Yes the MMO genre is all about grind. Because repetable content is the only way to keep players doing the same thing over and over, and they day they realize they have nothing to do they don't come back, or they come back later but won't be as interested in the game as those who never stopped playing. Returning players are always the first to leave and not to spend money.
*SNIP*
Many people would like to get instant rewards and gratification, but some frustration means the game is doing really well. And i'm not talking about quality of life bugs (they shouldn't exist) but about achieving specific goals. If people complain it's too slow/too hard to get it, it means the devs are successful, because you'll likely keep playing as long as this goal looks achievable.
Grind isn't just a "necessary evil" because devs can't produce content fast enough, it's the very reason why people keep playing such games. Players have long term goals, they want to do x, have y and win z, and as long as they consider it to be doable they'll keep playing. Of course as soon as it doesn't look achievable anymore people start to quit or create massive rant threads, like this one, but frustration and grind are exactly why MMOs are popular. Because you'll do whatever you have to do to get what you really want.
But there's a difference between repeatable content and life-sucking grind, and this game has moved well onto the side of the latter. We should be able to get a reasonable quantity of our grinds done in a fairly small fraction of our playing time, and they should be drawn out primarily by project cooldowns. There actually is a little bit of this with the reputation stuff, which had a relatively efficient project that you could do the whole thing with if you wanted, and a less efficient project you could use to supplement that if you wanted to.
Put it this way. We've heard before that they think their average player logs on 2-3 times a week for about 3 hours each time. That's 6-9 hours per week. As it stands, if you play the most efficient content possible for all of that time and buy a fair bit of dilithium on the dilithium exchange you're still not going to be a very good contributor to your fleet and keep your Reputation going. Now, that doesn't sound like a very active player to me, but I would say that if you log on every day for two hours you should be able to finish your grind in less than half of the time you play, probably around a third, or you should be able to play any content you want to do your grinding. That way you have time left to play any content you like, instead of having to do the same thing someone else says to over and over again. And if you want to get quicker progression with loads of time on your hands there should be those less efficient missions available to do that.
Yes the MMO genre is all about grind. Because repetable content is the only way to keep players doing the same thing over and over, and they day they realize they have nothing to do they don't come back, or they come back later but won't be as interested in the game as those who never stopped playing. Returning players are always the first to leave and not to spend money.
Wrong, the MMO genre is all about keeping people playing and having fun. So to keep people playing you create systems and content that are compelling and you ENSURE that content that must be repeated is kept fresh and entertaining.
You see here is where you have failed to understand one of the major issues with all MMO's and that is that there is a balancing act going on where you have to have players repeating things to extend the life of content but at the same time have to ensure that the repetition doesn't drive people away.
You talk of having nothing to do "driving people away" I talk about not having fun in game driving people away, much of that comes down to the same boring repetitive content. You see this is where your objectivity is lacking, you argue that not having things to do makes people leave yet you don't acknowledge that boredom from having repetition is equally a reason.
I don't play anymore because the grind is no fun and I frankly don't have the time to log in for 3 hours a day to keep things ticking over so rather than attempt to do so I simply don't play at all.
If you don't like "grind" well you should reconsider your own purposes: leading your own fleet (really? what's the point, can't you accept to be one among others in a large organization?), achieving your very own goals as soon as possible with a minimal investment in time.
No the point is I want to be part of something that has a social reward, I want to be around friends I want to contribute and I want the thing I am contributing to to have meaning. Human beings in general gain satisfaction and emotional return from feeling part of a close-knit thing, for being known and knowing other peoples within that thing. Being part of a large fleet just so I can get shinnies has no interest for me at all. Being part of a community of friends working to build something together is utterly compelling. It's just a shame that for casual gamers STO's system prohibits this.
I can tell you that even if people enjoy complaining about the MMOs they play (i've played only one with almost zero player complaint, this was a completely free without any profit game, and it received updtates once every two years) they also keep playing it. Everyone complains, but everyone keeps playing, as if it was a part of the game.
investment in time.
For me personally, I've never had any serious complaints in the way Turbine manage their MMO offerings or any complaints about lack of enjoyable repeatable content in DDO or LOTRO. Simple as that. DDO has never made me feel like it was boring or developed by group that was amateurish in it's internal and external communication and organisation.
Many people would like to get instant rewards and gratification, but some frustration means the game is doing really well. And i'm not talking about quality of life bugs (they shouldn't exist) but about achieving specific goals. If people complain it's too slow/too hard to get it, it means the devs are successful, because you'll likely keep playing as long as this goal looks achievable.
investment in time.
And this is where cryptic have failed the goals are simply not achievable in any sensible time for a person who can't devote 3 hours a day to the game. That's why they are failing to retain people like me who frankly don't have the time. This is also a major problem with the fleet system a group of close friends of say 5-10 in number have no chance to advancing their fleet by playing for 6 hours together on the weekend. One of the aims for fleets was for friends to join together and have fun in game and rep the rewards for teamwork, this as an aim has been left unfulfilled.
Grind isn't just a "necessary evil" because devs can't produce content fast enough, it's the very reason why people keep playing such games. Players have long term goals, they want to do x, have y and win z, and as long as they consider it to be doable they'll keep playing. Of course as soon as it doesn't look achievable anymore people start to quit or create massive rant threads, like this one, but frustration and grind are exactly why MMOs are popular. Because you'll do whatever you have to do to get what you really want.
As a conclusion there is no MMO without grind. Because it can't exist, or it won't be as successful, or it relies on completely different mechanics (addictions, greed, sex, like second life) and it's not really a game.
Lol "not really a game" I suppose Chess isn't a game either give me a break this is where your mask slips entirely because the idea that grind is the core component of a game and anything that has different mechanics "is not a game" is frankly a hilarious comment. I won't bother breaking it down because most people can see your statement for what it is.
That's the thing about MMO's too, an MMO keeps it's players when it has emotional meaning for the players, when they get a buzz from playing when they feel like they can achieve things. However with STO this is no longer the case for many people like myself. I think also for a lot of those who are here because it's Star Trek we have a general and increasing dislike for the game and it's mechanics and how with each passing patch it's getting further and further away from what we want our Star Trek Online experience to be.
2311, 2316, 2700, read them.
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
Look, you guys keep fixing things that don't need to be fixed and fail to fix things that do. Your players are getting pissed off and you're going to lose players (I'm on the verge of quitting myself). You've offered no truly new content. You've turned the game into a grind rather than a story based game (which is the primary draw). The content is lacking and the replay value is nill.
The fact is the foundry didn't need to be touched your "goals" are contrary to the fun of the players.
You haven't fixed the Crystalline Entity issue, you haven't fixed the STF glitches in the Hive yet that make it IMPOSSIBLE to beat. Yet you constantly TRIBBLE up the things that actually make the game worth playing.
I really don't understand why you developers keep doing this.
What needs to be done: Return the repeatable investigative officer report with fleet mark bonus.
Add new Episode Content that has actual story. Not this idiotic grind and go system you've created with the Borg Invasion planet, the Tholian Invasion Planet, and new Romulus.
Fix all the stupid glitches, broken missions, broken stfs, etc before doing anything else to the game.
Fix the economy so that the exchange isn't so bloated.
There is a lesson to be learned here, Cryptic/PWO. Your players are your source of income, treat us with respect or we leave. I just cancelled my sub and will not spend another dime here. Good riddance to me? Oh well right? Just how many more until it shows on your metrics?
The thing is this, removing the fleet marks wasn't your worst mistake in this, although it was very ill-conceived. The worst and most intolerable part was the blatant disrespect you've shown us. Not only did you treat our concerns as trivial in dastahl's second post but then you completely ignored our outcry since. This is insulting. You really should learn to listen to your players and atleast make an effort to correct your mistakes.
Since you obviously don't value our financial support, you leave me no choice but to withdraw mine.
I generally spend my day playing this game..... as a retiree, I have loads of time. I have also spent the majority of my entertainment funds here for the last 80 days. I have 3 toons maxed and am a member of the small fleets getting shafted with this. The effort to gain suitable amounts of fleet marks was already more than the rewards justified but this new situation is just plain ridiculous. After reading a great many of the posts contained here, I simply can not support a company that would treat their source of income so badly.
As stated before, there is a lesson to be learned here. I strongly urge you to learn it Cryptic before you go the way of so many before you.
A few observations that I'd like to offer my opinion on:
1) MMOs have grind. The best ones hide it the most. Devs cannot possibly add content as fast as people consume it (remember Season 2 when they added 8 KDF episodes and people were done within that many days?)
2) Where is the content? It's coming. The May update (which I'm still calling Season 8 until Cryptic actually gives it the formal name) will likely have a feature episode series, revamped KDF tutorial, and (one can only hope) content for levels 0-20. They've already stated they want another adventure zone in Tau Dewa. For more info, stay tuned to http://www.stowiki.org/Upcoming. Stahl has said they will begin giving more details at the end of March.
3) AFKers in maps. This has been a problem with fleet actions, STFs, and most recently the fleet mark events. Stahl has stated in this past week STOked Radio interview they are working on a vote-to-kick option. I don't expect this to happen instantly, but it'd be best if it comes before May.
4) The long list of grievances besides fleet marks. Yes, we know them. I bet you Cryptic knows them. I wasn't expecting them to all be solved, or even addressed, within a few days of the Feb 14 patch.
