All the other cruisers still suffer badly, Beam arrays still remains horrible weapons, nothign has changed about the validity of our complains.
If anything, cryptic is trolling even more by essentially saying: look, the excel and amabassador are dirt old ships, but we will have them outperform galaxys, sovereigns and star cruisers anyway.
I concur. Galaxy-class ships should outperform the Excelsiors and Ambassadors - after all, the Galaxy-class was designed to replace them.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
All the other cruisers still suffer badly, Beam arrays still remains horrible weapons, nothign has changed about the validity of our complains.
If anything, cryptic is trolling even more by essentially saying: look, the excel and ambassador are dirt old ships, but we will have them outperform Galaxys, sovereigns and star cruisers anyway.
Actually it has. The arrival of the Ambassador has changed the very core of the statement.
Now it is no longer "Compilation of why cruisers are UP", but "Compilation of why all cruisers except the Ambassador are UP".
The Ambassador has given players decent fire power and good survivability. Perhaps the DPS from beams are not on par with DHC yet, but with a good build they're not bad either.
I run beam sets on my Ambassador, Oddessy and Intrepid and beams are not bad at all.
The only thing which would be welcome is a somewhat lesser power drain.
As for the last statement about cryptic trolling that is incorrect as well. In fact it is the natural development of ships in games. Newly added ships will in general outperform older design ships.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Strangely it seem the new arrival (Ambassador) has made this topic largely obsolete.
Um... what? Reynold and I disagree regularly on here, but for once I do agree with him. But in different ways. The Ambassador is a horrible ship, but nobody can seem to see it. It's almost an exact clone of the freebie sovereign, only with 500 more hp and the LtCmdr stations swapped.
The Ambassador is only better than the Sovereign for Tactical and Science captains. However for Engineering Captains, the Sovereign is still better. Reason being: Tactical and Science captains do not have access to EPtX3 abilities, and as such have less use for a LtCmdr Engineering slot than Engineering captains. Also a completely unnecessary and useless add-on: the Ambassador is fugly.
However, despite this ship's strengths (which I will admit it has a few), it's still horribly weak. If anything, it's just another demonstration of why cruisers are supposedly underpowered. Despite it's BOff change-up, it still can't even come close to other cruisers in damage output! (referencing the Tac Oddy, Regent (plus fleet variant) and... *throws up quietly in corner* the fleet excel)
So please, don't try to tell me this gimmick wannabe ship puts this thread to rest. It doesn't. In any way, shape, or form.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Um... what? The Ambassador is a horrible ship, but nobody can seem to see it. It's almost an exact clone of the freebie sovereign, only with 500 more hp and the LtCmdr stations swapped.
The Ambassador is only better than the Sovereign for Tactical and Science captains. However for Engineering Captains, the Sovereign is still better. Reason being: Tactical and Science captains do not have access to EPtX3 abilities, and as such have less use for a LtCmdr Engineering slot than Engineering captains.
Despite it's BOff change-up, it still can't even come close to other cruisers in damage output! (referencing the Tac Oddy, Regent (plus fleet variant) and... *throws up quietly in corner* the fleet excel)
So please, don't try to tell me this gimmick wannabe ship puts this thread to rest. It doesn't. In any way, shape, or form.
I totally agree. I was one of the biggest advocates of the Ambassador, but I fail to see why so many players are doing back flips over this ship. Is is NOT a good ship.
Now, Capt. Gecko "got his way" yet again. Think about it. The Galaxy bows to the Ambassador, yet the Ambassador bows to the Excelsior. Excelsior IS KING and it will ALWAYS BE KING, as long as Gecko has his way. I see absolutely no reason to believe the Fleet Ambassador will be on-par with the Fleet Excelsior. Call me pessimistic, but again, I don't see things changing.
I totally agree. I was one of the biggest advocates of the Ambassador, but I fail to see why so many players are doing back flips over this ship. Is is NOT a good ship.
Now, Capt. Gecko "got his way" yet again. Think about it. The Galaxy bows to the Ambassador, yet the Ambassador bows to the Excelsior. Excelsior IS KING and it will ALWAYS BE KING, as long as Gecko has his way. I see absolutely no reason to believe the Fleet Ambassador will be on-par with the Fleet Excelsior. Call me pessimistic, but again, I don't see things changing.
Fleet Excel is powerful, but it's not top dog in any given category. It can be out-tanked (Fleet Gal-R, Odyssey Ops Cruiser, etc), it can be out-damaged (Regent/Fleet Imperial, Odyssey Tactical Cruiser), and it can be out-sustained/out-healed (Odyssey Science Cruiser).
