On second thought, the ability to rebalance that much bonus power would be a significant change and put other ships at a disadvantage.
Maybe give cruisers an innate bonus to Electro-Plasma Systems in addition to the +5 in every power level? The ability to reallocate power faster would be enough of an advantage without necessarily being too much of an advantage.
A +bonus to Electro-Plasma systems is a nice innate perk, especially since this buffs EPtX abilities.
I was surprised to find that many in my casual fleet never adjust power-allocation settings. I have my power presets mapped using F5 thru F8. The last setting is assigned to 100 base auxiliary power to speed up hull heals.
On second thought, the ability to rebalance that much bonus power would be a significant change and put other ships at a disadvantage.
The situation would be:
Federation cruisers = +5 innate power all systems, +20 discretionary power, science console focus
versus
KDF cruisers = +10 innate power to weapons and engines, +30 to 40% turn rate, dual cannons, cloaking device, tactical console focus
Frankly I see the situation as being laughably one-sided in KDF's favor right now. They have significant advantages they don't really sacrifice anything to get. Giving federation cruiser +20 power to use as they see fit would largely even the playing field as far as I see.
Federation cruisers = +5 innate power all systems, +20 discretionary power, science console focus
versus
KDF cruisers = +10 innate power to weapons and engines, +30 to 40% turn rate, dual cannons, cloaking device, tactical console focus
Frankly I see the situation as being laughably one-sided in KDF's favor right now. They have significant advantages they don't really sacrifice anything to get. Giving federation cruiser +20 power to use as they see fit would largely even the playing field as far as I see.
The sad part is that the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to be technologically superior to the KDF. Fed warp engines are faster, ship-frames stronger, their weapons hit harder, etc... despite the fact that the bulk of Starfleet ships are not war-ships. The KDF may be thousands of years old, but since they rule by conquest, they do not have the same free-flow of information that a utopian democracy like the Federation enjoys. However, since the STO KDF have very little content compared to the STO Feds, giving them canon-accurate stats would have doomed the STO Faction PVP model, hence they are given better-than-canon stats to compensate.
The sad part is that the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to be technologically superior to the KDF. Fed warp engines are faster, ship-frames stronger, their weapons hit harder, etc... despite the fact that the bulk of Starfleet ships are not war-ships. The KDF may be thousands of years old, but since they rule by conquest, they do not have the same free-flow of information that a utopian democracy like the Federation enjoys. However, since the STO KDF have very little content compared to the STO Feds, giving them canon-accurate stats would have doomed the STO Faction PVP model, hence they are given better-than-canon stats to compensate.
Your statement is laughable.
Give the evidence that shows Star Fleets superiority on all levels.
Give the evidence that Klingon Empire social system is inferior in function the UFP.
Show me and all players this evidence that makes Kirks statement, " Barbarians do not rule star empires." about Klingon Empire untrue.
You are the poster child of the arrogant fed fan. Unwilling to accept that other races in ST have come just as far, if not farther, both as cultures and with technology.
KDF ships are better in STO because they are designed more for combat and STO is a combat focused game.
Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
FYI, only 1 federation cruiser which has more HP than a KDF cruiser (Fleet Negh'var), and thats the galaxy class. The FleetStarcruiser, Fleet assualt, fleet advanced heavy cruise have the same hull and shield stats, odyssey has less hull but 0.05 more shields. The Galaxy class has 1,100 more hull.
So, because the KDF are damage based, they need 2 to 3 more turn, cloak and cannons. To balance this against the fed, they get minus 1 battery slot.
You mean because the KDF value conquest and combat over the federations ideal of exploration and peaceful coexistance they designed the vessel to be combat first and foremost.
Cloaks they have had for almost as long as the humans have known of the KDF. It was not given to KDF vessels as a game compinsation.
The IP also demonstrates that the KDF uses a lot of cannons. Another thing that was not "given" us as compinsation.
The differences between Cruiser and Battle cruiser rests in thier names.
The Battle cruiser is a vessel for combat the Cruiser is a multipurpose vessel of exploration.
Thats why the Feds made the Escort class. To fill the void of not having a dedicated combat vessel.
You mean because the KDF value conquest and combat over the federations ideal of exploration and peaceful coexistance they designed the vessel to be combat first and foremost.
Cloaks they have had for almost as long as the humans have known of the KDF. It was not given to KDF vessels as a game compinsation.
The IP also demonstrates that the KDF uses a lot of cannons. Another thing that was not "given" us as compinsation.
The differences between Cruiser and Battle cruiser rests in thier names.
The Battle cruiser is a vessel for combat the Cruiser is a multipurpose vessel of exploration.
Thats why the Feds made the Escort class. To fill the void of not having a dedicated combat vessel.
They once considered Earth the center of the universe. The ignorant revel in folly.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Federation cruisers = +5 innate power all systems, +20 discretionary power, science console focus
versus
KDF cruisers = +10 innate power to weapons and engines, +30 to 40% turn rate, dual cannons, cloaking device, tactical console focus
Frankly I see the situation as being laughably one-sided in KDF's favor right now. They have significant advantages they don't really sacrifice anything to get. Giving federation cruiser +20 power to use as they see fit would largely even the playing field as far as I see.
Actually KDF sacrifices Hull, Shields, and Hardpoints for a Cloaking Device innate to the IP and one class of ships with all Universal Bridge Officer slots. Prior to the advent of Fleet Ships, The Federation received a Cloaking Device on more than one ship and Universal slots without taking a penalty to the previously mentioned ship hardware statistics. With the advent of Fleet Ships, many Federation vessels now have Universal slots without sacrificing anything while KDF vessels continue to suffer the penalties of such. Clearly the playing field you envision tilted is skewed in your favor.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Give the evidence that shows Star Fleets superiority on all levels.