5) The fun factor. The changes to the Foundry make it pretty easy to get dilithium and even energy credits now. With the Feb 21 boost, even respectable amounts of fleet marks can be obtained. These are the three magic ingredients to upgrade your starbase. If it's still going slow, I don't think there's much that's going to happen to help your fleet.
6) Reputation system. This can be completed in about 36 days of projects. The amount of marks needed was surprisingly few (under 1900?). Since the separation between Season 7 and 8 is about 6 months, I'm not sure what more you could want in terms of XP advancement. They had already cut the time by half. The dilithium costs *are* too high for items since the dilithium cap is 8000.
7) Dilithium cap. Stahl has said that people are making more dilithium, which they want, and would raise the cap as people make more. There are a number of pros/cons to raising the cap. Pros would be people would likely play more if they can get dilithium and refine it that day. Happier players are less frustrated. The only two cons I can think of don't affect the players but rather Cryptic and PWE: it'd cost the dil/zen price to rise (thus, people would need to buy less zen from PWE to obtain dilithium) and players wouldn't need to log on as many days because they could refine as much dilithium in a smaller timeframe. So in other words it's money and possible decrease in play sessions they're waiting more heavily than player satisfaction and longer play sessions.
8) Tribble Test Server. Please, please, please test things for at least 48 hours. If testers identify bugs, hold the patch! That would help this game's stability so much and would at least make people feel like they're being listened to.
A few observations that I'd like to offer my opinion on:
2) Where is the content? It's coming. . They've already stated...
The lies we've been told are legion and subject of several STO Wiki pages. What we will end up with are more grind maps, grind-for-content, and 1 and 2 line "lore rewards."
If you really REALLY think they are going back to an episodic format you are sadly mistaken. May... we'll end up with a huge amount of content, but we'll have to grind to unlock it.
3) AFKers in maps. ((SNIP)) they are working on a vote-to-kick option. I don't expect this to happen instantly, but it'd be best if it comes before May.
Yep that's the end of the game right there. AFK'rs are bad enough but this will result in such severe abuse the game will be nigh-unplayable.
The lies we've been told are legion and subject of several STO Wiki pages. What we will end up with are more grind maps, grind-for-content, and 1 and 2 line "lore rewards."
If you really REALLY think they are going back to an episodic format you are sadly mistaken.
How confident do you feel there won't be any feature episodes coming in the next few months? I'd take that bet up
A few observations that I'd like to offer my opinion on:
1) MMOs have grind. The best ones hide it the most. Devs cannot possibly add content as fast as people consume it (remember Season 2 when they added 8 KDF episodes and people were done within that many days?)
The problem here is the replay value of Cryptics content is poor. The issue is not so much that grind exists but how it exists and is implemented in STO.
Firstly the systems that require missions to be grinded are unbalanced. This is a simple fact and the reason behind players looking for a solution by using Grinder missions and also the reason behind Cryptic increasing the volume of fleet marks. The problem is most of the other currency systems are unbalanced too.
Secondly the missions that people must repeat are often poor in terms of replay value because they offer little change or variation in experience. Let me give you an example from DDO, look at the Ruins of Gianthold adventure area. There are a total of 11 quests where all of them have internal and external variation that is to say they are different in style and content from one another and when you replay depending on the team you have assembled and their skills you will have a different experience.
In STO we simply don't have content that has that variation which makes it fun to replay. The only mission that for me even comes close is Infected Ground Elite and even that is relatively stodgy and linear.
You see look at the New Romulus adventure zone, if that was more like Gianthold where you had at least 6 VA level missions with different styles and puzzles in more open maps which you had to team with other players to complete and which required the presence of Tactical, Science and Engineering players to complete, they would have real replay value and then grinding Romulan marks would actually be fun.
Whether Cryptic have the manpower or the Engine has the capability (which it should if Neverwinter is ever going to have a chance to get anywhere close to DDO) is a different matter.
2) Where is the content? It's coming. The May update (which I'm still calling Season 8 until Cryptic actually gives it the formal name) will likely have a feature episode series, revamped KDF tutorial, and (one can only hope) content for levels 0-20. They've already stated they want another adventure zone in Tau Dewa. For more info, stay tuned to http://www.stowiki.org/Upcoming. Stahl has said they will begin giving more details at the end of March.
What Cryptic have hinted at for Season 8, is quite honestly disappointing, what is the use of any of this if the content we have to repeat to progress is simply not fun to repeat over and over. Whilst I enjoy episode series they have little replay value and do not tie into the reputation systems.
3) AFKers in maps. This has been a problem with fleet actions, STFs, and most recently the fleet mark events. Stahl has stated in this past week STOked Radio interview they are working on a vote-to-kick option. I don't expect this to happen instantly, but it'd be best if it comes before May.
Honestly I've not come into contact with this problem, but usually I play in premade groups rather than use public queues. However all the solutions that have been mentioned in my opinion cause more harm than they intend to solve. Vote to Kick is far too easy to abuse, for example I and some other trolls in it for the lulz could form a 3 man group and queue in public the two randoms that join us would then be at our mercy (could be 4:1 if it needs 4 votes to kick). We could just AFK ourselves with no fear of being kicked or we could play the mission out and kick players at the end before they get their loot or rewards.
To be honest I don't like any of the AFK fixes precisely because it will create far more powerful means to grief than it solves.
Of course there are more intelligent ways to attempt to fix the issue but nothing is full proof. For example you could have a hybrid system where the option to kick only pops up after a player is inactive for more than say 5 minutes. However even this is exploitable by AFK'rs who use Macros.
4) The long list of grievances besides fleet marks. Yes, we know them. I bet you Cryptic knows them. I wasn't expecting them to all be solved, or even addressed, within a few days of the Feb 14 patch.
I don't think anyone expected them to be, however it has served to harden up most of what was before relatively ephemeral player dissatisfaction and now many of us are looking into a permanent movement to improve the game through constructive criticism and solutions.
5) The fun factor. The changes to the Foundry make it pretty easy to get dilithium and even energy credits now. With the Feb 21 boost, even respectable amounts of fleet marks can be obtained. These are the three magic ingredients to upgrade your starbase. If it's still going slow, I don't think there's much that's going to happen to help your fleet.
As you state in your post below Dilithium is still capped and the reality is it is still in short supply due to the new sinks in the game that put pressure on players to do acquire other currencies as well as spend what dilithium they have on expensive personal reputation shops. All of this is reflected in the changed exchange rate of Dilithium:Zen.
6) Reputation system. This can be completed in about 36 days of projects. The amount of marks needed was surprisingly few (under 1900?). Since the separation between Season 7 and 8 is about 6 months, I'm not sure what more you could want in terms of XP advancement. They had already cut the time by half. The dilithium costs *are* too high for items since the dilithium cap is 8000.
The first issue with the reputation system is the time-gates. 36 days of projects for someone like me who may only get on for a few hours on Saturday during weekend would equal 36 weeks. Many of us work hard in our lives and when we get home we want to relax we don't take kindly to be forced into logging onto a game in order to have some chance of progressing in a sensible amount of time. It is far better to have a system where I can play on the weekend and know I can advance 1/2 a Tier or more in that weekend. Point here is Time-Gates are bad for casual players.
The result of the time gates for me was this, I played less on the weekends, that's all it did because there was no reason for me to play more as I hit the glass ceiling of the time gate. In Season 6 I could play maybe 6 or 7 hours on a Saturday usually trying to get Purple Tech, but it kept me coming back and I made a lot of friends on the STF channels.
I agree with you that the Dilithium costs of shop items are too much, as is the cost in term of Marks for shop items.
The point is that the Reputation system is simply terrible for casual players who cannot log in regularly to play. I'm guessing quite a large core of the paying demographic of this game work 5 days a week. Making it hard for us to enjoy the game is going to drive us away.
7) Dilithium cap. Stahl has said that people are making more dilithium, which they want, and would raise the cap as people make more. There are a number of pros/cons to raising the cap. Pros would be people would likely play more if they can get dilithium and refine it that day. Happier players are less frustrated. The only two cons I can think of don't affect the players but rather Cryptic and PWE: it'd cost the dil/zen price to rise (thus, people would need to buy less zen from PWE to obtain dilithium) and players wouldn't need to log on as many days because they could refine as much dilithium in a smaller timeframe. So in other words it's money and possible decrease in play sessions they're waiting more heavily than player satisfaction and longer play sessions.
As I said before with my above post, since Season 7 I have failed to reach the 8k cap, I simply don't believe what Stahl says and as he never backs it up with sourced evidence I have no reason to. I know a lot of people in game only reach cap by using an exploit in the game that I won't divulge. However the reality for me was that this restriction didn't make me want to log in every day to hit my cap it just made me decide the game wasn't worth it.
8) Tribble Test Server. Please, please, please test things for at least 48 hours. If testers identify bugs, hold the patch! That would help this game's stability so much and would at least make people feel like they're being listened to.
I cannot stress this enough a lot of the crappy bugs and poor balancing that hits holodeck could be reduced if they gave Tribble testers time to report feedback and if that feedback was actually listened to.
For a weekly patch there should be 7 days testing on Tribble for a Season Update there should at least be a month. Juts look at the disaster that was Season 7 when it first hit holodeck, totally unbalanced systems ridiculous lack of dilithium in STF's...
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
thisisoverlord, you bring up several good points. It seems like your response to #1 was that we need more episodes that have variability to add to their replay value. Definitely a good idea.