The negative: you have no ship that can surpass it on all 3 at the same time. It will always do better in at least one of the categories than any of the other cruiser class ships (usually damage output, despite it being horribly weak in science). It also is the most maneuverable fed tier 5 cruiser there is. Which I call BS on, but whatever... Which makes it the king of being great at everything, but not being amazing in anything.
And after giving the Fleet excel all this power, you know how they rationalized it? "It costs one more Fleet Ship Module than any other fleet ship." ... Seriously? Just... SERIOUSLY??? Here's the catch: If you have the VA version for 2500 zen, it still only costs 1. Argument NULL. -.-
You know what I just realized? The Fleet Excel and the Excel-R are both perfect Kirking ships. Their BOff layout and console layout are conducive to keeping yourself (and ONLY yourself) alive and doing damage. They have little to no room for support and team abilities. So if anything, those ships are promoting horrible cruiser captains who don't support their team-mates and heal them etc.
Add on to all that, it's a fugly ship design (IMO ONLY)...
*breathes deeply*
Ok, rant over. But in all honesty, I am still not entirely sure why the Excel was given all this power. It's an old ship design, and even though it can be retrofitted with newer tech, why? There are other designs that are better. That ship is supposed to really only be a test platform for newer cruiser tech. Not a a cruiser with the power level that it has.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
You know what I just realized? The Fleet Excel and the Excel-R are both perfect Kirking ships. Their BOff layout and console layout are conducive to keeping yourself (and ONLY yourself) alive and doing damage. They have little to no room for support and team abilities. So if anything, those ships are promoting horrible cruiser captains who don't support their team-mates and heal them etc.
*Goes out to prove the Excelsior (Like the Sovi) can be a healboat*
Feel free to meet me in game if you need proof that it can be done
I usually need to slow down in a cruiser so I can make tighter turns and have more time on target. Stopping is probably a bad idea, but so is running full speed.
Its true of many ships, not just cruisers. Sudden decrease in throttle-hard turn-sudden increase in throttle makes a peghQu from a neghvar trn better.
Some have even made keybinds for the hard brake-pivot-acellerate manuever ease of use.
Its a good skill I need to pratice more.
I can't help noticing that a lot of people seem to be using "Kirk" as a pejorative adjective. Looking back through the history of the forum, apparently a "Kirk build" is a ship that flies more or less solo i.e. it tries to be some of everything. And my question here is... why is that bad?
No really.
See, there seems to be a school of thought where teamwork is absolutely essential. And I don't see it. Basically, some ships survive just great on their own. The tactical in the unhittable Defiant doesn't need my help, his damage mitigation strategy keeps him far safer than one might expect in the 5 seconds that his target is alive to return fire. The science captain lurking in his carrier doesn't need my help, his target is stuck in an endless tractor beam or swamp of gravity wells while fighters gnaw it to pieces. And the engineer flying the KDF battlecruiser doesn't need my help, because he can go toe to toe with anything in the game and beat it into submission.
Some ships do just fine as "kirks", surviving and dishing out damage to the full extent required by their position in the team. To me, the response isn't to say "Trying to fight solo is a terrible thing and you need to stop doing that", the response is "These ships can fight solo just fine, so what's wrong with everybody else?" Yes, I'm sure there are captains who want to build their ship for damage output and more damage output and nothing else, and then rely on somebody else to absorb all the fire that they have thrown away their capacity to survive. But why do I have to care about what other people expect me to do for them and shape my strategy around it? From where springs this idea that "DPS plus tank" is good while having players who can look out for themselves most of the time is despicable? It seems to me that fault tolerance and reliability i.e. every player can shoot, tank and heal interchangeably as the situation demands, are a more worthy pursuit that crippling levels of specialization?
Things to ponder.
Oh, and I recently bought a fleet Excelsior. No it's not the ideal cruiser. Three engineering ensign slots is a terrible thing to inflict on any ship. Plus the turn rate, while better than other Fed cruisers, still hasn't matched the slower KDF battlecruiser, the Negh'var. And it can't use the plasmonic leech. Improved transwarp is nice for doffing. And I happen to really like the looks of the Excelsior.
Oh, and I recently bought a fleet Excelsior. No it's not the ideal cruiser. Three engineering ensign slots is a terrible thing to inflict on any ship. Plus the turn rate, while better than other Fed cruisers, still hasn't matched the slower KDF battlecruiser, the Negh'var. And it can't use the plasmonic leech. Improved transwarp is nice for doffing. And I happen to really like the looks of the Excelsior.
So, nice ship, but not ideal.