Give the evidence that Klingon Empire social system is inferior in function the UFP.
Well:
1) Fed' races do frequently bathe
2) We have hot Vulcan and Andorian babes
3) Chuck Norris was a human, not a Klingon
4) Most importantly I am in Starfleet, I make the uniform look good
KDF ships are better in STO because they are designed more for combat and STO is a combat focused game.
But seriously, Fed' cruisers do need a hair bit of a bump in game. Not as much as most people are arguing for but just a taste. Upping Beam Array and DBB damage a smidgen (maybe 5% would go a long way). Ships like the Bortas line could also take advantage of this bump as well.
don't know if this has been proposed before, but how about giving cruisers innate abilities like sci ships have: beam overload and fire at will, or torp spread. This would help almost all cruisers by freeing up boff abilities for tac team etc.
Give the evidence that shows Star Fleets superiority on all levels.
Give the evidence that Klingon Empire social system is inferior in function the UFP.
Show me and all players this evidence that makes Kirks statement, " Barbarians do not rule star empires." about Klingon Empire untrue.
You are the poster child of the arrogant fed fan. Unwilling to accept that other races in ST have come just as far, if not farther, both as cultures and with technology.
KDF ships are better in STO because they are designed more for combat and STO is a combat focused game.
Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
I think I'll have to call you out on this one.
The Feds didn't blow up their moon and in fact possibly saved the Empire when they blew up theirs.
While it is true that the Empire is judged based on our own earthly and modern sensibilities its a fact that the Empire commits atrocities on a daily basis without giving it a second though. Kidnapping for torture and execution, and slavery are just some of the things we as players get to partake in the game itself.
The Federation could decide to simply send cloaked Genesis torpedoes to some or all of the Empire's planets and put an end to them but chooses to stay its hand and NOT destroy the empire. That shows a certain amount of civility. Does anyone for a moment think the Empire would be as restrained? In the game we once again see this first hand. B'vat gets a Doomsday Device and everyone thinks its a FANTASTIC IDEA to go around wiping out planets. In fact the ONE Klingon to show a bit of restraint and common sense is labelled a traitor and shows what REAL Klingon honor should be about.
Had the Klingons not been uplifted by an alien race would they have even made it off their planet? Would they have survived their atomic age, assuming they even got there before constant warfare would continually force their tech levels to reset?
Kirk's infamous quote about barbarians and star empires is often repeated..... but it doesn't mean he was right. Klingons ARE barbarians for all practical purposes. They expand through conquest, have an honor code more about appearing honorable than actually being honorable, and think of everyone else as either just bellow them or with outright contempt for not being bloodthirsty warriors.
So yeah, their society IS inferior in all ways.
Doesn't mean its not fun to play them though. After all, thanks to game balance they are equally as powerful as the Feds.
Give the evidence that shows Star Fleets superiority on all levels.
Give the evidence that Klingon Empire social system is inferior in function the UFP.
Show me and all players this evidence that makes Kirks statement, " Barbarians do not rule star empires." about Klingon Empire untrue.
You are the poster child of the arrogant fed fan. Unwilling to accept that other races in ST have come just as far, if not farther, both as cultures and with technology.
What I stated is based on established Star Trek canon only, not STO game details.
Military Dictatorships have inherent problems with information flow because that government system routinely restricts certain subjects to prevent its populace from organizing against the ruling government. This leash prevents the free flow exchange of ideas. Research data is often redacted as state secrets, classified, never published, etc... so scientists and researchers do not get to openly share ideas which lead to breakthroughs in seemingly unrelated topics of study.
After all, when was the last time you heard of any non-nuclear inovations coming out of North Korea?
On the Star Trek canon history:
1) The Brel BoP in ST IV had a more primitive dilithium power system, and Scotty clearly mentions upgrading it to more modern Fed Standards, including replacing the food replicators
2) The Feds created the Genesis Torpedo, the most powerful weapon ever made by either side. However, being a bunch of do-gooders, the UFP never brought this terrible weapon to bear on the KDF's populated worlds nor space fleets. I would not be surprised if Section31 has a few on hand just in case the Federation ever faces defeat.
3) Klingon ships typically maxxed out at Warp 8 in STTNG. The Galaxy Class Enterprise was among the fastest non-transwarp ships at 9.98.
4) The Federation developed the phase cloak in "The Pegasus" S7E12 but could not use it due to the Treaty of Algeron. The Klingons obtained their cloaking technology from their short-lived alliance with the Romulans. Yes, they did make some improvements (e.g., improved battle cloak from ST VI), but without the Romulans, they would have never gotten that far.
These are just some examples off the top of my head.
Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
There's no need to be snide... this is just a game based on a utopian future that has almost no chance of happening (it takes the whole fuel supply of our Terran Sun to accelerate one atom to actual warp speeds).
Unfortunately we never hear about the KDF's marvelous inovations because they have a feudal military council running their show, and as you've seen in the case of the House of Duras, competing factions within the KDF, hence the need for secrecy and restricted information flow. They also look upon their own scientist with contempt as a lower class (the warrior class gets all the "honors"). The KDF is several thousands of years old, while the UFP is only a few centuries, yet look at how quickly the UFP jumped ahead of the Klingons in the technology race.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I do play an LG1 KDF Orion Sci... couldn't stay clear of their unique costumes!
