Not sure where your getting the idea its much of a tank, the best boff layout for tanking is still the exact same setup you would do on a jem hadar attackship, and pretty much the same as the fleet patrol escort as well. On the other hand its shields, hull, speed, and turn rate are all lower than the jem hadar attack ship, and i think lower than the fleet patrol escort. If you want to say its a better tank than a fleet defiant ok, i will go with you there, but thats about it.
As to damage, if anything its still under powered. The versions that have any survivability lack a 5th tac console slot like the jem hadar attack ship has, and the one that does have the 5th tac console has what has to be the worst boff layout i have ever seen, even worse than than the fleet defiant and that takes some effort.
For $50 I expect a powerful ship, this one so far has been nothing but a let down and I will probably go back to my jem hadar attack ship if its not improved. Considering what a revolutionary ship the Vesta set was for science officers this ship set is a joke so far.
I concur. The bugship is still #1 so I'm a bit lost at the OP feelings.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
It's supposed to be a glass cannon yet I note a couple of things:
1) it has the same hull and shield value as the armitage
2) the eng version has a superior tac layout to the armitage and you can have 2x lt eng which is tankier than 1 ltc eng as you can run 2x empts1 + eng team/aux2struc and have a TSS in the ensign universal slot. The tac slots alone make up for this as you can run 2x APO with no penalty
And don't get me started on the 2x aux2bat build you can do with this ship.
So if it's a glass cannon, why does it just as tanky as the armitage? It's power creep plain and simple, they just want to make the ship OP so people buy it.
My fleetmates and I were fighting our Fed fleet versus our KDF fleet in Ker'rat last night, which involved a lot of other stragglers, some with the Androian escorts.
There was even a Turkish RP Hero there.
Yeah, they were dangerous when you were being targeted, but they popped pretty easily last night.
Klingons don't get much in terms of C-Store ships/etc because they don't sell well enough. It's an unfortunate cyclic issue.
However, giving the Federation more 'toys' wouldn't increase the population Red-side, so it still won't be worth the cost.
They need a population base to justify C-Store content for them specifically. And to get that population base, they need a content base to attract players.
more likly star trek has always been about Star Fleet, there isn't nearly as much known about the Klingons as there is the Federation. I play Federation because I want to be the guy that shoots the green alien dude, sleeps with the green alien girl, and all the while telling admirials to go stuff it
My fleetmates and I were fighting our Fed fleet versus our KDF fleet in Ker'rat last night, which involved a lot of other stragglers, some with the Androian escorts.
There was even a Turkish RP Hero there.
Yeah, they were dangerous when you were being targeted, but they popped pretty easily last night.
So THAT's why one of those instances was such a festival of death last night.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
When you say 'kumari', do you really mean 'kumari' or do you mean either of 'charal' and 'khyzon' classes? Because, honestly, I think calling kumari class 'tanky' is a bit of a stretch.
Ones bad enough. Run into a pack of them and the games not even worth the effort. I don't really understand how this contributes to the betterment of the game of PvP.
Your problem lies in assuming PvP was considered at all. Or rather, in your choosing to lament and question something you already know the answer to.
Clearly this is the way forward with ships that Cryptic has chosen, they have decided to not add more console slots but rather to play with the weapon loadouts.....its not balanced, how could it be? Next I'd expect a cruiser with 5 forward weapons and 3 rear ones.
In case its not clear I'm very VERY unhappy with this development since it neatly makes all other escorts more or less obsolete. If not by the Kumari line then by whatever escorts Cryptic chooses to release next since they will assuredly need to make whatever comes next AT LEAST as good as the Kumari line. Its part of their bigger, better, more sales approach to ship design. TBH, I was beginning to wonder what trick they'd pull to keep the grinds and cash flowing in given fleets are starting to get within sight of T5 shipyards (and indeed some have already gotten there!).
At this point I would not be surprised if they released an "upgrade" kit you could use on an escort (or any ship type now that I think about it) to shift one of its weapon slots forward. Naturally they would be C-store consumables that you'd need to buy per ship. Maybe at 1500 Zen a pop? After all, it needs to be expensive to keep it rare.....ugh.