#2 makes it sound like you're against feature episodes as they currently are and any kind of non-storyline repeatable content. That means without #1 there's pretty much nothing to do.
#3 AFK issue I still am in a "wait and see" mentality. There's conflicting reports from players over "oh no, this is a terrible idea" to "it's really not exploited much at all in games where you don't compete for rolls at end". We don't know anything about Cryptic's vote system -- perhaps it's only for the first 5 minutes, or up to a certain point? Or maybe it will only let you vote on someone if certain criteria are met? We don't know.
#4 This would make sense but reading the hundreds of posts in this thread after the Feb 21 patch make it seem like people were shocked Cryptic didn't announce some grand plan to solve everything.
#6 I think 36 "days" of projects is rather generous to fully max out a system. Could you imagine if a starbase could be totally maxed out after 1,000,000 fleet marks without a time gate? The 500 man fleets would need 2000 per person and some people would be sitting on Tier 5 starbases after a week and then saying "now what do we do?". Alas, if you only logged in on Saturday and Sunday each week to start the reputation projects (which in terms of marks is very, very cheap -- EC it's non-trivial for many) -- you'd be done in 18 weeks. That's over 4 months to from Tier 0 to Tier 5 but then the duty officer commendation system took people several months to max out originally as well. Since we're currently 6 months between seasons that gives one plenty of time to have accrued very large quantities of marks and dilithium and then buy whatever they want with the 2 minute store projects.
Goals that take more than a day or a week are not innately bad in an MMO. It just doesn't make sense to have you become the Romulans' best friend from a long weekend of running mark missions -- a reputation takes some degree of time to develop.
#8 As a word of caution, most seasons are actually tested for a month on Tribble. Though they're also patched numerous times throughout. That still doesn't excuse Cryptic from not responding to Tribble players' feedback before it hits Holodeck.
thisisoverlord, you bring up several good points. It seems like yuor response to #1 was that we need more episodes that have variability to add to their replay value. Definitely a good idea.
Yes and more importantly that they are team based and not solo play and that they are tied into the currency and systems via end-rewards and have genuine replay value.
#2 makes it sound like you're against feature episodes as they currently are and any kind of non-storyline repeatable content. That means without #1 there's pretty much nothing to do.
more accurately I am against mission content that has little replay value, However I am a realist Cryptic are a relatively small development house and STO simply doesn't have the resources to build the sheer depth of repayable team based mission content that say DDO has. The main point here is no content and poor content have much the same effect on people I.e. they get bored and move on. So for me I see no difference between Story missions that people finish in a week and never play again and no content at all. Like you said the KDF missions were finished in a week. I'd much rather Cryptic devoted time to re-playable diverse story missions that require teaming and have rewards tied to to systems and progressions at End-Game.
#3 AFK issue I still am in a "wait and see" mentality. There's conflicting reports from players over "oh no, this is a terrible idea" to "it's really not exploited much at all in games where you don't compete for rolls at end". We don't know anything about Cryptic's vote system -- perhaps it's only for the first 5 minutes, or up to a certain point? Or maybe it will only let you vote on someone if certain criteria are met? We don't know.
Indeed, in general though from what I've seen of Vote-to-Kick systems is they introduce more griefing than they solve. But you are right we should wait to see exactly how they do this, though considering the lack of creativity displayed when the team were deciding how to implement guilds I am not holding my breath.
#4 This would make sense but reading the hundreds of posts in this thread after the Feb 21 patch make it seem like people were shocked Cryptic didn't announce some grand plan to solve everything.
I've not noticed that most of the posts I've read here, the ones that I remember (and I've read nearly all of them) tend to be relatively realistic in their appraisal of what needs to be done going forwards. There is no magic wand in this instance and in addition I don't think you can ask too much from such a small team even if as we are told it has "doubled" it's staff.
#6 I think 36 "days" of projects is rather generous to fully max out a system. Could you imagine if a starbase could be totally maxed out after 1,000,000 fleet marks without a time gate? The 500 man fleets would need 2000 per person and some people would be sitting on Tier 5 starbases after a week and then saying "now what do we do?". Alas, if you only logged in on Saturday and Sunday each week to start the reputation projects (which in terms of marks is very, very cheap -- EC it's non-trivial for many) -- you'd be done in 18 weeks. That's over 4 months to from Tier 0 to Tier 5 but then the duty officer commendation system took people several months to max out originally as well. Since we're currently 6 months between seasons that gives one plenty of time to have accrued very large quantities of marks and dilithium and then buy whatever they want with the 2 minute store projects.
36 Days being generous all depends on the average time a person is able to play per week. The main issue here is that there is a relatively diverse playerbase, there are those that play all day every day and are either unemployed or annuitants others who play a lot on the weekend and others like me who play when they can, when we can fit it around work. Honestly I don't think they have the balance right. With regards to fleets I think we all know that most other games have a scaling solutions to deal with this, STO just doesn't have a development team creative enough to come up with a proper scaled solution.
Goals that take more than a day or a week are not innately bad in an MMO. It just doesn't make sense to have you become the Romulans' best friend from a long weekend of running mark missions -- a reputation takes some degree of time to develop.
I agree but this isn't the issue with STO, the issue with STO is that it takes months of playing poor quality boring content. If you were playing fun repeated content that remained fresh achieving a goal over a matter of a month or two wouldn't be a problem for most. But when I log in look at my Romulan reputation see how long it takes to do just 1 tier and the boring content (which pays very little in marks) one must do to progress, I just fell like not bothering at all.
#8 As a word of caution, most seasons are actually tested for a month on Tribble. Though they're also patched numerous times throughout. That still doesn't excuse Cryptic from not responding to Tribble players' feedback before it hits Holodeck.
The problem was Season 7 wasn't tested over a month at all, only bits of the finished the Season were tested, other parts didn't even get a chance at being tested.
What was needed was a full month for the finished project to be tested.
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
I agree that the content is woefully poor, and this is due in part to the limitation of the engine. Things that should have high variance don't at all. For example; in "Everything Old is New" something that they could have done with this (since it's a time travel episode) is secondary encounter; a smarter Spock NPC different interactions with each new temporal incursion. Yet nothing has been done to make the episode more than what it was. Or how about a synergy reaction if one is flying a constitution class ship from the zen store?
The fact is that the content is lacking, and the storylines are so predictable that after one or two replays the content is old.
Adventure zones are just as problematic. While all MMOs have grinding, these zones and the way the rewards are presented make the grinding necessary for the game. This is absolutely stupid.
As for fixing the STFs because of the AFKrs, the simplest answer is to redo the STFs to make them playable on one's own or in a group. So you can choose who you go in with as a team.
On a different note: I've also canceled my subscription. I have no interest in paying for a game that has Devs who don't listen to their players.
A: the 'TRIBBLE' only lasted a week
B: Fleet Marks were added in other places, in far greater numbers than those removed
C: they release promos and sales every now and then, regardless of what's going on in the game; this one is no different.
In other words, just get over it; it's not worth getting upset about.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
A: the 'TRIBBLE' only lasted a week
B: Fleet Marks were added in other places, in far greater numbers than those removed
C: they release promos and sales every now and then, regardless of what's going on in the game; this one is no different.
In other words, just get over it; it's not worth getting upset about.
The is far from being from being settled to satisfaction. If you are content, good for you. I am not. If you had bothered to read all of the concerns listed here, you would have seen that. And you would have seen that I'm not alone.
Don't presume to speak for me about what is worth getting upset about. If you are happy with the current state of the game, then you have no place in this discussion. You are free to post what you wish where you wish on here but don't just pop in and say "all is good, get over it". It's not.
The fixes that you claim that have solved the problem, haven't. Take the time to read the posts and you will see that.
The is far from being from being settled to satisfaction. If you are content, good for you. I am not. If you had bothered to read all of the concerns listed here, you would have seen that. And you would have seen that I'm not alone.
Don't presume to speak for me about what is worth getting upset about. If you are happy with the current state of the game, then you have no place in this discussion. You are free to post what you wish where you wish on here but don't just pop in and say "all is good, get over it". It's not.
The fixes that you claim that have solved the problem, haven't. Take the time to read the posts and you will see that.
I'll say this: somewhere between 70% and 90% of the comments in this thread happened before the addition of more Fleet Marks. And I'll say it again: the added Fleet Marks far outnumber the ones removed.
So I feel there isn't a problem, and I feel you're simply holding onto an illogical reason to dislike Cryptic, PWE... or whatever it is you have issues with. Or possibly you have absurdly high expectations of what is deemed satisfactory.
But clearly you will be not swayed, so I'll leave it at that.
To be honest the above poster is out of touch with the root issues. The problem wasn't lack off FM's the root problem is Cryptic delivering systems that are not balanced.
Thats's it in a nutshell with regards to currencies.
He needs to read post 2311 and 2700.
Just read your 2700 post.
I understand that's been the case since ever, but I do not feel it is an issue, personally I simply have no problem with systems being rushed/bugged/or filled with exploits that require more effort to remove later
I know it sounds incredulous, but I mean it.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The is far from being from being settled to satisfaction. If you are content, good for you. I am not. If you had bothered to read all of the concerns listed here, you would have seen that. And you would have seen that I'm not alone.
Don't presume to speak for me about what is worth getting upset about. If you are happy with the current state of the game, then you have no place in this discussion. You are free to post what you wish where you wish on here but don't just pop in and say "all is good, get over it". It's not.
The fixes that you claim that have solved the problem, haven't. Take the time to read the posts and you will see that.