The Feds didn't blow up their moon and in fact possibly saved the Empire when they blew up theirs.
While it is true that the Empire is judged based on our own earthly and modern sensibilities its a fact that the Empire commits atrocities on a daily basis without giving it a second though. Kidnapping for torture and execution, and slavery are just some of the things we as players get to partake in the game itself.
The Federation could decide to simply send cloaked Genesis torpedoes to some or all of the Empire's planets and put an end to them but chooses to stay its hand and NOT destroy the empire. That shows a certain amount of civility. Does anyone for a moment think the Empire would be as restrained? In the game we once again see this first hand. B'vat gets a Doomsday Device and everyone thinks its a FANTASTIC IDEA to go around wiping out planets. In fact the ONE Klingon to show a bit of restraint and common sense is labelled a traitor and shows what REAL Klingon honor should be about.
Had the Klingons not been uplifted by an alien race would they have even made it off their planet? Would they have survived their atomic age, assuming they even got there before constant warfare would continually force their tech levels to reset?
Kirk's infamous quote about barbarians and star empires is often repeated..... but it doesn't mean he was right. Klingons ARE barbarians for all practical purposes. They expand through conquest, have an honor code more about appearing honorable than actually being honorable, and think of everyone else as either just bellow them or with outright contempt for not being bloodthirsty warriors.
So yeah, their society IS inferior in all ways.
Doesn't mean its not fun to play them though. After all, thanks to game balance they are equally as powerful as the Feds.
The Klingons may have blown up 3/4 of a moon due to heavy industry but shall we take a look at the history of the founding member of the Federation? I do believe Q explores this rather well during the Farpoint mission. Perhaps the Eugenics Wars? World War III and the Post-atomic horror? That Earth authentic court Q held didn't appear all that civilized or honorable. Developing illegal cloaking devices which failed killing the crew? Had the Vulcans not been in the vicinity, for business other than the relative Earth primitives mind you, would the warp flight mattered at all as Earth continues to bicker amongst their post-atomic factions?
For all the utopia the Federation clamors to be one need only look as far as an away team. Stagnant thinking causes them all to take cover behind the same object in every firefight causing the entire team to be pinned down. Or look at the reason the ship full of women and children is gallivanting about at all. The society is so stagnant and bored with its own existence that it fills its flagship with civilians and tells it to just go anywhere but here, constantly placing innocent people in harm's way. Not exactly the mark of an enlightened society.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
The Klingons may have blown up 3/4 of a moon due to heavy industry but shall we take a look at the history of the founding member of the Federation? I do believe Q explores this rather well during the Farpoint mission. Perhaps the Eugenics Wars? World War III and the Post-atomic horror? That Earth authentic court Q held didn't appear all that civilized or honorable. Developing illegal cloaking devices which failed killing the crew? Had the Vulcans not been in the vicinity, for business other than the relative Earth primitives mind you, would the warp flight mattered at all as Earth continues to bicker amongst their post-atomic factions?
For all the utopia the Federation clamors to be one need only look as far as an away team. Stagnant thinking causes them all to take cover behind the same object in every firefight causing the entire team to be pinned down. Or look at the reason the ship full of women and children is gallivanting about at all. The society is so stagnant and bored with its own existence that it fills its flagship with civilians and tells it to just go anywhere but here, constantly placing innocent people in harm's way. Not exactly the mark of an enlightened society.
Its kinda interesting how you bring up some of the best of Rodenberry's Soapbox Shennannigans. But, as much as I love to point out how flawed Rodenberry's hand in TNG was it IS part of cannon. And yet, for all those bad points you bring up the Federation's founding member in question managed to move beyond it in a relatively short amount of time, how long have Klingons been throwing their weight around before the Federation or even Earth showed up in the scene? So long and so little change... talk about stagnant, hundreds of years of bullying others and so little to show for it. Tsk, tsk.
Thankfully Rodenberry left the Star Trek franchise early enough that the later series were not as heavy handed in pushing an impossible society. DS9 even goes so far as to explore the sacrifices needed to keep such an outwardly utopian society alive in an unfriendly and outright hostile galaxy.
Edit: Actually, I notice a lot of passionate players are more or less in denial of what the Klingon Empire really is. Why is that? Its pretty clear from the existing content and the Doff assignments currently available. How can anyone say they really like the KDF without accepting what they are? Its bizarre and reeks of denial. Unnecessary denial at that, the Klingon Empire are mostly a bunch of jerks and thugs masquerading as honorable warriors. There are some exceptions making a superb effort in moving beyond that but they're not there yet. Why is that a bad thing? My KDF alt happily goes around raiding and getting slaves for fun and profit and that's ok because that's what they DO.
Its kinda interesting how you bring up some of the best of Rodenberry's Soapbox Shennannigans. But, as much as I love to point out how flawed Rodenberry's hand in TNG was it IS part of cannon. And yet, for all those bad points you bring up the Federation's founding member in question managed to move beyond it in a relatively short amount of time, how long have Klingons been throwing their weight around before the Federation or even Earth showed up in the scene? So long and so little change... talk about stagnant, hundreds of years of bullying others and so little to show for it. Tsk, tsk.
Thankfully Rodenberry left the Star Trek franchise early enough that the later series were not as heavy handed in pushing an impossible society. DS9 even goes so far as to explore the sacrifices needed to keep such an outwardly utopian society alive in an unfriendly and outright hostile galaxy.
