40 power levels is just too low. Unless the singularity powers are very powerful and really worth using, which they're not, then 40 is just too much of a hit, especially for those of us who are just going to use the healing power since the other ones are really not worth it and vastly underpowered to our weapons. and add in the -10 to weapons power and we are now vastly inferior to any FED or KDF player. PVP is essentially ruined for Romulans since they'll never keep their DPS up with FED or KDF thanks to the -10 power. And even PVE will be difficult since as most of us have seen the singularity powers are not that effective even at max power against most normal enemies meaning that even at level 50 say doing elite stfs they'll be pretty useless and we'll all just be using the healing power
This is the point I'm addressing, and everything else you said follows from this point: -10 to each subsystem is too much, and the singularity is effectively useless. If this argument is invalid, then the rest of your post (suggested fixes) is unnecessary.
My counterargument has, and will likely continue to be, people are continually doing the following:
1.) trying to fly their Warbird as if it was their regular ship with an extra "virtual" BOff (the singularity powers) and a cloak, and
2.) underestimating, misunderstanding, or disregarding the singularity power, considering them as "useless" or "a gimmick".
For issue 1, people need to start realizing that they're completely missing the point. Their argument comes off like saying "iPods are terrible! I tried to drive a nail with it and it broke on the first one!" It's understandable that you want to use your hard-earned expertise with existing systems to try to make a new one work, but when it fails (like it's failing for everyone relying on their standard builds which rely on standard power levels) the proper response is "how can I make good use of the tools I've got"...not to demand Apple redesign the iPod to be turned into some variant of the hammer you've already got.
Which brings us to point 2. The singularity powers are potent, but as many have pointed out they're rather situational. Again, the proper response here is NOT "I don't face those situations, therefore they're useless, therefore the system has to be changed," but rather "how can I CREATE those situations where they're most devastating?" I've been talking tactics a lot here, power combos, setting up situations, building around strengths...and nobody's listening. One of the latest posts got the reply "well what if I don't want to use those powers?" I dunno, come up with your own combos then? I'm not your dang mother. If you don't want a group of enemies trapped in your Gravity Well + Singularity Jump combo, getting chewed up by the GW, blinded by the SJ, and well within radius of one another to soak up all the splash damage from all those Torp Spread 3 volleys coming in, then fine, come up with something else. But if your "something else" isn't enhancing or taking advantage of one of your core powers, you're probably going to be in for a bad time of it. Ignoring them, or pretending Quantum Absorption is the only one with any value, is a recipe for disaster.
Finally, you can start building your ship to mitigate some of those weaknesses. The iconic TOS T'liss demonstrated how effective warbirds can be with torpedos...which neither need nor drain weapon power. Nor do mines. With plasma, even if your energy weapons aren't up to draining shields quickly, your plasma fire will bypass and start eating into the hull. Engineers will probably have a field day in warbirds, as they have access to that lovely new trait that boosts all their power levels whenever they use any battery or EPtX skill, and since Warbirds always have at least three battery slots, that's a fair number of batteries they can bring to bear on their power issues. And so on, and so on. Also as I've said, we haven't even seen everything that's planned. The more we see, the more we'll realize that we've got all the tools we need to make killer warbirds...as long as we're willing to use them.
It's pretty much a non-starter to suggest nerfing the battle cloak in any way, shape, or form. If the battle cloak takes any longer than 20 seconds to cool, it might as well not even be there considering how fast paced combat is in this game. The romulans are known for their cloak and dagger and in and out of cloak tactics, romulans are all about cloak. Reducing the effectiveness of the cloak by up to 50 percent is ridiculous and also defeats the purpose of it. A D'deridex and Ha'apax are massive and slow, so they are already going to be easy enough to stay on top of once they battle cloak, let alone with a 50% less effective battle cloak, so all around, nerfing romulan battle cloak is a no go.
I agree that balancing the battle cloak first and then balancing the singularity powers makes sense, and, as I've said before, we've seen from the peghqu and the chimera that a battle cloak apparently only warrants an 8% drop in shield modifier, as these two ships are identical, except the peghqu has 8% lower shields and a battle cloak. So lets not reinvent the wheel on this one, give the romulan ships 8% lower shields or take it out of their hull, but lets not go crazy.
And let us keep in mind that the "increased surviveability" a battle cloak provides comes at a cost. With battle cloak, you might escape destruction, but you can't do damage while cloaked, you can't actively heal while cloaked, and shields don't regenerate while cloaked, which means you have to run off and decloak to heal and come back, or spend a great deal of time while cloaked to let your hull passively repair, but you won't get any shields back. And keep in mind that all this time, the enemy has a chance to actively heal, so the enemy's surviveability also goes up. Plus there's the very real chance that attempting to battle cloak is exactly the opening the enemy needs to blast you out of the sky.
That leaves balancing the singularity powers... which is admittedly difficult. They are essentially one power, because you can only use one of them when you get a charge, but they do provide the versatility of being able to choose which power you use. However, they are not reliably available. The singularity does not constantly charge, it only charges while in combat and loses charge out of combat and stops charging while cloaked. Which is why I don't see the point in high singularity charge reducing the effectiveness of your cloak... the two of them already rub each other the wrong way because the cloak stops singularity charging.
Unfortunately, I'm not even sure what to suggest for balancing this because it is so complicated a thing.
Really can't disagree with anything.
And speaking of the 'increased survivability' that cryptic keeps talking about, nerf the hull. That's really the solution to everything. boost the power levels, and nerf the hull
The B'rel retrofit has 21000 hull.
The Dhelan retrofit is very similar, though it has an extra boff, 3rd rear weapon, less turn, about 5 times the crew, extra device slot, and 31500 hull.
So were looking at a ship that easily puts the b'rel to shame. 10.5k extra hull, extra weapon, more crew, extra device, AND the singularity powers. Now compared to a fed escort it actually has less hull, but still more crew, extra device, and singularity.
I'd gladly take a 25% hit in hull if it meant boosting the powers back up. And honestly, if you want to balance the ships and reduce the survivability, hull is what needs to change as evident just in comparing the b'rel and dhelan.
Let me say up front, I'm NOT touching PvP applications on this; I will say freely, my ISP sucks so I don't bother trying PvP, I'll have to rely on your own expertise to consider the PvP applications for this info.
Just tossing some numbers out from lvl 50, science officer. 102 points total in particle gen. Damage listed as [blast]/[DoT], rank 5 (rank 1 is about half that)
Plain: 1528 / 4586
With decloak bonus: 1910 / 5732
With Conservation of Energy: 1987 / 5962
With CoE AND decloak: 2369 / 7108
Even if you assume stripped shields, that's still not going to take out, say, a Danube, but it'll certainly help, and hit up to 10 of the little buggers. Not a perfect spam solution, admittedly. Probably more useful vs large torps. Can be enhanced to have a 10% chance to disable one subsystem, but that's too little chance to bother with.
Given that it's the only one that's affected by exotic damage boosts, I think it's primarily there to give science officers more oomph to their arsenal, but it really does not age well or scale well with level.
Dangit, I forgot to check if that's including the bonus from the Romulan Energy Harness for plasma damage. Actual numbers might be lower.
the singularity + jump the d'deridex has looks like the perfect weapon against siphon drones or interceptors, maybe runabouts too. any swarm of spam thats pinning you down will be delt with by that, plus you can jump and face your target. not terribly useful in pve, but im gonna like this in pvp.