To be honest the above poster is out of touch with the root issues. The problem wasn't lack off FM's the root problem is Cryptic delivering systems that are not balanced. This is why players continue to apply fixes to broken systems like Dilithium by exploiting loopholes in the games reward systems.
Thats's it in a nutshell with regards to currencies.
I understand that's been the case since ever, but I do not feel it is an issue, personally I simply have no problem with systems being rushed/bugged/or filled with exploits that require more effort to remove later
I know it sounds incredulous, but I mean it.
For sure and I'm sure there are a number of people who feel that way and just enjoy the game for what it is,
People like me however cannot, so it really just comes down with what we're happy to put up with and on that point we diverge.
I like the honesty though it's refreshing and I understand it too, especially looking at how small Cryptic is a s developer and how obviously difficult it is for them to do this franchise the justice it deserves because they have to stick to a cookie cutter approach to the game as they believe it's the most efficient way to use the resources they have.
I personally think however they could a hell of a lot to improve even with the current staff numbers and man hours.
For sure and I'm sure there are a number of people who feel that way and just enjoy the game for what it is,
People like me however cannot, so it really just comes down with what we're happy to put up with and on that point we diverge.
I like the honesty though it's refreshing and I understand it too, especially looking at how small Cryptic is a s developer and how obviously difficult it is for them to do this franchise the justice it deserves because they have to stick to a cookie cutter approach to the game as they believe it's the most efficient way to use the resources they have.
I personally think however they could a hell of a lot to improve even with the current staff numbers and man hours.
If I read your posts correctly what you want is basically top quality content you don't have to replay much to achieve your unreasonable goals considering the little time you can invest in the game. All those who have time to play almost everyday are of course "unemployed".
I'm really fond of your logic. What you need isn't an mmo though, it's rather solo games you can play whenever you want with a very high quality repetable content. I'd advise you RTS. These should be games for you. I played that for many years and still have fun with that when i find some time.
What you could also consider for a few minutes is:
- having lower expectations. Games can't be build around your own needs. We've been toled many times that the game is run by metrics, and the average player is supposed to play 3-4 times a day for 4h sessions. Consequently the game will be most enjoyable for these players.
- You can't expect having all your starbase projects running constantly with a very small casual fleet. Reasons: see above. Being in a small fleet is a choice no one should be blamed for, but no one should blame cryptic for the choices he made either. Mega guilds always had an edge whatever the MMO is and this isn't going to change because Mr Thisisoverlord has awesome ideas about mmo design so that games can adapt to his needs.
- Very few MMOs are casual-player friendly, because the less time you spend on a game, the less you get to see what's in the cash store, and the less you feel the need to buy stuff improving your game experience. Casuals can fill instances pretty well but in no way they are a reliable source of income. If you're an exception then it's great for STO but don't think everyone is or should be like you please.
If I read your posts correctly what you want is basically top quality content you don't have to replay much to achieve your unreasonable goals considering the little time you can invest in the game. All those who have time to play almost everyday are of course "unemployed".
Wrong I want top quality content I can replay and enjoy with friends, that will offer realistic progression to someone who can't log on 24/7 and can only do a few hours or so over the weekend, Season 6 was fine for me because I could log on for a bunch of hours and get a chance to get end game rewards without being time gated or having massive sinks to contend with. Furthermore my fleet was relatively healthy and growing.
Secondly, those that can play 24/7 are either unemployed or annuitants in the main, I find it intriguing that you mentioned that I stated unemployed but failed to mention that I also stated annuitants, either you don't know what the second is or, you were intentionally trying to spin what I said to be a negative or bigoted statement about members of the playerbase which clearly was not. Well done letting yourself down by engaging in some poor and frankly obvious spin. :cool:
I'm really fond of your logic. What you need isn't an mmo though, it's rather solo games you can play whenever you want with a very high quality repetable content. I'd advise you RTS. These should be games for you. I played that for many years and still have fun with that when i find some time.
What you could also consider for a few minutes is:
- having lower expectations. Games can't be build around your own needs. We've been toled many times that the game is run by metrics, and the average player is supposed to play 3-4 times a day for 4h sessions. Consequently the game will be most enjoyable for these players.
Actually no, firstly assuming I've never played an RTS is rather odd, secondly perhaps you would at least attempt to be more rational and go for a single player RPG comparison like say Kotor, or Neverwinter Nights. However I can see that you've put little thought in this post.
I think maybe you may have in your haste to blurt out this post got the figures wrong, 3-4 times a day for 4hr sessions is 12 to 16 hours a day perhaps this is some kind of Freudian slip and instead of mentioning the DStahl(tm) minimum time requirements which would be 1, 4hr session a day you put in your own playing habits.
- You can't expect having all your starbase projects running constantly with a very small casual fleet. Reasons: see above. Being in a small fleet is a choice no one should be blamed for, but no one should blame cryptic for the choices he made either. Mega guilds always had an edge whatever the MMO is and this isn't going to change because Mr Thisisoverlord has awesome ideas about mmo design so that games can adapt to his needs.
Actually being in a small fleet isn't an issue and in-fact wasn't an issue in Season 6 things were going quite swimmingly, however seriously unbalanced systems drove many of my fleet members away from the game or into bigger fleets. Even this wouldn't be so bad if I could recruit other players but no one wants to be in a T2 or T3 fleet and have to do work they all want to join T4's and up these days. There is no incentive to do otherwise.
Clearly you haven't played that many MMO's I use DDO as an example a lot because I play it and small guilds there get bonuses for being small. I'm sure there are countless other MMO's that have good system for encouraging small guilds which are more often than not way more fun to be a part of than mega large ones.
You seem to believe I am the only one voicing these concerns, and therefore seek to disparage or marginalize the people other than myself who also share similar concerns and conclusions.
- Very few MMOs are casual-player friendly, because the less time you spend on a game, the less you get to see what's in the cash store, and the less you feel the need to buy stuff improving your game experience. Casuals can fill instances pretty well but in no way they are a reliable source of income. If you're an exception then it's great for STO but don't think everyone is or should be like you please.
This last comment is hilarious, the point is in Season 6 I player for 6+ hours every weekend and even a few hours of an evening during the week, because it was fun, this is not the case now, however what the Season 7 debacle highlighted for me was an underlying pattern now confirmed by the development team itself of rushed and unfit systems and code and a lack of repeatable enjoyable content.
You know I've played DDO for 3 years and I only have 4 characters at Level 17 I haven't even reached my first Epic level yet, but the game is fresh and the content you have to repeat is fun and there is so much of it you have a real choice about what you want to repeat. Making out that MMO's aren't for me or people like me who don't have the time to put hours in everyday is exaggeration at best and hypocritical from someone who is attempting to castigate me for excluding the way others play above my own habits. The truth is there are no doubt plenty of MMO's out there that attract and retain the patronage of people who have a similar lifestyle to myself it's just a shame for me that one of the Franchises that I truly love has an MMO that simply doesn't live up to the features and content other MMO's have.
Regardless of all this I think we can both agree that the rushed systems, patches and updates that cause imbalance and bugs in the game is something that has become a pattern of behaviour for Cryptic and does not benefit the game or it's players, regardless of what you think of my personal playing habits those things effect all players especially the bugs and much of it could be solved by better internal practices and interaction with Tribble testers.
It's great if you can play when you want whenever you want, it's also great if you have supreme knowledge of the game and know how to get everything you need in an hour of so of play, but don't think everyone is or should be like you.:)
I found it disappointing that you didn't wish to attempt to engage me in any meaningful discussion.
Phyrexians alternative point of view at least offered content that was worth reading and considering.
Heh , that's funny because I've heard a different interpretation to this sale ... , as someone has suggested that the Andorian whale ships (look @ their front) ain't selling so well .
Too much grind for so ridiculous reward content.
Cost of everything is way beyhond the line.
This lead to a non-enjoyable grindfest game type.
Cryptic : your game in its actual state is NOT FUN for long time player.
That is why so many people quit after few months.
Very few stay more than few months.
So many much more enjoyable games out there.
Heh , that's funny because I've heard a different interpretation to this sale ... , as someone has suggested that the Andorian whale ships (look @ their front) ain't selling so well .
Two weeks in and they are still debugging the hell out of them.. I've seen two in-game so far TWO.
One of my friends has the set and has severe buyer's remorse.
This ship was highly anticipated, for a very very long time and Cryptic released in an utterly broken state at the height of a player revolt.
I for one have been spending far far less time in game, I haven't since last week and I don't anticipate participating more... until Cryptic has a major attitude adjustment. Certain things need to be fixed. Dan's attitude twords the players needs a total 180. And quality needs to improve 10000 percent.
At this point however I am going to say based on past performance "ain't gonna happen."
Two weeks in and they are still debugging the hell out of them.. I've seen two in-game so far TWO.
One of my friends has the set and has severe buyer's remorse.
This ship was highly anticipated, for a very very long time and Cryptic released in an utterly broken state at the height of a player revolt.
I for one have been spending far far less time in game, I haven't since last week and I don't anticipate participating more... until Cryptic has a major attitude adjustment. Certain things need to be fixed. Dan's attitude twords the players needs a total 180. And quality needs to improve 10000 percent.
At this point however I am going to say based on past performance "ain't gonna happen."
You've seen Two you've seen more than me as I've seen 0. Asking Cryptic and Stahl to change there attitude will be like asking a leopard to change it's spots it ain't gonna happen
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Two weeks in and they are still debugging the hell out of them.. I've seen two in-game so far TWO.