Edit: Actually, I notice a lot of passionate players are more or less in denial of what the Klingon Empire really is. Why is that? Its pretty clear from the existing content and the Doff assignments currently available. How can anyone say they really like the KDF without accepting what they are? Its bizarre and reeks of denial. Unnecessary denial at that, the Klingon Empire are mostly a bunch of jerks and thugs masquerading as honorable warriors. There are some exceptions making a superb effort in moving beyond that but they're not there yet. Why is that a bad thing? My KDF alt happily goes around raiding and getting slaves for fun and profit and that's ok because that's what they DO.
Klingons are who Klingons are. We know what the Empire is as we are the Empire. We are comfortable with who we are making your discomfort inconsequential as you seek for force your beliefs on others. We conquest through might. You conquest through propaganda and subterfuge. This is clearly evident in the recent posts by you and your cohorts.
Now I believe we were discussing the fallacy that Cruisers are underpowered were we not?
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Because people love their secondhand spaceorcs who are getting their asses kicked by pregnant women And don't start about our wannabe paladins, who send their families into every war and dangerous zones :eek:
Both civilizations are impossible. The feds are so stupid good, they just deserve to die :-P
And the klingons are so stupid evil, you have to wonder how did they ever got into space? xD
I would say back to topic ...
I like my Attack Cruiser. I just wish it would turn better. Hopefully we get something like the breen cruiser with the look of an federation ship.
Klingons are who Klingons are. We know what the Empire is as we are the Empire. We are comfortable with who we are making your discomfort inconsequential as you seek for force your beliefs on others. We conquest through might. You conquest through propaganda and subterfuge. This is clearly evident in the recent posts by you and your cohorts.
Now I believe we were discussing the fallacy that Cruisers are underpowered were we not?
You ROLE-PLAY very well
But I agree... let's get back on topic...
PS: If STO ever starts a Dominion faction, I'm switching sides!
PS: If STO ever starts a Dominion faction, I'm switching sides!
It's what I do.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
In all fairness if you know how to build cruisers aren't that bad, I think that couple of adjustments to beams are in order to account for the DPS-centric nature of the game but it's not essential, my 6 beam Excelsior does a good 28k per firing cycle which is enough to compete with escorts to a point (basic buffs).
The general problem I'm seeing is that, even if you get an cruiser to the dmg of an escort, why you want to fly an cruiser anyway, if an escort is much easier to build, to fly and less stressing in movement?
Cruisers, science ships and escort should differ in their roles. The way of an escort is defined: pure battle ships diesigned to provide firepower and enough defense to deliver their payload.
Cruisers, as the Enterprise in the canon, can provide firepower, can absorb attacks, but their main role was always multi purpose.
Science ships, as the Voyager, were mainly meant for deep space exploration but providing them enough firepower to defend them self.
In my opinion, escorts, science ships and cruisers should have some additional slots, like weapons slots or consumable slots, where they can equiup science and engeenering facilities.
Of couse, science ships should have more science slot facilities than cruisers, while cruisers might have more engeenering facilities. Escorts may have none or only one slot.
There facilities should have MK ratings like weapons, shield and armor consoles. They would allow to trigger special ways of solving end game content.
E.g. a science ship with a science facillity equipped could supress spawing of repair nanites in STFs for some time. It could be able to undo parts of the tholian web in vault ensared and so on.
Similar, engeenering facilities on a cruiser could e.g. allow to reduce the player respawn timer in end game content, allow to suceed in the optional in protecing the kang even if the ships drops below the hull damage value, etc.
Additional optionals, or even complete missions, which are only solvable when you have science and engeenering facilties equiped could be added to pvp and pve.
Sadly this would only serve to make Escorts all the more powerful in pve *BOOM* "Oh look, I died, I have an engineering facility, I'll get up in a few less seconds than before and tear more stuff to shreds sooner". Don't get me wrong, I like your idea but I think it is one for a later date when things are balanced enough to make this doable without destroying what remains of the balance.
The sad part is that the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to be technologically superior to the KDF. Fed warp engines are faster, ship-frames stronger, their weapons hit harder, etc... despite the fact that the bulk of Starfleet ships are not war-ships. The KDF may be thousands of years old, but since they rule by conquest, they do not have the same free-flow of information that a utopian democracy like the Federation enjoys. However, since the STO KDF have very little content compared to the STO Feds, giving them canon-accurate stats would have doomed the STO Faction PVP model, hence they are given better-than-canon stats to compensate.
Wasn't it said somewhere in canon that KDF impulse thruster technology was superior to that of the Feds because Klinkydinks had more direct martial experience or something?
In a very broad sense the UFP is gonna be more technologically advanced, sure, but I don't think it's as cut and dry in every area as you're painting it.
Wasn't it said somewhere in canon that KDF impulse thruster technology was superior to that of the Feds because Klinkydinks had more direct martial experience or something?
In a very broad sense the UFP is gonna be more technologically advanced, sure, but I don't think it's as cut and dry in every area as you're painting it.
It's actually very simple. The UFP is more advanced in warp drive and sensor technology, in addition to scientific labs and most engineering nitty gritty detail oriented things (like EPS conduit systems, and computer technology). Basically everything they'd need to explore and catalog things. They VASTLY out-do the KDF in those areas. They also have superior shield technology in the sense that their shields are designed to deal with more types of threats from the environment (i.e radiation, energy, that kind of thing).
However at sub-light speeds, KDF ships have the advantage. Their ships have more powerful impulse engines and thrusters, designed for maximum output over shorter periods of time. As weapon technology goes, the KDF use more archaic but still very effective weaponry. As hull goes, KDF ships have much better armor technology. This has always been the case. If a KDF battlecruiser rammed a fed cruiser, it's likely the KDF ship would just keep on going more or less intact, while the fed ship would probably be in multiple very large chunks.
The only faction that can match (and in some cases out-strip) the KDF in combat technology is the Dominion, and that's only because Dominion ships were designed exclusively for combat (I think Weiyun (yeah, I probably spelled that wrong) even said that the founders designed their ships to match what was flying them, purely combat ships for purely soldiers). The Breen just have one ship design that was really combat oriented, and that's the Chel'gret, but it's a VERY capable, maneuverable, and nasty ship (not just in STO, but in canon as well).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Try the Excelsior, you'll love the difference in handling.
Yeah, I know... But I DISLIKE they ugly and ****y Excelsior design. Even worse than that TRIBBLE Connie. Yeah Tos era ships are not my favorite designs ;-)
Yeah, I know... But I DISLIKE they ugly and ****y Excelsior design. Even worse than that TRIBBLE Connie. Yeah Tos era ships are not my favorite designs ;-)
It's up to you. You can drive a design that you like the look of and be less effective with your desired play style, or deal with a ship that you don't like the look of and be more effective.
I absolutely hate the look of the Garumba, but for what it can do, you can't beat it.
Wasn't it said somewhere in canon that KDF impulse thruster technology was superior to that of the Feds because Klinkydinks had more direct martial experience or something?
In a very broad sense the UFP is gonna be more technologically advanced, sure, but I don't think it's as cut and dry in every area as you're painting it.
I finally found the dat that talks upon that and will post it later. Basically if one goes back to the beginings of both the Empire and Star Fleet and looks at the technologies the KDF is ahead in Impulse and Shield technology due to the Hurg incident giving them a 100 year jump start in tech before Star Fleet and when the Enterprise first meets the Klingons that is the state of things.
This does not mean that the modern UFP or KDF have the same defining technological parameters in the year 2409 as both societies continued thier technological growth since the early years of thier both being a space faring entities.
Nor does it dictate that one entity is all encopassing in technology over the other.
What I stated is based on established Star Trek canon only, not STO game details.
Military Dictatorships have inherent problems with information flow because that government system routinely restricts certain subjects to prevent its populace from organizing against the ruling government.
The Klingon Empire is not a military dictatorship in the sense that humans have had such in thier society. You assumption is wrong.
The Klingon Empire is a Free-House system tied to a Ruling-house system that is represented by the High Council and which is further controlled by the Chancellor position.
Each Klingon house is capable of thier own commerce, creating an maintaining thier fleets, Gaurds and Ground based Armies, contributing to the KDF fleets and activities and following the rule of the Council and Chancellor.
The Klingon peoples have adopted this rigid, psuedo-socialists system due to the Hurg attacks, the Klingons own more violent and warlike tendecies and the need for expansion into other star systems due to thier own resource weak home system.
After all, when was the last time you heard of any non-nuclear inovations coming out of North Korea?
like the Hyundai Motor Company ?
1) The Brel BoP in ST IV had a more primitive dilithium power system, and Scotty clearly mentions upgrading it to more modern Fed Standards, including replacing the food replicators
The first BoP was in service in 2153 and the events of ST:3 in 2285 are 132 years later. So chances are that particular BoP was 132 behind the current technology that Scottie had on the Enterprise.
I have a screwdriver that is technologically inferior to my electric version, does that make the hand held obsolete in function?
But I have more on this later........
2) The Feds created the Genesis Torpedo, the most powerful weapon ever made by either side. However, being a bunch of do-gooders, the UFP never brought this terrible weapon to bear on the KDF's populated worlds nor space fleets. I would not be surprised if Section32 has a few on hand just in case the Federation ever faces defeat.
Which is why the KDF wished to acquire it.
We KDF invented the ChronoDeflector and yet we do not run around erasing everyone else from time.
3) Klingon ships typically maxxed out at Warp 8 in STTNG. The Galaxy Class Enterprise was among the fastest non-transwarp ships at 9.98.
Star Fleet ships where origanilly slower than the KDF counterparts in the ENT era and TOS era.
I have more on this later.......
4) The Federation developed the phase cloak in "The Pegasus" S7E12 but could not use it due to the Treaty of Algeron. The Klingons obtained their cloaking technology from their short-lived alliance with the Romulans. Yes, they did make some improvements (e.g., improved battle cloak from ST VI), but without the Romulans, they would have never gotten that far.
And without the stolen cloaking technology from the KDF/Romulans/ whomever, the Federation would have never gotten there jump start into it iether.....
Other than we all owe a claoking debt to the Romulans, what is your point?
I too can pull examples of the greatness of almost any culture if I only wish to bask in thier greatness. It does not prove said greatness though.
Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
My angst when I wrote makes it sound snide. I apoligise for that. Though it is sound advice. Many Novels exist that cover the life and the average Klingon in the Empire and you may be surprised how the "warrior" is portrayed as being the end all be all, but it is just one part of a larger culture.
Unfortunately we never hear about the KDF's marvelous inovations because they have a feudal military council running their show, and as you've seen in the case of the House of Duras, competing factions within the KDF, hence the need for secrecy and restricted information flow.
yes and No. Secrecy from outsiders and rival houses -yes. Though technology and innovation do move through the Empire as any other society.
The KDF is not a communist society in how we saw such finction on Earth. As with the Utopian idea in ST works, the Socialist aspects of teh KDf work too.