It isn't the ship that's OP, it's how the player sets it up. Don't nerf a ship because a few handful of players made them powerhouses.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
Yeah, have to agree with everyone who states that this ship is NOT OP! :rolleyes:
It's really all about player skill and build at the end of the day and I am sorry to say the majority of folks who own this ship is not really that much of a threat... at most they wipe one side of my shields out (with minimum hull damage) because of the five fore weapons but the ship itself cannot sustain the attack! Inevitably I end up taking them out from behind or if I am feeling annoyed, I "play chicken" with them and charge with my "meager" 4DHC's, Two Turrets and cutting beam all lighting my way! :cool:
I'll keep my Mobius or even Breen Ship Thank You Very Much!
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." - Rocky Balboa (2006)
I'll keep my Mobius or even Breen Ship Thank You Very Much!
yep, it's very telling when someone says they prefer a free ship over a store ship; if cryptic was trying to make it OP to entice sales, they failed miserably, because even after the buff, it still isn't
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The Science and Engineering version of this ship is pretty sturdy for a supposed glass cannon. The guy in my fleet that has a decent set up for it has yet to die while taking sustained fire.
I thought I'd never see the day I would jump on the escort bashing wagon, but this ship is bordering on absurd. Once people master the best build for it I can see it being even more powerful.
That being said, the ship itself doesn't concern me its whats coming after that I wonder how long Cryptic can keep up the bigger better moar powerful sales approach before ships come with insta-kill consoles.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Whenever I comment on the virtues of a ship as to whether or not it is unbalanced, there are ONLY 2 things in my mind:
1.) What would an experienced, talented PvP player do in it. And more importantly a dedicated premade. I am not interested in the masses, or ganking some unsuspecting newbie in Ker'rat.
2.) When a ship is released, I immediately have a sense of its abilities, builds + matched with consoles, and current in-game mechanics. That comes from having played for 3 years. I am also not the only one capable of this feat. I then immediately juxtapose the ship against the other side of the equation in terms of what the other playable faction have to serve as an equal. And, on this over the last 1 1/2 years, the divide has become wider than the Grand Canyon.
I do not lament the ship, and yes, it's obviously the evolution to Tier 6 ships.
Perhaps folks need to ask themselves exactly what defines "Overpowered"?
Take ever escort in the game including the JHAS. Run the tests on a full frontal alpha compared to that of a 5 TAC console 5x DHC attack. Prove me wrong that the DPS is not OP. Then run every single ship in the game, and try defend against that attack. There's your OP.
People are arguing that this ship is not OP by the nature of its healing potential, but I would argue that this ship IS OP, by the nature of its DPS in conjunction with team support, the way that PvP is intended to be played, and is being played by the best.
Take ever escort in the game including the JHAS. Run the tests on a full frontal alpha compared to that of a 5 TAC console 5x DHC attack. Prove me wrong that the DPS is not OP. Then run every single ship in the game, and try defend against that attack. There's your OP.
Yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing you on this particular point. However, just because someone buys a magnum doesn't mean they will know how to shoot $hit with it! The point is, the numbers may be there but the know how for the majority of players is not.
That being said, I think it was a mistake to remove one rear weapon on this new ship. Defeats the purpose and inevitably has sacrificed rear protection. If they wanted to make the next evolution of ships than they should have made it five fore, three rear. Than they could upgrade some of the existing ships.
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." - Rocky Balboa (2006)
Yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing you on this particular point. However, just because someone buys a magnum doesn't mean they will know how to shoot $hit with it! The point is, the numbers may be there but the know how for the majority of players is not.
That being said, I think it was a mistake to remove one rear weapon on this new ship. Defeats the purpose and inevitably has sacrificed rear protection. If they wanted to make the next evolution of ships than they should have made it five fore, three rear. Than they could upgrade some of the existing ships.
I just don't go into Arena to win over these folks. I go into Arena to beat the best. When I come up against the best in these things, I would like to know why my faction does not have anything comparable.
But actually, its also about just wanting a change of scenery for me. I have been forced to fly lockbox ships outside of my own faction ships because there is so little. And even the lockbox ships are now being threatened by zstore release ships that are better than the fleet ships.