One of my friends has the set and has severe buyer's remorse.
This ship was highly anticipated, for a very very long time and Cryptic released in an utterly broken state at the height of a player revolt.
I for one have been spending far far less time in game, I haven't since last week and I don't anticipate participating more... until Cryptic has a major attitude adjustment. Certain things need to be fixed. Dan's attitude twords the players needs a total 180. And quality needs to improve 10000 percent.
At this point however I am going to say based on past performance "ain't gonna happen."
never buy a car without a test drive
i guess putting new ships to test on a test server before live launch doesnt compute to them >_>
unless its cheap enough i wont get one without being able to test it
i wish they would make all of the ships free on tribble server so we could try them out before buying on holodeck. til then ill stick to ships off the EC exchange
yea i know they want the "buzz" of the launch of new ships, but they keep getting bad buzz. they burn players often enough and soon no one will buy new ships for fear of getting another lemon
fool me once shame on u, fool me twice shame on me
"Tickle us, do we not laugh? Prick us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, shall we not revenge?" -General Chang
You've seen Two you've seen more than me as I've seen 0. Asking Cryptic and Stahl to change there attitude will be like asking a leopard to change it's spots it ain't gonna happen
I'm not sure where either of you have been playing but I've seen tons of them. Seems like every STF I've been in has 1-2 of them, most Starbase 24's have at least 5, and I got stuck in a gorn minefield with 4 of them.
I have read this thread every day since it was posted, I understand your reasons behind the changes but I feel, as many others do, that there is major disconnect. I know that I don't post a lot, mostly due to the fact that the point I was going to make was stated.
Here is my take, as I see it.
On February 13, Task Force Spectre first Fleet to hit tier 5 Starbase
On February 14, Patch makes changes to reward system
Increasing Dilithium and Energy Credits rewards
Decreasing Fleet Marks rewards
This creates a backlash, many players state that Fleet Marks rewards are too low, current reward levels greatly favoring large fleets.
On February 14, This thread was started. Once again, Dastahl made the claim that all the metrics so that fleets need more Dilithium, but still not willing to increase the refinement rate. I still don't see how more Dilithium ore will help if I can earn more than 8,000 doing my daily grinds.
On February 19, Dastahl returns with changes inbound. Timeline is soon, "Thursday" or May...... wait and see.
On February 21, Patch increases and adds Fleets Marks to may missions. This made many of us ask why not put them in with the last patch or wait to change the foundry mission till this patch.
I am a day one vet, with a lifetime. I also run small fleet, about 7 active members. We just leveled to a tier 2 Starbase. Doing this is too much like a job, not to mention the work needed on our embassy or our Klingon Fleet. We're not looking for a handout, and we shouldn't have to join a large faceless fleet. These guys are my friends, we like the fact that our fleet is, ours. There are many larger fleets but this one is ours.
Like a stated in the beginning, this how I saw these events.
As soon as a fleet hit tier 5, they had to slow fleet progression. Of course large fleets need more Dilithium. Players will only give some of their 8,000 per day because there many things that need Dilithium other their fleet. But, there is only one place to spend fleet marks. Fleet change is needed.
As many people have stated, there are some very good ideas on how to help all fleets. As I see it there are three "sizes" of fleets: under 20 active players, 50ish active players and over 100 active players.
I only wish Cryptic would care enough to start a round table with fleets of different sizes to address changes that are needed. Randomly pick a few fleets from each tier size to improve the fleet system in the game.
I'm not sure where either of you have been playing but I've seen tons of them. Seems like every STF I've been in has 1-2 of them, most Starbase 24's have at least 5, and I got stuck in a gorn minefield with 4 of them.
Yeah, some people have to get a grip on reality. The Andorian ship is far more popular than- lets say for ex. the Vesta was when it was released.
I've seen tons of them as well, atm looks like every 4th or 5th ship I see is Andorian escort.
I only wish Cryptic would care enough to start a round table with fleets of different sizes to address changes that are needed. Randomly pick a few fleets from each tier size to improve the fleet system in the game.
That, at the very least would be a start.
Fleet issues aren't the only elephant in the room though - Cryptic's fast-becoming-cyclic policies of removing in-game currencies and then having to hastily and clumsily patch them back in is eroding what little trust and goodwill a large number of this community have left.
This game won't survive as a costly full-on Asian grinder MMO - and that's exactly where it's headed - all you have to do is look at what Season 7 attempted to remove and what was added as 'content' to see what the roadmap for STO is.
Since the change, I personally went from getting about 300 Fms a day with various missions, and maybe 1 foundry mission.. to getting about 800 a day with the HUGE increase in rewards on all FM maps. This was a huge +++ to Cryptic and Dan.. IMO.
This change has greatly increased the number of players in the Deferi zone , the Nukara zone, and all Fleet events. Heck, the zones give you 72 FMs per hard completed a day.. you can finish all 3 in the time it took you to get through one long lousy Foundry mission. 60 < 216 .. which would you rather????
Flame away but I am right, this was a good decision. We are playing an MMORPG, not a RPG.
I am a day one vet, with a lifetime. I also run small fleet, about 7 active members. We just leveled to a tier 2 Starbase. Doing this is too much like a job, not to mention the work needed on our embassy or our Klingon Fleet. We're not looking for a handout, and we shouldn't have to join a large faceless fleet. These guys are my friends, we like the fact that our fleet is, ours. There are many larger fleets but this one is ours.
Since the change, I personally went from getting about 300 Fms a day with various missions, and maybe 1 foundry mission.. to getting about 800 a day with the HUGE increase in rewards on all FM maps. This was a huge +++ to Cryptic and Dan.. IMO.
Firstly, this thread is no longer about Fleet Marks alone, the imbalance in the Fleet Marks system that essentially made it a broken system was just a symptom for a far wider rot which comes down to Cryptic consistently rushing systems and content that is bugged, broken or unbalanced.
The change only happened because the players attempted to fix the broken FM system themselves by using a loophole in the Foundry rewards, one that may I add was put in there by Cryptic, why on earth it was a 30 minute repeatable missions I don't know.
Either way the change was needed, but I don't think they should be receiving any plaudits for offering an unbalanced currency system and then eventually when sufficiently moved out of their lackadaisical pattern of behaviour come up with the bright idea of immediatly shutting down the player driven fix and waiting a whole week to do the simple task of spreading FM's to other parts of the game.
It was horribly handled and whilst on the FM front we eventually got a pretty good solution the way it was done and the fact that it was only done because the players essentially forced Cryptics hand does not fill me with confidence especially as this was not the first time their amateurish behaviour has led to players having to pressure them into changes, I.e. Loot drops and Dilithium in STF's.
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
Comments
But there's a difference between repeatable content and life-sucking grind, and this game has moved well onto the side of the latter. We should be able to get a reasonable quantity of our grinds done in a fairly small fraction of our playing time, and they should be drawn out primarily by project cooldowns. There actually is a little bit of this with the reputation stuff, which had a relatively efficient project that you could do the whole thing with if you wanted, and a less efficient project you could use to supplement that if you wanted to.
Put it this way. We've heard before that they think their average player logs on 2-3 times a week for about 3 hours each time. That's 6-9 hours per week. As it stands, if you play the most efficient content possible for all of that time and buy a fair bit of dilithium on the dilithium exchange you're still not going to be a very good contributor to your fleet and keep your Reputation going. Now, that doesn't sound like a very active player to me, but I would say that if you log on every day for two hours you should be able to finish your grind in less than half of the time you play, probably around a third, or you should be able to play any content you want to do your grinding. That way you have time left to play any content you like, instead of having to do the same thing someone else says to over and over again. And if you want to get quicker progression with loads of time on your hands there should be those less efficient missions available to do that.
Wrong, the MMO genre is all about keeping people playing and having fun. So to keep people playing you create systems and content that are compelling and you ENSURE that content that must be repeated is kept fresh and entertaining.
You see here is where you have failed to understand one of the major issues with all MMO's and that is that there is a balancing act going on where you have to have players repeating things to extend the life of content but at the same time have to ensure that the repetition doesn't drive people away.
You talk of having nothing to do "driving people away" I talk about not having fun in game driving people away, much of that comes down to the same boring repetitive content. You see this is where your objectivity is lacking, you argue that not having things to do makes people leave yet you don't acknowledge that boredom from having repetition is equally a reason.
I don't play anymore because the grind is no fun and I frankly don't have the time to log in for 3 hours a day to keep things ticking over so rather than attempt to do so I simply don't play at all.
No the point is I want to be part of something that has a social reward, I want to be around friends I want to contribute and I want the thing I am contributing to to have meaning. Human beings in general gain satisfaction and emotional return from feeling part of a close-knit thing, for being known and knowing other peoples within that thing. Being part of a large fleet just so I can get shinnies has no interest for me at all. Being part of a community of friends working to build something together is utterly compelling. It's just a shame that for casual gamers STO's system prohibits this.
For me personally, I've never had any serious complaints in the way Turbine manage their MMO offerings or any complaints about lack of enjoyable repeatable content in DDO or LOTRO. Simple as that. DDO has never made me feel like it was boring or developed by group that was amateurish in it's internal and external communication and organisation.