Actually it is quite ideal, my fleet excel after a recent build modification now works a treat, does everything and looks good doing it I even made good use of the ensign engineer slot (See below)
With 1 keybind for EPtW&S and other to add TT and Aux2SIF to that it can DPS and tank or heal or all 3 at the same time (win, win, win absolute "Kirk ship"
Getting nice damage out of the Romulan Hyper-plasma torp, so abilities focused on survival and healing. Yes, for other people if they need it. I don't mind throwing heals at other people, I just refuse to be forced into doing nothing else.
I know it's a suboptimal build. It usually takes me a week or so to figure out new ships.
Doffs: 3x DCE (Purple)
Never really used those... I have trouble accepting "Chance to be awesome" given the corresponding "Chance to do nothing". I've got 3 projectile officers, a maintenance engineer, and an astrometrics guy to make better use of that swell transwarp engine.
Never really used those... I have trouble accepting "Chance to be awesome" given the corresponding "Chance to do nothing". I've got 3 projectile officers, a maintenance engineer, and an astrometrics guy to make better use of that swell transwarp engine.
Actually my "chance to be awesome" seems to be 100%, since I got the three of them at purple level they have never failed to proc, the only chance to be awesome and chance to do nothing (which only matters if it is awesome) is the warp core doff, if he procs and I use EPS Power transfer thats 100+ power to all systems which equates to complete awesomeness for I think 15 seconds
Going back to the boff layout considering the fact of having evasives (which works as well as EPtE anyway) you may as well drop that and put ET1 in its place as you aren't playing a dedicated healboat ET3 is excessive and EPtA if you run 50 aux power is not needed. I'm guessing from your prioritisation of AP:D that you have points in threat control? I still recommend using a direct weapon buff, FAW2 and AP:B2 for example rips through bops in CSE, combining that with EWP I can solo Kang duty completely in my eng/Excel meaning more DPS for them shipyards
On a side note this discussion is not aiding the "cruisers are UP" argument of this thread, if you have further questions feel free to give me a shout @adamkafei
Comments
I concur. Galaxy-class ships should outperform the Excelsiors and Ambassadors - after all, the Galaxy-class was designed to replace them.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Actually it has. The arrival of the Ambassador has changed the very core of the statement.
Now it is no longer "Compilation of why cruisers are UP", but "Compilation of why all cruisers except the Ambassador are UP".
The Ambassador has given players decent fire power and good survivability. Perhaps the DPS from beams are not on par with DHC yet, but with a good build they're not bad either.
I run beam sets on my Ambassador, Oddessy and Intrepid and beams are not bad at all.
The only thing which would be welcome is a somewhat lesser power drain.
As for the last statement about cryptic trolling that is incorrect as well. In fact it is the natural development of ships in games. Newly added ships will in general outperform older design ships.
Um... what? Reynold and I disagree regularly on here, but for once I do agree with him. But in different ways. The Ambassador is a horrible ship, but nobody can seem to see it. It's almost an exact clone of the freebie sovereign, only with 500 more hp and the LtCmdr stations swapped.
The Ambassador is only better than the Sovereign for Tactical and Science captains. However for Engineering Captains, the Sovereign is still better. Reason being: Tactical and Science captains do not have access to EPtX3 abilities, and as such have less use for a LtCmdr Engineering slot than Engineering captains. Also a completely unnecessary and useless add-on: the Ambassador is fugly.
However, despite this ship's strengths (which I will admit it has a few), it's still horribly weak. If anything, it's just another demonstration of why cruisers are supposedly underpowered. Despite it's BOff change-up, it still can't even come close to other cruisers in damage output! (referencing the Tac Oddy, Regent (plus fleet variant) and... *throws up quietly in corner* the fleet excel)
So please, don't try to tell me this gimmick wannabe ship puts this thread to rest. It doesn't. In any way, shape, or form.
I totally agree. I was one of the biggest advocates of the Ambassador, but I fail to see why so many players are doing back flips over this ship. Is is NOT a good ship.
Now, Capt. Gecko "got his way" yet again. Think about it. The Galaxy bows to the Ambassador, yet the Ambassador bows to the Excelsior. Excelsior IS KING and it will ALWAYS BE KING, as long as Gecko has his way. I see absolutely no reason to believe the Fleet Ambassador will be on-par with the Fleet Excelsior. Call me pessimistic, but again, I don't see things changing.
Fleet Excel is powerful, but it's not top dog in any given category. It can be out-tanked (Fleet Gal-R, Odyssey Ops Cruiser, etc), it can be out-damaged (Regent/Fleet Imperial, Odyssey Tactical Cruiser), and it can be out-sustained/out-healed (Odyssey Science Cruiser).
