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My Beams vs Cannons / Cruisers vs Escorts Thread
nicha0
Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
This is going to be my attempt to clarify some of the beam vs cannon, escort vs cruiser myths and complaining on the forums. This applies to PvE only, so please don't bring PvP arguements here as it is an entirely different type of game, there is a PvP sub-forum for a reason.
My main is a tac captain, flying escorts from the start, my focus was to always build an extremely durable escort, I don't know why, but its what I wanted. My HEC is capable of taking more hits then any other escort I've seen, at the same time it rarely isn't at the top of a combat logged fight, and no I don't use fighters.
Like many others I grew curious, I started a science alt, flew the science ships to level up, they are slow but pretty invincible in PvE.. but nobody wants a slow ship in STFs and studied as many hours as I could, there is no way to create a truely effective science ship anymore. I had my heart set on buying a Nebula pre-science nerf, it never happened.
I started a KDF tac, flew mostly BoPs, a Garumba, raptor, but the red UI is just terrible, not sure who wants to play with that. My last character was to start an engineer, I was determined to make it a useful engineering cruiser.. and these are my experiments.
The purpose here is to compare the damage output of different but similar enough configurations.
The gear selected is not the best of the best, most of the weapons were the cheapest of the exchange in the weapon category (XI purple) and the rest of the ship stays the same pretty much. In Hive Onslaught I generally install one monotanium armour in favour of a universal or embassy console just because of my high threat skill and the shear volume of incoming fire. Other than set pieces, none of the gear is overly expensive, XI Purple and the tactical consoles are lower than that, there is room for more damage.
My first ship:
When S7 hit I saw the romulan reputation system was ideal to make a plasma damage dealing beam boat. So this is what I made, our fleet not getting a T5 ship yard for some months I decided to go with the ever hated Fleet Excelsior.
Front Weapons: XI VR Plasma x 2, Romulan Experimental Plasma, Romulan Plasma Torpedo
Rear Weapons: Cutting Beam, XI VR Plasma x 3
Deflector: Assimilated XI
Shield: Assimilated XI
Engine: Assimilated XI
Device: Shield Bat, Aux Bat, Deuterium, Subspace Field Modulator
Engineering Consoles: Assimilated Module, Zero Point Energy, Tachyokinetic Converter
Science Consoles: Field Gen XI Rare x 1, Romulan Console (XI, +plasma +shield emitters +threat)
Tactical Consoles: Plasma XI Rare x 4
Lt Cmd Tac: TT1, BfaW2, BFaW3
Eng Cmd: EPtW1, RSP1, EPtS3, Aux2SIF3
Eng Lt: EPtW1, EPtS2
Eng Ens: ET1
Sci Lt: TSS1, HE2
Doffs: VR Conn x 2, VR Projectile x 2, R Energy Weapons (Beam)
Playstyle: Pretty simple ship to fly, just BfaW and manage your distance, turn around and throw some torpedos, rinse and repeat. If you need a reference watch some of youtube videos in my signature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5daCTS7YGc
Log Analysis:
Only two logs because I have videos of more, plus I have flown this ship enough times to know what it does.
CSE - 7.1
ISE - 9.6
HOSE - 6.2 (through video)
This is rivaling a high DPS escort and beating the more average escorts in that match.
Ship Purpose and Uses: The ship isn't optimal with the useless ensign eng slot, but it deals pretty impressive damage, and it can hold agro on escort focused fired ships as long as your BfaW isn't being spread too thin. This ship tanks and deals damage, often more than decent escort players, but under excellent escorts. Nothing is going to take it down outside of a HOSE, even then its not often.
Limits: Vulnerable to tractors and your long turns can make you lose agro for a few seconds.
Log screens:
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ec027-FE-CSE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/5emtv-FE-ISE.jpg
Of course limiting myself to a Fleet Excel isn't enough right? What about DHCs that are so OP? What about all the OP KDF cruisers?
Enter the Dkora, attainable by Feds, it has the Boff layout and most stats similar to a Fleet Assault Cruiser, 1 higher turn rate, less hull but a tiny bit more shields. Its pretty close, except that is can load cannons, and that makes it ideal to compare, what if fed cruisers could load cannons?