And this is where cryptic have failed the goals are simply not achievable in any sensible time for a person who can't devote 3 hours a day to the game. That's why they are failing to retain people like me who frankly don't have the time. This is also a major problem with the fleet system a group of close friends of say 5-10 in number have no chance to advancing their fleet by playing for 6 hours together on the weekend. One of the aims for fleets was for friends to join together and have fun in game and rep the rewards for teamwork, this as an aim has been left unfulfilled.
Lol "not really a game" I suppose Chess isn't a game either give me a break this is where your mask slips entirely because the idea that grind is the core component of a game and anything that has different mechanics "is not a game" is frankly a hilarious comment. I won't bother breaking it down because most people can see your statement for what it is.
That's the thing about MMO's too, an MMO keeps it's players when it has emotional meaning for the players, when they get a buzz from playing when they feel like they can achieve things. However with STO this is no longer the case for many people like myself. I think also for a lot of those who are here because it's Star Trek we have a general and increasing dislike for the game and it's mechanics and how with each passing patch it's getting further and further away from what we want our Star Trek Online experience to be.
2311, 2316, 2700, read them.
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
#2311#2700#2316#2500
The fact is the foundry didn't need to be touched your "goals" are contrary to the fun of the players.
You haven't fixed the Crystalline Entity issue, you haven't fixed the STF glitches in the Hive yet that make it IMPOSSIBLE to beat. Yet you constantly TRIBBLE up the things that actually make the game worth playing.
I really don't understand why you developers keep doing this.
What needs to be done: Return the repeatable investigative officer report with fleet mark bonus.
Add new Episode Content that has actual story. Not this idiotic grind and go system you've created with the Borg Invasion planet, the Tholian Invasion Planet, and new Romulus.
Fix all the stupid glitches, broken missions, broken stfs, etc before doing anything else to the game.
Fix the economy so that the exchange isn't so bloated.
Oh...and start respecting your players.
The thing is this, removing the fleet marks wasn't your worst mistake in this, although it was very ill-conceived. The worst and most intolerable part was the blatant disrespect you've shown us. Not only did you treat our concerns as trivial in dastahl's second post but then you completely ignored our outcry since. This is insulting. You really should learn to listen to your players and atleast make an effort to correct your mistakes.
Since you obviously don't value our financial support, you leave me no choice but to withdraw mine.
I generally spend my day playing this game..... as a retiree, I have loads of time. I have also spent the majority of my entertainment funds here for the last 80 days. I have 3 toons maxed and am a member of the small fleets getting shafted with this. The effort to gain suitable amounts of fleet marks was already more than the rewards justified but this new situation is just plain ridiculous. After reading a great many of the posts contained here, I simply can not support a company that would treat their source of income so badly.
As stated before, there is a lesson to be learned here. I strongly urge you to learn it Cryptic before you go the way of so many before you.
1) MMOs have grind. The best ones hide it the most. Devs cannot possibly add content as fast as people consume it (remember Season 2 when they added 8 KDF episodes and people were done within that many days?)
2) Where is the content? It's coming. The May update (which I'm still calling Season 8 until Cryptic actually gives it the formal name) will likely have a feature episode series, revamped KDF tutorial, and (one can only hope) content for levels 0-20. They've already stated they want another adventure zone in Tau Dewa. For more info, stay tuned to http://www.stowiki.org/Upcoming. Stahl has said they will begin giving more details at the end of March.
3) AFKers in maps. This has been a problem with fleet actions, STFs, and most recently the fleet mark events. Stahl has stated in this past week STOked Radio interview they are working on a vote-to-kick option. I don't expect this to happen instantly, but it'd be best if it comes before May.
4) The long list of grievances besides fleet marks. Yes, we know them. I bet you Cryptic knows them. I wasn't expecting them to all be solved, or even addressed, within a few days of the Feb 14 patch.
5) The fun factor. The changes to the Foundry make it pretty easy to get dilithium and even energy credits now. With the Feb 21 boost, even respectable amounts of fleet marks can be obtained. These are the three magic ingredients to upgrade your starbase. If it's still going slow, I don't think there's much that's going to happen to help your fleet.
6) Reputation system. This can be completed in about 36 days of projects. The amount of marks needed was surprisingly few (under 1900?). Since the separation between Season 7 and 8 is about 6 months, I'm not sure what more you could want in terms of XP advancement. They had already cut the time by half. The dilithium costs *are* too high for items since the dilithium cap is 8000.
7) Dilithium cap. Stahl has said that people are making more dilithium, which they want, and would raise the cap as people make more. There are a number of pros/cons to raising the cap. Pros would be people would likely play more if they can get dilithium and refine it that day. Happier players are less frustrated. The only two cons I can think of don't affect the players but rather Cryptic and PWE: it'd cost the dil/zen price to rise (thus, people would need to buy less zen from PWE to obtain dilithium) and players wouldn't need to log on as many days because they could refine as much dilithium in a smaller timeframe. So in other words it's money and possible decrease in play sessions they're waiting more heavily than player satisfaction and longer play sessions.
8) Tribble Test Server. Please, please, please test things for at least 48 hours. If testers identify bugs, hold the patch! That would help this game's stability so much and would at least make people feel like they're being listened to.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
The lies we've been told are legion and subject of several STO Wiki pages. What we will end up with are more grind maps, grind-for-content, and 1 and 2 line "lore rewards."
If you really REALLY think they are going back to an episodic format you are sadly mistaken. May... we'll end up with a huge amount of content, but we'll have to grind to unlock it.
Yep that's the end of the game right there. AFK'rs are bad enough but this will result in such severe abuse the game will be nigh-unplayable.
How confident do you feel there won't be any feature episodes coming in the next few months? I'd take that bet up
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
The problem here is the replay value of Cryptics content is poor. The issue is not so much that grind exists but how it exists and is implemented in STO.
Firstly the systems that require missions to be grinded are unbalanced. This is a simple fact and the reason behind players looking for a solution by using Grinder missions and also the reason behind Cryptic increasing the volume of fleet marks. The problem is most of the other currency systems are unbalanced too.
Secondly the missions that people must repeat are often poor in terms of replay value because they offer little change or variation in experience. Let me give you an example from DDO, look at the Ruins of Gianthold adventure area. There are a total of 11 quests where all of them have internal and external variation that is to say they are different in style and content from one another and when you replay depending on the team you have assembled and their skills you will have a different experience.
In STO we simply don't have content that has that variation which makes it fun to replay. The only mission that for me even comes close is Infected Ground Elite and even that is relatively stodgy and linear.
You see look at the New Romulus adventure zone, if that was more like Gianthold where you had at least 6 VA level missions with different styles and puzzles in more open maps which you had to team with other players to complete and which required the presence of Tactical, Science and Engineering players to complete, they would have real replay value and then grinding Romulan marks would actually be fun.
Whether Cryptic have the manpower or the Engine has the capability (which it should if Neverwinter is ever going to have a chance to get anywhere close to DDO) is a different matter.
What Cryptic have hinted at for Season 8, is quite honestly disappointing, what is the use of any of this if the content we have to repeat to progress is simply not fun to repeat over and over. Whilst I enjoy episode series they have little replay value and do not tie into the reputation systems.
Honestly I've not come into contact with this problem, but usually I play in premade groups rather than use public queues. However all the solutions that have been mentioned in my opinion cause more harm than they intend to solve. Vote to Kick is far too easy to abuse, for example I and some other trolls in it for the lulz could form a 3 man group and queue in public the two randoms that join us would then be at our mercy (could be 4:1 if it needs 4 votes to kick). We could just AFK ourselves with no fear of being kicked or we could play the mission out and kick players at the end before they get their loot or rewards.
To be honest I don't like any of the AFK fixes precisely because it will create far more powerful means to grief than it solves.
Of course there are more intelligent ways to attempt to fix the issue but nothing is full proof. For example you could have a hybrid system where the option to kick only pops up after a player is inactive for more than say 5 minutes. However even this is exploitable by AFK'rs who use Macros.
I don't think anyone expected them to be, however it has served to harden up most of what was before relatively ephemeral player dissatisfaction and now many of us are looking into a permanent movement to improve the game through constructive criticism and solutions.
As you state in your post below Dilithium is still capped and the reality is it is still in short supply due to the new sinks in the game that put pressure on players to do acquire other currencies as well as spend what dilithium they have on expensive personal reputation shops. All of this is reflected in the changed exchange rate of Dilithium:Zen.
The first issue with the reputation system is the time-gates. 36 days of projects for someone like me who may only get on for a few hours on Saturday during weekend would equal 36 weeks. Many of us work hard in our lives and when we get home we want to relax we don't take kindly to be forced into logging onto a game in order to have some chance of progressing in a sensible amount of time. It is far better to have a system where I can play on the weekend and know I can advance 1/2 a Tier or more in that weekend. Point here is Time-Gates are bad for casual players.
The result of the time gates for me was this, I played less on the weekends, that's all it did because there was no reason for me to play more as I hit the glass ceiling of the time gate. In Season 6 I could play maybe 6 or 7 hours on a Saturday usually trying to get Purple Tech, but it kept me coming back and I made a lot of friends on the STF channels.
I agree with you that the Dilithium costs of shop items are too much, as is the cost in term of Marks for shop items.
The point is that the Reputation system is simply terrible for casual players who cannot log in regularly to play. I'm guessing quite a large core of the paying demographic of this game work 5 days a week. Making it hard for us to enjoy the game is going to drive us away.