The real power of the Singularity Jump is in the Accuracy and Perception debuff; if you've got a good cluster of enemies (preferably ones slowed in some fashion already, such as by warp plasma) you can keep them blind til they move away from it. And if you can arrange a Gravity Well (yours or someone else's) where you drop the Singularity Jump, I don't know if they CAN get away from it. PVE enemies generally don't unless they were at the edge of the effect already. But yeah, will give you enough time to cloak, spin, and decloak without having to worry about attacks from those in the SJ effect.
Since I haven't been relying on energy weapons so much, and certainly not the HCs and DHCs favored by escorts, I'm rather underwhelmed by the Overcharge, but I think those wanting the Raider/Escort playstyle will like it. It looks like it overwrites FAW, so it probably replaces Cannon Rapid Fire and Cannon Spray with its buff. It jacks up damage AND seems to remove weapon fire drain for the duration. For someone on a heavy energy weapon build, they'll probably find plenty of use for it; for myself, not so much. The description says it HAS to be used from cloak, but it appears to be lying, as it seems to work regardless of cloakedness.
frankly, the hitpoins on all the romulan ships are too high for having the battle cloak. ether that, or the bird of preys need a significant balance pass. i think both proboly. the lower power isn't to critical, and balances out the singularity powers. but the warbirds have federation ship hitpoints with battle cloak. maybe the warbirds need to be given the same treatment that fleet ships get, but instead of +10% to everything, -10% instead.
Warbirds have federation strength hulls because they have federation (actually worse) turn rates. The thicker your hull, the lower your turn rate, it has nothing to do with the battle cloak. As I have said before, the peghqu and the chimera are carbon copies of one another on fed and kdf side, the one difference is that the peghqu has a battle cloak, and apparently the compensation for that is -8% shield modifier. The devs have apparently chosen to compensate for both the battle cloak and the singularity powers by giving warbirds lower power levels. That means lower damage, lower shields, lower turn/speed and lower heals/sci skills. Warbirds don't need their hulls and shield modifiers nerfed on top of that.
Bops have such weak hulls because they have such high turn rates. I presume the slightly lower shield modifier when compared to a raptor is payment for the battle cloak, and one less aft weapon and loss of an ensign boff to compensate for all universal seating. Yes, there are escorts/raptors out there with good boff setups, but the bop is versatile without needing to switch from one ship or another to change tactics, so don't underestimate the value of that.
And speaking of the 'increased survivability' that cryptic keeps talking about, nerf the hull. That's really the solution to everything. boost the power levels, and nerf the hull
The B'rel retrofit has 21000 hull.
The Dhelan retrofit is very similar, though it has an extra boff, 3rd rear weapon, less turn, about 5 times the crew, extra device slot, and 31500 hull.
So were looking at a ship that easily puts the b'rel to shame. 10.5k extra hull, extra weapon, more crew, extra device, AND the singularity powers. Now compared to a fed escort it actually has less hull, but still more crew, extra device, and singularity.
I'd gladly take a 25% hit in hull if it meant boosting the powers back up. And honestly, if you want to balance the ships and reduce the survivability, hull is what needs to change as evident just in comparing the b'rel and dhelan.
I think that the increased surviveability translates literally into seeing the respawn timer less, but what we have to look at is: what is the cost of this surviveability? Do people not die as much, but still take more time to complete the mission because they had to run off and heal before coming back, which also gives the enemy time to heal? If so, that increase in surviveability is compensated for by the healing the enemy does and taking more time in the mission. That kind of survivability does not need to be 'balanced" or corrected. There's nothing wrong with that.
A 25% reduction in hull on a D'deridex would give one the hull of an escort and the turn of a carrier... that's an absolute no go, lol. I think the reduced power levels will ultimately be manageable. A few things they could do to make them more palatable though would be to remove the "shields don't regenerate below 25 power" since warbirds will drop below that. I really wish they would also remove the power drain from weapons, that way one does not have to pour 145 power into weapons just to consistently get 125 ish. They may have to rebalance weapon damage to compensate, but I think it would be preferable. They could also stand to buff engineering power enhancing consoles, it would be better for all factions, but in particular, a warbird could pop on a energy enhancer to whichever system they feel most needs the compensation. Once the power consoles are buffed, they could add a new console that gives bonus power across the board. So, for example, one could put +12 to one system, or with the new console, +3 to all power levels. (I use those more conservative numbers as I doubt they would go for +20 to a subsystem and +5 to all consoles... but that would be appreciated. )
Given current crew mechanics, I would not call the Dhelan having a larger crew an "advantage" lol. All those extra crew will die/get a paper cut and go on strike just as quickly if not more so than a bop's crew and will take a year longer to get back to work than a bop's small crew.
I think the reasons why the devs are fine giving such a powerful escort type vessel an enhanced battle cloak because, if I"m not mistaken, it has very few science and engineering abilities available to it. So unlike a brel that has universals for high science and eng powers while also spamming torps and mines, this ship just has high tactical abilities for torps and mines only. Of course, the brel can go tac heavy too, the universals give it that versatility, but the Dhelan is stuck in tactical mode. So in theory I don't think it will be that big of a deal, or steal any, or at least not too much, of the brel's thunder, but we shall have to see.
I don't think the Dhelan will be able to use singularity powers while enhanced battle cloaked, battle cloak prevents the singularity from charging... so those would only be available should it choose to stay in the fight and not use enhanced battle cloak... so I don't really find that OP either.
I think that the increased surviveability translates literally into seeing the respawn timer less, but what we have to look at is: what is the cost of this surviveability? Do people not die as much, but still take more time to complete the mission because they had to run off and heal before coming back, which also gives the enemy time to heal? If so, that increase in surviveability is compensated for by the healing the enemy does and taking more time in the mission. That kind of survivability does not need to be 'balanced" or corrected. There's nothing wrong with that.
A 25% reduction in hull on a D'deridex would give one the hull of an escort and the turn of a carrier... that's an absolute no go, lol. I think the reduced power levels will ultimately be manageable. A few things they could do to make them more palatable though would be to remove the "shields don't regenerate below 25 power" since warbirds will drop below that. I really wish they would also remove the power drain from weapons, that way one does not have to pour 145 power into weapons just to consistently get 125 ish. They may have to rebalance weapon damage to compensate, but I think it would be preferable. They could also stand to buff engineering power enhancing consoles, it would be better for all factions, but in particular, a warbird could pop on a energy enhancer to whichever system they feel most needs the compensation. Once the power consoles are buffed, they could add a new console that gives bonus power across the board. So, for example, one could put +12 to one system, or with the new console, +3 to all power levels. (I use those more conservative numbers as I doubt they would go for +20 to a subsystem and +5 to all consoles... but that would be appreciated. )
Given current crew mechanics, I would not call the Dhelan having a larger crew an "advantage" lol. All those extra crew will die/get a paper cut and go on strike just as quickly if not more so than a bop's crew and will take a year longer to get back to work than a bop's small crew.
I think the reasons why the devs are fine giving such a powerful escort type vessel an enhanced battle cloak because, if I"m not mistaken, it has very few science and engineering abilities available to it. So unlike a brel that has universals for high science and eng powers while also spamming torps and mines, this ship just has high tactical abilities for torps and mines only. Of course, the brel can go tac heavy too, the universals give it that versatility, but the Dhelan is stuck in tactical mode. So in theory I don't think it will be that big of a deal, or steal any, or at least not too much, of the brel's thunder, but we shall have to see.