So the specs, very similar to the fleet excel
Front Weapons: XI VR Plasma x 2, Romulan Experimental Plasma, Romulan Plasma Torpedo
Rear Weapons: Cutting Beam, XI VR Plasma x 3
Deflector: Assimilated XI
Shield: Assimilated XI
Engine: Assimilated XI
Device: Shield Bat, Aux Bat, Deuterium, Subspace Field Modulator
Engineering Consoles: Assimilated Module, Zero Point Energy, Tachyokinetic Converter, Battle Module
Science Consoles: Field Gen XI Rare x 2, Romulan Console (XI, +plasma +shield emitters +threat)
Tactical Consoles: Plasma XI Rare x 3
Lt Cmd Tac: BFaW1, APB1, BFaW3
Tac Ens: TT1
Eng Cmd: EPtW1, RSP1, EPtS3, Aux2SIF3
Eng Lt: EPtW1, EPtS2
Sci Lt: TSS1, HE2
Doffs: VR Conn x 2, VR Projectile x 2, R Energy Weapons (Beam)
One less tac console will hurt your damage, but you gain a lot of turn. Later on I'll discover that HYT1 is a better ability than a back up BFaW1, though the difference isn't massive. I also wish I'd have taken videos of the Dkora going, but I didn't think of it at the time.
You can turn faster, and have access to debuffs with similar skills so this ship be a good DPS increase over the Fleet Excel.
CSE 7.7
ISE 8.0
KASE 7.6
HOSE 6.5
btw, CD is a very high DPS player, one of the highest that I see around.
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/60aou-DK-BA-CSE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/6he88-DK-BA-ISE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/e9hge-DK-BA-KASE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/8rlo3-DK-BA-HOSE.jpg
Overall I'll give the Dkora an edge damage, even though the FE did very well in ISE, I'm sure I could match that as well.
My main is a tac captain, flying escorts from the start, my focus was to always build an extremely durable escort, I don't know why, but its what I wanted. My HEC is capable of taking more hits then any other escort I've seen, at the same time it rarely isn't at the top of a combat logged fight, and no I don't use fighters.
Like many others I grew curious, I started a science alt, flew the science ships to level up, they are slow but pretty invincible in PvE.. but nobody wants a slow ship in STFs and studied as many hours as I could, there is no way to create a truely effective science ship anymore. I had my heart set on buying a Nebula pre-science nerf, it never happened.
I started a KDF tac, flew mostly BoPs, a Garumba, raptor, but the red UI is just terrible, not sure who wants to play with that. My last character was to start an engineer, I was determined to make it a useful engineering cruiser.. and these are my experiments.
The purpose here is to compare the damage output of different but similar enough configurations.
The gear selected is not the best of the best, most of the weapons were the cheapest of the exchange in the weapon category (XI purple) and the rest of the ship stays the same pretty much. In Hive Onslaught I generally install one monotanium armour in favour of a universal or embassy console just because of my high threat skill and the shear volume of incoming fire. Other than set pieces, none of the gear is overly expensive, XI Purple and the tactical consoles are lower than that, there is room for more damage.
My first ship:
When S7 hit I saw the romulan reputation system was ideal to make a plasma damage dealing beam boat. So this is what I made, our fleet not getting a T5 ship yard for some months I decided to go with the ever hated Fleet Excelsior.
Front Weapons: XI VR Plasma x 2, Romulan Experimental Plasma, Romulan Plasma Torpedo
Rear Weapons: Cutting Beam, XI VR Plasma x 3
Deflector: Assimilated XI
Shield: Assimilated XI
Engine: Assimilated XI
Device: Shield Bat, Aux Bat, Deuterium, Subspace Field Modulator
Engineering Consoles: Assimilated Module, Zero Point Energy, Tachyokinetic Converter
Science Consoles: Field Gen XI Rare x 1, Romulan Console (XI, +plasma +shield emitters +threat)
Tactical Consoles: Plasma XI Rare x 4
Lt Cmd Tac: TT1, BfaW2, BFaW3
Eng Cmd: EPtW1, RSP1, EPtS3, Aux2SIF3
Eng Lt: EPtW1, EPtS2
Eng Ens: ET1
Sci Lt: TSS1, HE2
Doffs: VR Conn x 2, VR Projectile x 2, R Energy Weapons (Beam)
Playstyle: Pretty simple ship to fly, just BfaW and manage your distance, turn around and throw some torpedos, rinse and repeat. If you need a reference watch some of youtube videos in my signature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5daCTS7YGc
Log Analysis:
Only two logs because I have videos of more, plus I have flown this ship enough times to know what it does.