Hell, look at China. Communists and functioning. Just different, not neccassirily better.
They also look upon their own scientist with contempt as a lower class (the warrior class gets all the "honors").
Warriors, Engineers, Scientists, Doctors is a good way to look at the hiearchy. Though we have Scientists just fine, otehrwise how would we learn the sciences needed to be a Space-faring race?
The Feds didn't blow up their moon and in fact possibly saved the Empire when they blew up theirs.
The KDF didn't almost destroy themselves in Third World War iether. All societies and races live on the razor edge of death. The KDF was no different concerning Praxis.
While it is true that the Empire is judged based on our own earthly and modern sensibilities its a fact that the Empire commits atrocities on a daily basis without giving it a second though. Kidnapping for torture and execution, and slavery are just some of the things we as players get to partake in the game itself.
Atrocities to those whom think them atrociuos.
The Klingon is an alien race with an Alien society and all those atrocities where committed on Earth by Humans just as much in thier history.
The Federation could decide to simply send cloaked Genesis torpedoes to some or all of the Empire's planets and put an end to them but chooses to stay its hand and NOT destroy the empire. That shows a certain amount of civility. Does anyone for a moment think the Empire would be as restrained? In the game we once again see this first hand. B'vat gets a Doomsday Device and everyone thinks its a FANTASTIC IDEA to go around wiping out planets. In fact the ONE Klingon to show a bit of restraint and common sense is labelled a traitor and shows what REAL Klingon honor should be about.
Thats where Scripting overtakes common sense.
Had the Klingons not been uplifted by an alien race would they have even made it off their planet? Would they have survived their atomic age, assuming they even got there before constant warfare would continually force their tech levels to reset?
According to science, had early Man not needed to look over the tall grass would we have ever learned to walk upright?
Kirk's infamous quote about barbarians and star empires is often repeated..... but it doesn't mean he was right. Klingons ARE barbarians for all practical purposes. They expand through conquest, have an honor code more about appearing honorable than actually being honorable, and think of everyone else as either just bellow them or with outright contempt for not being bloodthirsty warriors.
more to come on this subject.
So yeah, their society IS inferior in all ways.
Only compard to the self-appointed superiority of the society doing the critigueing.
Which is where I find the aformentioned posted statement laughible becuase its funny how the fans see the Humans as the top shelf species and all others not of importance as inferior and accept it so quickly as gospel when its the by-product of scripting and Human Nature only.
Comments
A +bonus to Electro-Plasma systems is a nice innate perk, especially since this buffs EPtX abilities.
I was surprised to find that many in my casual fleet never adjust power-allocation settings. I have my power presets mapped using F5 thru F8. The last setting is assigned to 100 base auxiliary power to speed up hull heals.
The situation would be:
Federation cruisers = +5 innate power all systems, +20 discretionary power, science console focus
versus
KDF cruisers = +10 innate power to weapons and engines, +30 to 40% turn rate, dual cannons, cloaking device, tactical console focus
Frankly I see the situation as being laughably one-sided in KDF's favor right now. They have significant advantages they don't really sacrifice anything to get. Giving federation cruiser +20 power to use as they see fit would largely even the playing field as far as I see.
The sad part is that the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to be technologically superior to the KDF. Fed warp engines are faster, ship-frames stronger, their weapons hit harder, etc... despite the fact that the bulk of Starfleet ships are not war-ships. The KDF may be thousands of years old, but since they rule by conquest, they do not have the same free-flow of information that a utopian democracy like the Federation enjoys. However, since the STO KDF have very little content compared to the STO Feds, giving them canon-accurate stats would have doomed the STO Faction PVP model, hence they are given better-than-canon stats to compensate.
Your statement is laughable.
Give the evidence that shows Star Fleets superiority on all levels.
Give the evidence that Klingon Empire social system is inferior in function the UFP.
Show me and all players this evidence that makes Kirks statement, " Barbarians do not rule star empires." about Klingon Empire untrue.
You are the poster child of the arrogant fed fan. Unwilling to accept that other races in ST have come just as far, if not farther, both as cultures and with technology.
KDF ships are better in STO because they are designed more for combat and STO is a combat focused game.
Crack open a book, in fact open four, broaden your mind to the culture of others past your narrow narcism of the federation.
R.I.P
You mean because the KDF value conquest and combat over the federations ideal of exploration and peaceful coexistance they designed the vessel to be combat first and foremost.
Cloaks they have had for almost as long as the humans have known of the KDF. It was not given to KDF vessels as a game compinsation.
The IP also demonstrates that the KDF uses a lot of cannons. Another thing that was not "given" us as compinsation.
The differences between Cruiser and Battle cruiser rests in thier names.
The Battle cruiser is a vessel for combat the Cruiser is a multipurpose vessel of exploration.
Thats why the Feds made the Escort class. To fill the void of not having a dedicated combat vessel.
R.I.P
They once considered Earth the center of the universe. The ignorant revel in folly.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Actually KDF sacrifices Hull, Shields, and Hardpoints for a Cloaking Device innate to the IP and one class of ships with all Universal Bridge Officer slots. Prior to the advent of Fleet Ships, The Federation received a Cloaking Device on more than one ship and Universal slots without taking a penalty to the previously mentioned ship hardware statistics. With the advent of Fleet Ships, many Federation vessels now have Universal slots without sacrificing anything while KDF vessels continue to suffer the penalties of such. Clearly the playing field you envision tilted is skewed in your favor.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Well:
1) Fed' races do frequently bathe
2) We have hot Vulcan and Andorian babes
3) Chuck Norris was a human, not a Klingon
4) Most importantly I am in Starfleet, I make the uniform look good
But seriously, Fed' cruisers do need a hair bit of a bump in game. Not as much as most people are arguing for but just a taste. Upping Beam Array and DBB damage a smidgen (maybe 5% would go a long way). Ships like the Bortas line could also take advantage of this bump as well.
