
The min-maxing number crunching stuff I don't do very often, only when I get sick of my build and decide it's time for a new one. Not really my idea of run either. It's all passing time until a no-win-scenario group forms.
So while the Elite_STF channel is bleeding players and the PublicEliteSTF channel is picking up players , I still find it a bit sad that more and more of the better players choose to wall themselfs off from the "general population" with more and more obscure STF channels .
Good, I'm glad that ESTF is bleeding players. The admins are all uptight, whiny, militant, power-hungry ***holes who have no respect for anyone but themselves. It's pretty staggering how bad that channel has become over the past 6 months.
All this is a far cry from when we all hanged out in Gamma Orianis and shouted in zone chat for more players to get a match going ... , and I can't help but to wonder if the PVP community would have behaved with the divisiveness that the STF community is currently behaving -- would we still have a PVP community ?
Back in the days *gets nostalgic* before STFs were solved content. When we hadn't all run THE SAME MISSION a billion times over, it made sense. It was fun, exciting, adventurous - but given that it's gotten a bit stale, all we want to do is get the rewards. We try and make it fun by chasing optional timers and crunching numbers, but that's only because the actual content itself is so incredibly mind-numbingly face-mashingly boring now.
Thanks , but I have more fun helping out the noobs and crunching numbers & parsers were never my thing .
I have ran a few times with more "pro" players from the STFRaiders channel (with Branflakes & Azurian among others) but I found the experience too "mechanical" for my liking .
No one got in trouble , no one needed help , and in a way it was about what I perceived as "the excellence of execution" rather then fun .
(for all I know that is fun for some , I'm trying not to be judgy . )
So while the Elite_STF channel is bleeding players and the PublicEliteSTF channel is picking up players , I still find it a bit sad that more and more of the better players choose to wall themselfs off from the "general population" with more and more obscure STF channels .
All this is a far cry from when we all hanged out in Gamma Orianis and shouted in zone chat for more players to get a match going ... , and I can't help but to wonder if the PVP community would have behaved with the divisiveness that the STF community is currently behaving -- would we still have a PVP community ?
Yeah .... ummm , no thanks . :P
I thought the PVP community already ate itself.....
Anyways, I played the old "Nintendo Hard" version of "Devil's Choice". Dragon flagship builds were the only thing that could reliably stand up to the punishment the Elachi were capable of dishing out while retaliating with effective fire.
DHCs need more drain in order to both diversify the Escort build, give value to DCs and SCs on escorts, and bring the Escort down a notch.
If DHCs had more drain, they would be for the Escort Jocks who love to top off their weapon settings, while DCs should be created for the equal share people who like to spread the power around a little.
This is just my opinion.
Agreed.
Also, escorts' tanking abilities should be destroyed completely. I can see escorts who can tank like a cruiser - while their DPS is still off the chart.
IMHO their DPS is almost OK... a little balance is needed, but hey... escorts are glass cannons. They simply should be a little more glassy.
FAW was fixed a couple months ago I think, and also rumor has it there is a bug that causes beams to gain more damage from overcapped weapons power. So FAW cruisers parse the highest DPS now normally. Lots of situations its good, but highest DPS parse isn't always most effective DPS. My DHC builds always parse lower then my FAW builds, but I still find effective as I burst single targets down much faster, so there is less chance for them to heal or regen or move out of range, something more important now with spheres using epte. Its hard to test, but I would like to know some kind of numbers showing how effective the DPS of FAW spam is, how much of that high dps is being healed due to individual targets not dying fast enough.
In general though, burst is not DPS. It's damage. DPS is an over time measure.
It's pretty common in RPGs to have both burst and DPS be viable competing approaches for different classes.
The biggest thing throwing me off is that I'm conditioned to expect durable RPG classes to do high burst and lower sustained damage and soft RPG classes to do high sustained damage but in burst.
That's been changing even in fantasy games though and even then escorts are not really low survivability.