And one last thing,
To all those Feds flying this ship, and arguing it's very weak? If it is - Well, welcome to my world!
Every single KDF ship is build as a fragile glass cannon - except we didn't get the cannon did we?
This is the third installment. Yes! Third of a 5 TAC console Fed ship, in addition to the 3rd Pack.
bugspatteredjack - sorry not directed at you or anyone in particular, just pent-up frustrated and all.
That's too bad, because if they listen to this guy (not likely anyway) they're going have a lot of offended customers, much more so than usual.
Ones bad enough. Run into a pack of them and the games not even worth the effort. I don't really understand how this contributes to the betterment of the game of PvP.
Gosh, talk about not seeing the forrest for the trees. Most of the people who play this game are PvE players who aren't interested in the broken, ego-driven, insanity-inducing component laughingly called "PvP" in this game. I've got a flash for you drk, the AI doesn't whine like a lost soul when it gets splashed, OR demand that the ganking ship be nerfed.
That's too bad, because if they listen to this guy (not likely anyway) they're going have a lot of offended customers, much more so than usual.
Gosh, talk about not seeing the forrest for the trees. Most of the people who play this game are PvE players who aren't interested in the broken, ego-driven, insanity-inducing component laughingly called "PvP" in this game. I've got a flash for you drk, the AI doesn't whine like a lost soul when it gets splashed, OR demand that the ganking ship be nerfed.
And here's a newsflash for you. By Cryptic own admission and actions PvP plays a very, very important role in their engine. What is the number one source for datamining of their development and investment, and I am speak in my own capacity as a Developer for an unrelated company? Who is of more benefit to them - the dude in STF screaming "My ship ship is a piece of TRIBBLE%, I am not supposed to die!!!" or the pvp players turning maths on its head?
Oh and by the way, in regards to Space PvP - have you seen the competition? LOL
Slate programmers all you want, but the developers at Cryptic are some of the most talented, most sort after in the world.
Same whine, same griping, same garbages as every other "omg nerf this escort/lockboxship/nerf tacs" thread.
Bad Kumari pilots go boom, same as bad JHAS, FTER, and every other pilot. Good kumari pilots will hand you your butt if they get the drop on you. Vice versa if you know your stuff and get the drop on them. Same as any other ship.
The only players that are a threat in the kumari are a threat in any other ship they fly, with a few more percent damage and a few percent less survivability. With the huge influx of Kumaris with bad pilots, PUG PvP just got a lot easier IMO.
My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
Same whine, same griping, same garbages as every other "omg nerf this escort/lockboxship/nerf tacs" thread.
Bad Kumari pilots go boom, same as bad JHAS, FTER, and every other pilot. Good kumari pilots will hand you your butt if they get the drop on you. Vice versa if you know your stuff and get the drop on them. Same as any other ship.
The only players that are a threat in the kumari are a threat in any other ship they fly, with a few more percent damage and a few percent less survivability. With the huge influx of Kumaris with bad pilots, PUG PvP just got a lot easier IMO.
tl;Dr
Want some cheese with that?
I don't think I once stated anywhere ever that the Andorian escorts need to be nerfed, so not sure if the "same whine, same gripe" is directed at me....
All I am asking for is that the KDF get some attention.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I don't think I once stated anywhere ever that the Andorian escorts need to be nerfed, so not sure if the "same whine, same gripe" is directed at me....
All I am asking for is that the KDF get some attention.
Most often when something is decried as OP that indicates a call to nerf it - I was not replying to you so much as the thread in general.
If you are offended, I sincerely apologize, and agree that the KDF need some new shinies ASAP, and they'd better be worth the wait.
I still say the kumari is NOT OP however, as always in STO, a good ship does not a good player make, and the constant Andorian spam is really, really fun to pop.
My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
Most often when something is decried as OP that indicates a call to nerf it - I was not replying to you so much as the thread in general.
If you are offended, I sincerely apologize, and agree that the KDF need some new shinies ASAP, and they'd better be worth the wait.
I still say the kumari is NOT OP however, as always in STO, a good ship does not a good player make, and the constant Andorian spam is really, really fun to pop.
