I think all of you guys need to seriously cool off and focus your anger elsewhere.
As Brandon has been mentioning, all the feedback you guys are spitting out is being passed along to Dan. I doubt that they're going to return the fleet marks to the foundry, since it was never meant to be a permanent addition. Blaming the Foundry Authors (which now includes me, as I have one mission in the foundry that isn't even that long) isn't going to help. In a time that we have no story content, we need to take what we can get.
And for all of you guys that are angry about the game turning into a grindfest: get over it. I for one like the content that has been put out by cryptic over the last year. I don't simply stay on fleet action for long. I tend to jump around to different places, so I don't get bored. I have played two other MMOs in my lifetime and both were ones that required grind. One was a Korean MMO that required you literally to grind exp over and over by fighting endless mobs of enemies, while the other was D&D online, which was a straight grind for leveling as well.
The one thing that keeps me in the game is the fact that what I'm grinding up to is actually fun in the end. I'm taking my time with things. As a silver player, I will continue to play how I want. If you guys are unhappy with this game, go find an MMO that provides the same kinds of stuff that STO does. I'll just be keeping myself busy, unlocking stuff that I can use in the game.
Disclaimer: I have tried to keep my humour throughout this too, too, long post and hope that that comes across, but this is an issue that is making it difficult to retain that humour, so sorry if I offend anyone but, c'est la vie...
Wow, I have finally read this entire thread, or at least as far as #1276 When I started this, It'll probably be longer before I finish this little missive...
So what can I add to this "free exchange of thoughts and ideas"?
Well to be honest not much beyond my own perspective as a player and, occasionally, paying customer.
I've been playing since the middle of Oct 2012, don't ask me the stardate I'm a trekker not a trekkie lol.
Going from Ensign to Captain was cool, really felt like a STAR TREK experience. Then as I joined a fleet and started taking a closer look at the mechanics of achievements and rewards in this game, I came to a realisation that there would come a choice between grinding, content and RL ca$h. Ok, no problem, I've played a number of MMOs b4, there's usually a way of balancing these elements and still getting the F factor from the game.
F=FUN for those that forget...
Now I found this balance in S6, I could do the story lines, do my daily "free" one click and then go on to enjoy a longer more story based foundry mission, thank you kirkfat, hippiejohn and others, some nice work. I read the forums occasionally, really more interested in how I could build my Character and ships in order to ENJOY the STAR TREK experience and to make the "manageable" GRIND more FUN than anything else.
Then S7 hit, suddenly cost in dil had gone up, or on things that made the daily refine limit seem too small, the time needed to GRIND went up, the devs told us that they where adding ways of earning more dil to the game and yet... IOR one click was gone!!!... Gasp, shudder, WTF(lip). OK calm down, it's only a slight change, there are still enough ways of earning dil, most of which have been gone into here ad-nausea.
The protests about those changes brought about the state of affairs where they introduced a new avenue of opportunity for those that wanted to farm dil/FM/ec. It meant that we could earn enough dil/FM/ec in time to leave us able to play longer missions, heck even contribute some to our fleets. All was cool in the pool, less GRIND more fun, and I'll say this now I really miss having more fun than GRIND...
BUT...?
Really...?
20min missions with a half hour cool-down??? This was like being 5 years old and finding yourself locked in a chocolate factory, yum, yum, yum... No one told me I wasn't supposed to gorge myself...
I understand that this was a "temporary" measure and would be REPLACED with a different system of acquiring dil/FM/ec, as you(Devs/PWE/whoever) had listened to the concerns of your player/customer base and were working on a more equable play/reward system. OK I'm cool with this, it's temp, enjoy it but expect changes... NP I could live with this compromise and was interested in seeing what would develop.
But this, this, this complete lack of consideration of your players I just don't get. What we had was not breaking the game or the foundry or the Zen market, in fact it was stimulating all of these. It wasn't following the intentions of the foundry, we knew this, you knew this, we knew that you knew this and, funnily enough you knew that we knew this and we all knew that it would change (lol).
So rather than replacing the current flaw/exploit/development you just take it away, no notice, pif paff poof gone... And you "replace" it with what? Well Who knows the foundry is of line... So with the lack of anything you leave us in limbo.
So can't we just be civilized enough to agree that this is a VERY BIG issue. Both for the players side, the foundry authors, who I hope have equal rights with the rest of their fellow STOers, and for Cryptic/PWE/CBS(who I hope watch how their IP is being used/administrated).
Assuming we can agree that a majority of players play this game for the Trek experience or the pew, pew or the rp, or the chance to express their self or whatever, we're all here to play... Now work and play are generally considered to be two separate areas of our daily lives. So why would anyone want to play a game which is becoming more and more like a job? Because we do... I don't know why, but I see more and more games becoming grindfests and people keep playing... I do it and I'm sure many others do, but most games that are grindfests don't change the rules, move the goalposts and bribe the referee at the same time. If they have upcoming changes to the economic mechanics of the game they announce it in advance, they respond to forums and e-mails. They don't just remove one feature that changes the games reward system without some kind of communications.
When I saw the OP I thought, wow, nice DS is going to show us he's willing to bring us the players in and share some constructive dialogue, but damn I'm disappointed.
Been home from work 4 hrs now, played 1hr of that.
I guess I'm frustrated at the mushroom feeling, TALK TO US DEVS...
LET US VENT OUR FEELINGS, but most of all try to put yourselves in the player/investors position.
Those that blame foundry authors for this are very much off the mark, they fill out this game adding content that is lacking in the commercial product. It's a shame that PWE/Cryptic/whoever have done this, but it is not to please a few elitist authors.
Ok enough typing, sorry, but my whole weekend was put aside for STO for the first time in months and I'm a little peeved...;)
I'm receiving many requests for someone to post to this thread -- as I've said elsewhere, there have been no further posts from dStahl or anyone else because there are no further updates to provide at this time. Daniel created the thread to let you know some of the "why" behind the change, and even made a few comments after that elaborating more, along with letting you know some of our plans.
If there are more updates that I can pass along, I will most certainly do so -- you have my commitment to that. You also have my commitment that I will continue reading every single post made in this thread (and I have been since it was created). I am passing along your feedback from this thread directly to the decision makers, but I have no involvement in the decision making.
Also, a few of you have made comments about moderation taken in this thread. Posts that break our forum rules will be moderated, as well as the users who posted them. I suggest everyone takes a look at our forum rules here and keep them in mind. This is a friendly warning as I would hate to see anyone banned for breaking them. It's okay to be upset, it's okay to post how much you hate the change, it's okay to feel the way you do, but it's not okay to break our forum rules. As you can tell from the many constructive, yet highly negative posts in this thread, the only posts that have been and will be moderated are those that don't follow our rules. Lastly, discussing moderation taken on the forums is against the forum rules as well. If you have a question about any moderation actions taken by the mods or myself, please reach out to me via the instructions in my forum signature.
I think all of you guys need to seriously cool off and focus your anger elsewhere.
As Brandon has been mentioning, all the feedback you guys are spitting out is being passed along to Dan. I doubt that they're going to return the fleet marks to the foundry, since it was never meant to be a permanent addition. Blaming the Foundry Authors (which now includes me, as I have one mission in the foundry that isn't even that long) isn't going to help. In a time that we have no story content, we need to take what we can get.
And for all of you guys that are angry about the game turning into a grindfest: get over it. I for one like the content that has been put out by cryptic over the last year. I don't simply stay on fleet action for long. I tend to jump around to different places, so I don't get bored. I have played two other MMOs in my lifetime and both were ones that required grind. One was a Korean MMO that required you literally to grind exp over and over by fighting endless mobs of enemies, while the other was D&D online, which was a straight grind for leveling as well.
The one thing that keeps me in the game is the fact that what I'm grinding up to is actually fun in the end. I'm taking my time with things. As a silver player, I will continue to play how I want. If you guys are unhappy with this game, go find an MMO that provides the same kinds of stuff that STO does. I'll just be keeping myself busy, unlocking stuff that I can use in the game.
See, that's your problem.
Huzzahh, you like the way the game is and what they are doing, so does that mean those who have a different opinion should just shut up and leave?
Why not just go and play the game and leave those unhappy with it, to vent their frustration and anger on these forums?
Now all you have done is create more posts about your post, causing more frustration and more anger to be direct at you and your post.
/Sigh...
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Well, this isn't the 1960's. TOS worked well for its time (well relatively, it only lasted 3 season and that was only because of a letter writting campaign).
The only thought that TMP provoked was "god is this movie over yet."
TWoK was an action movie about a mad man bent on revenge (not really different from JJ Trek which can said is a fault for ST09).
STIII: Ok, how do we get out of having killed Spock.
STIV: Ha, don't even get me started.
STV: A Soap Opera (in Roddenberry's own words).
STVI: Ok, TNG kind of messed with continuity so now we have to throw together a rather predictable and yet at the same time implausible plot to get the Klingons and Federation to make peace.
People are faulting JJ Trek for pretty much sticking to the formula.
I think what stands out more than anything else is that it's a prequal. A prequal with other actors playing the parts of the Star Trek characters we all know and love. After the tragedy that befell Star Wars thanks to the continued meddling of one George Lucas, everyone is predisposed to thinking the movie will suck. Then they watch the movie thinking that and find a reason to confirm it. I also haven't seen the movie for all the above reasons.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
i thought enterprise season 3 and 4 where not bad (except the final the final). even the first 2 where watchable not great mediocre. much like season 2 voyager
i also thought 09 film was a good action movie still not a fan of the interior or exterior of the ships
Also, a few of you have made comments about moderation taken in this thread. Posts that break our forum rules will be moderated, as well as the users who posted them. I suggest everyone takes a look at our forum rules here and keep them in mind. This is a friendly warning as I would hate to see anyone banned for breaking them. It's okay to be upset, it's okay to post how much you hate the change, it's okay to feel the way you do, but it's not okay to break our forum rules. As you can tell from the many constructive, yet highly negative posts in this thread, the only posts that have been and will be moderated are those that don't follow our rules. Lastly, discussing moderation taken on the forums is against the forum rules as well.
Of course, the problem with those rules is that the "Flaming and/or Trolling" section is so vague that it can be taken to mean basically anything.
You may not post content which contains insults to other users or Perfect World Entertainment Staff, are specifically made to create undue discontent on the forums, disturbances in forum threads, pick fights or otherwise promote unfriendly conversation.
An argument could be made that practically every post in this thread fits that, since they're all complaining about the changes being made, which would tend to increase discontent. Throw in the bit about not posting unrelated comments under the "Spamming" section, and that takes care of the rest.
Anyway, thanks for checking in, but the fact is people aren't going to simmer down until we get a response with some substance to it, and your "I swear I'm telling them about what's being said here, even though nothing is happening and I don't have any authority" isn't much closer to substantive than us ranting in the first place.
He was just an undercover agent to learn about f2p micro-transactions and what a game is like where you just click click click...check back later and click some more. Aside from grinding STO has turned into a click fest. Don't remember when i actually had to fly my ship very far. mission menus, queues, transwarps (even paid with ec), and personal rep stores can get you where and what you need.
There's more truth to that than you may realize.
I've been playing MUCH less now that I have to grind rep for each individual toon. Hundreds of STFs, bad enough on my main and my alt. Having to grind the exact same stuff a third, forth, fifth time? No dice.
Main is getting Borg and Romulan and Fleet gear.
Alt is getting Borg and fleet gear.
Second Alt, Fleet gear only.
Remaining toons... whatever. I'll leave them open for whatever they cook up next.
Now:
When a game forces players to conform to internal company metrics first and foremost that's a very very bad sign. It is a tremendously bad move for the Lead Producer to basically come on and tell us we are not conforming to his vision and therefore he is adjusting gameplay to bring us inline.
Participation in STO is not mandatory! I can walk away and find a new game, one that suits me. I don't have to sit here and subject myself to the same pitiful selection of raids and endgame maps with broken mechanics. This is why people created the clickies and created short-run foundry maps. People are BOARD TO TEARS with the current selection of grind content! We used the UGC system to fill a void.
This, coupled with the ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC excuse for a quality control system... Or is it poor quality? Did you decide to "punish" the KDF side for not meeting internal metrics? Is that why ET breaks cloak, wrecks Siege Mode and a host of other KDF-specific glitches? I notice no effort was spared to track down the 2-min warning glitch on the Fed side, yet my KDF stuff is still broken...
I've reinstalled Secret World and started downloading WoW. I have plenty of time to game... If I don't get an answer I like from Cryptic about the current situation I plan to cut my participation in STO by a significant amount.
Then again... I already OWN everything in the C-store and have six max-level toons with Lockbox Premium gear. Perhaps they WANT me to leave so someone who doesn't own all that can take my place and spend spend spend....
I think what stands out more than anything else is that it's a prequal. A prequal with other actors playing the parts of the Star Trek characters we all know and love. After the tragedy that befell Star Wars thanks to the continued meddling of one George Lucas, everyone is predisposed to thinking the movie will suck. Then they watch the movie thinking that and find a reason to confirm it. I also haven't seen the movie for all the above reasons.
I must bow to your reasoning (I'm being serious, although I did like aspects of Episodes II and III).
Predisposition does matter. I was skeptical about the project, and actually remaind so (having managed to sit through the destruction of Vulcan expecting some over used temporal reset button). Then came the explaination of the Alternate Reality and I was all like "oh it's like a less evil Mirror Universe and doesn't TRIBBLE with the main timeline, cool." Then I read up on some of the actual theories of quantum mechanics that influened the new timeline and thought the writters did a good job.
i also thought 09 film was a good action movie still not a fan of the interior or exterior of the ships
The exterior took me a bit of time to get used to. The interior, while being a bit too bright, makes sense in terms of the touchscreens and huds. I watch the various Treks to this day thinking "my iPhone looks more advanced and intuitive than that."
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Well, this isn't the 1960's. TOS worked well for its time (well relatively, it only lasted 3 season and that was only because of a letter writting campaign).
The only thought that TMP provoked was "god is this movie over yet."
TWoK was an action movie about a mad man bent on revenge (not really different from JJ Trek which can said is a fault for ST09).
STIII: Ok, how do we get out of having killed Spock.
STIV: Ha, don't even get me started.
STV: A Soap Opera (in Roddenberry's own words).
STVI: Ok, TNG kind of messed with continuity so now we have to throw together a rather predictable and yet at the same time implausible plot to get the Klingons and Federation to make peace.
People are faulting JJ Trek for pretty much sticking to the formula.
Simply put nope, there is a clear and obvious stylistic, aesthetic, cinematographic change JJ is much closer to the last TNG film than it is to any of the TOS era films. Even then though there is little no recognizable link to the ethos that defines Star Trek, not only that it doesn't even resemble the same reality or time line.
I like both Event Horizon and ST:2009 but I wouldn't say either is Star Trek. Like I said wait till you see Into Darkness... it will become a lot clearer as to how far JJ has departed from the spirit of Star Trek.
Huzzahh, you like the way the game is and what they are doing, so does that mean those who have a different opinion should just shut up and leave?
Strangely enough, if we did, there certainly wouldbe a change! (unless their businessmodel is predicated on a high churn rate and very low playerretention)
Can we maybe stop discussing the various series and movies? The post count is big enough as it is.
Let's get back to why we all are really here, it's not about the IOR, not the FM's. Those where just things that made our plight bearable
It's about the lack of FUN
^ QFT.
It isn't just the lack of fun mind you, it's the seeming lack of respect from the powers that be towards us the players when we say "this isn't fun, this is a grindfest". Or when we say "This is filled with bugs, please can you make the time to fix them?" or even "the game has little in the way of fun endgame content, please can you make the time to make it?".
In other words, we are simply being used as a captive audience of Trek fan/gamer hybrids.
Trek fan/gamer hybrid. That's got to be a golden goose for games companies right there.
Can we maybe stop discussing the various series and movies? The post count is big enough as it is.
Let's get back to why we all are really here, it's not about the IOR, not the FM's. Those where just things that made our plight bearable
It's about the lack of FUN
I'm not having any fun here. You all know how cranky I get when I'm not having fun. ~Chief Deputy U.S. Marshal Sam Gerard
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Here is the way I like to view the issues with small fleets and larger fleets:
A small fleet *should* have a smaller starbase (T2,3, etc.). They are, after all, smaller, and should, logically, have a smaller starbase. Why would a small fleet get to have a large starbase? That doesn't really make sense. In fact, in my mind at least, these fleet should be able to get a large starbase after "proving" their determination. Before I get a lot of flame for saying that, I'm not saying that smaller fleets don't have that determination and haven't proven it, I'm just trying to provide an explanation here. Look at it as if you were your character in game: Starfleet (or whoever we'd like to say manages fleets) would not give you resources willy-nilly to a small fleet.
Larger fleets, on the other hand, should have larger starbases (T5) because they *are* large fleets and should have larger starbases.
Again, like I said, I'm not trying to provide a solution, I'm trying to give players a way to accept what the devs have done. I don't mean to say that I'm angry about what they've done, in fact I think it makes sense. Let me rephrase that, I understand them limiting the amount of fleet marks that one could get.
All in all, I believe that this decision makes sense that smaller fleets should get smaller starbases (and larger as they become "legendary," if you will). Larger fleets should, naturally, have larger starbases because they are larger.
I am personally in a larger fleet because I wanted to be part of a consistently active fleet. Smaller fleets on the other hand can be harder to find where you have a bunch of active players. These smaller fleets will eventually get their large starbases, and in my mind, they will have become "legendary" in the smaller fleet system because they have achieved such a feat.
P.S. somebody might have already mentioned this on one of the other of the hundred or so pages, but ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
You do understand that by doing so the mods will have a valid reason to close this thread by quoting something like 'This thread has run it's course'
And this is why nothing will ever change.....it's all about herd mentality......you see this sort of thing playing out in governments ALL the time.....
Scandal hits.....the masses clamour for change......weeks pass.....people forget why they were angry and slowly but surely things go back to being as messed up as they were before said scandal.
You do understand that by doing so the mods will have a valid reason to close this thread by quoting something like 'This thread has run it's course'
And this is why nothing will ever change.....it's all about herd mentality......you see this sort of thing playing out in governments ALL the time.....
Scandal hits.....the masses clamour for change......weeks pass.....people forget why they were angry and slowly but surely things go back to being as messed up as they were before said scandal.
lol.....people are funny
*cough* Like you are doing too;)
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
Here is the way I like to view the issues with small fleets and larger fleets:
A small fleet *should* have a smaller starbase (T2,3, etc.). They are, after all, smaller, and should, logically, have a smaller starbase. Why would a small fleet get to have a large starbase? That doesn't really make sense. In fact, in my mind at least, these fleet should be able to get a large starbase after "proving" their determination. Before I get a lot of flame for saying that, I'm not saying that smaller fleets don't have that determination and haven't proven it, I'm just trying to provide an explanation here. Look at it as if you were your character in game: Starfleet (or whoever we'd like to say manages fleets) would not give you resources willy-nilly to a small fleet.
Larger fleets, on the other hand, should have larger starbases (T5) because they *are* large fleets and should have larger starbases.
Again, like I said, I'm not trying to provide a solution, I'm trying to give players a way to accept what the devs have done. I don't mean to say that I'm angry about what they've done, in fact I think it makes sense. Let me rephrase that, I understand them limiting the amount of fleet marks that one could get.
All in all, I believe that this decision makes sense that smaller fleets should get smaller starbases (and larger as they become "legendary," if you will). Larger fleets should, naturally, have larger starbases because they are larger.
I am personally in a larger fleet because I wanted to be part of a consistently active fleet. Smaller fleets on the other hand can be harder to find where you have a bunch of active players. These smaller fleets will eventually get their large starbases, and in my mind, they will have become "legendary" in the smaller fleet system because they have achieved such a feat.
P.S. somebody might have already mentioned this on one of the other of the hundred or so pages, but ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
And fundamentally lock out anyone who isn't in a mega fleet from high end gear simply because they don't want to be one of a faceless horde? Absolutely not.
Simply put nope, there is a clear and obvious stylistic, aesthetic, cinematographic change JJ is much closer to the last TNG film than it is to any of the TOS era films. Even then though there is little no recognizable link to the ethos that defines Star Trek.
IMHO, it shares the same ethos with the rest of Trek.
it will become a lot clearer as to how far JJ has departed from the spirit of Star Trek.
Looks like the new movie will sort of a Kirk vs. Gary Williams scenario. If that holds true, this would be faulting JJ for following a TOS episode. Can't fault someone that follows Trek for not following Trek.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Here is the way I like to view the issues with small fleets and larger fleets:
A small fleet *should* have a smaller starbase (T2,3, etc.). They are, after all, smaller, and should, logically, have a smaller starbase. Why would a small fleet get to have a large starbase? That doesn't really make sense. In fact, in my mind at least, these fleet should be able to get a large starbase after "proving" their determination. Before I get a lot of flame for saying that, I'm not saying that smaller fleets don't have that determination and haven't proven it, I'm just trying to provide an explanation here. Look at it as if you were your character in game: Starfleet (or whoever we'd like to say manages fleets) would not give you resources willy-nilly to a small fleet.
Larger fleets, on the other hand, should have larger starbases (T5) because they *are* large fleets and should have larger starbases.
If you are referring to the "look" of the base (how grand and large it appears when you fly in) then I can maybe see the sense of this. If you are referring to the gear and ships attainable, then no. A small fleet has Vice Admirals just like a large fleet does. If you send an Away Team of five into enemy territory, you don't give them a marshmallow gun because they are a small group while reserving phaser rifles for your army.
I am a Beta tester player you will respect my autoritah!!!
Your original sentiment was correct though.
And as such, I will now leave posting and let those who it really does effect, have the floor.
Been a great and interested thread.
Off to bed now and I fully expect the thread to be back on course for it's true meaning (and no it isn't about fun), it's about more than that.
never give up, never surrender...:)
Straight from the mouth of one of the leaders of the CDF - "I tell you what, Haven't spent any money either - I'm a lousy freeloader" - Jonsills 17/12/2014
That's all a lot of us want to know and now that you made it known your reading them people will be more inclined to share their displeasure for this change. You (Cryptic) have been changing the game and not listening to the player base about the changes and not giving us (player base) a chance to reply. Your also saying now that the FM in IOR was a temporary thing but have yet to post where you said that. You also mentioned that yes FM will still be in IOR when you changed it from a daily to a repeatable mission.
from 9/5/2012 you said:
The Fleet Mark bonus for the Foundry daily is now available for the daily itself -- it does not matter which hourly event is running Enjoy!
So that says nothing about it being temporary or would be removed in the future.
Above a fleet size of about 25 active player accounts playing 2-3 times a week, the expectation is that these fleets will fill up project requirements quickly but be gated by the time it takes for the upgrade projects to complete.
That was said by dstahl when season 6 came out. Lets put it to the test shall we?
Lets use a 50 man fleet:
A Tier 2 project takes 600 fleet marks. They can have 3 projects running at once so that is 1,800 FM needed per day. 1,800 divided by 50 is 36. So each day a person needs to make 36 fleet marks to keep a 50 man fleet going and only be gated by the time factor. BUT wait we now have Embassy too. And that's 630 FM per project for Tier 1 projects and 2 can run at once. So that adds 1,260 FM to the daily. So now the daily is 3,060 so that means each person a day is required to turn in 61.2 so we will say 61 FM. Now that we have what we need per day from each of our 50 members lets see what they have to do for those 2-3 days they are on a week.
So each day 61 FM are needed, that means that in a week you would need to turn in 427. Now your only playing 2 or 3 days a week that means 3 days a week you would need to get at least 142 fleet marks a day. With the way that works out is about 3 hours of grinding fleet marks from the Fleet Actions if they can get 50 per hour. So if you only play 2 days a week that's 213 FM needed, just over 4 hours of grinding fleet marks at 50 per hour.
That is the basic of a 50 man fleet with a tier 2 starbase with tier 2 projects going. Lets do a tier 3 starbase set of projects.
Well those projects are 900 each and you have 3 of them going. That means 2,700 just for the starbase. So that means 54 per day just for starbase. So lets add the embassy at the same rate of 1,260 so that's 3,960 per day needed meaning each of the 50 member squad has to get 79 per day. So if they each need 553 per week. If they play 2 days a week that's 276 per day they play, or 5 hours of grinding FM. If they play 3 days a week that's 184 per day they play, or 3 hours nearly 4 of grinding FM at 50 per hour.
Well lets go up another level. Those project cost 960 per project. Which doesn't add a lot more from the last tier. So that means that it shouldn't slow down a fleet compared to the jump of tier 2 to tier 3.
So to me it looks like dstahl outright lied saying a fleet of 25+ would only hit the time gate. I can not see that a fleet of 50 who play 2-3 times a week will want to grind 3 or 4 of the hours that they play just to advance the fleet when the way to get FM is so dull and un-popular. Bring back the fun
Here is my one and only suggestion for fixing Fleet Marks.
Take the Supergroup system from CoH and copy it wholecloth into STO.
In CoH players earned Prestige (Fleet Marks) by playing any content in the game as long as they were in a fleet. Other rewards were reduced slighty while playing in SG (Fleet) mode as a balance factor.
This system worked PERFECTLY for nearly 8 years.
It really says something about Cryptic and/or PWE that this simple and effective solution is unacceptable to them.
IMHO, it shares the same ethos with the rest of Trek.
I would hope so, sense it is an Alternate Timeline. That would be like complaining the Mirror Universe has little in common with the Prime Universe.
Looks like the new movie will sort of a Kirk vs. Gary Williams scenario. If that holds true, this would be faulting JJ for following a TOS episode. Can't fault someone that follows Trek for not following Trek.
It's not Kirk Vs Gary Mitchell. It would make 0 sense in the new timeline for that to be the case.
The point with the Mirror Universe was that it was the morally inferior of the two...
anyways this is going dangerously off topic, so I will leave it at this.
Though the conversation is more fun than playing the game atm
All in all, I believe that this decision makes sense that smaller fleets should get smaller starbases (and larger as they become "legendary," if you will). Larger fleets should, naturally, have larger starbases because they are larger.
I am personally in a larger fleet because I wanted to be part of a consistently active fleet. Smaller fleets on the other hand can be harder to find where you have a bunch of active players. These smaller fleets will eventually get their large starbases, and in my mind, they will have become "legendary" in the smaller fleet system because they have achieved such a feat.
Of course everything is fine when you are part of what Cryptic is condoning as an "elite" or "favored" player. What Cryptic is doing by separating large fleets and small fleets is creating a player class division. People who want to be in small fleets are really no concern of the developers, while large fleets get the development time and attention. It's really stupid business, as eventually the small fleets will plod on, and underutilizing the monetization function of the starbase, or just leave the game.
The sensible and most profit generating move is to provide a path for all players -- monetization for starbases really doesn't start until level 5 anyway with fleet modules and obscene amounts of dilithium.
I can understand why, as a member of a large fleet, you want to keep the status quo. I once was part of an elite mmo guild and boy did we fight anything to keep the "lesser people" from ever getting what we had.
How MMO companies reach for the stars: "And as far as Season 7 being "grindy" - welcome to the MMORPG genre."
Starbases are just GIANT resource and time sinks - glorified stores for expensive gear.
They offer almost no functionality and even the big fleet with 400+ members - the places are usually vacant.
Really what is all the fuss about? You want to waste more of your time and money/resources buying over priced ships and gear that are only needed by the 5% of people that pvp in STO?
Since season 7, this game has just lost a lot of its fun for me. Sure, the exploits are fair game to be removed, but squashing progression of star bases and embassies in the process is lazy and BS. Nerfing things because they are OP, after they are earned or purchased, shows a lack of forethought or testing and are BS. The long term bugs and new ones introduced that take months or years to fix are BS. The explanation given by DStahl in the beginning of this thread may be true, but sounds like BS.
For endgame play, progressing the SB and embassy are activities that our fleet can engage in (a small fleet). Fleet marks are a choke point. The FM's were the only reason that I played foundry missions and I actually had some fun doing it. But I was doing it for fleet marks. I can earn dilithium other ways more efficiently and have more fun doing it; or we can buy dilithium, if so inclined.
Figure out a way to get the FM's rolling again now, not in three months. Do it IN ADDITION to the IOR repeatable, not in place of. Give me some freakin' choices in how to earn the things needed to progress the SB and embassy. I detest being told how to play the game.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . Please do not discuss forum moderation; file a forums and website ticket if you have more questions. ~BranFlakes
Comments
As Brandon has been mentioning, all the feedback you guys are spitting out is being passed along to Dan. I doubt that they're going to return the fleet marks to the foundry, since it was never meant to be a permanent addition. Blaming the Foundry Authors (which now includes me, as I have one mission in the foundry that isn't even that long) isn't going to help. In a time that we have no story content, we need to take what we can get.
And for all of you guys that are angry about the game turning into a grindfest: get over it. I for one like the content that has been put out by cryptic over the last year. I don't simply stay on fleet action for long. I tend to jump around to different places, so I don't get bored. I have played two other MMOs in my lifetime and both were ones that required grind. One was a Korean MMO that required you literally to grind exp over and over by fighting endless mobs of enemies, while the other was D&D online, which was a straight grind for leveling as well.
The one thing that keeps me in the game is the fact that what I'm grinding up to is actually fun in the end. I'm taking my time with things. As a silver player, I will continue to play how I want. If you guys are unhappy with this game, go find an MMO that provides the same kinds of stuff that STO does. I'll just be keeping myself busy, unlocking stuff that I can use in the game.
Wow, I have finally read this entire thread, or at least as far as #1276 When I started this, It'll probably be longer before I finish this little missive...
So what can I add to this "free exchange of thoughts and ideas"?
Well to be honest not much beyond my own perspective as a player and, occasionally, paying customer.
I've been playing since the middle of Oct 2012, don't ask me the stardate I'm a trekker not a trekkie lol.
Going from Ensign to Captain was cool, really felt like a STAR TREK experience. Then as I joined a fleet and started taking a closer look at the mechanics of achievements and rewards in this game, I came to a realisation that there would come a choice between grinding, content and RL ca$h. Ok, no problem, I've played a number of MMOs b4, there's usually a way of balancing these elements and still getting the F factor from the game.
F=FUN for those that forget...
Now I found this balance in S6, I could do the story lines, do my daily "free" one click and then go on to enjoy a longer more story based foundry mission, thank you kirkfat, hippiejohn and others, some nice work. I read the forums occasionally, really more interested in how I could build my Character and ships in order to ENJOY the STAR TREK experience and to make the "manageable" GRIND more FUN than anything else.
Then S7 hit, suddenly cost in dil had gone up, or on things that made the daily refine limit seem too small, the time needed to GRIND went up, the devs told us that they where adding ways of earning more dil to the game and yet... IOR one click was gone!!!... Gasp, shudder, WTF(lip). OK calm down, it's only a slight change, there are still enough ways of earning dil, most of which have been gone into here ad-nausea.
The protests about those changes brought about the state of affairs where they introduced a new avenue of opportunity for those that wanted to farm dil/FM/ec. It meant that we could earn enough dil/FM/ec in time to leave us able to play longer missions, heck even contribute some to our fleets. All was cool in the pool, less GRIND more fun, and I'll say this now I really miss having more fun than GRIND...
BUT...?
Really...?
20min missions with a half hour cool-down???
I understand that this was a "temporary" measure and would be REPLACED with a different system of acquiring dil/FM/ec, as you(Devs/PWE/whoever) had listened to the concerns of your player/customer base and were working on a more equable play/reward system. OK I'm cool with this, it's temp, enjoy it but expect changes... NP I could live with this compromise and was interested in seeing what would develop.
But this, this, this complete lack of consideration of your players I just don't get. What we had was not breaking the game or the foundry or the Zen market, in fact it was stimulating all of these. It wasn't following the intentions of the foundry, we knew this, you knew this, we knew that you knew this and, funnily enough you knew that we knew this and we all knew that it would change (lol).
So rather than replacing the current flaw/exploit/development you just take it away, no notice, pif paff poof gone... And you "replace" it with what? Well Who knows the foundry is of line... So with the lack of anything you leave us in limbo.
So can't we just be civilized enough to agree that this is a VERY BIG issue. Both for the players side, the foundry authors, who I hope have equal rights with the rest of their fellow STOers, and for Cryptic/PWE/CBS(who I hope watch how their IP is being used/administrated).
Assuming we can agree that a majority of players play this game for the Trek experience or the pew, pew or the rp, or the chance to express their self or whatever, we're all here to play... Now work and play are generally considered to be two separate areas of our daily lives. So why would anyone want to play a game which is becoming more and more like a job? Because we do... I don't know why, but I see more and more games becoming grindfests and people keep playing... I do it and I'm sure many others do, but most games that are grindfests don't change the rules, move the goalposts and bribe the referee at the same time. If they have upcoming changes to the economic mechanics of the game they announce it in advance, they respond to forums and e-mails. They don't just remove one feature that changes the games reward system without some kind of communications.
When I saw the OP I thought, wow, nice DS is going to show us he's willing to bring us the players in and share some constructive dialogue, but damn I'm disappointed.
Been home from work 4 hrs now, played 1hr of that.
I guess I'm frustrated at the mushroom feeling, TALK TO US DEVS...
LET US VENT OUR FEELINGS, but most of all try to put yourselves in the player/investors position.
Those that blame foundry authors for this are very much off the mark, they fill out this game adding content that is lacking in the commercial product. It's a shame that PWE/Cryptic/whoever have done this, but it is not to please a few elitist authors.
Ok enough typing, sorry, but my whole weekend was put aside for STO for the first time in months and I'm a little peeved...;)
Customer service and Public relations
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
:0 it is......ALIVE!!!
See, that's your problem.
Huzzahh, you like the way the game is and what they are doing, so does that mean those who have a different opinion should just shut up and leave?
Why not just go and play the game and leave those unhappy with it, to vent their frustration and anger on these forums?
Now all you have done is create more posts about your post, causing more frustration and more anger to be direct at you and your post.
/Sigh...
I think what stands out more than anything else is that it's a prequal. A prequal with other actors playing the parts of the Star Trek characters we all know and love. After the tragedy that befell Star Wars thanks to the continued meddling of one George Lucas, everyone is predisposed to thinking the movie will suck. Then they watch the movie thinking that and find a reason to confirm it. I also haven't seen the movie for all the above reasons.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
i also thought 09 film was a good action movie still not a fan of the interior or exterior of the ships
Of course, the problem with those rules is that the "Flaming and/or Trolling" section is so vague that it can be taken to mean basically anything.
An argument could be made that practically every post in this thread fits that, since they're all complaining about the changes being made, which would tend to increase discontent. Throw in the bit about not posting unrelated comments under the "Spamming" section, and that takes care of the rest.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~syberghost
Anyway, thanks for checking in, but the fact is people aren't going to simmer down until we get a response with some substance to it, and your "I swear I'm telling them about what's being said here, even though nothing is happening and I don't have any authority" isn't much closer to substantive than us ranting in the first place.
There's more truth to that than you may realize.
I've been playing MUCH less now that I have to grind rep for each individual toon. Hundreds of STFs, bad enough on my main and my alt. Having to grind the exact same stuff a third, forth, fifth time? No dice.
Main is getting Borg and Romulan and Fleet gear.
Alt is getting Borg and fleet gear.
Second Alt, Fleet gear only.
Remaining toons... whatever. I'll leave them open for whatever they cook up next.
Now:
When a game forces players to conform to internal company metrics first and foremost that's a very very bad sign. It is a tremendously bad move for the Lead Producer to basically come on and tell us we are not conforming to his vision and therefore he is adjusting gameplay to bring us inline.
Participation in STO is not mandatory! I can walk away and find a new game, one that suits me. I don't have to sit here and subject myself to the same pitiful selection of raids and endgame maps with broken mechanics. This is why people created the clickies and created short-run foundry maps. People are BOARD TO TEARS with the current selection of grind content! We used the UGC system to fill a void.
This, coupled with the ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC excuse for a quality control system... Or is it poor quality? Did you decide to "punish" the KDF side for not meeting internal metrics? Is that why ET breaks cloak, wrecks Siege Mode and a host of other KDF-specific glitches? I notice no effort was spared to track down the 2-min warning glitch on the Fed side, yet my KDF stuff is still broken...
I've reinstalled Secret World and started downloading WoW. I have plenty of time to game... If I don't get an answer I like from Cryptic about the current situation I plan to cut my participation in STO by a significant amount.
Then again... I already OWN everything in the C-store and have six max-level toons with Lockbox Premium gear. Perhaps they WANT me to leave so someone who doesn't own all that can take my place and spend spend spend....
Let's get back to why we all are really here, it's not about the IOR, not the FM's. Those where just things that made our plight bearable
It's about the lack of FUN
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I must bow to your reasoning (I'm being serious, although I did like aspects of Episodes II and III).
Predisposition does matter. I was skeptical about the project, and actually remaind so (having managed to sit through the destruction of Vulcan expecting some over used temporal reset button). Then came the explaination of the Alternate Reality and I was all like "oh it's like a less evil Mirror Universe and doesn't TRIBBLE with the main timeline, cool." Then I read up on some of the actual theories of quantum mechanics that influened the new timeline and thought the writters did a good job.
The exterior took me a bit of time to get used to. The interior, while being a bit too bright, makes sense in terms of the touchscreens and huds. I watch the various Treks to this day thinking "my iPhone looks more advanced and intuitive than that."
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Simply put nope, there is a clear and obvious stylistic, aesthetic, cinematographic change JJ is much closer to the last TNG film than it is to any of the TOS era films. Even then though there is little no recognizable link to the ethos that defines Star Trek, not only that it doesn't even resemble the same reality or time line.
I like both Event Horizon and ST:2009 but I wouldn't say either is Star Trek. Like I said wait till you see Into Darkness... it will become a lot clearer as to how far JJ has departed from the spirit of Star Trek.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Strangely enough, if we did, there certainly wouldbe a change! (unless their businessmodel is predicated on a high churn rate and very low playerretention)
^ QFT.
It isn't just the lack of fun mind you, it's the seeming lack of respect from the powers that be towards us the players when we say "this isn't fun, this is a grindfest". Or when we say "This is filled with bugs, please can you make the time to fix them?" or even "the game has little in the way of fun endgame content, please can you make the time to make it?".
In other words, we are simply being used as a captive audience of Trek fan/gamer hybrids.
Trek fan/gamer hybrid. That's got to be a golden goose for games companies right there.
I'm not having any fun here. You all know how cranky I get when I'm not having fun.
~Chief Deputy U.S. Marshal Sam Gerard
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Here is the way I like to view the issues with small fleets and larger fleets:
A small fleet *should* have a smaller starbase (T2,3, etc.). They are, after all, smaller, and should, logically, have a smaller starbase. Why would a small fleet get to have a large starbase? That doesn't really make sense. In fact, in my mind at least, these fleet should be able to get a large starbase after "proving" their determination. Before I get a lot of flame for saying that, I'm not saying that smaller fleets don't have that determination and haven't proven it, I'm just trying to provide an explanation here. Look at it as if you were your character in game: Starfleet (or whoever we'd like to say manages fleets) would not give you resources willy-nilly to a small fleet.
Larger fleets, on the other hand, should have larger starbases (T5) because they *are* large fleets and should have larger starbases.
Again, like I said, I'm not trying to provide a solution, I'm trying to give players a way to accept what the devs have done. I don't mean to say that I'm angry about what they've done, in fact I think it makes sense. Let me rephrase that, I understand them limiting the amount of fleet marks that one could get.
All in all, I believe that this decision makes sense that smaller fleets should get smaller starbases (and larger as they become "legendary," if you will). Larger fleets should, naturally, have larger starbases because they are larger.
I am personally in a larger fleet because I wanted to be part of a consistently active fleet. Smaller fleets on the other hand can be harder to find where you have a bunch of active players. These smaller fleets will eventually get their large starbases, and in my mind, they will have become "legendary" in the smaller fleet system because they have achieved such a feat.
P.S. somebody might have already mentioned this on one of the other of the hundred or so pages, but ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
People are going off topic now?
You do understand that by doing so the mods will have a valid reason to close this thread by quoting something like 'This thread has run it's course'
And this is why nothing will ever change.....it's all about herd mentality......you see this sort of thing playing out in governments ALL the time.....
Scandal hits.....the masses clamour for change......weeks pass.....people forget why they were angry and slowly but surely things go back to being as messed up as they were before said scandal.
lol.....people are funny
*cough* Like you are doing too;)
And fundamentally lock out anyone who isn't in a mega fleet from high end gear simply because they don't want to be one of a faceless horde? Absolutely not.