In fact, I actually think it would be IP appropriate going forward if the systems teams re-evaluated things so that escorts are the tanks (with an evasion tank focus) and are burst damage oriented while cruisers have higher damage over time and are healers. People want damage dealing cruisers and saddling them with tank and healer is too much if damage is also good.
It would mean:
- a continued focus on cruiser sustained damage
- not nerfing cannons but not improving them at the same rate
- making the main focus of tanking into evasion
If you think about it in an IP sense, the big ships ARE damage powerhouses. And it isn't the big ships' captains that say, "I'm going to draw their fire away." It's the little ships' captains that do.
It would make a lot of sense to me actually if you have science as control (they do need more love, mind you), escorts as bursty tanks, and cruisers as higher sustained damage heal machines.
That means some changes to aggro mechanics and more emphasis on dodge; they need to tune STF enemies' attacks to be weaker against high dodge players than shields or hull as defenses.
I don't think they do much aggro weighting either. It's basically just damage as modified by one skill and threat consoles. They need to adjust this to make sustained or rapid fire do less aggro than burst. This should be accomplished in part by giving aggro a rapid rate of decay and having crits or higher hits generate disproportionately more aggro.
Probably should also adjust the tanking skill to add turnrate and dodge.
Seems like a more sensible tradeoff to me. The maneuverable one is the tank. In a sense, it's a move away from fantasy trinity system to what I call "Scooby Doo tanking" (Ie. you get the weak, nimble one to distract the monster while their allies lay a trap) as opposed to fantasy tanking (where the durable one distracts the monster while their scrawny allies lay a trap).
Me (bone ugly) & OP are both from dps-11.000, there is a whole channel that does damage like that (11.000 dps in ISE, to get in).
That's not what I am saying. What I mean is, everything else, damage, healing, base damage, spam, all looks the same. But out of hundreds and hundreds of STF's that I have run, I have never seen numbers that high on anyone. There was even a big hub bub a few months back which someone posting an identical build who broke 9k DPS and everyone called BS on him until he posted a vid.
I am not saying its wrong, nor am I going "omgwtf, how are you doing that much damage!" I see the numbers, I see the build, I run a very similar build. I just cannot figure out how running the same build, my numbers are around the 8-9k DPS mark, but those are double that. I realize this opens up the possibility of a plethora of replies along the lines of "L2P", or "its because you suck", but that is not the case and I am just trying to understand what is going on here. SOMETHING is off. Even on incredibly fast runs, in the neighborhood of 4-5 minutes, I have never seen anything higher than 9k DPS.
Let me be clear though, I am not disagreeing with you that beams are decent. They do not suck anymore, as something seems to have changed with LoR. They went from slightly tickling someones shields in PvP, to completely devastating in what seems like overnight.
You guys are either just spamming FAW CONSTANTLY, even when its not very advantages to do so (aside from inflating DPS numbers), or I do not have ACT set up properly, which is entirely possible because it was a pain in the TRIBBLE to get going, and I just kind of fiddled around with it until it worked.
You guys are either just spamming FAW CONSTANTLY, even when its not very advantages to do so (aside from inflating DPS numbers),.
thats the idea
plus there is a lot of movement and positioning, that you just have to learn, or see. but yeah, use every available power at your hand, every time its available, and you gonna have high dps
I am not saying its wrong, nor am I going "omgwtf, how are you doing that much damage!" I see the numbers, I see the build, I run a very similar build. I just cannot figure out how running the same build, my numbers are around the 8-9k DPS mark, but those are double that. I realize this opens up the possibility of a plethora of replies along the lines of "L2P", or "its because you suck", but that is not the case and I am just trying to understand what is going on here. SOMETHING is off. Even on incredibly fast runs, in the neighborhood of 4-5 minutes, I have never seen anything higher than 9k DPS.
Would you care to run some STFs with me and some of us from the DPS11k channel? I can show you some beam boats, and some cannon setups that do over 20k.
You can parse for yourself
If you're interested send me a friend request/message ingame @mikehadfield
Sounds to me like you just don't run with min/maxers. When I used to run with ESTF lot, I never saw a parse higher than 9k.