I don't think the Dhelan will be able to use singularity powers while enhanced battle cloaked, battle cloak prevents the singularity from charging... so those would only be available should it choose to stay in the fight and not use enhanced battle cloak... so I don't really find that OP either.
Good point, we really don't know exactly what they mean by that. and the greater hull, healing and more eng/sci boffs will give more healing, though -10 weapons means that it'll take longer to kill enemies. Though if you use plasma you can get an extra 17.2% damage with the 2 piece weapon/console set and a plasma infused fleet console which should help offset the lower weapon power. Tetryon also gets a 7.6% boost with the new tholian rep items that could offset it a little bit.
Obviously hull reduction depends on the ship. The Mogai, Dhelan and T'Varo for instance have really high hulls for escort/birdofprey type ships, but as you also mention the b'rel has full universal slots to make up for it.
Your idea for a console is pretty much similar to my idea for a fleet singularity core that would add power to all 4 systems. I personally love my idea of a +7.5 power in each system for max singularity, which is similar to what they have now but it's only one system, have a unique or fleet one that would give it to all 4, though possibly add a drawback to make up for it.
i think the best way to balance the romulan ships is to do a balance pass on everything else
Yep, yup, yep...kind of hard to balance something new against something old when the old isn't quite balanced...
...even what's been said about trying to balance Romulan Cloaking against what's currently there - well, what's currently there...Cryptic's already been looking at addressing that.
So should they address that first - then balance against that...
...or should they not address that, try to balance against that, then maybe/maybe not ever get around to addressing it and then having to readdress the Romulan stealth?
Fun stuff...fun stuff...if you like hitting your thumb with the hammer instead of the nail.
Your idea for a console is pretty much similar to my idea for a fleet singularity core that would add power to all 4 systems. I personally love my idea of a +7.5 power in each system for max singularity, which is similar to what they have now but it's only one system, have a unique or fleet one that would give it to all 4, though possibly add a drawback to make up for it.
good point with the crew, they are useless. lol
If I am not mistaken, they have bumped it up from 7.5 to 15. It starts at 5 and goes to 15 with full charge. I've heard that the devs said they don't plan to put in a core that gives a bonus to weapons because everyone would take that core, so instead, they could put in a balanced core that gives +5 to shields, engines, and aux instead of 15 to one system so that one could choose to have all their bonus to one system or spread the love. But I still think those engineering power booster consoles need a real big buff to be worth anything at all. As it stands, rcs and neutronium (though some use other armors too) are the only eng consoles sane people use. The emergency force fields barely do anything to crew death/disable the power boosters barely give anything, EPS isn't necessary anymore now that weapon power drain springs back to normal after each volley, and structural integrity field generators increase hull heal, but as the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Yep, yup, yep...kind of hard to balance something new against something old when the old isn't quite balanced...
...even what's been said about trying to balance Romulan Cloaking against what's currently there - well, what's currently there...Cryptic's already been looking at addressing that.
So should they address that first - then balance against that...
...or should they not address that, try to balance against that, then maybe/maybe not ever get around to addressing it and then having to readdress the Romulan stealth?
Fun stuff...fun stuff...if you like hitting your thumb with the hammer instead of the nail.
Personally, I think I would rather hit my thumb with the nail than the hammer... see what I did there? lol.
What exactly has cryptic been looking at addressing and in what ways? What do they think is out of balance/needs fixing? And have they given any indication as to how they plan on fixing these issues?
Let me say up front, I'm NOT touching PvP applications on this; I will say freely, my ISP sucks so I don't bother trying PvP, I'll have to rely on your own expertise to consider the PvP applications for this info.
Just tossing some numbers out from lvl 50, science officer. 102 points total in particle gen. Damage listed as [blast]/[DoT], rank 5 (rank 1 is about half that)
Plain: 1528 / 4586
With decloak bonus: 1910 / 5732
With Conservation of Energy: 1987 / 5962
With CoE AND decloak: 2369 / 7108
Even if you assume stripped shields, that's still not going to take out, say, a Danube, but it'll certainly help, and hit up to 10 of the little buggers. Not a perfect spam solution, admittedly. Probably more useful vs large torps. Can be enhanced to have a 10% chance to disable one subsystem, but that's too little chance to bother with.
Given that it's the only one that's affected by exotic damage boosts, I think it's primarily there to give science officers more oomph to their arsenal, but it really does not age well or scale well with level.
Dangit, I forgot to check if that's including the bonus from the Romulan Energy Harness for plasma damage. Actual numbers might be lower.
The real power of the Singularity Jump is in the Accuracy and Perception debuff; if you've got a good cluster of enemies (preferably ones slowed in some fashion already, such as by warp plasma) you can keep them blind til they move away from it. And if you can arrange a Gravity Well (yours or someone else's) where you drop the Singularity Jump, I don't know if they CAN get away from it. PVE enemies generally don't unless they were at the edge of the effect already. But yeah, will give you enough time to cloak, spin, and decloak without having to worry about attacks from those in the SJ effect.
Since I haven't been relying on energy weapons so much, and certainly not the HCs and DHCs favored by escorts, I'm rather underwhelmed by the Overcharge, but I think those wanting the Raider/Escort playstyle will like it. It looks like it overwrites FAW, so it probably replaces Cannon Rapid Fire and Cannon Spray with its buff. It jacks up damage AND seems to remove weapon fire drain for the duration. For someone on a heavy energy weapon build, they'll probably find plenty of use for it; for myself, not so much. The description says it HAS to be used from cloak, but it appears to be lying, as it seems to work regardless of cloakedness.
You would kill them also quite easy without the singularity skills while still having the -10 Power, cause pve is easy like hell. I mean there were teams that did stfs in shuttles (don`t remember if it was elite or normal), i think that says all about how difficult pve is.
And the point was always how warbirds do in comparison with FED/KDF ships and not how they perform in generall in pve. In this comparison the -10 Power does hurt way more then the Singularity Abilities and the cloak giving you benefits.
Just for the fun, lets say a power console gives you 4 points of energy for a subsystem (that would be a mk 12 very rare) So to compensate the power disadvantage you would need 10 consoles. Taking aside that you can`t fit 10 consoles of that kind on your ship but ok.
I think most ppl here (except you) will agree, that the Singularity Powers and the cloak are not worth 10 console slots.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
A simple comparison...Fleet B'rel Retrofit vs. Fleet T'varo Retrofit:
HullT'varo
The T'varo has 8250 more hull health than the B'rel.
Shield ModifierT'varo
The T'varo has 0.11 more shield mod than the B'rel.
WeaponsT'varo
The T'varo has one more aft weapon than the B'rel.
CrewT'varo
The T'varo has 120 more crew than the B'rel.
Device SlotsT'varo
The T'varo has one more device slot than the B'rel.
Turn RateB'rel
The B'rel has 5 more turn than the T'varo.
Inertia RatingB'rel
The B'rel has 20 more inertia than the T'varo.
Impulse ModifierUnknown
Not sure what the modifier is the for the T'varo.
Weapon PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +15 more weapon power than the T'varo.
Shield PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +10 more shield power than the T'varo.
Engine PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +5 more engine power than the T'varo.
Auxiliary PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +10 more auxiliary power than the T'varo.
Tac ConsolesT'varo
The T'varo has two more Tac consoles than the B'rel.
Eng ConsolesB'rel
The B'rel has one more Eng console than the T'varo.
Sci ConsolesB'rel
The B'rel has one more Sci console than the T'varo.
CloakT'varo
Both have an Enhanced Battle Cloak, but Romulans have better cloaks.
BOFF LayoutDebatable
The B'rel has: Cmdr/LCdr/Lt/Lt
The T'varo has: Cmdr/Lt/En, LCdr, Lt.
CoresUnknown
Without knowing all of the Warp Cores and Singularity Cores that will be available, it is too early to say at this point, no?
AbilitiesT'varo
The T'varo has access to the following Singularity Core Abilities that the B'rel does not: Plasma Shockwave, Quantum Absorption, Warp Shadows, Singularity Jump, and Singularity Overcharge.
Universal/Special ConsolesT'varo
The T'varo has access to the Mega Torpedo Console from the T'varo Retrofit. It also has access to all of the T1-T4 Romulan Universal Consoles. It also has access to the T1-T4 Consoles from ally ships as well as those from "enemy" ships. Supposedly there is a 2pc set bonus for equipping both the T'varo Refit and Retrofit Consoles.
wn"]Unknown[/COLOR][/B]
Not sure what the modifier is the for the T'varo.
Weapon PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +5 more weapon power than the T'varo.
Shield PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +5 more shield power than the T'varo.
Engine PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +5 more engine power than the T'varo.
Auxiliary PowerB'rel
The B'rel has +5 more auxiliary power than the T'varo.
The T`varo Retrofit gets the same -10 to all subsystems . Only the t1 ships keep the -5 to all subsystems. So if you comparing a B`rel it has +10 to each subsystem compared to a T`varo Retrofit .
And crew does have basically not a real impact on the ships performance anyways, so having more crew doesn`t really matter.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
If I am not mistaken, they have bumped it up from 7.5 to 15. It starts at 5 and goes to 15 with full charge. I've heard that the devs said they don't plan to put in a core that gives a bonus to weapons because everyone would take that core, so instead, they could put in a balanced core that gives +5 to shields, engines, and aux instead of 15 to one system so that one could choose to have all their bonus to one system or spread the love. But I still think those engineering power booster consoles need a real big buff to be worth anything at all. As it stands, rcs and neutronium (though some use other armors too) are the only eng consoles sane people use. The emergency force fields barely do anything to crew death/disable the power boosters barely give anything, EPS isn't necessary anymore now that weapon power drain springs back to normal after each volley, and structural integrity field generators increase hull heal, but as the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
A Singularity Core that goes from +1.7 to Shields/Eng/Aux at charge zero to +5 S/E/A at charge 5? Not a bad idea, could fit well as a fleet or reputation store item. I'd probably stick with my Aux-buffing core myself, but there's no denying there would be advantages.
Is Plasma shockwave affected by tac buffs btw ? I have rolled sci, so do not know...
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
The T`varo Retrofit gets the same -10 to all subsystems . Only the t1 ships keep the -5 to all subsystems. So if you comparing a B`rel it has +10 to each subsystem compared to a T`varo Retrofit .
And crew does have basically not a real impact on the ships performance anyways, so having more crew doesn`t really matter.
Reverted most Warbirds to 40 base power for all subsystems.
This does not impact the T'liss or the T'varo, which retain a base of 45.
Is it a case that those notes only apply to the T1 boats then? Was that clarified in the thread? I'll go look.
edit: There's nothing in that thread stating that it does not apply to the T'varo Retrofit or Fleet T'varo Retrofit. I know that the descriptions say certain things on the ship vendor - but again, the Fleet versions state they have the consoles that come from the Retrofits...copy/paste issues...etc, etc, etc.
I'd like some clarification on that. I'll go ahead and ask that in the May 3rd thread...
Is it a case that those notes only apply to the T1 boats then? Was that clarified in the thread? I'll go look.
edit: There's nothing in that thread stating that it does not apply to the T'varo Retrofit or Fleet T'varo Retrofit. I know that the descriptions say certain things on the ship vendor - but again, the Fleet versions state they have the consoles that come from the Retrofits...copy/paste issues...etc, etc, etc.
I'd like some clarification on that. I'll go ahead and ask that in the May 3rd thread...
Hope you get an answer; currently on Tribble, even the T1 T'varo lists the 40 base power levels, as does the T5 versions.
I suspect, though, that since the rationale for the T'liss getting the 45 base power was to ensure its survivability until the captain can get efficiency and such, the T5 versions are not intended to have that benefit.
Is Plasma shockwave affected by tac buffs btw ? I have rolled sci, so do not know...
Just checked, Plasma Shockwave is NOT affected by Tac Team (which is to be expected, since it buffs your weapon skills rather than damage directly), but IS affected by Attack Pattern Omega's damage buff. Should make it a little more effective as a spam-sweeper if needed while in the middle of an alpha strike.
Oh, and since this is the thread for ship feedback...
T5 Mogai + Reman Mk 12 set looks ABSOLUTELY WICKED!!!
Smooth but dark dark dark metallic hull, with a hint of purple in the reflected lights, and a few solitary brightly colored windows...I'm SO glad I snagged this before y'all switched the DS9 test vendor to Nukara stuff.
GREAT job on the appearance...I feel 20 times more stealthy from the appearance alone! ^_^
Hope you get an answer; currently on Tribble, even the T1 T'varo lists the 40 base power levels, as does the T5 versions.
I suspect, though, that since the rationale for the T'liss getting the 45 base power was to ensure its survivability until the captain can get efficiency and such, the T5 versions are not intended to have that benefit.
Yep that is the reason imo only the T1 get the 45 base power. They would have probably mentioned it if it would also be that way on the refit. Also why would they give 1 ship 45 basepower at t5? Guess which ship most ppl then would choose.
But ok i still hope we get the 45 base power back to all ships.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
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archoncrypticMember, Cryptic DevelopersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Quick Clarification: The tier 1 T'varo is the one that has the 45 base power to all subsystems and an additional +5 to Engines. We're going to rephrase this in the ship description to 40 base, +5 Weapons, +5 Aux, +5 Shields, +10 Engines in the tooltip description soon, just to avoid confusion.
The T'varo Retrofit (T5) has 40 base power to all subsystems, much like all other T5 warbords currently do. It has the standard Warbird +10 to Weapons and +5 to Engines at this time.
Quick Clarification: The tier 1 T'varo is the one that has the 45 base power to all subsystems and an additional +5 to Engines. We're going to rephrase this in the ship description to 40 base, +5 Weapons, +5 Aux, +5 Shields, +10 Engines in the tooltip description soon, just to avoid confusion.
The T'varo Retrofit (T5) has 40 base power to all subsystems, much like all other T5 warbords currently do. It has the standard Warbird +10 to Weapons and +5 to Engines at this time.
Thanks Archon. Saw the 40 base reply to the question in the May 3rd. The 10 Wep/5 Eng, though? Both the SA/T5 Retro and "VA"/Fleet list +15 Wep for the T'varo. Hrmm, I'll go modify my post again.
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archoncrypticMember, Cryptic DevelopersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
We're doing a full pass on the descriptions of Romulan ships right now. Some of them - especially the top tier and C-store ones - had some placeholder text before.
We're doing a full pass on the descriptions of Romulan ships right now. Some of them - especially the top tier and C-store ones - had some placeholder text before.
I had been wondering though when it comes to the Enhanced Battle Cloaks if there could be a pass on how they work even it results in special D-Store or C-Store torpedoes and mines or consoles. In the B'rels current status if it works like that with the T'varo it will not bode well.
I did provide an example in another thread about modeling certain future weapons for B'rel and T'varo for store applications to work like the marauder console where you have some base shield and hull damage and adequate balanced % procs to do additional damage.
We're doing a full pass on the descriptions of Romulan ships right now. Some of them - especially the top tier and C-store ones - had some placeholder text before.
Doh, I should have realized that...I even pointed out how some of it looked copy/paste - ala - placeholder. Thanks!
We're doing a full pass on the descriptions of Romulan ships right now. Some of them - especially the top tier and C-store ones - had some placeholder text before.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
I've been meaning to ask this, keep forgetting, but it came up while explaining why somebody might buy certain ships. Is there any more information available on this (or even if it is still going to be part of the LoR release or has been cut)...?
Players who use the consoles from both the Refit and Retrofit versions of the ship ? for example, the Valdore?s Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator and the Mogai Retrofit?s Ionized Particle Beam ? will benefit from a set bonus for having both consoles equipped. Pick up a Legacy Pack for a great deal that packages the Refits and Retrofits together."
I've been meaning to ask this, keep forgetting, but it came up while explaining why somebody might buy certain ships. Is there any more information available on this (or even if it is still going to be part of the LoR release or has been cut)...?
Players who use the consoles from both the Refit and Retrofit versions of the ship ? for example, the Valdore?s Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator and the Mogai Retrofit?s Ionized Particle Beam ? will benefit from a set bonus for having both consoles equipped. Pick up a Legacy Pack for a great deal that packages the Refits and Retrofits together."
It will (most likely) for a few months but then it will get nerfed after their "metrics" shows a huge decline in sales of them. I just hope the new masters have learned that there is more to Star Trek than what is already in the game and that they don't have to keep making up things that aren't Trek just to keep content flowing.
I've been meaning to ask this, keep forgetting, but it came up while explaining why somebody might buy certain ships. Is there any more information available on this (or even if it is still going to be part of the LoR release or has been cut)...?
Players who use the consoles from both the Refit and Retrofit versions of the ship ? for example, the Valdore?s Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator and the Mogai Retrofit?s Ionized Particle Beam ? will benefit from a set bonus for having both consoles equipped. Pick up a Legacy Pack for a great deal that packages the Refits and Retrofits together."
Having the T5 Mogai, I can tell you that the Ionized Particle Beam's info panels shows that it DOES have a set bonus...but there's nothing filled in for it yet. I'm guessing the details of the set powers are still "To Be Determined."
1) First of all,I will assume that the subsystem power disadvantage is a counter to all the singularity powers warbirds possess. Nothing more, nothing less.
2) Then come the question of the smaller 'birds (T'Varo, Dhelan versions):I am afraid they currently have the best of both worlds, basically.
- They have the shields of FED escorts (better than KDF raptors, much better than KDF BoPs).
- Their hulls are as strong as FED escorts (slightly worse than KDF raptors, much better than KDF BoPs).
- Their turn is that of FED escorts (slightly better than KDF raptors, noticeably worse than KDF BoPs).
- Yet they have both Battlecloak (even enhanced for T'Varo Tier 5 versions) as KDF BoPs (better than KDF raptors, no cloak for FED escorts).
So those two warbirds are like FED escorts in all ways except they gain Battlecloak.
They have better shields, turn and cloak than KDF raptors, slightly worse hulls.
They have far better shields and hull than KDF BoPs. In most cases, have one more ensign Boff slot. Have one more aft weapon. Don't have (entirely) universal Boff seating.
I would advise a noticeable cut in hull. 10-15%. Battlecloak is a fragile piece of technology. Or give them only 2 aft weapon slots, a la KDF BoP.
3) Mogai versions.This one is basically a sort of destroyer, basically a slower bigger escort.
- shields of a FED escort (better than KDF raptors and much better KDF BoPs);
- hull of a KDF raptor (better than FED escorts and much better than KDF BoPs);
- turn of a KDF raptor (worse than FED escorts, much worse than KDF BoPs);
- 4/3 weapons (same as FED escorts and KDF raptors, better than KDF BoPs);
- battlecloak (same as KDF BoPs, better than KDF raptors, no cloak for FEDs).
If it had a regular cloak, it'd almost be a (better shielded) raptor, so then comparable to FED escorts (less turn, cloak, more hull). As it stands, it's somewhat stronger than what FEDs and KDF can muster.
Again, a slight cut in hull wouldn't harm. Probably no need for anything as drastic as on the previous two warbirds though.
4) D'Deridex and Ha'Apax.Those two end up being pretty balanced, surprisingly.
- turn of FED cruisers (and the Bortasqu') (much worse than KDF battle cruisers);
- hull of FED cruisers (and the Bortasqu') (better to somewhat better than KDF battle cruisers);
- shields as FEDs and KDF, pretty much;
- can load (dual) cannons, as KDF battle cruisers (quite an advantage over FED cruisers);
- battlecloak (better than regular cloak on KDF battlecruisers, much better than no cloak on FED cruisers).
While pretty much better than FED cruisers (no real wonder there), they end up comparable with KDF battle cruisers: They have somewhat more hull and Battlecloak, but much worse turn. Theoretically, the Battlecloak can even make the (dual) cannons usable on them, althought not as well as on KDF battle cruisers.
Here it's more of a personal wish than an advisement: again less hull and possibly a bit more turn (though not as much as KDF battle cruisers).
Overall, while none of the warbirds seems to be noticeably worse than other faction's offerings, they tend to be less and less "overpowered" as they grow in size.
(And I haven't even considered the very sad T'Varo retrofit/B'Rel retrofit situation about Enhanced Battlecloak. Really, the smaller the warbird, the more "out of proportion" its strenght is.)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
1) First of all,I will assume that the subsystem power disadvantage is a counter to all the singularity powers warbirds possess. Nothing more, nothing less.
The problem with this analysis is that your first premise is incorrect; the power level reduction is to counter BOTH the the singularity AND the battle cloak. They need to be factored together.
When you say warbird X has the shields of a Fed escort, that's not taking into account the regen and resistance penalty imposed by reduced shield power. They don't NEED a hull cut to be rendered squishy to balance the cloak, that is factored in elsewhere. When you say they have an extra weapon compared to the BoPs, that weapon is drawing from a reduced pool of powers, reducing the effectiveness of all the energy weapons. When you say it has the turning rate...well, you should have the idea by now.
The Singularity powers go hand in hand with the battle cloak; assuming one is a system that doesn't interact with the other is doing both a disservice.
Comments
And what was the core of the thesis? The central point of the post?
This is the point I'm addressing, and everything else you said follows from this point: -10 to each subsystem is too much, and the singularity is effectively useless. If this argument is invalid, then the rest of your post (suggested fixes) is unnecessary.
My counterargument has, and will likely continue to be, people are continually doing the following:
1.) trying to fly their Warbird as if it was their regular ship with an extra "virtual" BOff (the singularity powers) and a cloak, and
2.) underestimating, misunderstanding, or disregarding the singularity power, considering them as "useless" or "a gimmick".
For issue 1, people need to start realizing that they're completely missing the point. Their argument comes off like saying "iPods are terrible! I tried to drive a nail with it and it broke on the first one!" It's understandable that you want to use your hard-earned expertise with existing systems to try to make a new one work, but when it fails (like it's failing for everyone relying on their standard builds which rely on standard power levels) the proper response is "how can I make good use of the tools I've got"...not to demand Apple redesign the iPod to be turned into some variant of the hammer you've already got.
Which brings us to point 2. The singularity powers are potent, but as many have pointed out they're rather situational. Again, the proper response here is NOT "I don't face those situations, therefore they're useless, therefore the system has to be changed," but rather "how can I CREATE those situations where they're most devastating?" I've been talking tactics a lot here, power combos, setting up situations, building around strengths...and nobody's listening. One of the latest posts got the reply "well what if I don't want to use those powers?" I dunno, come up with your own combos then? I'm not your dang mother. If you don't want a group of enemies trapped in your Gravity Well + Singularity Jump combo, getting chewed up by the GW, blinded by the SJ, and well within radius of one another to soak up all the splash damage from all those Torp Spread 3 volleys coming in, then fine, come up with something else. But if your "something else" isn't enhancing or taking advantage of one of your core powers, you're probably going to be in for a bad time of it. Ignoring them, or pretending Quantum Absorption is the only one with any value, is a recipe for disaster.
Finally, you can start building your ship to mitigate some of those weaknesses. The iconic TOS T'liss demonstrated how effective warbirds can be with torpedos...which neither need nor drain weapon power. Nor do mines. With plasma, even if your energy weapons aren't up to draining shields quickly, your plasma fire will bypass and start eating into the hull. Engineers will probably have a field day in warbirds, as they have access to that lovely new trait that boosts all their power levels whenever they use any battery or EPtX skill, and since Warbirds always have at least three battery slots, that's a fair number of batteries they can bring to bear on their power issues. And so on, and so on. Also as I've said, we haven't even seen everything that's planned. The more we see, the more we'll realize that we've got all the tools we need to make killer warbirds...as long as we're willing to use them.
Really can't disagree with anything.
And speaking of the 'increased survivability' that cryptic keeps talking about, nerf the hull. That's really the solution to everything. boost the power levels, and nerf the hull
The B'rel retrofit has 21000 hull.
The Dhelan retrofit is very similar, though it has an extra boff, 3rd rear weapon, less turn, about 5 times the crew, extra device slot, and 31500 hull.
So were looking at a ship that easily puts the b'rel to shame. 10.5k extra hull, extra weapon, more crew, extra device, AND the singularity powers. Now compared to a fed escort it actually has less hull, but still more crew, extra device, and singularity.
I'd gladly take a 25% hit in hull if it meant boosting the powers back up. And honestly, if you want to balance the ships and reduce the survivability, hull is what needs to change as evident just in comparing the b'rel and dhelan.
Just tossing some numbers out from lvl 50, science officer. 102 points total in particle gen. Damage listed as [blast]/[DoT], rank 5 (rank 1 is about half that)
Plain: 1528 / 4586
With decloak bonus: 1910 / 5732
With Conservation of Energy: 1987 / 5962
With CoE AND decloak: 2369 / 7108
Even if you assume stripped shields, that's still not going to take out, say, a Danube, but it'll certainly help, and hit up to 10 of the little buggers. Not a perfect spam solution, admittedly. Probably more useful vs large torps. Can be enhanced to have a 10% chance to disable one subsystem, but that's too little chance to bother with.
Given that it's the only one that's affected by exotic damage boosts, I think it's primarily there to give science officers more oomph to their arsenal, but it really does not age well or scale well with level.
Dangit, I forgot to check if that's including the bonus from the Romulan Energy Harness for plasma damage. Actual numbers might be lower.
The real power of the Singularity Jump is in the Accuracy and Perception debuff; if you've got a good cluster of enemies (preferably ones slowed in some fashion already, such as by warp plasma) you can keep them blind til they move away from it. And if you can arrange a Gravity Well (yours or someone else's) where you drop the Singularity Jump, I don't know if they CAN get away from it. PVE enemies generally don't unless they were at the edge of the effect already. But yeah, will give you enough time to cloak, spin, and decloak without having to worry about attacks from those in the SJ effect.
Since I haven't been relying on energy weapons so much, and certainly not the HCs and DHCs favored by escorts, I'm rather underwhelmed by the Overcharge, but I think those wanting the Raider/Escort playstyle will like it. It looks like it overwrites FAW, so it probably replaces Cannon Rapid Fire and Cannon Spray with its buff. It jacks up damage AND seems to remove weapon fire drain for the duration. For someone on a heavy energy weapon build, they'll probably find plenty of use for it; for myself, not so much. The description says it HAS to be used from cloak, but it appears to be lying, as it seems to work regardless of cloakedness.
Warbirds have federation strength hulls because they have federation (actually worse) turn rates. The thicker your hull, the lower your turn rate, it has nothing to do with the battle cloak. As I have said before, the peghqu and the chimera are carbon copies of one another on fed and kdf side, the one difference is that the peghqu has a battle cloak, and apparently the compensation for that is -8% shield modifier. The devs have apparently chosen to compensate for both the battle cloak and the singularity powers by giving warbirds lower power levels. That means lower damage, lower shields, lower turn/speed and lower heals/sci skills. Warbirds don't need their hulls and shield modifiers nerfed on top of that.
Bops have such weak hulls because they have such high turn rates. I presume the slightly lower shield modifier when compared to a raptor is payment for the battle cloak, and one less aft weapon and loss of an ensign boff to compensate for all universal seating. Yes, there are escorts/raptors out there with good boff setups, but the bop is versatile without needing to switch from one ship or another to change tactics, so don't underestimate the value of that.
I think that the increased surviveability translates literally into seeing the respawn timer less, but what we have to look at is: what is the cost of this surviveability? Do people not die as much, but still take more time to complete the mission because they had to run off and heal before coming back, which also gives the enemy time to heal? If so, that increase in surviveability is compensated for by the healing the enemy does and taking more time in the mission. That kind of survivability does not need to be 'balanced" or corrected. There's nothing wrong with that.
A 25% reduction in hull on a D'deridex would give one the hull of an escort and the turn of a carrier... that's an absolute no go, lol. I think the reduced power levels will ultimately be manageable. A few things they could do to make them more palatable though would be to remove the "shields don't regenerate below 25 power" since warbirds will drop below that. I really wish they would also remove the power drain from weapons, that way one does not have to pour 145 power into weapons just to consistently get 125 ish. They may have to rebalance weapon damage to compensate, but I think it would be preferable. They could also stand to buff engineering power enhancing consoles, it would be better for all factions, but in particular, a warbird could pop on a energy enhancer to whichever system they feel most needs the compensation. Once the power consoles are buffed, they could add a new console that gives bonus power across the board. So, for example, one could put +12 to one system, or with the new console, +3 to all power levels. (I use those more conservative numbers as I doubt they would go for +20 to a subsystem and +5 to all consoles... but that would be appreciated.
Given current crew mechanics, I would not call the Dhelan having a larger crew an "advantage" lol. All those extra crew will die/get a paper cut and go on strike just as quickly if not more so than a bop's crew and will take a year longer to get back to work than a bop's small crew.
I think the reasons why the devs are fine giving such a powerful escort type vessel an enhanced battle cloak because, if I"m not mistaken, it has very few science and engineering abilities available to it. So unlike a brel that has universals for high science and eng powers while also spamming torps and mines, this ship just has high tactical abilities for torps and mines only. Of course, the brel can go tac heavy too, the universals give it that versatility, but the Dhelan is stuck in tactical mode. So in theory I don't think it will be that big of a deal, or steal any, or at least not too much, of the brel's thunder, but we shall have to see.
I don't think the Dhelan will be able to use singularity powers while enhanced battle cloaked, battle cloak prevents the singularity from charging... so those would only be available should it choose to stay in the fight and not use enhanced battle cloak... so I don't really find that OP either.
Good point, we really don't know exactly what they mean by that. and the greater hull, healing and more eng/sci boffs will give more healing, though -10 weapons means that it'll take longer to kill enemies. Though if you use plasma you can get an extra 17.2% damage with the 2 piece weapon/console set and a plasma infused fleet console which should help offset the lower weapon power. Tetryon also gets a 7.6% boost with the new tholian rep items that could offset it a little bit.
Obviously hull reduction depends on the ship. The Mogai, Dhelan and T'Varo for instance have really high hulls for escort/birdofprey type ships, but as you also mention the b'rel has full universal slots to make up for it.
Your idea for a console is pretty much similar to my idea for a fleet singularity core that would add power to all 4 systems. I personally love my idea of a +7.5 power in each system for max singularity, which is similar to what they have now but it's only one system, have a unique or fleet one that would give it to all 4, though possibly add a drawback to make up for it.
good point with the crew, they are useless. lol
Yep, yup, yep...kind of hard to balance something new against something old when the old isn't quite balanced...
...even what's been said about trying to balance Romulan Cloaking against what's currently there - well, what's currently there...Cryptic's already been looking at addressing that.
So should they address that first - then balance against that...
...or should they not address that, try to balance against that, then maybe/maybe not ever get around to addressing it and then having to readdress the Romulan stealth?
Fun stuff...fun stuff...if you like hitting your thumb with the hammer instead of the nail.
If I am not mistaken, they have bumped it up from 7.5 to 15. It starts at 5 and goes to 15 with full charge. I've heard that the devs said they don't plan to put in a core that gives a bonus to weapons because everyone would take that core, so instead, they could put in a balanced core that gives +5 to shields, engines, and aux instead of 15 to one system so that one could choose to have all their bonus to one system or spread the love. But I still think those engineering power booster consoles need a real big buff to be worth anything at all. As it stands, rcs and neutronium (though some use other armors too) are the only eng consoles sane people use. The emergency force fields barely do anything to crew death/disable the power boosters barely give anything, EPS isn't necessary anymore now that weapon power drain springs back to normal after each volley, and structural integrity field generators increase hull heal, but as the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Personally, I think I would rather hit my thumb with the nail than the hammer... see what I did there?
What exactly has cryptic been looking at addressing and in what ways? What do they think is out of balance/needs fixing? And have they given any indication as to how they plan on fixing these issues?
You would kill them also quite easy without the singularity skills while still having the -10 Power, cause pve is easy like hell. I mean there were teams that did stfs in shuttles (don`t remember if it was elite or normal), i think that says all about how difficult pve is.
And the point was always how warbirds do in comparison with FED/KDF ships and not how they perform in generall in pve. In this comparison the -10 Power does hurt way more then the Singularity Abilities and the cloak giving you benefits.
Just for the fun, lets say a power console gives you 4 points of energy for a subsystem (that would be a mk 12 very rare) So to compensate the power disadvantage you would need 10 consoles. Taking aside that you can`t fit 10 consoles of that kind on your ship but ok.
I think most ppl here (except you) will agree, that the Singularity Powers and the cloak are not worth 10 console slots.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
A simple comparison...Fleet B'rel Retrofit vs. Fleet T'varo Retrofit:
Hull T'varo
The T'varo has 8250 more hull health than the B'rel.
Shield Modifier T'varo
The T'varo has 0.11 more shield mod than the B'rel.
Weapons T'varo
The T'varo has one more aft weapon than the B'rel.
Crew T'varo
The T'varo has 120 more crew than the B'rel.
Device Slots T'varo
The T'varo has one more device slot than the B'rel.
Turn Rate B'rel
The B'rel has 5 more turn than the T'varo.
Inertia Rating B'rel
The B'rel has 20 more inertia than the T'varo.
Impulse Modifier Unknown
Not sure what the modifier is the for the T'varo.
Weapon Power B'rel
The B'rel has +15 more weapon power than the T'varo.
Shield Power B'rel
The B'rel has +10 more shield power than the T'varo.
Engine Power B'rel
The B'rel has +5 more engine power than the T'varo.
Auxiliary Power B'rel
The B'rel has +10 more auxiliary power than the T'varo.
Tac Consoles T'varo
The T'varo has two more Tac consoles than the B'rel.
Eng Consoles B'rel
The B'rel has one more Eng console than the T'varo.
Sci Consoles B'rel
The B'rel has one more Sci console than the T'varo.
Cloak T'varo
Both have an Enhanced Battle Cloak, but Romulans have better cloaks.
BOFF Layout Debatable
The B'rel has: Cmdr/LCdr/Lt/Lt
The T'varo has: Cmdr/Lt/En, LCdr, Lt.
Cores Unknown
Without knowing all of the Warp Cores and Singularity Cores that will be available, it is too early to say at this point, no?
Abilities T'varo
The T'varo has access to the following Singularity Core Abilities that the B'rel does not: Plasma Shockwave, Quantum Absorption, Warp Shadows, Singularity Jump, and Singularity Overcharge.
Universal/Special Consoles T'varo
The T'varo has access to the Mega Torpedo Console from the T'varo Retrofit. It also has access to all of the T1-T4 Romulan Universal Consoles. It also has access to the T1-T4 Consoles from ally ships as well as those from "enemy" ships. Supposedly there is a 2pc set bonus for equipping both the T'varo Refit and Retrofit Consoles.
So...if we look at this in a different form:
T'varo
Hull, Shield Modifier, Weapons, Crew, Device Slots, Tac Consoles, Cloak, Abilities, and Universal/Special Consoles.
B'rel
Turn, Inertia, Weapon Power, Shield Power, Engine Power, Auxiliary Power, Eng Consoles, and Sci Consoles.
The T`varo Retrofit gets the same -10 to all subsystems . Only the t1 ships keep the -5 to all subsystems. So if you comparing a B`rel it has +10 to each subsystem compared to a T`varo Retrofit .
And crew does have basically not a real impact on the ships performance anyways, so having more crew doesn`t really matter.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
A Singularity Core that goes from +1.7 to Shields/Eng/Aux at charge zero to +5 S/E/A at charge 5? Not a bad idea, could fit well as a fleet or reputation store item. I'd probably stick with my Aux-buffing core myself, but there's no denying there would be advantages.
From the May 3rd patch notes:
Is it a case that those notes only apply to the T1 boats then? Was that clarified in the thread? I'll go look.
edit: There's nothing in that thread stating that it does not apply to the T'varo Retrofit or Fleet T'varo Retrofit. I know that the descriptions say certain things on the ship vendor - but again, the Fleet versions state they have the consoles that come from the Retrofits...copy/paste issues...etc, etc, etc.
I'd like some clarification on that. I'll go ahead and ask that in the May 3rd thread...
Hope you get an answer; currently on Tribble, even the T1 T'varo lists the 40 base power levels, as does the T5 versions.
I suspect, though, that since the rationale for the T'liss getting the 45 base power was to ensure its survivability until the captain can get efficiency and such, the T5 versions are not intended to have that benefit.
Just checked, Plasma Shockwave is NOT affected by Tac Team (which is to be expected, since it buffs your weapon skills rather than damage directly), but IS affected by Attack Pattern Omega's damage buff. Should make it a little more effective as a spam-sweeper if needed while in the middle of an alpha strike.
T5 Mogai + Reman Mk 12 set looks ABSOLUTELY WICKED!!!
Smooth but dark dark dark metallic hull, with a hint of purple in the reflected lights, and a few solitary brightly colored windows...I'm SO glad I snagged this before y'all switched the DS9 test vendor to Nukara stuff.
GREAT job on the appearance...I feel 20 times more stealthy from the appearance alone! ^_^
Yep that is the reason imo only the T1 get the 45 base power. They would have probably mentioned it if it would also be that way on the refit. Also why would they give 1 ship 45 basepower at t5? Guess which ship most ppl then would choose.
But ok i still hope we get the 45 base power back to all ships.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
The T'varo Retrofit (T5) has 40 base power to all subsystems, much like all other T5 warbords currently do. It has the standard Warbird +10 to Weapons and +5 to Engines at this time.
Thanks Archon. Saw the 40 base reply to the question in the May 3rd. The 10 Wep/5 Eng, though? Both the SA/T5 Retro and "VA"/Fleet list +15 Wep for the T'varo. Hrmm, I'll go modify my post again.
I had been wondering though when it comes to the Enhanced Battle Cloaks if there could be a pass on how they work even it results in special D-Store or C-Store torpedoes and mines or consoles. In the B'rels current status if it works like that with the T'varo it will not bode well.
I did provide an example in another thread about modeling certain future weapons for B'rel and T'varo for store applications to work like the marauder console where you have some base shield and hull damage and adequate balanced % procs to do additional damage.
Doh, I should have realized that...I even pointed out how some of it looked copy/paste - ala - placeholder. Thanks!
While doing a full pass on descriptions, what about looking at KDF ships as well?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=8865861#post8865861
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=869551
"Console Set Bonuses
Players who use the consoles from both the Refit and Retrofit versions of the ship ? for example, the Valdore?s Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator and the Mogai Retrofit?s Ionized Particle Beam ? will benefit from a set bonus for having both consoles equipped. Pick up a Legacy Pack for a great deal that packages the Refits and Retrofits together."
It will (most likely) for a few months but then it will get nerfed after their "metrics" shows a huge decline in sales of them. I just hope the new masters have learned that there is more to Star Trek than what is already in the game and that they don't have to keep making up things that aren't Trek just to keep content flowing.
Having the T5 Mogai, I can tell you that the Ionized Particle Beam's info panels shows that it DOES have a set bonus...but there's nothing filled in for it yet. I'm guessing the details of the set powers are still "To Be Determined."
1) First of all, I will assume that the subsystem power disadvantage is a counter to all the singularity powers warbirds possess. Nothing more, nothing less.
2) Then come the question of the smaller 'birds (T'Varo, Dhelan versions): I am afraid they currently have the best of both worlds, basically.
- They have the shields of FED escorts (better than KDF raptors, much better than KDF BoPs).
- Their hulls are as strong as FED escorts (slightly worse than KDF raptors, much better than KDF BoPs).
- Their turn is that of FED escorts (slightly better than KDF raptors, noticeably worse than KDF BoPs).
- Yet they have both Battlecloak (even enhanced for T'Varo Tier 5 versions) as KDF BoPs (better than KDF raptors, no cloak for FED escorts).
So those two warbirds are like FED escorts in all ways except they gain Battlecloak.
They have better shields, turn and cloak than KDF raptors, slightly worse hulls.
They have far better shields and hull than KDF BoPs. In most cases, have one more ensign Boff slot. Have one more aft weapon. Don't have (entirely) universal Boff seating.
I would advise a noticeable cut in hull. 10-15%. Battlecloak is a fragile piece of technology. Or give them only 2 aft weapon slots, a la KDF BoP.
3) Mogai versions. This one is basically a sort of destroyer, basically a slower bigger escort.
- shields of a FED escort (better than KDF raptors and much better KDF BoPs);
- hull of a KDF raptor (better than FED escorts and much better than KDF BoPs);
- turn of a KDF raptor (worse than FED escorts, much worse than KDF BoPs);
- 4/3 weapons (same as FED escorts and KDF raptors, better than KDF BoPs);
- battlecloak (same as KDF BoPs, better than KDF raptors, no cloak for FEDs).
If it had a regular cloak, it'd almost be a (better shielded) raptor, so then comparable to FED escorts (less turn, cloak, more hull). As it stands, it's somewhat stronger than what FEDs and KDF can muster.
Again, a slight cut in hull wouldn't harm. Probably no need for anything as drastic as on the previous two warbirds though.
4) D'Deridex and Ha'Apax. Those two end up being pretty balanced, surprisingly.
- turn of FED cruisers (and the Bortasqu') (much worse than KDF battle cruisers);
- hull of FED cruisers (and the Bortasqu') (better to somewhat better than KDF battle cruisers);
- shields as FEDs and KDF, pretty much;
- can load (dual) cannons, as KDF battle cruisers (quite an advantage over FED cruisers);
- battlecloak (better than regular cloak on KDF battlecruisers, much better than no cloak on FED cruisers).
While pretty much better than FED cruisers (no real wonder there), they end up comparable with KDF battle cruisers: They have somewhat more hull and Battlecloak, but much worse turn. Theoretically, the Battlecloak can even make the (dual) cannons usable on them, althought not as well as on KDF battle cruisers.
Here it's more of a personal wish than an advisement: again less hull and possibly a bit more turn (though not as much as KDF battle cruisers).
Overall, while none of the warbirds seems to be noticeably worse than other faction's offerings, they tend to be less and less "overpowered" as they grow in size.
(And I haven't even considered the very sad T'Varo retrofit/B'Rel retrofit situation about Enhanced Battlecloak. Really, the smaller the warbird, the more "out of proportion" its strenght is.)
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
The problem with this analysis is that your first premise is incorrect; the power level reduction is to counter BOTH the the singularity AND the battle cloak. They need to be factored together.
When you say warbird X has the shields of a Fed escort, that's not taking into account the regen and resistance penalty imposed by reduced shield power. They don't NEED a hull cut to be rendered squishy to balance the cloak, that is factored in elsewhere. When you say they have an extra weapon compared to the BoPs, that weapon is drawing from a reduced pool of powers, reducing the effectiveness of all the energy weapons. When you say it has the turning rate...well, you should have the idea by now.
The Singularity powers go hand in hand with the battle cloak; assuming one is a system that doesn't interact with the other is doing both a disservice.