CSE - 7.1
ISE - 9.6
HOSE - 6.2 (through video)
This is rivaling a high DPS escort and beating the more average escorts in that match.
Ship Purpose and Uses: The ship isn't optimal with the useless ensign eng slot, but it deals pretty impressive damage, and it can hold agro on escort focused fired ships as long as your BfaW isn't being spread too thin. This ship tanks and deals damage, often more than decent escort players, but under excellent escorts. Nothing is going to take it down outside of a HOSE, even then its not often.
Limits: Vulnerable to tractors and your long turns can make you lose agro for a few seconds.
Log screens:
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ec027-FE-CSE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/5emtv-FE-ISE.jpg
Of course limiting myself to a Fleet Excel isn't enough right? What about DHCs that are so OP? What about all the OP KDF cruisers?
Enter the Dkora, attainable by Feds, it has the Boff layout and most stats similar to a Fleet Assault Cruiser, 1 higher turn rate, less hull but a tiny bit more shields. Its pretty close, except that is can load cannons, and that makes it ideal to compare, what if fed cruisers could load cannons?
So the specs, very similar to the fleet excel
Front Weapons: XI VR Plasma x 2, Romulan Experimental Plasma, Romulan Plasma Torpedo
Rear Weapons: Cutting Beam, XI VR Plasma x 3
Deflector: Assimilated XI
Shield: Assimilated XI
Engine: Assimilated XI
Device: Shield Bat, Aux Bat, Deuterium, Subspace Field Modulator
Engineering Consoles: Assimilated Module, Zero Point Energy, Tachyokinetic Converter, Battle Module
Science Consoles: Field Gen XI Rare x 2, Romulan Console (XI, +plasma +shield emitters +threat)
Tactical Consoles: Plasma XI Rare x 3
Lt Cmd Tac: BFaW1, APB1, BFaW3
Tac Ens: TT1
Eng Cmd: EPtW1, RSP1, EPtS3, Aux2SIF3
Eng Lt: EPtW1, EPtS2
Sci Lt: TSS1, HE2
Doffs: VR Conn x 2, VR Projectile x 2, R Energy Weapons (Beam)
One less tac console will hurt your damage, but you gain a lot of turn. Later on I'll discover that HYT1 is a better ability than a back up BFaW1, though the difference isn't massive. I also wish I'd have taken videos of the Dkora going, but I didn't think of it at the time.
You can turn faster, and have access to debuffs with similar skills so this ship be a good DPS increase over the Fleet Excel.
CSE 7.7
ISE 8.0
KASE 7.6
HOSE 6.5
btw, CD is a very high DPS player, one of the highest that I see around.
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/60aou-DK-BA-CSE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/6he88-DK-BA-ISE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/e9hge-DK-BA-KASE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/8rlo3-DK-BA-HOSE.jpg
Overall I'll give the Dkora an edge damage, even though the FE did very well in ISE, I'm sure I could match that as well.
Delirium Tremens
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Post edited by nicha0 on
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Comments
Again, the load out is going to stay similar to before to keep things as even as possible.
Front Weapons: VR XI Plasma cannons x 3, Romulan Plasma Torpedo
Rear Weapons: Cutting Beam, XI VR Plasma turrets x 3
Deflector: Assimilated XI
Shield: Assimilated XI
Engine: Assimilated XI
Device: Shield Bat, Aux Bat, Deuterium, Subspace Field Modulator
Engineering Consoles: Assimilated Module, Zero Point Energy, Tachyokinetic Converter, Battle Module
Science Consoles: Field Gen XI Rare x 2, Romulan Console (XI, +plasma +shield emitters +threat)
Tactical Consoles: Plasma XI Rare x 3
Lt Cmd Tac: HYT1, APB1, CSV2
Tac Ens: TT1
Eng Cmd: EPtW1, RSP1, EPtS3, Aux2SIF3
Eng Lt: EPtW1, EPtS2
Sci Lt: PH1, HE2
Doffs: VR Conn x 2, VR Projectile x 2, R Energy Weapons (Cannon)
I decided 2 copies of CSV wasn't going to be as much of a benefit as a APB1, there was little else to do other than putting a THY1 on the ens tac slot. With all the tac players around and the Boff, it was not often my CSV2 wasn't ready or close to ready when I needed it. Dropping TSS for a PH is necessary just so you can get up close and not stopped dead by tractors endlessly. This configuration is much much lower is defense overall. I probably ran 4 CSEs before I got one I was happy with my performance, I didn't want to let any show be sub-optimal.