Everyone keeps going on about how beams are underpowered and all the devs care about are escorts and cannons.
Not true. (In PvE, at least)
I got sick of my Kumari, fancied a change of pace for STFs. Decided to build a pewpew cruiser, so I set one up and took it into some STFs. First set didn't go so brilliantly, about 14k DPS. Not used to this playstyle at all, so I reworked the bridge officer slots, and had another go. Hit 19.7k and didn't even feel like I flew that well. There's more to come from this build, a LOT more.
Frankly I was pretty shocked, I believed the hype, but it was wrong! I'm going to push this up to 25k and laugh in the face of all the kumaris.
So yeah, can we stop with the "beams suck, nerf cannons" threads now?
Please bear in mind, I have been flying nothing but escorts for at least 8 months. It's a hugely different playstyle and I'm still not used to flying this monster of a cruiser yet, so I'm sure in a few weeks my DPS numbers will be a lot higher - but it's a pretty damn good starting point!
Obviously, also worth mentioning this is a useless PvP build, but I know beams are viable in PvP also!
*Note on the video: I flew like **** but still managed 17k. Included the parse and a quick breakdown after the match*
*EDIT: Just ran a CSE with this build, WITHOUT technicians or DEM doff (I was still running my no win scenario doffs from a previous farming run. 2 AP doffs, energy weaps, deflector and gravametric. All completely useless doffs. STILL did 15k DPS*
Everything is good and nice when you are Tactical officer...
Next time try to do that with Engineer or Science officer.
Everything is good and nice when you are Tactical officer...
Next time try to do that with Engineer or Science officer.
The point is, however, that it is claimed that cruisers and beams simply cannot compete with escorts and cannons. It's not "beams are weak UNLESS you're a Tac captain" - it's just "beams are weak".
Which contention has been pretty thoroughly blown out of the quadrant here.
That's not what I am saying. What I mean is, everything else, damage, healing, base damage, spam, all looks the same. But out of hundreds and hundreds of STF's that I have run, I have never seen numbers that high on anyone. There was even a big hub bub a few months back which someone posting an identical build who broke 9k DPS and everyone called BS on him until he posted a vid.
I am not saying its wrong, nor am I going "omgwtf, how are you doing that much damage!" I see the numbers, I see the build, I run a very similar build. I just cannot figure out how running the same build, my numbers are around the 8-9k DPS mark, but those are double that. I realize this opens up the possibility of a plethora of replies along the lines of "L2P", or "its because you suck", but that is not the case and I am just trying to understand what is going on here. SOMETHING is off. Even on incredibly fast runs, in the neighborhood of 4-5 minutes, I have never seen anything higher than 9k DPS.
Let me be clear though, I am not disagreeing with you that beams are decent. They do not suck anymore, as something seems to have changed with LoR. They went from slightly tickling someones shields in PvP, to completely devastating in what seems like overnight.
You guys are either just spamming FAW CONSTANTLY, even when its not very advantages to do so (aside from inflating DPS numbers), or I do not have ACT set up properly, which is entirely possible because it was a pain in the TRIBBLE to get going, and I just kind of fiddled around with it until it worked.
An ISE under 5 minutes means someone on the team is doing over 10k damage because you need over 50k team DPS to achieve it.
Everything is good and nice when you are Tactical officer...
Next time try to do that with Engineer or Science officer.
I've already discussed this in the thread so far.
Engineers are the weakest in space in terms of DPS, this is very much true. They don't have APA or TI - but they have that seriously OP miracle worker trait that gives you back to back miracle workers and slashes the cooldown. If you die as an engineer now, you're doing something wrong. No, you won't be able to match a Tacs DPS but you will have a million times it's survivability. That kind of makes sense. I'm sure I could pull 15k on an engineer, but I can't test it as I'm not grinding another 200k dil for weapons.
Science officers are pretty decent in space, and I've seen science officers do over 20k in STFs. It's more than doable if you set your mind to it.
The question is though, if you're shooting for seriously high DPS numbers not just roll a damn tac?
The point is, however, that it is claimed that cruisers and beams simply cannot compete with escorts and cannons. It's not "beams are weak UNLESS you're a Tac captain" - it's just "beams are weak".
Which contention has been pretty thoroughly blown out of the quadrant here.
Thing is both of those ships with both of those parses are garbage parses with inflated stats that don't really help with the actual encounter.
Doing tons of DPS to the nanite generators that are still regenerating is useless.
Glad you and the CSV dooders parse well. Hope it helps your confidence and all. But meh, it's not really saying much to anyone about anything.
This isn't what I fly regularly, I just did it to prove a point. I generally fly a CRF Kumari which parses around 16k because I find it the most fun, rewarding, and useful.
Here we go again, another thread about how beams work great only and I emphasize only when you use the plasma rom kit setup which everyone knows is the only one that does that because of it's plasma exotic damage boost. HoTs always increase DPS. So try that with a phaser set. Go ahead. We'll wait. I bet you you'll never see the DPS with phasers you see with the rom plasma gear because there is no exotic damage with phasers.
Which is basically the problem with all beam only ships most noteably science ships (the many that have no cannon options).
Sad that they have the bonus to exotic damage space trait but there's only 1 set of beams that does exotic damage at all! Even the shield procs and the weapon drain procs don't get any benefit from this trait.
So really, show us another build on a cruiser using one of the non-plasma non-nanite enhanced beams and we'll talk. Until then just know that you are wrong and we are right when it comes to the serious DPS loss from using beam only ships.
Comments
How is BO broken? I've been using it this whole time, but if it's TRIBBLE, I'll wanna know if I should switch it out.
"There are three things to remember about being a starship captain:
keep your shirt tucked in, go down with the ship, and never abandon a member of your crew."
- Kathryn Janeway
technicians are 4-5 million actually, warp core doff can be blue, and the 5th is optional anyway...i use "LAW"
now on the other side, what doffs that actaully do something are cheaper? Damage controle? Conn for tac team reduction?
there are no cheap doffs that actually are worth using
So basically all you said above is this...
"Cruisers... your job is to heal escorts"
Riiiiiiiight....
Purrllleeeease. Technicians are FREE from support missions (Support B'Tran) I have loads of them.
The only two "expensive" doffs I have are the space warfare specialist and Marion. Space warfare specialist isn't that expensive, and Marion is going up in price but you can still pick him up for 20m if you hawk the exchange.
Seriously, go and learn how to run minefield. One good lucky run is 8-10m EC. Run it on a KDF and you'll be swimming in money from double rewards, plus you can earn your daily dil refinement in 8 runs. Takes 5-10 mins tops.
As for Cannons > Beams. I tend to agree with you, I prefer the escort playstyle and I prefer CRF over BFAW. That's personal PREFERENCE, not pure numbers. As I have demonstrated.
One million EC is absolutely nothing. You can get 600-800k just from three minutes of foundry abuse. With doffing and minefield, I tend to pull in about 20m per week. That's maybe 1 hour per day, 3 hours on weekends tops.
Rest of my gametime is spent running STFs and No-Win. Seriously, EC is pitifully easy to earn in this game!
Kirk's Protege.
Of course not, happy to share. Here is my build, I'll also stick it in the OP.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=jadsregent_0
Kirk's Protege.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4voPTaREwI
Kirk's Protege.
i would also argue that the DEM doff (marion) is actually having any effect...i don't use it, and even run energy weapons at 85 and hardly ever drop below 115 power...and when it drops either a AUX2BATT, or EPtW (or a warpcore proc from EPtS or EPtA) is ready
with better timeing you can do without, that is for sure...i mean it worked perfectly before that doff existed anyway.
but you can see the difference...with my engi at 10% crit chance and no crtH mod on the weapons, i hardly ever see crits...and when i crit, hardly ever one above 3k. With a tac that is a completely different story apparently. The weapons alone have 4% crit each...
need to build an aux2batt scimitar with my rom tac, that one has nearly 20% crit unbuffed.
nice video btw. nice quality.