IMHO, it shares the same ethos with the rest of Trek.
I would hope so, sense it is an Alternate Timeline. That would be like complaining the Mirror Universe has little in common with the Prime Universe.
Looks like the new movie will sort of a Kirk vs. Gary Williams scenario. If that holds true, this would be faulting JJ for following a TOS episode. Can't fault someone that follows Trek for not following Trek.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
HUSH!!!
I am a Beta tester player you will respect my autoritah!!!
If you are referring to the "look" of the base (how grand and large it appears when you fly in) then I can maybe see the sense of this. If you are referring to the gear and ships attainable, then no. A small fleet has Vice Admirals just like a large fleet does. If you send an Away Team of five into enemy territory, you don't give them a marshmallow gun because they are a small group while reserving phaser rifles for your army.
Your original sentiment was correct though.
And as such, I will now leave posting and let those who it really does effect, have the floor.
Been a great and interested thread.
Off to bed now and I fully expect the thread to be back on course for it's true meaning (and no it isn't about fun), it's about more than that.
never give up, never surrender...:)
That's all a lot of us want to know and now that you made it known your reading them people will be more inclined to share their displeasure for this change. You (Cryptic) have been changing the game and not listening to the player base about the changes and not giving us (player base) a chance to reply. Your also saying now that the FM in IOR was a temporary thing but have yet to post where you said that. You also mentioned that yes FM will still be in IOR when you changed it from a daily to a repeatable mission.
from 9/5/2012 you said:
So that says nothing about it being temporary or would be removed in the future.
That was said by dstahl when season 6 came out. Lets put it to the test shall we?
Lets use a 50 man fleet:
A Tier 2 project takes 600 fleet marks. They can have 3 projects running at once so that is 1,800 FM needed per day. 1,800 divided by 50 is 36. So each day a person needs to make 36 fleet marks to keep a 50 man fleet going and only be gated by the time factor. BUT wait we now have Embassy too. And that's 630 FM per project for Tier 1 projects and 2 can run at once. So that adds 1,260 FM to the daily. So now the daily is 3,060 so that means each person a day is required to turn in 61.2 so we will say 61 FM. Now that we have what we need per day from each of our 50 members lets see what they have to do for those 2-3 days they are on a week.
So each day 61 FM are needed, that means that in a week you would need to turn in 427. Now your only playing 2 or 3 days a week that means 3 days a week you would need to get at least 142 fleet marks a day. With the way that works out is about 3 hours of grinding fleet marks from the Fleet Actions if they can get 50 per hour. So if you only play 2 days a week that's 213 FM needed, just over 4 hours of grinding fleet marks at 50 per hour.
That is the basic of a 50 man fleet with a tier 2 starbase with tier 2 projects going. Lets do a tier 3 starbase set of projects.
Well those projects are 900 each and you have 3 of them going. That means 2,700 just for the starbase. So that means 54 per day just for starbase. So lets add the embassy at the same rate of 1,260 so that's 3,960 per day needed meaning each of the 50 member squad has to get 79 per day. So if they each need 553 per week. If they play 2 days a week that's 276 per day they play, or 5 hours of grinding FM. If they play 3 days a week that's 184 per day they play, or 3 hours nearly 4 of grinding FM at 50 per hour.
Well lets go up another level. Those project cost 960 per project. Which doesn't add a lot more from the last tier. So that means that it shouldn't slow down a fleet compared to the jump of tier 2 to tier 3.
So to me it looks like dstahl outright lied saying a fleet of 25+ would only hit the time gate. I can not see that a fleet of 50 who play 2-3 times a week will want to grind 3 or 4 of the hours that they play just to advance the fleet when the way to get FM is so dull and un-popular. Bring back the fun
Take the Supergroup system from CoH and copy it wholecloth into STO.
In CoH players earned Prestige (Fleet Marks) by playing any content in the game as long as they were in a fleet. Other rewards were reduced slighty while playing in SG (Fleet) mode as a balance factor.
This system worked PERFECTLY for nearly 8 years.
It really says something about Cryptic and/or PWE that this simple and effective solution is unacceptable to them.
It's not Kirk Vs Gary Mitchell. It would make 0 sense in the new timeline for that to be the case.
The point with the Mirror Universe was that it was the morally inferior of the two...
anyways this is going dangerously off topic, so I will leave it at this.
Though the conversation is more fun than playing the game atm
#2311#2700#2316#2500
Of course everything is fine when you are part of what Cryptic is condoning as an "elite" or "favored" player. What Cryptic is doing by separating large fleets and small fleets is creating a player class division. People who want to be in small fleets are really no concern of the developers, while large fleets get the development time and attention. It's really stupid business, as eventually the small fleets will plod on, and underutilizing the monetization function of the starbase, or just leave the game.
The sensible and most profit generating move is to provide a path for all players -- monetization for starbases really doesn't start until level 5 anyway with fleet modules and obscene amounts of dilithium.
I can understand why, as a member of a large fleet, you want to keep the status quo. I once was part of an elite mmo guild and boy did we fight anything to keep the "lesser people" from ever getting what we had.
They offer almost no functionality and even the big fleet with 400+ members - the places are usually vacant.
Really what is all the fuss about? You want to waste more of your time and money/resources buying over priced ships and gear that are only needed by the 5% of people that pvp in STO?
For endgame play, progressing the SB and embassy are activities that our fleet can engage in (a small fleet). Fleet marks are a choke point. The FM's were the only reason that I played foundry missions and I actually had some fun doing it. But I was doing it for fleet marks. I can earn dilithium other ways more efficiently and have more fun doing it; or we can buy dilithium, if so inclined.
Figure out a way to get the FM's rolling again now, not in three months. Do it IN ADDITION to the IOR repeatable, not in place of. Give me some freakin' choices in how to earn the things needed to progress the SB and embassy. I detest being told how to play the game.
"Unlimited In-Game Mail Access" must mean something different to Cryptic than it does to English.