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Finally a D'deridex Commander
malakhglitch
Member Posts: 55 Arc User
I have always been a slow leveler and now I finally got to fly my D'deridex (actually a D'ridthau skinned as a D'deridex).
First off there is most definitely a paradigm shift when flying this ship. Hence the popular "space turtle" nickname. To test it out I replayed the "Smash and Grab" mission and died several times during the course of the mission, so I changed tactics and weapon configurations; I installed 3 beam weapons at the fore with one plasma torpedo and all my aft weapons to turrets. I also changed my BOff skills. Then I went to try out Smash and Grab again and this time I did not come close to dying.
So while it was a paradigm shift it wasn't nearly as bad as some have portrayed it to be. You just need to adapt.
First off there is most definitely a paradigm shift when flying this ship. Hence the popular "space turtle" nickname. To test it out I replayed the "Smash and Grab" mission and died several times during the course of the mission, so I changed tactics and weapon configurations; I installed 3 beam weapons at the fore with one plasma torpedo and all my aft weapons to turrets. I also changed my BOff skills. Then I went to try out Smash and Grab again and this time I did not come close to dying.
So while it was a paradigm shift it wasn't nearly as bad as some have portrayed it to be. You just need to adapt.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by malakhglitch on
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^ Lol... I fitted mine with rear turrets and all beams up front.. damn thing is just... sloooowww. But cool looking.
So.... what was your previous layout that got you repeatedly whacked?
yes, it could use an universal lt.cmdr seat, or 4 fore, 4 aft weapons, and the ha'feh is a better version of the same layout, so literally NOBODY needs to fly the D'D,
but i think ill lvl a separate toon JUST for this ship, cause it is simply adorable.
still not sure what is better in the fore : DBB or DHC
opinions?
the only thing is that the Tactical slots on the D'D are very limited and having cannons (DHC) means having Cannon skills which also affect the turrets.
Beam skills don't.
or am i being completely wrong here?
yeah, that is my dilemma .
having 3 DHC + 2 turrets at the effective side is nice. then, a fore and aft torpedo...
or
effective 3 DBB fore or 3 beams aft. arcs not overlapping.
or
4 DBB fore + 2 turrets aft + a nice torp aft
DHC + turrets works great if you're flying a ship with a turn rate that enables you to keep the target within that 45-degree arc most of the time, because then the turrets are serving as a boost to your frontal firing arc.
However, the D'Deridex is a cruiser, not an escort, and it doesn't turn like one. While it could use a SMALL boost to it's turn rate, like 1 or 2, that will never happen because of people who fly off the handle and see ANY request at a turn rate boost as an attempt to make cruisers turn like escorts because they don't want their e-peen threatened. As such, you need to build accordingly. DHCs will do fine for STFs, where targets don't move (I ran DHCs and turrets on my JHDC just fine), but for anything else, you just can't keep your guns on target well enough to really do well.
It's true that DBB fore and beam arrays aft don't overlap, so there's no broadsiding, and if you're used to turrets supplementing your forward DHCs, this takes a mindset change. Your aft weapons are not there to supplement your forward weapons. You're a battlecruiser, not a dogfighter. Don't try to zip around the enemy, let them break against you like waves on the rocks. You drive right through the center of the enemy formation, your DBBs and torp spread blazing. They can't stop you. Their formation splits as you charge right through them, they think they're safe because they're out of your firing arc, and against any other ship, they would be. You, however, have beam arrays fitting aft, which take over and continue to lance out at them as they pass you, now caught in the caustic clouds of your ejected warp plasma. Their systems are critical, shields down, hull in shambles, klaxxons blaring as they finally come around to exact vengeance upon you...but you're already gone. You've cloaked and are setting up for another pass to mop up any survivors.
I DEMAND A VIDEO WITH EPIC MUSIC!
Or else it didn't happen :P
You made an everyday fight sound amazing, now it must be documented to the sound of an angelic choir!
I had 2 beam arrays, 1 cannon and a torpedo fore and 2 turrets and a torpedo aft The turning speed got to me and I tried to fly it like I did a science ship, which it wasn't.
Creative use of the D'ridthau console and cloak proved to be the key for me as I have suspected it would be. That and using 1/4th impulse instead of 1/2 in combat.
I also switched Tovan from BFaW and CRfire to TT1 and Beam Overload.
Yep! If I want to fly a D'deridex, which I most definitely do, then I will have to just deal.
Yes, it was a touch on the dramatic side, but quite true. Although in my case I uncloak in front of them reduced to 1/4th impulse and just blast away with overcharged beams only to phase and cloak when they are starting to break. When they have regrouped I do it again.
you know i've been maining a sci GW3, TBR torpedo b'rel the whole time so now the jump to a D'D is a main redesign issue for my brains
i also have a PVE kar'fi where my DBB's with fire at will DID some major dmg..
thank you for this wonderful picture, makes me wanna try that!
Long live the Tal Shiar, Long Live Sela!
Well of course he would! Especially if he had both the D'ridthau and the D'deridex universal consoles. Now imagine his turn rate when cloaked...