As I said before with my above post, since Season 7 I have failed to reach the 8k cap, I simply don't believe what Stahl says and as he never backs it up with sourced evidence I have no reason to. I know a lot of people in game only reach cap by using an exploit in the game that I won't divulge. However the reality for me was that this restriction didn't make me want to log in every day to hit my cap it just made me decide the game wasn't worth it.
I cannot stress this enough a lot of the crappy bugs and poor balancing that hits holodeck could be reduced if they gave Tribble testers time to report feedback and if that feedback was actually listened to.
For a weekly patch there should be 7 days testing on Tribble for a Season Update there should at least be a month. Juts look at the disaster that was Season 7 when it first hit holodeck, totally unbalanced systems ridiculous lack of dilithium in STF's...
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
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#2 makes it sound like you're against feature episodes as they currently are and any kind of non-storyline repeatable content. That means without #1 there's pretty much nothing to do.
#3 AFK issue I still am in a "wait and see" mentality. There's conflicting reports from players over "oh no, this is a terrible idea" to "it's really not exploited much at all in games where you don't compete for rolls at end". We don't know anything about Cryptic's vote system -- perhaps it's only for the first 5 minutes, or up to a certain point? Or maybe it will only let you vote on someone if certain criteria are met? We don't know.
#4 This would make sense but reading the hundreds of posts in this thread after the Feb 21 patch make it seem like people were shocked Cryptic didn't announce some grand plan to solve everything.
#6 I think 36 "days" of projects is rather generous to fully max out a system. Could you imagine if a starbase could be totally maxed out after 1,000,000 fleet marks without a time gate? The 500 man fleets would need 2000 per person and some people would be sitting on Tier 5 starbases after a week and then saying "now what do we do?". Alas, if you only logged in on Saturday and Sunday each week to start the reputation projects (which in terms of marks is very, very cheap -- EC it's non-trivial for many) -- you'd be done in 18 weeks. That's over 4 months to from Tier 0 to Tier 5 but then the duty officer commendation system took people several months to max out originally as well. Since we're currently 6 months between seasons that gives one plenty of time to have accrued very large quantities of marks and dilithium and then buy whatever they want with the 2 minute store projects.
Goals that take more than a day or a week are not innately bad in an MMO. It just doesn't make sense to have you become the Romulans' best friend from a long weekend of running mark missions -- a reputation takes some degree of time to develop.
#8 As a word of caution, most seasons are actually tested for a month on Tribble. Though they're also patched numerous times throughout. That still doesn't excuse Cryptic from not responding to Tribble players' feedback before it hits Holodeck.
My STOwiki page | Reachable in-game @PhyrexianHero
Fed Armada: Section 31 (level 730, 2700+ members)
KDF Armada: Klingon Intelligence (level 699, 2100+ members)
Yes and more importantly that they are team based and not solo play and that they are tied into the currency and systems via end-rewards and have genuine replay value.
more accurately I am against mission content that has little replay value, However I am a realist Cryptic are a relatively small development house and STO simply doesn't have the resources to build the sheer depth of repayable team based mission content that say DDO has. The main point here is no content and poor content have much the same effect on people I.e. they get bored and move on. So for me I see no difference between Story missions that people finish in a week and never play again and no content at all. Like you said the KDF missions were finished in a week. I'd much rather Cryptic devoted time to re-playable diverse story missions that require teaming and have rewards tied to to systems and progressions at End-Game.
Indeed, in general though from what I've seen of Vote-to-Kick systems is they introduce more griefing than they solve. But you are right we should wait to see exactly how they do this, though considering the lack of creativity displayed when the team were deciding how to implement guilds I am not holding my breath.
I've not noticed that most of the posts I've read here, the ones that I remember (and I've read nearly all of them) tend to be relatively realistic in their appraisal of what needs to be done going forwards. There is no magic wand in this instance and in addition I don't think you can ask too much from such a small team even if as we are told it has "doubled" it's staff.
36 Days being generous all depends on the average time a person is able to play per week. The main issue here is that there is a relatively diverse playerbase, there are those that play all day every day and are either unemployed or annuitants others who play a lot on the weekend and others like me who play when they can, when we can fit it around work. Honestly I don't think they have the balance right. With regards to fleets I think we all know that most other games have a scaling solutions to deal with this, STO just doesn't have a development team creative enough to come up with a proper scaled solution.
I agree but this isn't the issue with STO, the issue with STO is that it takes months of playing poor quality boring content. If you were playing fun repeated content that remained fresh achieving a goal over a matter of a month or two wouldn't be a problem for most. But when I log in look at my Romulan reputation see how long it takes to do just 1 tier and the boring content (which pays very little in marks) one must do to progress, I just fell like not bothering at all.
The problem was Season 7 wasn't tested over a month at all, only bits of the finished the Season were tested, other parts didn't even get a chance at being tested.
What was needed was a full month for the finished project to be tested.
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
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I agree that the content is woefully poor, and this is due in part to the limitation of the engine. Things that should have high variance don't at all. For example; in "Everything Old is New" something that they could have done with this (since it's a time travel episode) is secondary encounter; a smarter Spock NPC different interactions with each new temporal incursion. Yet nothing has been done to make the episode more than what it was. Or how about a synergy reaction if one is flying a constitution class ship from the zen store?
The fact is that the content is lacking, and the storylines are so predictable that after one or two replays the content is old.
Adventure zones are just as problematic. While all MMOs have grinding, these zones and the way the rewards are presented make the grinding necessary for the game. This is absolutely stupid.
As for fixing the STFs because of the AFKrs, the simplest answer is to redo the STFs to make them playable on one's own or in a group. So you can choose who you go in with as a team.
On a different note: I've also canceled my subscription. I have no interest in paying for a game that has Devs who don't listen to their players.
Got screwed, now they want us to pay them.
A: the 'TRIBBLE' only lasted a week
B: Fleet Marks were added in other places, in far greater numbers than those removed
C: they release promos and sales every now and then, regardless of what's going on in the game; this one is no different.
In other words, just get over it; it's not worth getting upset about.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The is far from being from being settled to satisfaction. If you are content, good for you. I am not. If you had bothered to read all of the concerns listed here, you would have seen that. And you would have seen that I'm not alone.
Don't presume to speak for me about what is worth getting upset about. If you are happy with the current state of the game, then you have no place in this discussion. You are free to post what you wish where you wish on here but don't just pop in and say "all is good, get over it". It's not.
The fixes that you claim that have solved the problem, haven't. Take the time to read the posts and you will see that.
So I feel there isn't a problem, and I feel you're simply holding onto an illogical reason to dislike Cryptic, PWE... or whatever it is you have issues with. Or possibly you have absurdly high expectations of what is deemed satisfactory.
But clearly you will be not swayed, so I'll leave it at that. Just read your 2700 post.
I understand that's been the case since ever, but I do not feel it is an issue, personally
I know it sounds incredulous, but I mean it.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
To be honest the above poster is out of touch with the root issues. The problem wasn't lack off FM's the root problem is Cryptic delivering systems that are not balanced. This is why players continue to apply fixes to broken systems like Dilithium by exploiting loopholes in the games reward systems.
Thats's it in a nutshell with regards to currencies.
He needs to read post 2311 and 2700.
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For sure and I'm sure there are a number of people who feel that way and just enjoy the game for what it is,
People like me however cannot, so it really just comes down with what we're happy to put up with and on that point we diverge.
I like the honesty though it's refreshing and I understand it too, especially looking at how small Cryptic is a s developer and how obviously difficult it is for them to do this franchise the justice it deserves because they have to stick to a cookie cutter approach to the game as they believe it's the most efficient way to use the resources they have.
I personally think however they could a hell of a lot to improve even with the current staff numbers and man hours.
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If I read your posts correctly what you want is basically top quality content you don't have to replay much to achieve your unreasonable goals considering the little time you can invest in the game. All those who have time to play almost everyday are of course "unemployed".
I'm really fond of your logic. What you need isn't an mmo though, it's rather solo games you can play whenever you want with a very high quality repetable content. I'd advise you RTS. These should be games for you. I played that for many years and still have fun with that when i find some time.
What you could also consider for a few minutes is:
- having lower expectations. Games can't be build around your own needs. We've been toled many times that the game is run by metrics, and the average player is supposed to play 3-4 times a day for 4h sessions. Consequently the game will be most enjoyable for these players.
- You can't expect having all your starbase projects running constantly with a very small casual fleet. Reasons: see above. Being in a small fleet is a choice no one should be blamed for, but no one should blame cryptic for the choices he made either. Mega guilds always had an edge whatever the MMO is and this isn't going to change because Mr Thisisoverlord has awesome ideas about mmo design so that games can adapt to his needs.
- Very few MMOs are casual-player friendly, because the less time you spend on a game, the less you get to see what's in the cash store, and the less you feel the need to buy stuff improving your game experience. Casuals can fill instances pretty well but in no way they are a reliable source of income. If you're an exception then it's great for STO but don't think everyone is or should be like you please.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Wrong I want top quality content I can replay and enjoy with friends, that will offer realistic progression to someone who can't log on 24/7 and can only do a few hours or so over the weekend, Season 6 was fine for me because I could log on for a bunch of hours and get a chance to get end game rewards without being time gated or having massive sinks to contend with. Furthermore my fleet was relatively healthy and growing.