CSE 7.5
ISE 7.9
KASE 5.7 (a couple of poor PUGers might have messed this one up DPS wise)
The single cannons didn't do badly, but they weren't on par with the BAs, and if you factor the Dkora's 0.18 impulse mod into it, a standard Fed cruiser is going to drop back further, since they all have 0.15. This is a failure to me.
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/n905k-DK-SC-CSE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/9bdj0-DK-SC-ISE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/s4k8h-DK-SC-KASE.jpg
So onto DHCs, the most OP weapons EVER.
Again, keep in mind with the Dkora battle mode and the tachyokinetic converter the Dkora is going to out even a fleet excelsior. With its 0.18 impulse modifier it will get close to enemies faster and do more damage. None of these can be done by Fed Cruisers, a KDF will be able to get similar performances though.
The ship set up I won't repeat, there is no change except the front 3 weapons going to DHCs.
CSE 8.9
ISE 7.5
HOSE 4.9
Not sure how we missed KASE
These numbers aren't impressive, I mean, I practiced quite a bit, I was always on target, but the ship just couldn't deliver, not like an escort can. That narrow firing arc is a major penalty for a cruiser, and while CSE numbers were great, nothing even moves in CSE. The DHCs fall flat in HOSE because everything moves (and you need to actually defend) and pretty poor in ISE as well, even though its all super predictable stuff. The worst part about the whole thing? I failed to perform my function, I was supposed to get and hold agro for the entire area but I couldn't, I could only target and agro a small number directly in front of me.
So are DHCs that OP? I don't think so, they are pretty balanced.
The real shame is that outside of plasma beams, you can't do this damage with BAs, you don't get the set bonuses, the +plasma console, and the reduced drain from an array.
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/05nxq-DK-DHC-CSE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/xglzd-DK-DHC-ISE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/6gk4l-DK-DHC-HOSE.jpg
Of course we aren't done yet. We had to do something ridiculous.
Rainbow beam boat.
Same as the Dkora set up, one of each BA (except AP, so used another plasma) and all XI VR Directed energy modules
CSE 7.0
KASE 6.4
Same those guys getting beat by a rainbow boat, I was embarrassed just to be in it
Not as bad as most would think, huh?
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/679ds-DK-RBA-CSE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/0279k-DK-RBA-KASE.jpg
So, my last test for my own build's sake, I took my standard Dkora BA layout, remove BFaW1 and put HYT1 on it. I was impressed what it did for burst damage with the cannons.
Except.. I forgot to take off my directed energy modules and put my plasma infusers back on, so these logs are lower than they should be. uh, oops, there goes my creditiblility.
ISE 8.8
KASE 7.0
Put the right consoles on and I think it might be a winner. A good amount of burst and sustained damage
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/l6702-DK2-ISE.jpg
http://stofleetdt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/5b1h8-DK2-KASE.jpg
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Fleet excel w/ BAs
CSE 7.1 (Historically I would get 7.5)
ISE 9.6 (This is higher than normal 9.0 was the highest before)
HSE 6.2
Dkora w/BAs
CSE 7.7
ISE 8.0
KASE 7.6
HSE 6.5
Dkora w/SC
CSE 7.5
ISE 7.9
KASE 5.7 (Low due to poor Donatra fight, cannons + threat control is bad news)
Dkora w/DHC
CSE 8.9
ISE 7.5
HSE 4.9
Dkora w/Rainbow BAs
CSE 7.0
KASE 6.4
Dkora w/HYT and screwed up consoles
ISE 8.8
KASE 7.0
Without documented proof I can tell you my escort does
CSE 12-15k
ISE 9-12k
KASE 7-9k
HSE 6-7.5k
So, is this an issue of cannons and beams? It doesn't look like it.