The only suggestion I would have to make the D'D better is to give it a universal Lt. Cmdr slot instead of the current second eng slot. I would not touch anything else about it. But I guess the C-Store version solves this issue. Personally, given the limited number of Romulan options, I think all the ships should come with one or more universal boff slots to allow for a broader play style.
That said, the trick to the D'D is to intelligently cloak if you are trying to do a DHC/DC build, or a torpboat. It is also a very capable beam boat or "space turtle" tank. If you try to play it like an escort, you will fail, but why should that be a surprise?
Totally agree. The Molecular Phase Inverter from the D'ridthau works wonders when thrown into the mix. Being almost totally immune to damage and having no collision allows for a great opportunity to cloak while in a heated battle.
The easiest, most straight forward route for the Cmdr D'Deridex is an All Beam Array Boat. Cram an RCS Console for making the turns easier, which isn't as much required with the wide arcs offered by Beam Arrays.
You can also opt with the DBB's up front. They have a wider arc than DHCs, and will still benefit from the "cheaper" beam TAC skills. If you want a narrower arc weapon though, I suggest a 2nd RCS Console, and / or adding Aux2 Inertial Dampers for not only resists, but a massive turn rate boost that lasts more than long enough to position your ship for better firing position.
I took FAW1 and 2 for the tac skills. The idea was to find the biggest cluster of enemies and spam the living bejeezus out of everything within weapons range using FAW. I didn't require torpedoes at all, so the need for a great turn rate wasn't as big an issue. Shield adjustments? Constantly done with the manual Distribute Shield Strength to even out, or focus on a particular facing. EPTS 2 & 3 was easily crammed into the build, as well as Engineering Team. Since I had no Tac Team, there was no TT+ET conflicting cooldown. Between ET and Hazard Emitters 2, and EPTS2/3, hull and shield repairs were well covered in any occasion.
It worked out very well and it was easy for Commander. With better captain skills, it of course made it alot smoother. I took that Cmdr level D'Deridex to Lv50 with no problems whatsoever.
The C-Store Refit version at Cmdr though is a different story. I'd take that Universal LT slot for TAC quickly. Your options open up a whole lot more, and the possiblity of doubling CRF or CSV are immediately available. Or you can still focus on beams / beams & torps, but taking advantage of that Lt Universal for more torp / beam skills. Or you can cram Torpedo Abilities in there as well. Like I said, alot more offensive options than the regular Cmdr version.
true, but with the right weapons and right BOFFs/DOFFs you are ready for an alpha strike and decloak action, in which case you don't need so many Tac boff skills, and can use the lt.cmdr spot for a sci, which means heals, and an occasional TBR rid-off the pet/mines/torp spam.
Best part about your main being a Fed Engi:
You know about cruisers. You know about beams. You know how to use both (hopefully).
Advantage? The switch from the Mogai to the D'd isn't as painful. I just took a look at my new ship, and then proceeded to remove all of my cannons from my Mogai, sell them, and then get beams for my D'd. Still run a torp up front, since it's great for the decloak, but on the Cmdr level D'd, you don't run cannons. Or you can, but it's going to be unpleasant for you. The turn rate is brutally low (until you cloak, then you are so nimble it's not even funny), but if you run beams it's not as horribly painful to fight.
Like stated earlier, the C-store refit, and Fleet refit are completely different matters, but on the freebie level 30 version, just run beams and level as fast as you can til you can get one of the Ha'(insert suffix here) warbirds.
Ensign Engineering
EPtW 1
Ensign Tactical
TT 1
Lt. Commander Tactical
TT1, BFAW 2, (BO 3 or CRF 3)
Commander Engineering
EPtW 1, RSP 1, EPtS 3, AtSIF 3
Lt. Commander Science
HE 1, TSS 2, PH 3
I will probably be running with 3 beam arrays and 1 torpedo up front and 4 turrets in the rear until I get Rep gear.
Any nuggets of wisdom? I am especially torn with what to do with my Lt. Comm Tac slot.
By the way, these for the future since I don't have the BOffs that can train those Lt. Comm abilities yet.
How well does a single purple Mk Xi RCS console effect its turnrate?
Is it good enough for STFs with cannons, or is it too slow?
If I was flying the D'deridex Retrofit, here's what I would run:
LtCmdr Tac: TT1, BFAW2, APB2
Ens Tac: TT1/TS1 (if you have conn officer Doffs, I would recommend a torp spread)
Cmdr Engi: ET1, EPtW2, EPtS3, Aux2SIF3
Ens Engi: EPtS1
LtCmdr Sci: HE1, TSS2, GW1
Reasons:
TT1 is a bread and butter ability. You use it for when you need protecting. Why then did I put the ET1? In case you aren't under fire you can heal an ally, or if your shields are gone and not coming back anytime soon (tholians and their tetryon) you can heal your hull up. BFAW2 is for your BAs, and the APB2 is just a damage multiplier.
The EPtX abilities are there to give you balanced offense and defense, but I would recommend combining them with at least blue Damage control engi DOffs.