And no, Gouda or havarti tho. :-)
Well there has hardlly been an outcry to nerf it - on the contrary there has been plenty of Feds bemoaning it to be buffed - a second time in the space of a week............. :eek:
Comments
I concur. The bugship is still #1 so I'm a bit lost at the OP feelings.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
1) it has the same hull and shield value as the armitage
2) the eng version has a superior tac layout to the armitage and you can have 2x lt eng which is tankier than 1 ltc eng as you can run 2x empts1 + eng team/aux2struc and have a TSS in the ensign universal slot. The tac slots alone make up for this as you can run 2x APO with no penalty
And don't get me started on the 2x aux2bat build you can do with this ship.
So if it's a glass cannon, why does it just as tanky as the armitage? It's power creep plain and simple, they just want to make the ship OP so people buy it.
Awesome
***Disenchanted***
Real Join Date: Monday, 17 May 2010
There was even a Turkish RP Hero there.
Yeah, they were dangerous when you were being targeted, but they popped pretty easily last night.
more likly star trek has always been about Star Fleet, there isn't nearly as much known about the Klingons as there is the Federation. I play Federation because I want to be the guy that shoots the green alien dude, sleeps with the green alien girl, and all the while telling admirials to go stuff it
This is the first time I've flown a ship that's considered OP. I'm going to enjoy this.
So THAT's why one of those instances was such a festival of death last night.
...Oh. Wait.
I see a JHAS in your banner, do you by chance fly a bug? If so, I find your complaints rather silly.
Elite Defense Stovokor
Your problem lies in assuming PvP was considered at all. Or rather, in your choosing to lament and question something you already know the answer to.
Clearly this is the way forward with ships that Cryptic has chosen, they have decided to not add more console slots but rather to play with the weapon loadouts.....its not balanced, how could it be? Next I'd expect a cruiser with 5 forward weapons and 3 rear ones.
In case its not clear I'm very VERY unhappy with this development since it neatly makes all other escorts more or less obsolete. If not by the Kumari line then by whatever escorts Cryptic chooses to release next since they will assuredly need to make whatever comes next AT LEAST as good as the Kumari line. Its part of their bigger, better, more sales approach to ship design. TBH, I was beginning to wonder what trick they'd pull to keep the grinds and cash flowing in given fleets are starting to get within sight of T5 shipyards (and indeed some have already gotten there!).
At this point I would not be surprised if they released an "upgrade" kit you could use on an escort (or any ship type now that I think about it) to shift one of its weapon slots forward. Naturally they would be C-store consumables that you'd need to buy per ship. Maybe at 1500 Zen a pop? After all, it needs to be expensive to keep it rare.....ugh.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
It's really all about player skill and build at the end of the day and I am sorry to say the majority of folks who own this ship is not really that much of a threat... at most they wipe one side of my shields out (with minimum hull damage) because of the five fore weapons but the ship itself cannot sustain the attack! Inevitably I end up taking them out from behind or if I am feeling annoyed, I "play chicken" with them and charge with my "meager" 4DHC's, Two Turrets and cutting beam all lighting my way! :cool:
I'll keep my Mobius or even Breen Ship Thank You Very Much!
yep, it's very telling when someone says they prefer a free ship over a store ship; if cryptic was trying to make it OP to entice sales, they failed miserably, because even after the buff, it still isn't
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I thought I'd never see the day I would jump on the escort bashing wagon, but this ship is bordering on absurd. Once people master the best build for it I can see it being even more powerful.
That being said, the ship itself doesn't concern me its whats coming after that I wonder how long Cryptic can keep up the bigger better moar powerful sales approach before ships come with insta-kill consoles.
that would be the Cascading Biogenic Pulse console that would come with a playable scimitar :P
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
1.) What would an experienced, talented PvP player do in it. And more importantly a dedicated premade. I am not interested in the masses, or ganking some unsuspecting newbie in Ker'rat.
2.) When a ship is released, I immediately have a sense of its abilities, builds + matched with consoles, and current in-game mechanics. That comes from having played for 3 years. I am also not the only one capable of this feat. I then immediately juxtapose the ship against the other side of the equation in terms of what the other playable faction have to serve as an equal. And, on this over the last 1 1/2 years, the divide has become wider than the Grand Canyon.
