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Compilation of why cruisers are UP

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  • allmyteeallmytee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Torpedos should do more damage to shields plan and simple. Possibly tie torpedo recharge times to crew.

    Crew regen rate should be set as a percent per second based on initial crew size and more abilities should have thier effects tied to current crew size.

    Heals should be affected by either crew size, or percentage based on shied/hull size.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xiphenon wrote: »
    Materials, however, can have very special abilities. ;-)

    True. It would make sense that any vessel designed for space travel would have materials designed to protect it from said enviroment as much as possible.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    guili1 wrote: »
    Then introduce a new Engi Lt. Cmdr BOFF skill, "Transfer Crew to Ship 1".

    This begs the question how are the TacTeam, SciTeams and EngTeams getting through shields to help other players?
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    This begs the question how are the TacTeam, SciTeams and EngTeams getting through shields to help other players?

    If you know a ships shield frequencies you can get a transporter beam through them with ease, alternatively you can piggyback a transporter signal onto a comm channel
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »

    If you know a ships shield frequencies you can get a transporter beam through them with ease, alternatively you can piggyback a transporter signal onto a comm channel

    Granted thats true if the codes of every starship in the fleet is kept in records on every ship, which has been shown true by Kirk once when He lowered the shields of the vessel Kahn hijacked.
    Though it still seems wonky to me to be doing such to transport people in combat. I wonder how many lifes have been lost in STO due to the untimely arrival of a team of helpful friends right before a vessel exploded?


    I wonder if a BOff ability could be made to represent an enemy stealing your codes?
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    I wonder if a BOff ability could be made to represent an enemy stealing your codes?

    I suppose you could make it a side effect of VM... The other question is the borg's assimilate ship... they can always seem to beam through your shields
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xiphenon wrote: »
    Materials, however, can have very special abilities. Materials e.g. can be super conducting, show heat isolating or heat conducting properties. Materials can even reflect energy (a simple mirror reflects light, which is nothing else then electromagnetic irradiation). Assuming, that the material science in the 25 century is more developed as ours, it can be assumed that hull armor can be designed to withstand energy and particle weapons very well.

    And, as I said, you can always equip Armor consoles to reflect that special materials are in use to deal with special energy resistance.

    Why should we assume that all hulls are specially resistant to energy?

    The Enterprise NX was an armored ship, I believe, reflecting the fact that they didn't have shields.

    Should a freighter have the same energy resistance as a warship? I don't think so.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    True. It would make sense that any vessel designed for space travel would have materials designed to protect it from said enviroment as much as possible.

    Environment, sure.

    Directed energy weapons, perhaps not so much.
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bluegeek wrote: »
    Environment, sure.

    Directed energy weapons, perhaps not so much.

    Really? Considering how much unrestrained and raw energy can fly around in space at a given moment to strike a vessel, I would think energy dispurtion, absorption or reflection would be on the "need" list during the design phase nad such a design feature would offer some inherent defense.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    I suppose you could make it a side effect of VM... The other question is the borg's assimilate ship... they can always seem to beam through your shields

    Possibly they just run through all known frequencies when they Transport?
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Possibly they just run through all known frequencies when they Transport?

    Nah, whatever you are transporting would bounce off the shields and they would detect any successful transport causing them to remodulate forcing you to start again. whereas you use VM on a ship and it feeds back the shield frequencies although that would be overpowered because you can remodulate weaponry to cut directly through shields then making the stat worthless
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • xiphenonxiphenon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bluegeek wrote: »
    And, as I said, you can always equip Armor consoles to reflect that special materials are in use to deal with special energy resistance.

    Why should we assume that all hulls are specially resistant to energy?

    The Enterprise NX was an armored ship, I believe, reflecting the fact that they didn't have shields.

    Should a freighter have the same energy resistance as a warship? I don't think so.

    I have to admit, that is a valid point. We have to differ between the amount of damage a hull can take because of it sheer sizes and the amount of damage the a hull can withstand without being majorly damaged because of its armor.

    So, then the logical step would be to increase the damage resistance of armor consoles against energy weapons, while keeping the kinetic armor values at the same level.


    At the same time, hull values of cruisers should be moderately increased, so that these ship types profit more from a higher damage reduction than smaler escorts. IMHO the hull of the Galaxy or Sovergein cruiser should be minimum double as high as the hull of the defaint.

    Another intresting system would be to give armor not a flat damage reduction but a health condition like for shields and hull and add a layered penetration system based on the condition of the highest layer.

    Meaning: A starship takes shield damage. Based on the condition of the shield an amount of damage is given to the armor. If the shield fails, the damage goes directly on armor (like now on the hull). Based on the condition of the armor, damage goes to the hull, or better named as ship damage. Shields regenerate fast, armor already slower (slower than now hull damage can be reapaired) and hull/ship reapair would be quite time consumptive and could only be performed out of combat. Based on the damage on the hull/ship, there could be some malfunctions, e.g. lower energy output, decreaded total shield strenght, decreased weapon damage.

    IMHO, this would make the damage system more intresting. But I doubt that Cryptic/PWE would introduce such a system ...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xiphenon wrote: »
    I have to admit, that is a valid point. We have to differ between the amount of damage a hull can take because of it sheer sizes and the amount of damage the a hull can withstand without being majorly damaged because of its armor.

    So, then the logical step would be to increase the damage resistance of armor consoles against energy weapons, while keeping the kinetic armor values at the same level.
    Kahless knows thats for true. I'm tired of losing a percentage of my single Armor console due to diminishing returns. Its a vlaued Nuetronium at 17.5% that reads aproximately 12% when equipped. That makes no sense in the high DPS world of PewPew online. That missing percentage is needed.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Kahless knows thats for true. I'm tired of losing a percentage of my single Armor console due to diminishing returns. Its a vlaued Nuetronium at 17.5% that reads aproximately 12% when equipped. That makes no sense in the high DPS world of PewPew online. That missing percentage is needed.

    The only catch here is that it would be easy to get 100% resist, and then you're invincible. I agree that the engineering consoles are a little weak. Maybe buff them so that hull resistance actually matters and is something you can increase to the point that you can survive without shields. I mean for crying out loud, I have the hull armor and kinetic resist skills maxed on my engi, and with 4 MK XI blue neutroniums, I still can only get up to 44% resist. Which against the borg is almost meaningless. And against players? Yeah, don't even bother. And here's the even bigger catch. Again, with defensive skills maxed, and with 4 mk XII PURPLE neutronium, I can only get my resists up to 47%. That's +80 to all energy and kinetic resist, with maxed skills. And with that I can only get up to 47%? Seriously? That's just wrong if you ask me.

    With that +80 resist I would prefer to get at least 60% hull resist... And with the +70 resist from the 4 mk XI I would like at least 50% resist. Consider this: With 4 mk XII consoles that are specific, you can get up to 200 resist with a 5 console ship. That still only nets you 75% resistance to damage. And only a very specific damage. Which renders tanking a lot harder. Not impossible, but harder. However, thankfully the tier 4 omega shield passive makes tanking a lot less painful.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The only catch here is that it would be easy to get 100% resist, and then you're invincible.
    I only want the diminishing returns to not effect the first console placed as it automatically devalues it against nothing else.
    As one puts more consoles past the first on a build the diminishing returns can function as normal, so I do lose a little for having two or three of the same console.

    As it stands now if I placed 4 completely different consoles to say covers a little of all teh energy types I lose effectiveness on each to a phantasm diminishing return that should not take effect until the 2nd of any type is placed on the build.

    for example;

    I have 1 Nuetronium, 1 Monotanium and two Ablative armors on a build.
    I should see the Nuetronium as a 17.5% value on my ship before any skills are applied, not as a 12.5% value since this is the only Nuet I am equiping.

    I should see the Monotnium as a 35% value on my ship before any skills are applied, not as a 27.5% value since I only have one equipped.

    The Two Ablatives should suffer from a diminishing return effect on the second but not the first.

    Curently this is not, in my experience, how this works in the game. We get penalized for using the first console alone just as we would if we had two equipped.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • canis36canis36 Member Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    I only want the diminishing returns to not effect the first console placed as it automatically devalues it against nothing else.
    As one puts more consoles past the first on a build the diminishing returns can function as normal, so I do lose a little for having two or three of the same console.

    As it stands now if I placed 4 completely different consoles to say covers a little of all teh energy types I lose effectiveness on each to a phantasm diminishing return that should not take effect until the 2nd of any type is placed on the build.

    for example;

    I have 1 Nuetronium, 1 Monotanium and two Ablative armors on a build.
    I should see the Nuetronium as a 17.5% value on my ship before any skills are applied, not as a 12.5% value since this is the only Nuet I am equiping.

    I should see the Monotnium as a 35% value on my ship before any skills are applied, not as a 27.5% value since I only have one equipped.

    The Two Ablatives should suffer from a diminishing return effect on the second but not the first.

    Curently this is not, in my experience, how this works in the game. We get penalized for using the first console alone just as we would if we had two equipped.

    Fundemental error - you're looking at the consoles and seeing percent values when they're integer values (at one point the tooltips did mistakenly have a "%" appended, but that's been fixed last I saw). That's the way the diminishing returns work on the armor consoles - they don't give you a percentage resist, but an integer value that's plugged into a formula somewhere in the background.

    TBH, I'd prefer if they swapped the armor consoles over to a one console per ship (ablative, monotanium, neutronium are each different consoles and can all be equipped to the same ship, but no more than one of each) with a flat +% damage resist, but that'd cause critical whine mass because people could no longer have multiple neutroniums.
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited December 2012
    sparhawk wrote: »
    FAW was indeed better once upon a time, but it has always been more akin to cannon scatter volley skill than the rapid cannon fire skill. I'm not sure what the best approach would be here.

    Point B is where I believe we should focus more attention for beam arrays. The options to improve this could possibly be:

    a) Eliminate range damage drop off entirely so the damage is always consistent.

    b) Reduce the range damage drop off and also increase the damage as the target gets closer. This would give beams more punch.

    c) Give beams more range so they have a longer engagement range.

    d) Add an additional volley to the firing cycle to increase damage output.

    Posters have also suggested heavy beam arrays for cruisers that would work more like heavy cannons giving more spike damage potential.


    This would be a step in the right direction

    Fix commander level engineering skils to match Tactical skills in effectiviness

    Engineering team I II III should be buffed like tactical team made more useful

    Shared cooldowns in engineering should be looked at again
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The funny thing is that my fleet Nova maxed out could keep up with my maxed out Fleet Excelsior if the Nova swapped the ensign sci for an ensign eng and took a copy of EPtW...

    This makes me think to myself "Really?" We all know the Excelsior is one of the highest end DPS cruisers in the game and yet a science ship is keeping up on the damage and has more ability to mess with enemies and can hold together for almost as long in pvp.

    Then there is the DHC that it equivalent to 2 beam arrays and is more efficient with power and buffs which makes them even more powerful. I think their buffs need a drawback, beams need a slight buff (5-10%) and the buffs for those need a rethink on the basis of cannons having been developed to produce "equivalent damage to beams".
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bluegeek wrote: »
    And, as I said, you can always equip Armor consoles to reflect that special materials are in use to deal with special energy resistance.

    Why should we assume that all hulls are specially resistant to energy?

    The Enterprise NX was an armored ship, I believe, reflecting the fact that they didn't have shields.

    Should a freighter have the same energy resistance as a warship? I don't think so.

    Its not so much as resilience to energy, but more the point that an energy weapon would more of a "piercing" nature than a kinetic (torpedo) would.

    Beam arrays and DBB should be the most "piercing" weapons of the game,

    Cannon type weapons in the midlands (not as focused, more sizable balls of damage) a sort of hybrid

    Torpedos and mines highly kinetic (explosions)

    High Pierce weapons should do the most damage to shields and least to hull

    High Kinetic weapons should do the most hull damage and least to shields.

    Does that make more sense?
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    canis36 wrote: »

    Fundemental error

    Not surprising. I have long been unsure of how the inner working of the armor worked.

    Still how could one every reach Cap in any one resistance given how they work?

    I still contend that the idea of Hull offering a small inherent damage resist based on vessel Hull size is a good idea to lessen the occurence of attacks that take one from 100% to 1% in a single pass.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    sparhawk wrote: »

    a) Eliminate range damage drop off entirely so the damage is always consistent.

    b) Reduce the range damage drop off and also increase the damage as the target gets closer. This would give beams more punch.
    Having consistant damage at any range and giving the beams more damage as one gets closer to target is inconsistent and too powerful.

    They would hit the same at 10km or 1km and hit harder as one closed range????
    c) Give beams more range so they have a longer engagement range.
    And then this makes them sniper weapons. All one has to do is constantly run from the Target and kite them to death with damage that does not depriciate over range.

    I do not agree with this idea.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • xiphenonxiphenon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The only catch here is that it would be easy to get 100% resist, and then you're invincible. I agree that the engineering consoles are a little weak. Maybe buff them so that hull resistance actually matters and is something you can increase to the point that you can survive without shields. I mean for crying out loud, I have the hull armor and kinetic resist skills maxed on my engi, and with 4 MK XI blue neutroniums, I still can only get up to 44% resist. Which against the borg is almost meaningless.

    To avoid 100% resistance, a hard cap could be introduced at 80%. Beside, even with 100% energy resistance, you would still take damage by kinetic damage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    jellico1 wrote: »

    Fix commander level engineering skils to match Tactical skills in effectiviness

    Effectiveness how?
    Auxiliary to Structural III, is a really great heal to cycle and works well.
    Boarding Party III, needs to be killed and replaced with something else.
    Directed Energy Modulation III, works great already.
    Extend Shields III, The goto Healer ability to keep someone alive under fire.
    Reverse Shield Polarity III, have no idea if anyone uses this.
    Aceton Beam III, could use some more punch.
    Eject Warp Plasma III, is scary effective.

    Engineering team I II III should be buffed like tactical team made more useful

    I think both Science and Engineering teams need a look at.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    And then this makes them sniper weapons. All one has to do is constantly run from the Target and kite them to death with damage that does not depriciate over range.

    I do not agree with this idea.

    The idea is that the drop off is reduced not eliminated, maybe extend the range to 15Km with the damage and drop off modified to get the current 10km dmg from 15km.

    This would give the extra range safe to add to the game without making beams overpowered
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xiphenon wrote: »
    To avoid 100% resistance, a hard cap could be introduced at 80%. Beside, even with 100% energy resistance, you would still take damage by kinetic damage.

    There already is a hard cap at 75%.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Hull resistance is already laughably easy to keep high depending on build but still ineffective because of how low hull values are combined with the lower heal amounts compared to shields. Especially when you take into account passive shield regeneration which can be quite significant at high shield power levels that most use compared to passive hull regeneration after your crew all dies to a plasma fire. Remember total base amounts mean very little in real gameplay it is the heal/regen amounts combined with high resist amounts that lead to effective tanking. EPTS + Extend = amazing.

    Now if say, a console similar to the field generator for hull was introduced, or even better dual armor consoles that provided both armor and increased hull total and/or hull heals like I'm sure the next starbase addition will have those could change everything. Especially with a new tier of ships that have more base hull/shield but no increase in boff ability effectiveness like the fleet ships do but that won't be till season 10 I'm sure.

    On the positive side the new rep passives scale with the ship's maximum hull.
  • sparhawksparhawk Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Having consistant damage at any range and giving the beams more damage as one gets closer to target is inconsistent and too powerful.

    They would hit the same at 10km or 1km and hit harder as one closed range????

    And then this makes them sniper weapons. All one has to do is constantly run from the Target and kite them to death with damage that does not depriciate over range.

    I do not agree with this idea.

    Just to clarify things, these ideas were not meant to be mutually inclusive. They were meant to be individual possible options. All of those options at once would obviously be overpowered.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    If you want your cruiser to dps then you're doing it wrong.
    Lenny Barre, lvl 60 DC. 18k.
    God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    diogene0 wrote: »
    If you want your cruiser to dps then you're doing it wrong.

    More accurately:

    If you want your cruiser to DPS and still be an awesome tank, you're expecting too much. If you want your cruiser to tank like a boss (what it was designed to do) and still hit like a freight train, you're expecting too much.

    However if your cruiser can't do either one successfully, they you are indeed doing it wrong.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • xiphenonxiphenon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    More accurately:

    If you want your cruiser to DPS and still be an awesome tank, you shoud fly an escort

    corrected for you. :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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