Escorts vs Cruisers? Both the Excelsior and the Dkora put out very respectable damage in all the STFs along with serving as a tank and agro hog allowing other ships an easier game. While the tac escorts are certainly more bursty and efficient, the eng cruiser puts out very good damage. In CSE the cruiser can't compete with the loads and loads of stationary unshielded targets, that is escort's territory. In CSE your cruiser is damage capped by the BFaW mechanics. In ISE you (generally) have fewer targets to deal with, and while escorts are turning from a generator to the transformer to the two groups of spheres, the cruiser just flies straight to the next cube, the BA coverage area gets them perfectly. HSE benefits the cruiser most because of the tanking ability and a decent group is usually handling 3 enemies a time, which is pretty ideal for BFaW. KASE is tough to log right, an escort stuck on probes will have poor damage, and smacking on one transformer is also going to lower your damage, so here cruisers are pretty well off, as you can hit the probes and the transformer all at once.
Its pretty clear tac escorts are Op damage dealers, but they are bursty and situational. Put a tac in a cruiser, give it all those tac Boffs and would it do the same damage? Most of the time, sure, still won't be as bursty. If cruisers complain their DPS sucks, they need to learn how to play, seriously.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
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Fact is beams will never be on par with cannons because they serve different means.
Cannons have to be more powerful because they are needed on smaller/manuverable ships to go in and pack a punch. Where as beams are your more distance support.
Example beams = AC130 gunship, cannons = tanks on the ground.
They both serve and function as different roles. If you didn't have your escorts with cannons, then fights would be boring, drawn out, and totally not fun to play.
I don't want to sit in a cruiser fight that goes on and on for hours and hours. I prefer the faster style gameplay that being a tac in and escort offers. Ive played escort tac with cannons and tac/sci/engy in a cruiser with beams.
Beams I just find are boring, except the Cardassian galor beam builds.
I don't know what the long term suggestion is. Tacs are meant to deal damage, they are meant to take the fight to the enemy, they are meant to aim cannons and the enemys shield and rip a hole in them. Nothing in this game is/should/can be invincible.
DHCs are not OP. And beams can be just as powerful when building it right but remember this, escort pilots have to fly in at danger close ranges to do damage, hence DHC have the power they do. To even remotely suggest that someone should be able mto sit out at 10 clicks and do the same beam damage as an escort at close range is silly and ridiculous.
Nice testing btw OP. It re affirms that when ive played my scort and tac captains, my dps is lower, but I tend to open up enemy shields for the rest of my team to finish off.
Also, if cruisers have a problem with scorts its more than likely no teamwork is involved.
Im surprised a lot of people have no brains on this forum. That's not meant as a troll or insult but think about it. If you tractor beam a scort so he cant turn or bear his/her DHC, then he cant perform in the role intended. If only people were to develop tactics, situation awareness, learn how to incorporate counter measures into their builds, there would be less temper tantrums on the forums.
Cmon people how about we all do at least one thing today and that's learn how to play the game instead of being bitchy whiney1 cry babies
This allows them to do sustained damage.
They are always doing damage to a target if they are in range.
They can also shoot from farther away doing maxium damage.
Cruisers also have higher hulls and shields.
Escorts with cannons must face their target and tolerate frontal attacks.
They do burst damage if they are aligned with their target.
This means they are not always shooting a target due to the firing arcs.
They also must be very close to do maxium damage.
They have lower hull and shields.
What does this mean
They are balanced
Why
Cruisers may do more damage over time.
Escorts do burst damage, but they may not being shooting at their targets all the time.
I have seen many times when escorts do not get a shot in due to firing arcs before a target blows.
Why didn't you try to do the same with a free Assault Cruiser? Or Star Cruiser? Why use the Excelsior and the Dkora? The Excelsior costs zen and the fleet excelsior costs zen and resources. The Dkora's a lockbox ship.
A Vice Admiral can jump into a free RA Escort and set it up to outperform both of those expensive cruisers.
So why should they even bother with those cruisers when they can get more bang for less buck elsewhere?
Recorded combat logs demonstrate that Escorts do more damage over time in actual gameplay.
The only time I've experienced this is when a fellow escort or raider or raptor has had the firing arc and blows up the target itself. Or when the entire team is focusing fire, while I'm turning back around. That's not indicative of balance.
First DPS vary much depending on the other players. Are they shooting at my target? How fast are they killing their targets? Are they watching probes asf..
So if i have to watch for probes or bops in the stfs because i see the randoms ****ing it up then my dps is going down a lot.
So basically your tests arent worth much if u dont have the same conditions in each case.
Secondly your single cannon cruiser vs beam case doesnt reflect all the possible advantages if you dont play it right. Actually single cannons+turrets vs beams in a cruiser has so much more dmg potential because of the target arcs and torpo arcs overlapping and you are much more forward oriented in generell such that you really have to play a lot different than your normal cruiser. Also using this in a ship with more turn rate just kills sole of the advantages it normally has vs beams.
So whatever you think your results are... you can easily gain 2k dps here or loose 3k dps there depending on your playstyle and your teammates so i dont see the point.
You are asking why didn't I take a non-tactical cruiser to show good DPS? Its a dumb question. I already explained why, read and stop dismissing, your post is not valid.
The RA escorts can not tank well at all, off all the escorts in the log, what is blowing my damage away? Only c-store escorts by very few players. Any they aren't even blowing me away.
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The tests are run with largely premade groups, my DPS is very consistent match to match.
Conditions:
CSE the BoPs are taken by Rain, the other 4 do MRRMLL.
ISE - duh.. everyone is on the same page, what is the difference here?
KASE - I'm on one set of probes, and a cube, and the generators and transformers. Maybe your lack of performance indicates one person can only handle very basic jobs?
HSE - Take a chunk at a time and pray the Houston doesn't agro everything on the map, which it will ... you be the meat shield, the escorts do the damage, in theory, in practice I'm doing both?
Are you saying I don't know how to play a cannon based ship? Show me your damage logs, I'm calling you out. No more excuses, show me yours and I'll show you mine.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
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Take your best assault cruiser with beams against my escort, and i will only cycle EptS/tactical team to show you, that you cant really drop my shields. In fact, your beam arrays are likely to heal me through procs. hell even if you take escort with 5 tac consoles and beams you won't dent a thing. Take DHC and my facings will drop.
Beams are WAD, ie. they work fine in PvE and suck at everything else. Because the design of the game is that everything works "fine" in PvE.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
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Beams have clear advantages as do cannons. But the entire point of this debate is beams are only good in the hands of a tac captain, and we rarely use them. That leaves sci and eng and if they want to be effective at their envisioned roles, they can't be wasting specs into DPS. This combined with weak tac BO slots makes ENG and SCI sorely unremarkable for dishing out damage. This is where the problem begins and ends for beams. This is where the current BO ship layout system fails. This ideal of being restricted on BO abilities is ludicrous. Your BO layout dictates your success rather than your specs. We should have commander slots across the board, and specs decide how effective your abilities are.
As things stand, it just creates overpowered careers in their respective fields. It's all kinds of imbalance for this game.
I asked why you didn't use an assault cruiser. That IS a tactical cruiser. So, again, I ask, why did you use the D'Kora and the Excelsior, and not an assault cruiser?
The Patrol escort can tank pretty well.
I'm beginning to think your posts are the ones that are invalid.
Unfortunately, PvE isn't a good testbed for balancing things. NPCs are just going to sit there, regardless of what you do or do to them. They won't fly out of arcs, they won't heal themselves, they won't bring fresh shield facings to bear, they won't use resists, and they certainly won't use the new passives.
This is an eng cruiser, out DPSing tac escorts, did you even look at the logs?
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The generic free assault cruiser is not competitive, it is not highly tactical. If you want to outperform c-store/fleet escorts in free ships then go away..
The Dkora is similar to the fleet assault cruiser refit, except it can load cannons and give you the same platform but different weapons configurations.
The standard patrol escort used to tank ok, it hasn't in a long time, its dated, and since the STF changes in S6 it has suffered.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
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Nadeon inversion when I feel its going to give me the best shot
EPS is a nice boost when I miss using an EPtX power.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
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Oh, ok. Why didn't you use a Reagent or a Fleet Imperial?
Seriously, the D'Kora? Compare its damage potential to the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship then.
And what are the results?
Lockbox ship vs. Lockbox ship. I don't think anyone here really cares that the D'Kora is a decent cruiser compared to non-lockbox ships. And we all already know it can't do what a bug ship does.
If your testing is telling people that cruisers are fine, they just need to go out and get a lockbox ship ... that's really not very helpful.
If its virtually the same as the assault refit or does similar damage to the excelsior how is that a lock box? You don't listen, you only troll. This ship is similar to Fed cruisers, its being used as a multi-weapons platform for testing.
Don't come here and compare the most OP expensive ship in the whole game to anything else, you are just trolling.