I do not lament the ship, and yes, it's obviously the evolution to Tier 6 ships.
Perhaps folks need to ask themselves exactly what defines "Overpowered"?
Take ever escort in the game including the JHAS. Run the tests on a full frontal alpha compared to that of a 5 TAC console 5x DHC attack. Prove me wrong that the DPS is not OP. Then run every single ship in the game, and try defend against that attack. There's your OP.
People are arguing that this ship is not OP by the nature of its healing potential, but I would argue that this ship IS OP, by the nature of its DPS in conjunction with team support, the way that PvP is intended to be played, and is being played by the best.
Yeah, I don't think anyone is disputing you on this particular point. However, just because someone buys a magnum doesn't mean they will know how to shoot $hit with it! The point is, the numbers may be there but the know how for the majority of players is not.
That being said, I think it was a mistake to remove one rear weapon on this new ship. Defeats the purpose and inevitably has sacrificed rear protection. If they wanted to make the next evolution of ships than they should have made it five fore, three rear. Than they could upgrade some of the existing ships.
I just don't go into Arena to win over these folks. I go into Arena to beat the best. When I come up against the best in these things, I would like to know why my faction does not have anything comparable.
But actually, its also about just wanting a change of scenery for me. I have been forced to fly lockbox ships outside of my own faction ships because there is so little. And even the lockbox ships are now being threatened by zstore release ships that are better than the fleet ships.
And one last thing,
To all those Feds flying this ship, and arguing it's very weak? If it is - Well, welcome to my world!
Every single KDF ship is build as a fragile glass cannon - except we didn't get the cannon did we?
This is the third installment. Yes! Third of a 5 TAC console Fed ship, in addition to the 3rd Pack.
bugspatteredjack - sorry not directed at you or anyone in particular, just pent-up frustrated and all.
That's too bad, because if they listen to this guy (not likely anyway) they're going have a lot of offended customers, much more so than usual.
Gosh, talk about not seeing the forrest for the trees. Most of the people who play this game are PvE players who aren't interested in the broken, ego-driven, insanity-inducing component laughingly called "PvP" in this game. I've got a flash for you drk, the AI doesn't whine like a lost soul when it gets splashed, OR demand that the ganking ship be nerfed.
And here's a newsflash for you. By Cryptic own admission and actions PvP plays a very, very important role in their engine. What is the number one source for datamining of their development and investment, and I am speak in my own capacity as a Developer for an unrelated company? Who is of more benefit to them - the dude in STF screaming "My ship ship is a piece of TRIBBLE%, I am not supposed to die!!!" or the pvp players turning maths on its head?
Oh and by the way, in regards to Space PvP - have you seen the competition? LOL
Slate programmers all you want, but the developers at Cryptic are some of the most talented, most sort after in the world.
Bad Kumari pilots go boom, same as bad JHAS, FTER, and every other pilot. Good kumari pilots will hand you your butt if they get the drop on you. Vice versa if you know your stuff and get the drop on them. Same as any other ship.
The only players that are a threat in the kumari are a threat in any other ship they fly, with a few more percent damage and a few percent less survivability. With the huge influx of Kumaris with bad pilots, PUG PvP just got a lot easier IMO.
tl;Dr
Want some cheese with that?
I don't think I once stated anywhere ever that the Andorian escorts need to be nerfed, so not sure if the "same whine, same gripe" is directed at me....
All I am asking for is that the KDF get some attention.
mmmmm, cheese...anyone got some pepper jack?
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Most often when something is decried as OP that indicates a call to nerf it - I was not replying to you so much as the thread in general.
If you are offended, I sincerely apologize, and agree that the KDF need some new shinies ASAP, and they'd better be worth the wait.
I still say the kumari is NOT OP however, as always in STO, a good ship does not a good player make, and the constant Andorian spam is really, really fun to pop.
And no, Gouda or havarti tho. :-)
Well there has hardlly been an outcry to nerf it - on the contrary there has been plenty of Feds bemoaning it to be buffed - a second time in the space of a week............. :eek: