Just how useful is an ensign tactical power to you? How useful is it when you've got two of them? How useful is it when you have to run three of them and try to manage to make all three feel useful?
That's the problem the Defiant and Armitage have to deal with. They need to get 3 ensign tactical powers running somehow without any of them feeling useless. Some people manage to get to tactical team to run one after the other, but it still leaves the third power in a "I'm probably not going to click on it" limbo.
sounds like your confusing how bad it is to have 3 eng ENS stations with how it is to have 3 tac ENS.
3 tac ENS is not bad, most ships want at least 2. you only cant use 3 tac ENS if you use a 4 DHC build. 2 ENS tacs can give you 2 TT1, for that distribute at the system cooldown, very handy. if you use torps, HY1 is a great skill, that has the most damage per torp of any HY. it crits super hard. BO1 is ok, especially if you have a higher grade BO as well, so you can use it every 15 seconds.
escorts are always gonna want 2 TTs, 2 CFRs, and 2 HY/BO, with at least 1 APO. 3 tac ens can help you do this, your going to be missing one of these somewhere with out that 3rd ENS. even the defiant is fine, you get 2 APOs, with it no prob, wile getting 2 or everything else
there is nothing about the tvaro getting a COM and ENS tac to complain about.
Not confusion so much as me having my own opinion and making it known, just as much as you've made your own known about the D'deridex.
Apparently, I am not the only one... though the degree of acceptance differs. If you see nothing wrong with the T'varo's current arrangement, so much the better for you - at the very least I don't perceive that my suggestion to archoncryptic harms your own interests in the least.
Still, I believe replacing the Ensign Tactical to Ensign Science would make the T'varo a better romulan warbird - not stronger, more over-powered and whatnot... just better. I don't care much for it having Enhanced Battle Cloak, but if it's going to be slated to be a fixed addition to the ship my feeling on the matter is that it should be optimized so in order to give the T'varo warbird an identity further different from the other ship with enhanced battle cloak in the game.
All I can ask from the devs perusing this thread is their consideration. I can believe in things strongly without making it a complaint.
Archon, is anything going to be done with the T'varo and Dhelan's Ens Tac slot?
It really needs to be changed to Ensign Science so we can get a bit more of that sciency warbird flavor without going overboard with the Ensign tactical powers when someone would choose to have the LtC universal station used for tactical.
No I would not like to see this, the new boff layout is fine as it is. The idea behind the new boff and console layout was so we can have a tac focused ship that can lean towards sci just as good as it can go eng. Its as close to a bop as you can get without making everything universal.
The ensign tac is handy when you are using a the uni as sci or eng, and is still useful if you were to use it as tac, another torpedo high yield 1 is always great. Seems like you are basing your opinions off of a setup that uses 4 DHC and no torps, thats not what this ship or enhanced battle cloak is for, do that with another ship like Mogai or Dhelan.
I wish people wouldn't judge right off the bat how I would choose to use it or simply decide they know better. It's fine if you like it and I respect that. It's less fine to just look down on someone and state thier opinion as lacking.
I've seen no indication of what the ship is actually meant to be like. I'm not a mind reader - I don't get to assume correctly what a Dev is thinking when he comes up with a Boff layout. People seem to claim this is an escort - well, while I have some raider expectations from it because they said in one of thier blogs that the T'varo would suit the raider playstyle the closest i don't go with the foregone conclusion that this is going to be used mainly as an escort.
There's one type of ship in the game which are escorts, and in general they belong to the Federation, and have their own playstyle. I don't expect these to play like Federation ships. The singularity power and battle cloaks along say this much to me.
You want to talk Boff layouts, though? I'll oblige. When I look at the T'varo, here's what I picture:
Cmd Tac: Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3 LtC Universal (Tac): Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Torpedo High Yield 3 Ens Tac: (no idea) Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Tractor Beam 2
Here, I'm picturing a spike damage build. Probably PvP oriented, with an armament like antiproton dual beams, dual heavy cannons, quantum torpedoes and turrets out back. Not something that's around to have a firefight so much as uncloak, claim the kill, and withdraw to rinse repeat. I have no clue what I'd want else for my Ens Tac since I already mostly covered my needs in the other two, and Torpedo High Yield 2 even feels a bit superficial so adding another High Yield 1 seems rather redundant and I don't have much use for a Beam Overload 1 - it's not like I'll make a second pass before circumstances (and cooldowns) favor me better.
So, I end up wishing that the Ensign Tac would be an Ensign Sci so I could have a little more of those going around. Maybe I'd keep Tractor Beam at 1 and pick another power like Hazard Emitters 2 for some HoT and extinguish any plasma fires.
Then... let's say I mostly go with the same idea of quick single kill (because I don't see this as a cannon escort), but switch the universal to engineering. I got for more stamina, ways to boost my weapon power to go well with beam overload and some help to ease any escapes.
Cmd Tac: Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3 Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1 Lt Eng: Engineering Team, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 LtC Universal (Eng): Emergency Power to Shields 1, Reverse Shield Polarity, Emergency Power to Weapon 3 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Tractor Beam 2
Or, perhaps, I instead go sciency.
Cmd Tac: Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3 Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1 Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Hazard Emitters 2 LtC Universal (Sci): Tractor Beam 1, Jam Sensors 2, Photonic Shockwave 1
I do end up with a nice bag of tricks but the Ens Tac still has the least presence. If it had been an Ens Sci, I could've fit something like Transfer Shield Strength (which is, IMHO more useful than a second Tac Team).
I can even do another one. Let's say this time, I'm going a bit more DPSy, because I'm just against PvE content. I go back to making the universal station a tactical one, but put in power that take care of larger groups. Maybe even use this for STFs.
Cmd Tac: Beam Fire at Will 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 2, Attack Pattern Omega 3 LtC Universal (Tac): Beam Fire at Will 1, Torpedo Spread 2, Torpedo Spread 3 Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1 Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Hazard Emitters 2
Here, I'm kind of wishing I could've managed to fit Transfer Shield Strength in my science powers, since I'd likely be cloaked significantly less while trying to do a DPS role. I even managed to pair most of my weapon powers, though if I had one less ensign power I'd probably ditch one BFaW in favor of TT1 for the Borg Boarding Party debuff.
* * *
So, overall, this is kind of why I don't see that much usefulness from the Ens Tac station. Kind of like the Defiant and Armitage, it seems annoying to me. It's there, but it doesn't end end being all that well used. That's the beef I have against it.
Also, considering warbirds will be stealthier with higher aux power, it seems to build in a good synergy with science powers. Turning that station into an Ens Sci just seems to play well into the Romulan subterfuge/trickery/science bit better, which is also why I'm advocating it.
Right now isn't bad. Even I can sort of make it work (The LtC universal being turned to science surprised me in its appeal, even). But it doesn't feel ideal for a warbird, which is where I'm trying to come from. And perceptions of 4 DHC escorts didn't even compute in my head, even.
Ok I was mistaken that you were basing your complaints off of trying a 4DHC build with it.
That just makes you more wrong about an ensign tac being useless then because if you are using torps its great, THY1 is very underestimated.
You can just bump THY2 down to 1 its about as good, if it hits unshielded hull it does about as good damage anyway then run another attack pattern, BO, or CRF. Try THY1 out and compare it to THY2 you will be suprised how useful it is and how much options you now have when you find it works just as good for spike. That ensign tac won't look so useless anymore.
sounds like your confusing how bad it is to have 3 eng ENS stations with how it is to have 3 tac ENS.
3 tac ENS is not bad, most ships want at least 2. you only cant use 3 tac ENS if you use a 4 DHC build. 2 ENS tacs can give you 2 TT1, for that distribute at the system cooldown, very handy. if you use torps, HY1 is a great skill, that has the most damage per torp of any HY. it crits super hard. BO1 is ok, especially if you have a higher grade BO as well, so you can use it every 15 seconds.
escorts are always gonna want 2 TTs, 2 CFRs, and 2 HY/BO, with at least 1 APO. 3 tac ens can help you do this, your going to be missing one of these somewhere with out that 3rd ENS. even the defiant is fine, you get 2 APOs, with it no prob, wile getting 2 or everything else
there is nothing about the tvaro getting a COM and ENS tac to complain about.
Except that the PVE crowd generally uses 4 DHCs: 2xTT, 2xRF, 2xAP
The torpedo launchers of the Mogai don't seem to fire straight ahead anymore but downwards at a 30? or so angle.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
I wish people wouldn't judge right off the bat how I would choose to use it or simply decide they know better. It's fine if you like it and I respect that. It's less fine to just look down on someone and state thier opinion as lacking.
I've seen no indication of what the ship is actually meant to be like. I'm not a mind reader - I don't get to assume correctly what a Dev is thinking when he comes up with a Boff layout. People seem to claim this is an escort - well, while I have some raider expectations from it because they said in one of thier blogs that the T'varo would suit the raider playstyle the closest i don't go with the foregone conclusion that this is going to be used mainly as an escort.
There's one type of ship in the game which are escorts, and in general they belong to the Federation, and have their own playstyle. I don't expect these to play like Federation ships. The singularity power and battle cloaks along say this much to me.
You want to talk Boff layouts, though? I'll oblige. When I look at the T'varo, here's what I picture:
Cmd Tac: Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3 LtC Universal (Tac): Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Torpedo High Yield 3 Ens Tac: (no idea) Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Tractor Beam 2
Here, I'm picturing a spike damage build. Probably PvP oriented, with an armament like antiproton dual beams, dual heavy cannons, quantum torpedoes and turrets out back. Not something that's around to have a firefight so much as uncloak, claim the kill, and withdraw to rinse repeat. I have no clue what I'd want else for my Ens Tac since I already mostly covered my needs in the other two, and Torpedo High Yield 2 even feels a bit superficial so adding another High Yield 1 seems rather redundant and I don't have much use for a Beam Overload 1 - it's not like I'll make a second pass before circumstances (and cooldowns) favor me better.
So, I end up wishing that the Ensign Tac would be an Ensign Sci so I could have a little more of those going around. Maybe I'd keep Tractor Beam at 1 and pick another power like Hazard Emitters 2 for some HoT and extinguish any plasma fires.
Then... let's say I mostly go with the same idea of quick single kill (because I don't see this as a cannon escort), but switch the universal to engineering. I got for more stamina, ways to boost my weapon power to go well with beam overload and some help to ease any escapes.
Cmd Tac: Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3 Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1 Lt Eng: Engineering Team, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 LtC Universal (Eng): Emergency Power to Shields 1, Reverse Shield Polarity, Emergency Power to Weapon 3 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Tractor Beam 2
Or, perhaps, I instead go sciency.
Cmd Tac: Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3 Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1 Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Hazard Emitters 2 LtC Universal (Sci): Tractor Beam 1, Jam Sensors 2, Photonic Shockwave 1
I do end up with a nice bag of tricks but the Ens Tac still has the least presence. If it had been an Ens Sci, I could've fit something like Transfer Shield Strength (which is, IMHO more useful than a second Tac Team).
I can even do another one. Let's say this time, I'm going a bit more DPSy, because I'm just against PvE content. I go back to making the universal station a tactical one, but put in power that take care of larger groups. Maybe even use this for STFs.
Cmd Tac: Beam Fire at Will 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 1, Cannon Scatter Volley 2, Attack Pattern Omega 3 LtC Universal (Tac): Beam Fire at Will 1, Torpedo Spread 2, Torpedo Spread 3 Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1 Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Hazard Emitters 2
Here, I'm kind of wishing I could've managed to fit Transfer Shield Strength in my science powers, since I'd likely be cloaked significantly less while trying to do a DPS role. I even managed to pair most of my weapon powers, though if I had one less ensign power I'd probably ditch one BFaW in favor of TT1 for the Borg Boarding Party debuff.
* * *
So, overall, this is kind of why I don't see that much usefulness from the Ens Tac station. Kind of like the Defiant and Armitage, it seems annoying to me. It's there, but it doesn't end end being all that well used. That's the beef I have against it.
Also, considering warbirds will be stealthier with higher aux power, it seems to build in a good synergy with science powers. Turning that station into an Ens Sci just seems to play well into the Romulan subterfuge/trickery/science bit better, which is also why I'm advocating it.
Right now isn't bad. Even I can sort of make it work (The LtC universal being turned to science surprised me in its appeal, even). But it doesn't feel ideal for a warbird, which is where I'm trying to come from. And perceptions of 4 DHC escorts didn't even compute in my head, even.
Yeah, the Tvaro looks great to me in its current rendition. Bear in mind if you go as a BOP style alpha striker, you NEED BO/HY. I'm not sure crf is necessary. You always need 2 TTs. It certainly helps but with only 2 dhc I would be tempted give that up for the ability to drop a LCDR sci power in my alpha. This is also a setup I cannot do in a BOP which helps distinguish the two ships a bit. BOPs have full universals but lose the ensign boff completely in exchange. I have to fully support the new boff setup. If you want the traditional raider as we know it right now, play KDF.
I wish people wouldn't judge right off the bat how I would choose to use it or simply decide they know better. It's fine if you like it and I respect that. It's less fine to just look down on someone and state thier opinion as lacking.
I've seen no indication of what the ship is actually meant to be like. I'm not a mind reader - I don't get to assume correctly what a Dev is thinking when he comes up with a Boff layout. People seem to claim this is an escort - well, while I have some raider expectations from it because they said in one of thier blogs that the T'varo would suit the raider playstyle the closest i don't go with the foregone conclusion that this is going to be used mainly as an escort.
There's one type of ship in the game which are escorts, and in general they belong to the Federation, and have their own playstyle. I don't expect these to play like Federation ships. The singularity power and battle cloaks along say this much to me.
You want to talk Boff layouts, though? I'll oblige. When I look at the T'varo, here's what I picture:
Cmd Tac: Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3 LtC Universal (Tac): Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Torpedo High Yield 3 Ens Tac: (no idea) Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1 Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Tractor Beam 2
Here, I'm picturing a spike damage build. Probably PvP oriented, with an armament like antiproton dual beams, dual heavy cannons, quantum torpedoes and turrets out back. Not something that's around to have a firefight so much as uncloak, claim the kill, and withdraw to rinse repeat. I have no clue what I'd want else for my Ens Tac since I already mostly covered my needs in the other two, and Torpedo High Yield 2 even feels a bit superficial so adding another High Yield 1 seems rather redundant and I don't have much use for a Beam Overload 1 - it's not like I'll make a second pass before circumstances (and cooldowns) favor me better.
I'd recommend BO 1 for that ensign in here.
And btw, while I've said that I'm fine with the Ens Tac as a balance move, I now see it's probably more useful than if you made it Sci, or Eng. Then you'd be basically forced to use the universal Lt. Comm. for Tac to make the T'Varo work. It would make you (well, many, possibly not you) use it like so many other bland escorts/raptors in game.
This layout at least pushes for some creativity. (And honestly those layouts you made don't seem that bad.)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
The torpedo launchers of the Mogai don't seem to fire straight ahead anymore but downwards at a 30? or so angle.
The torp launcher is in the pod between the wings under the hull. It always dropped the torps and then they where moving towards the target. Sorta like a cruise missile launcher on a b52.
The torp launcher is in the pod between the wings under the hull. It always dropped the torps and then they where moving towards the target. Sorta like a cruise missile launcher on a b52.
There are two pairs of forward-facing torpedo launchers on the lower wings, so no need to drop anything. Also it isn't the first time they do that. A lot of the Klingon ships were, for half an eternity, plagued with aft torpedoes that jumped upwards out of the launcher.
FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
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These really are two different questions. The first is which one, between the Dehlan and MOgai, should be the Sci-heavy ship, and which one should be the Engi heavy. The second question is whether the Sci heavy ship should have the current setup (used by the Dehlan) or the old one (which the Mogai used to have). Let me answer the second one first.
Whatever else you do, do NOT revert to the old seating. Regardless of the which ship ends up being the sci-heavy one, the current seating is much better. Reasoning:With the old Mogai setup, the universal slot was a false choice. Given the rest of the slots, almost everyone, if not everyone, would be forced to seat an engineer in the slot. The current (Dehlan) seating allows for a lot more flexibility. One can seat another tactical, for a tact heavy setup, and make it work similar to the advanced escort. One could seat an engineer and attempt to do aux2bat build (interesting given the amount of sci powers, and their reliance on aux), or go with another sci for a very science-y feel. There's real choice with the current bridge setup, that wasn't present earlier.
That said, which one ends up being the sci-heavy and which one eng-heavy must come down to your own design goals regarding the ships. Most people here are going to defend one or the other mostly based on which seating they prefer, and which ship they find visually pleasing. The only advice I can give, without introducing my own prejudices, would be point you back to what these ships should be in relation to each other, in your own words. From Dev Blog #3 we have these descriptions of the ships. Now, granted, they refer to the original ships (and not the retrofit, or fleet retro per se), but it seems to me that this relationship between the ships should carry, at least grossly, into their updated forms.
The ship [Dehlan] is larger than the T'liss Light Warbird and much sturdier, as well as carrying a heavier payload of weapons.
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How would "much sturdier" translate into game mechanics? Other than hull and shield strength, it seems to me to also denote heavier Engineer bias. As well:
The Mogai has an average turn rate and impulse speed, but carries more weapons than the Dhelan and has significantly increased hull strength.
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Now, we know that this doesn't actually translate into more weapon slots in the t5 version. So what would more firepower actually mean? Perhaps an extra tactical console, and the ability to create mini-blackholes, or shutdown an opponents ships with a viral matrix?
There are two pairs of forward-facing torpedo launchers on the lower wings, so no need to drop anything. Also it isn't the first time they do that. A lot of the Klingon ships were, for half an eternity, plagued with aft torpedoes that jumped upwards out of the launcher.
You could base yourself on the consoles the Mogai and the Dhelan get.
The Dhael gets the inversion console, which seems about absorbing incoming abuse into singularity power. The Dhelan retrofit gets the sabotage probe.
[Analog abilities could be Reverse Shield Polarity/Feedback Pulse and Viral Matrix]
The Valdore gets the Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator, which basically vampirizes shield though directed energy weapons. The Mogai retrofit's Ionized Particle Beam which enhances weapon fire a bit and can be used to shut down engines.
[Analog abilities could be Energy Drain/Directed Energy Modulation and Emergency Power to Weapons/Subsystem targeting: Engine]
...
This isn't helping. It's just muddling things. They look like engineering could suit just as much as science for both. x_x
The only thing left I'd have to base my own judgment on is how the Mogai is in-game; not boasting much in the way of science abilities. Whereas the Dhelan is a fairly blank slate. Following that logic, the Mogai could be well suited for the unobstrusive engineering abilities, while the Dhelan could boast science powers and not be contradictory to what came before.