Really ?
Soooo a Tac can do the same amount of damage in a Defiant , Odyssey and a D'Kyr ?
See from my POV , BOF stations & ship slots do determine the amount of DPS you can muster .
No , that's just you putting words in my mouth .
I spoke of FAW and FAW alone , and it seems that you had nothing next to nothing to reply .
Twisting once again .
Just to be clear -- things that don't get damaged should not count on a parser (yet they do) .
As in : I can enter ISE , go up to the gate and FAW it all day long , but as long as the transformers are up that don't mean Jack .
That kind of futile pew pew should not be counted , and I believe I gave other examples as well of what is equally futile .
I't not about things that heal themselves , it's about things the game does not **** as damage .
Yeah , that is a real eye opener there ... , you've suddenly made me understand everything . :rolleyes:
What can I say , you are truly exploring the final frontier ... , the only frontier left to explore in this game ... -- the frontier of cheese .
And thanks to the Doff system & the consoles , you still have something interesting to play with ... even if at the end of the day while your combination may be ever growing , the content in which you get to explore your new heights of DPS is quite stale .
Also - 1:22 is because I used Tac Initiative, NOT because of A2B. Still a vaild point though!
Fair point, might test with/without to see if I can notice any appreciable difference.
Yeah, this is true. APA3 does wonders for crits.
Ty sir
Kirk's Protege.
I think the problem is still Escorts and the weapons they use, namely, DHCs. There is one thing with DHCs that I have always considered to be broken, and that is the -12 power drain. This number should be higher, at least -14 drain. Why do I say this? Well...a single cannon has a drain of -10. In all logic, why would a dual cannon (which, in theory is two single cannons taped together) have the same amount of drain as a single cannon. On top of this, why should a heavy version of two single cannons taped together only have a drain of -12? It doesn't make sense. If anything, it should break down like this:
Turrets: -8 - LOWEST DPS
SC: -8
DC: -10
DHC: -14 - HIGHEST DPS
I even put my neck out in zone chat, and asked if there is even an Escort captain that runs DCs...and I was met with 16 different responses along the lines of "Never run DCs when you can run DHCs". It is clear that any Escort Captain knows DHCs is better that DCs for a number of reasons. The fact is, DHCs are preferred and, as it stands, the extra -2 drain is meaningless. DHCs need more drain in order to both diversify the Escort build, give value to DCs and SCs on escorts, and bring the Escort down a notch.
If DHCs had more drain, they would be for the Escort Jocks who love to top off their weapon settings, while DCs should be created for the equal share people who like to spread the power around a little.
This is just my opinion.
[P]V'iv: 21790 DPS, [P]Povius: 15798 DPS, [P]Jad: 15295 DPS, [P]R'ednek: 13761 DPS, [P]Jacklyn: 12474 DPS
V'iv is trying out a similar build. Encounter time was 2 minutes 32 seconds. The carrier died in 17 seconds which I think is a new record for our channel
Carrier only numbers for people saying this has 4-5k single target damage.
[P]V'iv: 22754 DPS,
[P]Jad: 20295 DPS,
[P]Povius: 19290 DPS,
Assimilated Car: 15383 DPS,
[P]Jacklyn: 15153 DPS,
[P]R'ednek: 11108 DPS
Well, for 17 seconds anyway.
Kirk's Protege.
Thanks , but I have more fun helping out the noobs and crunching numbers & parsers were never my thing .
I have ran a few times with more "pro" players from the STFRaiders channel (with Branflakes & Azurian among others) but I found the experience too "mechanical" for my liking .
No one got in trouble , no one needed help , and in a way it was about what I perceived as "the excellence of execution" rather then fun .
(for all I know that is fun for some , I'm trying not to be judgy .