The funny part, one of those KASE logs has someone in a bug, pure PvP build, only 4.4k DPS. They aren't the same game, and it isn't fair to compare. Don't bring PvE builds to PvP and vice versa.
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How do you obtain the D'Kora?
Don't go testing other lockbox ships and claiming that cruisers are fine. YOU are just trolling when you do that.
+30 to Starship Energy Weapon Damage and +30 to Starship Projectile Damage
+30 to Turn Rate. Which, when taking into account skills, puts the Dkora's turn rate in the teens.
+10 Weapon Power, +5 Engine Power, and -5 to Auxiliary Power. Which gives the Dkora an effective Weapons +15, Shields +5, Engines +10. While the Assault Cruiser Refit has Weapons +10, Shields +5, and Auxiliary +5.
While the Bridge Officer layout is (aside from the Assault Cruiser Refit's universal Lt slot) the same as the Assault Cruiser Refit, the fact that the Dkora can use Dual Cannons and the bonuses from the Battle Mode (which no one runs without it), makes them two very dissimilar vessels.
If you were to test using the Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit and the Assault Cruiser Refit, and with using pretty much the same setup (weapons and BOff skills), your results wouldn't be as criticized.
This sounds like it is being read off of the same old script. If cruisers are doing more sustained damage, then they should not regularly have damage that is regularly about a third of that of an escort. I've seen escorts that shrug off fire from three cruisers at a time, while singular cruisers fall to apex escort types like the Jem'Hadar or Fleet Defiant. I won't bother to comment about how cruisers can "shoot from farther away". However, I will note that cruisers can maintain fire on a target without actually dealing damage, due to accuracy vs. defence issues and the fact that cruisers have difficulty maintaining sufficient damage that can lower their shields or expose their hull.
Your comment is at odds with reality and means nothing. Try playing a PvP beam cruiser as an engineer, sometime. I've seen cruisers fire on one target all game and fail to cause ANY hull damage.
What trolls
I did test the AHCR, you didn't even read through the tests
The excelsior does nearly the same damage, better is some situations
The Dkora is a weapons testing platform meant to show that BAs, SC, and DHCs aren't all that different. If you think people aren't capable of adjusting to barely noticeable differences in power, it is why you can't get the same results.
Some matches had the battle mode off, completely by mistake, one match my ship was invisible, which was kinda funny. Probably didn't use that log.
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Do you understand how to test things? I don't think you do.
You can't test DHCs on fed cruisers, you can on a Dkora. s
Do not take my quote, edit it and post it as something it isn't
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
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I am not trolling and I did read through the tests and watched the video and looked at the logs. I said testing the Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit AND the Assault Cruiser Retrofit would result in less criticizing of results. I was trying to be helpful, but that was apparently lost on you.
To show that BAs, SC, and DHCs are not all that different, you could have just posted those results from the D'kora and been done with it. By running the same tests along side the Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit, it appears that you are attempting to compare the two ships together.
The power bonuses are more noticable than you may think, as they can make or break a build sometimes.
At present, my highest DPS results are 8.3k with my Fleet Assault Cruiser Retrofit, so I know full well what beams in a cruiser are capable of. I use APB2 and FAW2 with 3 Conn-APx Doffs and 2 Energy Weapons-Beams Doffs. And those are Spiral Wave disruptors. I tested using Romulan Beam Arrays and got similar results, so not really an improvement for me. If I were to run FAW3 instead of APB2, I may see results closer to yours, but I am fine with using APB to help out the team.
No, he is suggesting you compare the Fleet Excel to the Fleet Imperial. I think. Oh wells.
Just do what we do in our fleet when running a parser, put Beams on the Escort.
First Run Infected with Cannons
Then Run Infected again with Beams
If the person doing the testing is any good with Beams you will see...
Let me give you a hint who wins Starbase 24 more people with Beams or Cannons.
or
In a PVP who wins more the person with Beams or Cannons.
You can test DHCs on THIS fed cruiser.
I'm just not sure what your testing is proving other than lockbox ships like the D'Kora are more powerful options and the excelsior continues to be Geko's pet ship.
Thanks for that? I guess?
PvP needs to be modified to be more in line with PvE balance in a game where most people don't PvP, won't PvP, and certainly won't PvP if skill is that high of an entry barrier.
What we need is a "Mortal Strike/Sunder" mechanic that makes resistances and BO powers mean less in PvP.