I think I'll have to call you out on this one.
The Feds didn't blow up their moon and in fact possibly saved the Empire when they blew up theirs.
While it is true that the Empire is judged based on our own earthly and modern sensibilities its a fact that the Empire commits atrocities on a daily basis without giving it a second though. Kidnapping for torture and execution, and slavery are just some of the things we as players get to partake in the game itself.
The Federation could decide to simply send cloaked Genesis torpedoes to some or all of the Empire's planets and put an end to them but chooses to stay its hand and NOT destroy the empire. That shows a certain amount of civility. Does anyone for a moment think the Empire would be as restrained? In the game we once again see this first hand. B'vat gets a Doomsday Device and everyone thinks its a FANTASTIC IDEA to go around wiping out planets. In fact the ONE Klingon to show a bit of restraint and common sense is labelled a traitor and shows what REAL Klingon honor should be about.
Had the Klingons not been uplifted by an alien race would they have even made it off their planet? Would they have survived their atomic age, assuming they even got there before constant warfare would continually force their tech levels to reset?
Kirk's infamous quote about barbarians and star empires is often repeated..... but it doesn't mean he was right. Klingons ARE barbarians for all practical purposes. They expand through conquest, have an honor code more about appearing honorable than actually being honorable, and think of everyone else as either just bellow them or with outright contempt for not being bloodthirsty warriors.
So yeah, their society IS inferior in all ways.
Doesn't mean its not fun to play them though. After all, thanks to game balance they are equally as powerful as the Feds.
What I stated is based on established Star Trek canon only, not STO game details.
Military Dictatorships have inherent problems with information flow because that government system routinely restricts certain subjects to prevent its populace from organizing against the ruling government. This leash prevents the free flow exchange of ideas. Research data is often redacted as state secrets, classified, never published, etc... so scientists and researchers do not get to openly share ideas which lead to breakthroughs in seemingly unrelated topics of study.
After all, when was the last time you heard of any non-nuclear inovations coming out of North Korea?
On the Star Trek canon history:
1) The Brel BoP in ST IV had a more primitive dilithium power system, and Scotty clearly mentions upgrading it to more modern Fed Standards, including replacing the food replicators
2) The Feds created the Genesis Torpedo, the most powerful weapon ever made by either side. However, being a bunch of do-gooders, the UFP never brought this terrible weapon to bear on the KDF's populated worlds nor space fleets. I would not be surprised if Section31 has a few on hand just in case the Federation ever faces defeat.
3) Klingon ships typically maxxed out at Warp 8 in STTNG. The Galaxy Class Enterprise was among the fastest non-transwarp ships at 9.98.
4) The Federation developed the phase cloak in "The Pegasus" S7E12 but could not use it due to the Treaty of Algeron. The Klingons obtained their cloaking technology from their short-lived alliance with the Romulans. Yes, they did make some improvements (e.g., improved battle cloak from ST VI), but without the Romulans, they would have never gotten that far.
These are just some examples off the top of my head.
There's no need to be snide... this is just a game based on a utopian future that has almost no chance of happening (it takes the whole fuel supply of our Terran Sun to accelerate one atom to actual warp speeds).
Unfortunately we never hear about the KDF's marvelous inovations because they have a feudal military council running their show, and as you've seen in the case of the House of Duras, competing factions within the KDF, hence the need for secrecy and restricted information flow. They also look upon their own scientist with contempt as a lower class (the warrior class gets all the "honors"). The KDF is several thousands of years old, while the UFP is only a few centuries, yet look at how quickly the UFP jumped ahead of the Klingons in the technology race.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I do play an LG1 KDF Orion Sci... couldn't stay clear of their unique costumes!
The Klingons may have blown up 3/4 of a moon due to heavy industry but shall we take a look at the history of the founding member of the Federation? I do believe Q explores this rather well during the Farpoint mission. Perhaps the Eugenics Wars? World War III and the Post-atomic horror? That Earth authentic court Q held didn't appear all that civilized or honorable. Developing illegal cloaking devices which failed killing the crew? Had the Vulcans not been in the vicinity, for business other than the relative Earth primitives mind you, would the warp flight mattered at all as Earth continues to bicker amongst their post-atomic factions?
For all the utopia the Federation clamors to be one need only look as far as an away team. Stagnant thinking causes them all to take cover behind the same object in every firefight causing the entire team to be pinned down. Or look at the reason the ship full of women and children is gallivanting about at all. The society is so stagnant and bored with its own existence that it fills its flagship with civilians and tells it to just go anywhere but here, constantly placing innocent people in harm's way. Not exactly the mark of an enlightened society.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Its kinda interesting how you bring up some of the best of Rodenberry's Soapbox Shennannigans. But, as much as I love to point out how flawed Rodenberry's hand in TNG was it IS part of cannon. And yet, for all those bad points you bring up the Federation's founding member in question managed to move beyond it in a relatively short amount of time, how long have Klingons been throwing their weight around before the Federation or even Earth showed up in the scene? So long and so little change... talk about stagnant, hundreds of years of bullying others and so little to show for it. Tsk, tsk.