Well considering how tough the Valdore/Norexan/Mogai NPCs are, at least compared to everything else that blows up if you as much as sneeze on it, I think the Engi version makes more sense.
Even if it's thanks to Tac Team + Evasive there, survivability is more of an Engi trait in my eyes.
And like the above post says, it was never shown to have any science like abilities in STO PvE or in Nemesis.
The Valdore in Nemesis had a good damage output, and was able to take some damage until the Scimitar managed to get a shot in during a moment of vulnerability.
Sounds more like Tac Engi hybrid to me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
I havent reached 40 yet, but I LOVE the Hanom Guardian Warbird. Romulan Recon Science Vessel? HECK YES! I loved the RSV before I upgraded to Vesta, and my RSV build was just insane for damage and CC.
I love how youre giving us a nice science vessel for the RR, I had lost hope for romulans after seeing how the Gorn Vranus was a batrayal to the KDF and Gorn Philosophies by using the DSSV BOFF Layout. The Hanom will be just as powerful, if not more then my old RSV due to the trait revamp.
Whatever else you do, do NOT revert to the old seating. Regardless of the which ship ends up being the sci-heavy one, the current seating is much better. Reasoning:With the old Mogai setup, the universal slot was a false choice. Given the rest of the slots, almost everyone, if not everyone, would be forced to seat an engineer in the slot.
Not everyone! :P Before the purge, I went science because I needed more science-y stuff for my build. I was running with EPtS 1 and TSS1 for my shield heals, and a single HE2 for my hull repairs. Ended up having to slot APD to be a little less squishy...which I'm now okay with, I have a lot more appreciation for the skill than I used to.
After seeing the stats with the new Dev blog, I have to question Cryptic's sanity.
Why aren't these Romulan ships not balanced with the Federation and Klingon C-store ships? The old C-store ships gave a +1 console and device advantage, while these Romulan ships give not only a +1 console and device advantage, but a +1 BOFF slot advantage.
Is anyone on the team even thinking about balancing ships anymore? Or have we truly crossed the line and that joke about P2W is actually now true?
Not confusion so much as me having my own opinion and making it known, just as much as you've made your own known about the D'deridex. .
It is not a matter of opinion. It's fact that having multiple ensign level tac office slots are more useful then engineering. There is absolutely zero use for more then two ensign level engineering bridge officer slots, none at all, there is no arguing that point. Ensign tac on the other hand adds tactical flexibility to your ship and is only not useful if your running a very basic build. B:FaW1, B:O1, T:S1, T:HY1, and TT1 are all examples of very useful ensign level tactical abilities. Engineering on the other hand has EPtX and that's about it.
The warbirds have been great fun and the singularity cores have added a very interesting gameplay mechanic that I greatly enjoy that can change the course of a battle in an instant. I am with the many other people when they express concern over the lack of science oriented ship classes. From what I have seen, Romulans are very good at disabling and sabatog any enemy ship by any means necessary. I feel as though science ships are falling by the way side and being slightly neglected. I just find it odd that the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought has subsystem targeting but the Romulans don't have a ship like that? Seems a bit backwards to me. Thank you for the test server and taking our feedback seriously. It makes the game that much more fun.
After seeing the stats with the new Dev blog, I have to question Cryptic's sanity.
Why aren't these Romulan ships not balanced with the Federation and Klingon C-store ships? The old C-store ships gave a +1 console and device advantage, while these Romulan ships give not only a +1 console and device advantage, but a +1 BOFF slot advantage.
Is anyone on the team even thinking about balancing ships anymore? Or have we truly crossed the line and that joke about P2W is actually now true?
I don't think you read everything correctly. t5 Romulan retrofits have 9 consoles
the fleet versions 10, they all have the same amount of boff abilities as fed or KDF ships.
The lower tier refits all have an extra console and most get an extra boff ability, but so do fed and kdf refit ships. Nothing is imbalanced.
I love this function of the Singularity Warp Core. But I do have a question. Why does it seem like every other race can also perform these abilities? Are they going to be unique to the Singularity Core or can Standard Warp Cores do them also?
But overall I love the Singularity abilities. I have been playing the Romulan material as a Closed Beta player. I love the material, using the Singularity abilities has saved my life many of time already. I can notice the difference between a 1 charge usage and a 2, 3, 4, or 5 charge usage. I say to you Devs, keep up the good work and as the US military would say ... Bravo Zulu (or good job).
I love this function of the Singularity Warp Core. But I do have a question. Why does it seem like every other race can also perform these abilities? Are they going to be unique to the Singularity Core or can Standard Warp Cores do them also?
But overall I love the Singularity abilities. I have been playing the Romulan material as a Closed Beta player. I love the material, using the Singularity abilities has saved my life many of time already. I can notice the difference between a 1 charge usage and a 2, 3, 4, or 5 charge usage. I say to you Devs, keep up the good work and as the US military would say ... Bravo Zulu (or good job).
Singularity abilities will ONLY work on ships with Singularity Cores....and Warbirds are the only ships that can equip singularity cores (and can't use warp cores)...and Romulans are the only ones whou can get Warbirds.
So the singularity powers will be the exclusive domain of Romulan captains. At least, for now.
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sounds like your confusing how bad it is to have 3 eng ENS stations with how it is to have 3 tac ENS.
3 tac ENS is not bad, most ships want at least 2. you only cant use 3 tac ENS if you use a 4 DHC build. 2 ENS tacs can give you 2 TT1, for that distribute at the system cooldown, very handy. if you use torps, HY1 is a great skill, that has the most damage per torp of any HY. it crits super hard. BO1 is ok, especially if you have a higher grade BO as well, so you can use it every 15 seconds.
escorts are always gonna want 2 TTs, 2 CFRs, and 2 HY/BO, with at least 1 APO. 3 tac ens can help you do this, your going to be missing one of these somewhere with out that 3rd ENS. even the defiant is fine, you get 2 APOs, with it no prob, wile getting 2 or everything else
there is nothing about the tvaro getting a COM and ENS tac to complain about.
Apparently, I am not the only one... though the degree of acceptance differs. If you see nothing wrong with the T'varo's current arrangement, so much the better for you - at the very least I don't perceive that my suggestion to archoncryptic harms your own interests in the least.
Still, I believe replacing the Ensign Tactical to Ensign Science would make the T'varo a better romulan warbird - not stronger, more over-powered and whatnot... just better. I don't care much for it having Enhanced Battle Cloak, but if it's going to be slated to be a fixed addition to the ship my feeling on the matter is that it should be optimized so in order to give the T'varo warbird an identity further different from the other ship with enhanced battle cloak in the game.
All I can ask from the devs perusing this thread is their consideration. I can believe in things strongly without making it a complaint.
No I would not like to see this, the new boff layout is fine as it is. The idea behind the new boff and console layout was so we can have a tac focused ship that can lean towards sci just as good as it can go eng. Its as close to a bop as you can get without making everything universal.
The ensign tac is handy when you are using a the uni as sci or eng, and is still useful if you were to use it as tac, another torpedo high yield 1 is always great. Seems like you are basing your opinions off of a setup that uses 4 DHC and no torps, thats not what this ship or enhanced battle cloak is for, do that with another ship like Mogai or Dhelan.
I've seen no indication of what the ship is actually meant to be like. I'm not a mind reader - I don't get to assume correctly what a Dev is thinking when he comes up with a Boff layout. People seem to claim this is an escort - well, while I have some raider expectations from it because they said in one of thier blogs that the T'varo would suit the raider playstyle the closest i don't go with the foregone conclusion that this is going to be used mainly as an escort.
There's one type of ship in the game which are escorts, and in general they belong to the Federation, and have their own playstyle. I don't expect these to play like Federation ships. The singularity power and battle cloaks along say this much to me.
You want to talk Boff layouts, though? I'll oblige. When I look at the T'varo, here's what I picture:
LtC Universal (Tac): Tactical Team 1, Torpedo High Yield 2, Torpedo High Yield 3
Ens Tac: (no idea)
Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1
Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Tractor Beam 2
Here, I'm picturing a spike damage build. Probably PvP oriented, with an armament like antiproton dual beams, dual heavy cannons, quantum torpedoes and turrets out back. Not something that's around to have a firefight so much as uncloak, claim the kill, and withdraw to rinse repeat. I have no clue what I'd want else for my Ens Tac since I already mostly covered my needs in the other two, and Torpedo High Yield 2 even feels a bit superficial so adding another High Yield 1 seems rather redundant and I don't have much use for a Beam Overload 1 - it's not like I'll make a second pass before circumstances (and cooldowns) favor me better.
So, I end up wishing that the Ensign Tac would be an Ensign Sci so I could have a little more of those going around. Maybe I'd keep Tractor Beam at 1 and pick another power like Hazard Emitters 2 for some HoT and extinguish any plasma fires.
Then... let's say I mostly go with the same idea of quick single kill (because I don't see this as a cannon escort), but switch the universal to engineering. I got for more stamina, ways to boost my weapon power to go well with beam overload and some help to ease any escapes.
Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1
Lt Eng: Engineering Team, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1
LtC Universal (Eng): Emergency Power to Shields 1, Reverse Shield Polarity, Emergency Power to Weapon 3
Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Tractor Beam 2
Or, perhaps, I instead go sciency.
Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1
Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1
Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Hazard Emitters 2
LtC Universal (Sci): Tractor Beam 1, Jam Sensors 2, Photonic Shockwave 1
I do end up with a nice bag of tricks but the Ens Tac still has the least presence. If it had been an Ens Sci, I could've fit something like Transfer Shield Strength (which is, IMHO more useful than a second Tac Team).
I can even do another one. Let's say this time, I'm going a bit more DPSy, because I'm just against PvE content. I go back to making the universal station a tactical one, but put in power that take care of larger groups. Maybe even use this for STFs.
LtC Universal (Tac): Beam Fire at Will 1, Torpedo Spread 2, Torpedo Spread 3
Ens Tac: Tactical Team 1
Lt Eng: Emergency Power to Shields 1, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity 1
Lt Sci: Polarize Hull 1, Hazard Emitters 2
Here, I'm kind of wishing I could've managed to fit Transfer Shield Strength in my science powers, since I'd likely be cloaked significantly less while trying to do a DPS role. I even managed to pair most of my weapon powers, though if I had one less ensign power I'd probably ditch one BFaW in favor of TT1 for the Borg Boarding Party debuff.
* * *
So, overall, this is kind of why I don't see that much usefulness from the Ens Tac station. Kind of like the Defiant and Armitage, it seems annoying to me. It's there, but it doesn't end end being all that well used. That's the beef I have against it.
Also, considering warbirds will be stealthier with higher aux power, it seems to build in a good synergy with science powers. Turning that station into an Ens Sci just seems to play well into the Romulan subterfuge/trickery/science bit better, which is also why I'm advocating it.
Right now isn't bad. Even I can sort of make it work (The LtC universal being turned to science surprised me in its appeal, even). But it doesn't feel ideal for a warbird, which is where I'm trying to come from. And perceptions of 4 DHC escorts didn't even compute in my head, even.
That just makes you more wrong about an ensign tac being useless then because if you are using torps its great, THY1 is very underestimated.
You can just bump THY2 down to 1 its about as good, if it hits unshielded hull it does about as good damage anyway then run another attack pattern, BO, or CRF. Try THY1 out and compare it to THY2 you will be suprised how useful it is and how much options you now have when you find it works just as good for spike. That ensign tac won't look so useless anymore.
Except that the PVE crowd generally uses 4 DHCs: 2xTT, 2xRF, 2xAP
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Yeah, the Tvaro looks great to me in its current rendition. Bear in mind if you go as a BOP style alpha striker, you NEED BO/HY. I'm not sure crf is necessary. You always need 2 TTs. It certainly helps but with only 2 dhc I would be tempted give that up for the ability to drop a LCDR sci power in my alpha. This is also a setup I cannot do in a BOP which helps distinguish the two ships a bit. BOPs have full universals but lose the ensign boff completely in exchange. I have to fully support the new boff setup. If you want the traditional raider as we know it right now, play KDF.
I'd recommend BO 1 for that ensign in here.
And btw, while I've said that I'm fine with the Ens Tac as a balance move, I now see it's probably more useful than if you made it Sci, or Eng. Then you'd be basically forced to use the universal Lt. Comm. for Tac to make the T'Varo work. It would make you (well, many, possibly not you) use it like so many other bland escorts/raptors in game.
This layout at least pushes for some creativity. (And honestly those layouts you made don't seem that bad.)
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
They always did that (for me at least)
The torp launcher is in the pod between the wings under the hull. It always dropped the torps and then they where moving towards the target. Sorta like a cruise missile launcher on a b52.
Hm, I can't remember that from my first playthrough before the wipe.
There are two pairs of forward-facing torpedo launchers on the lower wings, so no need to drop anything. Also it isn't the first time they do that. A lot of the Klingon ships were, for half an eternity, plagued with aft torpedoes that jumped upwards out of the launcher.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
These really are two different questions. The first is which one, between the Dehlan and MOgai, should be the Sci-heavy ship, and which one should be the Engi heavy. The second question is whether the Sci heavy ship should have the current setup (used by the Dehlan) or the old one (which the Mogai used to have). Let me answer the second one first.
Whatever else you do, do NOT revert to the old seating. Regardless of the which ship ends up being the sci-heavy one, the current seating is much better. Reasoning: With the old Mogai setup, the universal slot was a false choice. Given the rest of the slots, almost everyone, if not everyone, would be forced to seat an engineer in the slot. The current (Dehlan) seating allows for a lot more flexibility. One can seat another tactical, for a tact heavy setup, and make it work similar to the advanced escort. One could seat an engineer and attempt to do aux2bat build (interesting given the amount of sci powers, and their reliance on aux), or go with another sci for a very science-y feel. There's real choice with the current bridge setup, that wasn't present earlier.
That said, which one ends up being the sci-heavy and which one eng-heavy must come down to your own design goals regarding the ships. Most people here are going to defend one or the other mostly based on which seating they prefer, and which ship they find visually pleasing. The only advice I can give, without introducing my own prejudices, would be point you back to what these ships should be in relation to each other, in your own words. From Dev Blog #3 we have these descriptions of the ships. Now, granted, they refer to the original ships (and not the retrofit, or fleet retro per se), but it seems to me that this relationship between the ships should carry, at least grossly, into their updated forms.
How would "much sturdier" translate into game mechanics? Other than hull and shield strength, it seems to me to also denote heavier Engineer bias. As well:
Now, we know that this doesn't actually translate into more weapon slots in the t5 version. So what would more firepower actually mean? Perhaps an extra tactical console, and the ability to create mini-blackholes, or shutdown an opponents ships with a viral matrix?
The Qins still throw forward curveballs...
The Dhael gets the inversion console, which seems about absorbing incoming abuse into singularity power. The Dhelan retrofit gets the sabotage probe.
[Analog abilities could be Reverse Shield Polarity/Feedback Pulse and Viral Matrix]
The Valdore gets the Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator, which basically vampirizes shield though directed energy weapons. The Mogai retrofit's Ionized Particle Beam which enhances weapon fire a bit and can be used to shut down engines.
[Analog abilities could be Energy Drain/Directed Energy Modulation and Emergency Power to Weapons/Subsystem targeting: Engine]
...
This isn't helping. It's just muddling things. They look like engineering could suit just as much as science for both. x_x
The only thing left I'd have to base my own judgment on is how the Mogai is in-game; not boasting much in the way of science abilities. Whereas the Dhelan is a fairly blank slate. Following that logic, the Mogai could be well suited for the unobstrusive engineering abilities, while the Dhelan could boast science powers and not be contradictory to what came before.
Even if it's thanks to Tac Team + Evasive there, survivability is more of an Engi trait in my eyes.
And like the above post says, it was never shown to have any science like abilities in STO PvE or in Nemesis.
The Valdore in Nemesis had a good damage output, and was able to take some damage until the Scimitar managed to get a shot in during a moment of vulnerability.
Sounds more like Tac Engi hybrid to me.
Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
I love how youre giving us a nice science vessel for the RR, I had lost hope for romulans after seeing how the Gorn Vranus was a batrayal to the KDF and Gorn Philosophies by using the DSSV BOFF Layout. The Hanom will be just as powerful, if not more then my old RSV due to the trait revamp.
Not everyone! :P Before the purge, I went science because I needed more science-y stuff for my build. I was running with EPtS 1 and TSS1 for my shield heals, and a single HE2 for my hull repairs. Ended up having to slot APD to be a little less squishy...which I'm now okay with, I have a lot more appreciation for the skill than I used to.
Why aren't these Romulan ships not balanced with the Federation and Klingon C-store ships? The old C-store ships gave a +1 console and device advantage, while these Romulan ships give not only a +1 console and device advantage, but a +1 BOFF slot advantage.
Is anyone on the team even thinking about balancing ships anymore? Or have we truly crossed the line and that joke about P2W is actually now true?
It is not a matter of opinion. It's fact that having multiple ensign level tac office slots are more useful then engineering. There is absolutely zero use for more then two ensign level engineering bridge officer slots, none at all, there is no arguing that point. Ensign tac on the other hand adds tactical flexibility to your ship and is only not useful if your running a very basic build. B:FaW1, B:O1, T:S1, T:HY1, and TT1 are all examples of very useful ensign level tactical abilities. Engineering on the other hand has EPtX and that's about it.
It means I can get a Tier 5 fleet retrofit with a Valdore skin that looks just as well armoured and tough as the Valdore looks.
I don't think you read everything correctly. t5 Romulan retrofits have 9 consoles
the fleet versions 10, they all have the same amount of boff abilities as fed or KDF ships.
The lower tier refits all have an extra console and most get an extra boff ability, but so do fed and kdf refit ships. Nothing is imbalanced.
But overall I love the Singularity abilities. I have been playing the Romulan material as a Closed Beta player. I love the material, using the Singularity abilities has saved my life many of time already. I can notice the difference between a 1 charge usage and a 2, 3, 4, or 5 charge usage. I say to you Devs, keep up the good work and as the US military would say ... Bravo Zulu (or good job).
The D'D needs more glow.
Im not getting the cool green glow I want on the inside
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Singularity abilities will ONLY work on ships with Singularity Cores....and Warbirds are the only ships that can equip singularity cores (and can't use warp cores)...and Romulans are the only ones whou can get Warbirds.
So the singularity powers will be the exclusive domain of Romulan captains. At least, for now.