So while the Elite_STF channel is bleeding players and the PublicEliteSTF channel is picking up players , I still find it a bit sad that more and more of the better players choose to wall themselfs off from the "general population" with more and more obscure STF channels .
All this is a far cry from when we all hanged out in Gamma Orianis and shouted in zone chat for more players to get a match going ... , and I can't help but to wonder if the PVP community would have behaved with the divisiveness that the STF community is currently behaving -- would we still have a PVP community ?
Yeah .... ummm , no thanks . :P
I can see that completely. For me, I've run them so many times now (Must be over a thousand) I just find if I run with extremely good players and only take 3-4 minutes per STF, I can just sit down for an hour, run them on all my toons and be done with the dil grind to leave me free to do other, more pleasurable, stuff.
The min-maxing number crunching stuff I don't do very often, only when I get sick of my build and decide it's time for a new one. Not really my idea of run either. It's all passing time until a no-win-scenario group forms.
Good, I'm glad that ESTF is bleeding players. The admins are all uptight, whiny, militant, power-hungry ***holes who have no respect for anyone but themselves. It's pretty staggering how bad that channel has become over the past 6 months.
Back in the days *gets nostalgic* before STFs were solved content. When we hadn't all run THE SAME MISSION a billion times over, it made sense. It was fun, exciting, adventurous - but given that it's gotten a bit stale, all we want to do is get the rewards. We try and make it fun by chasing optional timers and crunching numbers, but that's only because the actual content itself is so incredibly mind-numbingly face-mashingly boring now.
Gone way off topic now
Kirk's Protege.
Anyways, I played the old "Nintendo Hard" version of "Devil's Choice". Dragon flagship builds were the only thing that could reliably stand up to the punishment the Elachi were capable of dishing out while retaliating with effective fire.
My character Tsin'xing
Agreed.
Also, escorts' tanking abilities should be destroyed completely. I can see escorts who can tank like a cruiser - while their DPS is still off the chart.
IMHO their DPS is almost OK... a little balance is needed, but hey... escorts are glass cannons. They simply should be a little more glassy.
In general though, burst is not DPS. It's damage. DPS is an over time measure.
It's pretty common in RPGs to have both burst and DPS be viable competing approaches for different classes.
The biggest thing throwing me off is that I'm conditioned to expect durable RPG classes to do high burst and lower sustained damage and soft RPG classes to do high sustained damage but in burst.
That's been changing even in fantasy games though and even then escorts are not really low survivability.
In fact, I actually think it would be IP appropriate going forward if the systems teams re-evaluated things so that escorts are the tanks (with an evasion tank focus) and are burst damage oriented while cruisers have higher damage over time and are healers. People want damage dealing cruisers and saddling them with tank and healer is too much if damage is also good.
It would mean:
- a continued focus on cruiser sustained damage
- not nerfing cannons but not improving them at the same rate
- making the main focus of tanking into evasion
If you think about it in an IP sense, the big ships ARE damage powerhouses. And it isn't the big ships' captains that say, "I'm going to draw their fire away." It's the little ships' captains that do.
It would make a lot of sense to me actually if you have science as control (they do need more love, mind you), escorts as bursty tanks, and cruisers as higher sustained damage heal machines.
That means some changes to aggro mechanics and more emphasis on dodge; they need to tune STF enemies' attacks to be weaker against high dodge players than shields or hull as defenses.
I don't think they do much aggro weighting either. It's basically just damage as modified by one skill and threat consoles. They need to adjust this to make sustained or rapid fire do less aggro than burst. This should be accomplished in part by giving aggro a rapid rate of decay and having crits or higher hits generate disproportionately more aggro.
Probably should also adjust the tanking skill to add turnrate and dodge.
Seems like a more sensible tradeoff to me. The maneuverable one is the tank. In a sense, it's a move away from fantasy trinity system to what I call "Scooby Doo tanking" (Ie. you get the weak, nimble one to distract the monster while their allies lay a trap) as opposed to fantasy tanking (where the durable one distracts the monster while their scrawny allies lay a trap).
SAY IT AIN'T SO!
Try the same build with an Eng and see what happens. A Tac can make anything pump out high DPS, especially with FAW.
That's not what I am saying. What I mean is, everything else, damage, healing, base damage, spam, all looks the same. But out of hundreds and hundreds of STF's that I have run, I have never seen numbers that high on anyone. There was even a big hub bub a few months back which someone posting an identical build who broke 9k DPS and everyone called BS on him until he posted a vid.
I am not saying its wrong, nor am I going "omgwtf, how are you doing that much damage!" I see the numbers, I see the build, I run a very similar build. I just cannot figure out how running the same build, my numbers are around the 8-9k DPS mark, but those are double that. I realize this opens up the possibility of a plethora of replies along the lines of "L2P", or "its because you suck", but that is not the case and I am just trying to understand what is going on here. SOMETHING is off. Even on incredibly fast runs, in the neighborhood of 4-5 minutes, I have never seen anything higher than 9k DPS.
Let me be clear though, I am not disagreeing with you that beams are decent. They do not suck anymore, as something seems to have changed with LoR. They went from slightly tickling someones shields in PvP, to completely devastating in what seems like overnight.
You guys are either just spamming FAW CONSTANTLY, even when its not very advantages to do so (aside from inflating DPS numbers), or I do not have ACT set up properly, which is entirely possible because it was a pain in the TRIBBLE to get going, and I just kind of fiddled around with it until it worked.
thats the idea
plus there is a lot of movement and positioning, that you just have to learn, or see. but yeah, use every available power at your hand, every time its available, and you gonna have high dps
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
Would you care to run some STFs with me and some of us from the DPS11k channel? I can show you some beam boats, and some cannon setups that do over 20k.
You can parse for yourself
If you're interested send me a friend request/message ingame @mikehadfield
Sounds to me like you just don't run with min/maxers. When I used to run with ESTF lot, I never saw a parse higher than 9k.
Kirk's Protege.
Everything is good and nice when you are Tactical officer...
Next time try to do that with Engineer or Science officer.
Which contention has been pretty thoroughly blown out of the quadrant here.
An ISE under 5 minutes means someone on the team is doing over 10k damage because you need over 50k team DPS to achieve it.
I've already discussed this in the thread so far.
Engineers are the weakest in space in terms of DPS, this is very much true. They don't have APA or TI - but they have that seriously OP miracle worker trait that gives you back to back miracle workers and slashes the cooldown. If you die as an engineer now, you're doing something wrong. No, you won't be able to match a Tacs DPS but you will have a million times it's survivability. That kind of makes sense. I'm sure I could pull 15k on an engineer, but I can't test it as I'm not grinding another 200k dil for weapons.
Science officers are pretty decent in space, and I've seen science officers do over 20k in STFs. It's more than doable if you set your mind to it.
The question is though, if you're shooting for seriously high DPS numbers not just roll a damn tac?
Kirk's Protege.
Thing is both of those ships with both of those parses are garbage parses with inflated stats that don't really help with the actual encounter.
Doing tons of DPS to the nanite generators that are still regenerating is useless.
Glad you and the CSV dooders parse well. Hope it helps your confidence and all. But meh, it's not really saying much to anyone about anything.
Pound for Pound, beams are weak.
That's the game's mechanics at work.
This isn't what I fly regularly, I just did it to prove a point. I generally fly a CRF Kumari which parses around 16k because I find it the most fun, rewarding, and useful.
Kirk's Protege.
fin packet sent..
cause sometimes its party time!
Which is basically the problem with all beam only ships most noteably science ships (the many that have no cannon options).
Sad that they have the bonus to exotic damage space trait but there's only 1 set of beams that does exotic damage at all! Even the shield procs and the weapon drain procs don't get any benefit from this trait.
So really, show us another build on a cruiser using one of the non-plasma non-nanite enhanced beams and we'll talk. Until then just know that you are wrong and we are right when it comes to the serious DPS loss from using beam only ships.