Secondly, those that can play 24/7 are either unemployed or annuitants in the main, I find it intriguing that you mentioned that I stated unemployed but failed to mention that I also stated annuitants, either you don't know what the second is or, you were intentionally trying to spin what I said to be a negative or bigoted statement about members of the playerbase which clearly was not. Well done letting yourself down by engaging in some poor and frankly obvious spin. :cool:
Actually no, firstly assuming I've never played an RTS is rather odd, secondly perhaps you would at least attempt to be more rational and go for a single player RPG comparison like say Kotor, or Neverwinter Nights. However I can see that you've put little thought in this post.
I think maybe you may have in your haste to blurt out this post got the figures wrong, 3-4 times a day for 4hr sessions is 12 to 16 hours a day perhaps this is some kind of Freudian slip and instead of mentioning the DStahl(tm) minimum time requirements which would be 1, 4hr session a day you put in your own playing habits.
Actually being in a small fleet isn't an issue and in-fact wasn't an issue in Season 6 things were going quite swimmingly, however seriously unbalanced systems drove many of my fleet members away from the game or into bigger fleets. Even this wouldn't be so bad if I could recruit other players but no one wants to be in a T2 or T3 fleet and have to do work they all want to join T4's and up these days. There is no incentive to do otherwise.
Clearly you haven't played that many MMO's I use DDO as an example a lot because I play it and small guilds there get bonuses for being small. I'm sure there are countless other MMO's that have good system for encouraging small guilds which are more often than not way more fun to be a part of than mega large ones.
You seem to believe I am the only one voicing these concerns, and therefore seek to disparage or marginalize the people other than myself who also share similar concerns and conclusions.
This last comment is hilarious, the point is in Season 6 I player for 6+ hours every weekend and even a few hours of an evening during the week, because it was fun, this is not the case now, however what the Season 7 debacle highlighted for me was an underlying pattern now confirmed by the development team itself of rushed and unfit systems and code and a lack of repeatable enjoyable content.
You know I've played DDO for 3 years and I only have 4 characters at Level 17 I haven't even reached my first Epic level yet, but the game is fresh and the content you have to repeat is fun and there is so much of it you have a real choice about what you want to repeat. Making out that MMO's aren't for me or people like me who don't have the time to put hours in everyday is exaggeration at best and hypocritical from someone who is attempting to castigate me for excluding the way others play above my own habits. The truth is there are no doubt plenty of MMO's out there that attract and retain the patronage of people who have a similar lifestyle to myself it's just a shame for me that one of the Franchises that I truly love has an MMO that simply doesn't live up to the features and content other MMO's have.
Regardless of all this I think we can both agree that the rushed systems, patches and updates that cause imbalance and bugs in the game is something that has become a pattern of behaviour for Cryptic and does not benefit the game or it's players, regardless of what you think of my personal playing habits those things effect all players especially the bugs and much of it could be solved by better internal practices and interaction with Tribble testers.
It's great if you can play when you want whenever you want, it's also great if you have supreme knowledge of the game and know how to get everything you need in an hour of so of play, but don't think everyone is or should be like you.:)
I found it disappointing that you didn't wish to attempt to engage me in any meaningful discussion.
Phyrexians alternative point of view at least offered content that was worth reading and considering.
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Heh , that's funny because I've heard a different interpretation to this sale ... , as someone has suggested that the Andorian whale ships (look @ their front) ain't selling so well .
+1 again to this thread
Too much grind for so ridiculous reward content.
Cost of everything is way beyhond the line.
This lead to a non-enjoyable grindfest game type.
Cryptic : your game in its actual state is NOT FUN for long time player.
That is why so many people quit after few months.
Very few stay more than few months.
So many much more enjoyable games out there.
Two weeks in and they are still debugging the hell out of them.. I've seen two in-game so far TWO.
One of my friends has the set and has severe buyer's remorse.
This ship was highly anticipated, for a very very long time and Cryptic released in an utterly broken state at the height of a player revolt.
I for one have been spending far far less time in game, I haven't since last week and I don't anticipate participating more... until Cryptic has a major attitude adjustment. Certain things need to be fixed. Dan's attitude twords the players needs a total 180. And quality needs to improve 10000 percent.
At this point however I am going to say based on past performance "ain't gonna happen."
You've seen Two you've seen more than me as I've seen 0. Asking Cryptic and Stahl to change there attitude will be like asking a leopard to change it's spots it ain't gonna happen
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
never buy a car without a test drive
i guess putting new ships to test on a test server before live launch doesnt compute to them >_>
unless its cheap enough i wont get one without being able to test it
i wish they would make all of the ships free on tribble server so we could try them out before buying on holodeck. til then ill stick to ships off the EC exchange
yea i know they want the "buzz" of the launch of new ships, but they keep getting bad buzz. they burn players often enough and soon no one will buy new ships for fear of getting another lemon
fool me once shame on u, fool me twice shame on me
-General Chang
I'm not sure where either of you have been playing but I've seen tons of them. Seems like every STF I've been in has 1-2 of them, most Starbase 24's have at least 5, and I got stuck in a gorn minefield with 4 of them.
I have read this thread every day since it was posted, I understand your reasons behind the changes but I feel, as many others do, that there is major disconnect. I know that I don't post a lot, mostly due to the fact that the point I was going to make was stated.
Here is my take, as I see it.
On February 13, Task Force Spectre first Fleet to hit tier 5 Starbase
On February 14, Patch makes changes to reward system
Increasing Dilithium and Energy Credits rewards
Decreasing Fleet Marks rewards
This creates a backlash, many players state that Fleet Marks rewards are too low, current reward levels greatly favoring large fleets.
On February 14, This thread was started. Once again, Dastahl made the claim that all the metrics so that fleets need more Dilithium, but still not willing to increase the refinement rate. I still don't see how more Dilithium ore will help if I can earn more than 8,000 doing my daily grinds.
On February 19, Dastahl returns with changes inbound. Timeline is soon, "Thursday" or May...... wait and see.
On February 21, Patch increases and adds Fleets Marks to may missions. This made many of us ask why not put them in with the last patch or wait to change the foundry mission till this patch.
I am a day one vet, with a lifetime. I also run small fleet, about 7 active members. We just leveled to a tier 2 Starbase. Doing this is too much like a job, not to mention the work needed on our embassy or our Klingon Fleet. We're not looking for a handout, and we shouldn't have to join a large faceless fleet. These guys are my friends, we like the fact that our fleet is, ours. There are many larger fleets but this one is ours.
Like a stated in the beginning, this how I saw these events.
As soon as a fleet hit tier 5, they had to slow fleet progression. Of course large fleets need more Dilithium. Players will only give some of their 8,000 per day because there many things that need Dilithium other their fleet. But, there is only one place to spend fleet marks. Fleet change is needed.
As many people have stated, there are some very good ideas on how to help all fleets. As I see it there are three "sizes" of fleets: under 20 active players, 50ish active players and over 100 active players.
I only wish Cryptic would care enough to start a round table with fleets of different sizes to address changes that are needed. Randomly pick a few fleets from each tier size to improve the fleet system in the game.
Yeah, some people have to get a grip on reality. The Andorian ship is far more popular than- lets say for ex. the Vesta was when it was released.
I've seen tons of them as well, atm looks like every 4th or 5th ship I see is Andorian escort.
That, at the very least would be a start.
Fleet issues aren't the only elephant in the room though - Cryptic's fast-becoming-cyclic policies of removing in-game currencies and then having to hastily and clumsily patch them back in is eroding what little trust and goodwill a large number of this community have left.
This game won't survive as a costly full-on Asian grinder MMO - and that's exactly where it's headed - all you have to do is look at what Season 7 attempted to remove and what was added as 'content' to see what the roadmap for STO is.
Are you kidding me?
Since the change, I personally went from getting about 300 Fms a day with various missions, and maybe 1 foundry mission.. to getting about 800 a day with the HUGE increase in rewards on all FM maps. This was a huge +++ to Cryptic and Dan.. IMO.
This change has greatly increased the number of players in the Deferi zone , the Nukara zone, and all Fleet events. Heck, the zones give you 72 FMs per hard completed a day.. you can finish all 3 in the time it took you to get through one long lousy Foundry mission. 60 < 216 .. which would you rather????
Flame away but I am right, this was a good decision. We are playing an MMORPG, not a RPG.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Firstly, this thread is no longer about Fleet Marks alone, the imbalance in the Fleet Marks system that essentially made it a broken system was just a symptom for a far wider rot which comes down to Cryptic consistently rushing systems and content that is bugged, broken or unbalanced.
The change only happened because the players attempted to fix the broken FM system themselves by using a loophole in the Foundry rewards, one that may I add was put in there by Cryptic, why on earth it was a 30 minute repeatable missions I don't know.
Either way the change was needed, but I don't think they should be receiving any plaudits for offering an unbalanced currency system and then eventually when sufficiently moved out of their lackadaisical pattern of behaviour come up with the bright idea of immediatly shutting down the player driven fix and waiting a whole week to do the simple task of spreading FM's to other parts of the game.
It was horribly handled and whilst on the FM front we eventually got a pretty good solution the way it was done and the fact that it was only done because the players essentially forced Cryptics hand does not fill me with confidence especially as this was not the first time their amateurish behaviour has led to players having to pressure them into changes, I.e. Loot drops and Dilithium in STF's.
::An important note for those who are interested in a more long term sustained debate and action, please contact me via PM I have already got a number of players on-board, I will keep the consultation open to interested parties for one more week, after that point discussions with how to move forwards will take place, people are of course free to join in at any point but to have your say early on is crucial we want this to be as community driven as possible::
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