Thankfully Rodenberry left the Star Trek franchise early enough that the later series were not as heavy handed in pushing an impossible society. DS9 even goes so far as to explore the sacrifices needed to keep such an outwardly utopian society alive in an unfriendly and outright hostile galaxy.
Edit: Actually, I notice a lot of passionate players are more or less in denial of what the Klingon Empire really is. Why is that? Its pretty clear from the existing content and the Doff assignments currently available. How can anyone say they really like the KDF without accepting what they are? Its bizarre and reeks of denial. Unnecessary denial at that, the Klingon Empire are mostly a bunch of jerks and thugs masquerading as honorable warriors. There are some exceptions making a superb effort in moving beyond that but they're not there yet. Why is that a bad thing? My KDF alt happily goes around raiding and getting slaves for fun and profit and that's ok because that's what they DO.
Klingons are who Klingons are. We know what the Empire is as we are the Empire. We are comfortable with who we are making your discomfort inconsequential as you seek for force your beliefs on others. We conquest through might. You conquest through propaganda and subterfuge. This is clearly evident in the recent posts by you and your cohorts.
Now I believe we were discussing the fallacy that Cruisers are underpowered were we not?
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Both civilizations are impossible. The feds are so stupid good, they just deserve to die :-P
And the klingons are so stupid evil, you have to wonder how did they ever got into space? xD
I would say back to topic ...
I like my Attack Cruiser. I just wish it would turn better. Hopefully we get something like the breen cruiser with the look of an federation ship.
You ROLE-PLAY very well
But I agree... let's get back on topic...
PS: If STO ever starts a Dominion faction, I'm switching sides!
It's what I do.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
Try the Excelsior, you'll love the difference in handling.
Cruisers, science ships and escort should differ in their roles. The way of an escort is defined: pure battle ships diesigned to provide firepower and enough defense to deliver their payload.
Cruisers, as the Enterprise in the canon, can provide firepower, can absorb attacks, but their main role was always multi purpose.
Science ships, as the Voyager, were mainly meant for deep space exploration but providing them enough firepower to defend them self.
In my opinion, escorts, science ships and cruisers should have some additional slots, like weapons slots or consumable slots, where they can equiup science and engeenering facilities.
Of couse, science ships should have more science slot facilities than cruisers, while cruisers might have more engeenering facilities. Escorts may have none or only one slot.
There facilities should have MK ratings like weapons, shield and armor consoles. They would allow to trigger special ways of solving end game content.
E.g. a science ship with a science facillity equipped could supress spawing of repair nanites in STFs for some time. It could be able to undo parts of the tholian web in vault ensared and so on.
Similar, engeenering facilities on a cruiser could e.g. allow to reduce the player respawn timer in end game content, allow to suceed in the optional in protecing the kang even if the ships drops below the hull damage value, etc.
Additional optionals, or even complete missions, which are only solvable when you have science and engeenering facilties equiped could be added to pvp and pve.
It is just a matter of creativity.
Wasn't it said somewhere in canon that KDF impulse thruster technology was superior to that of the Feds because Klinkydinks had more direct martial experience or something?
In a very broad sense the UFP is gonna be more technologically advanced, sure, but I don't think it's as cut and dry in every area as you're painting it.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
It's actually very simple. The UFP is more advanced in warp drive and sensor technology, in addition to scientific labs and most engineering nitty gritty detail oriented things (like EPS conduit systems, and computer technology). Basically everything they'd need to explore and catalog things. They VASTLY out-do the KDF in those areas. They also have superior shield technology in the sense that their shields are designed to deal with more types of threats from the environment (i.e radiation, energy, that kind of thing).
However at sub-light speeds, KDF ships have the advantage. Their ships have more powerful impulse engines and thrusters, designed for maximum output over shorter periods of time. As weapon technology goes, the KDF use more archaic but still very effective weaponry. As hull goes, KDF ships have much better armor technology. This has always been the case. If a KDF battlecruiser rammed a fed cruiser, it's likely the KDF ship would just keep on going more or less intact, while the fed ship would probably be in multiple very large chunks.
The only faction that can match (and in some cases out-strip) the KDF in combat technology is the Dominion, and that's only because Dominion ships were designed exclusively for combat (I think Weiyun (yeah, I probably spelled that wrong) even said that the founders designed their ships to match what was flying them, purely combat ships for purely soldiers). The Breen just have one ship design that was really combat oriented, and that's the Chel'gret, but it's a VERY capable, maneuverable, and nasty ship (not just in STO, but in canon as well).
Yeah, I know... But I DISLIKE they ugly and ****y Excelsior design. Even worse than that TRIBBLE Connie. Yeah Tos era ships are not my favorite designs ;-)
It's up to you. You can drive a design that you like the look of and be less effective with your desired play style, or deal with a ship that you don't like the look of and be more effective.
I absolutely hate the look of the Garumba, but for what it can do, you can't beat it.
I finally found the dat that talks upon that and will post it later. Basically if one goes back to the beginings of both the Empire and Star Fleet and looks at the technologies the KDF is ahead in Impulse and Shield technology due to the Hurg incident giving them a 100 year jump start in tech before Star Fleet and when the Enterprise first meets the Klingons that is the state of things.
This does not mean that the modern UFP or KDF have the same defining technological parameters in the year 2409 as both societies continued thier technological growth since the early years of thier both being a space faring entities.
Nor does it dictate that one entity is all encopassing in technology over the other.
R.I.P
R.I.P
R.I.P
Although the discussion about KDF vs. Fed science seem to be intresting, maybe we could stay on topic.