The HE1 and TSS2 are for survival, and the GW1 is to make things stop moving so you can hit them more easily, since the D'D still has a horrible turn rate when decloaked.
As for weapons, I would actually run 3 BAs + 1 torp front, and 3 BAs + KCB on the rear, not turrets, since turrets don't benefit from BFAW. But I just converted your ship to a pure beamboat, which I don't know if you were looking for that. But that's my "nugget of wisdom" XD.
However, an alternate is you can make the D'deridex a single cannon boat, and use it for long passes (decloak, fly through firing, recloak), and still have a good firing arc. If that were the case, I would leave everything but the tac skills the same. I would alter the tac as follows:
LtCmdr Tac: TT1, CRF1/CSV1, CRF2/CSV2
Ens Tac: TT1/TS1 (again, if you have conn officer DOffs, I would use a TS here)
If you want AoE, use CSV, if you want a single target dead, use CRF. I would run 3 single cannons + 1 torp front, 3 turrets + KCB rear. OR you can use DHCs, but I would recommend against that, since again, the D'Deridex is not known for it's turn rate, even though the GW1 will help with that.
Another nugget of wisdom XD.
Yeah I was thinking about a pure beam boat or a pure cannon boat also. I do not know how fast I will be able to grind the Rep items and I am currently fleetless so I am thinking about using what I can get via Episode replays.
Depending on how much you've skilled into impulse thrusters, one mk XI purple RCS console would probably get you into the 7-8 deg/sec range on the DD.
I've been doing a lot of experimentation with my fleet DD (5.5 turn vs 5.0 on the retrofit) over the past several days, trying to see how fast I can get it to turn. With the helmsman trait (+10% turn), the DD Retro and Dridthau consoles installed (+2 deg/sec turn), 9 points skilled into impulse thrusters, an elite fleet turnx2 engine and three blue Mk XI RCS consoles (+35% turn each) equipped I can get the big DD up to about 16-17 deg/sec. I could further improve upon that by filling all of my eng slots with purple Mk XII RCS consoles and equipping a turnx3 engine instead of a turnx2, which would probably get me 20+ deg/sec. This was all done at ~50 engine power. You can make the thing turn, but you're going to be burning up a lot of your console space in order to do so. As soon as I can stomach the cost for purchasing 4 Mk XII purple RCS consoles I'll try them out. Need to experiment with more engine types as well. I want to find the upper limit of what the DD can do.
The key is to slot an engi ensign power as Emergency to Engines 1 and if you can afford it, Helmsman trait.
Doing that should give you near constant uptime with power to engines and evasive manuvers for your turning and allow you to slot better consoles than turn rate boosts.
That little setup is more than enough to make your DD turn. It won't be winning any dog fights against escorts but it will be giving you the abilities you need in PvP to wiggle and more than enough movement in PvE to keep on target with DHC's.
If you want it to move like an escort in a cruiser shell however you should get an escort. You can never crank its turn rate high enough to beat an escort at its core strengths.
First thing: I assume you are aware that you can get tighter-seeming turns at lower throttle levels, including when turning in reverse.
Second thing: do you have the Refit as well? The two-console bonus is really worth it, in that it flat adds turn and it adds engine power (which adds a touch of turn).
With nothing active, the D'D-Retro is slow to turn, yes. A single XI RCS console though on top of the two-piece set pushes it into the same range as the KDF Battle Cruisers. Actually, it handles a lot like an unboosted Orb Weaver with those three. You can get the same from two XI RCS consoles, but I'm partial to the Phase Cloak and the "Everyone out of my way!" button.
But the cloak alone makes it turn pretty well, as does the D'Rid's Phase cloak. Hit Evasive, and it spins like a top. Use one of the ENG slots for EPtE or A2ID* and it can spot turn pretty much whenever you like.
Some anecdata: (56/15 Power; 9/9 Engine, 0/9 Impulse, Jem'Hadar set - respec overdue):
Two-set + Green XI RCS: 11.2
A2ID (36 Aux): 14.1
Phase Console: 21
Phase + A2ID: 24.1
Battle Cloak: 24.4
Evasive: 33.2
Cloak + A2ID: 36.0
Phase + Cloak: 46.0
Phase + Cloak + A2ID: 48.9
Other ships I can put hands on:
Orb Weaver (50/25 Power, 3/9 Engines, 6/9 Impulse, KHG XII): 16.7
Armitage (53/25 Power, 6/9 Engines, 6/9 Impulse, Borg XI): 27.4
It is not an escort; you have to think ahead about when and how you're turning. And it's a lot better at strafe - cloak - pivot - strafe than an actual escort's constant pressure.
tldr: for endgame PvE, the only thing I've found problematic for DHC facing is freaking shuttlespam in Tau Dewa patrols. Otherwise, it's all tasty food for the Space Turtle.
* I currently like A2ID more for several reasons: I don't have a Damage Control doff; it doesn't step on EPtS cooldowns; A2ID has a faster base cooldown; and I'm often cloaking when I pop it, so the kinetic resist is a nice bonus.
(Ultra Rare) Advanced Engineering RCS Consoles Mk X to Mk XII
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=746101