The negative: you have no ship that can surpass it on all 3 at the same time. It will always do better in at least one of the categories than any of the other cruiser class ships (usually damage output, despite it being horribly weak in science). It also is the most maneuverable fed tier 5 cruiser there is. Which I call BS on, but whatever... Which makes it the king of being great at everything, but not being amazing in anything.
And after giving the Fleet excel all this power, you know how they rationalized it? "It costs one more Fleet Ship Module than any other fleet ship." ... Seriously? Just... SERIOUSLY??? Here's the catch: If you have the VA version for 2500 zen, it still only costs 1. Argument NULL. -.-
You know what I just realized? The Fleet Excel and the Excel-R are both perfect Kirking ships. Their BOff layout and console layout are conducive to keeping yourself (and ONLY yourself) alive and doing damage. They have little to no room for support and team abilities. So if anything, those ships are promoting horrible cruiser captains who don't support their team-mates and heal them etc.
Add on to all that, it's a fugly ship design (IMO ONLY)...
*breathes deeply*
Ok, rant over. But in all honesty, I am still not entirely sure why the Excel was given all this power. It's an old ship design, and even though it can be retrofitted with newer tech, why? There are other designs that are better. That ship is supposed to really only be a test platform for newer cruiser tech. Not a a cruiser with the power level that it has.
*Goes out to prove the Excelsior (Like the Sovi) can be a healboat*
Feel free to meet me in game if you need proof that it can be done
Actually I haven't had much trouble Kirking in my new Ambassador.
Its true of many ships, not just cruisers. Sudden decrease in throttle-hard turn-sudden increase in throttle makes a peghQu from a neghvar trn better.
Some have even made keybinds for the hard brake-pivot-acellerate manuever ease of use.
Its a good skill I need to pratice more.
R.I.P
No really.
See, there seems to be a school of thought where teamwork is absolutely essential. And I don't see it. Basically, some ships survive just great on their own. The tactical in the unhittable Defiant doesn't need my help, his damage mitigation strategy keeps him far safer than one might expect in the 5 seconds that his target is alive to return fire. The science captain lurking in his carrier doesn't need my help, his target is stuck in an endless tractor beam or swamp of gravity wells while fighters gnaw it to pieces. And the engineer flying the KDF battlecruiser doesn't need my help, because he can go toe to toe with anything in the game and beat it into submission.
Some ships do just fine as "kirks", surviving and dishing out damage to the full extent required by their position in the team. To me, the response isn't to say "Trying to fight solo is a terrible thing and you need to stop doing that", the response is "These ships can fight solo just fine, so what's wrong with everybody else?" Yes, I'm sure there are captains who want to build their ship for damage output and more damage output and nothing else, and then rely on somebody else to absorb all the fire that they have thrown away their capacity to survive. But why do I have to care about what other people expect me to do for them and shape my strategy around it? From where springs this idea that "DPS plus tank" is good while having players who can look out for themselves most of the time is despicable? It seems to me that fault tolerance and reliability i.e. every player can shoot, tank and heal interchangeably as the situation demands, are a more worthy pursuit that crippling levels of specialization?
Things to ponder.
Oh, and I recently bought a fleet Excelsior. No it's not the ideal cruiser. Three engineering ensign slots is a terrible thing to inflict on any ship. Plus the turn rate, while better than other Fed cruisers, still hasn't matched the slower KDF battlecruiser, the Negh'var. And it can't use the plasmonic leech. Improved transwarp is nice for doffing. And I happen to really like the looks of the Excelsior.
So, nice ship, but not ideal.
Actually it is quite ideal, my fleet excel after a recent build modification now works a treat, does everything and looks good doing it
LTC Tac: TT1, FAW2, AP:B2
CMDR Eng: EPtW1, RSP1, Aux2SIF2, EWP3
Lt Eng: EPtS1, ES1
Ens Eng: ET1
Lt Sci: HE1, TSS2
Doffs: 3x DCE (Purple), WCE (Purple), Free slot
Power presets:
100/25/25/50
With 1 keybind for EPtW&S and other to add TT and Aux2SIF to that it can DPS and tank or heal or all 3 at the same time (win, win, win absolute "Kirk ship"
I'm doing a weird franken-ship thing right now. At the moment I've got
TacTeam1, APB1, APD2
EPTA1, EPTS2, ETeam3, Aux2SIF3
EPTW1, EPTS2
EPTE1
HE1, TSS2
Getting nice damage out of the Romulan Hyper-plasma torp, so abilities focused on survival and healing. Yes, for other people if they need it. I don't mind throwing heals at other people, I just refuse to be forced into doing nothing else.
I know it's a suboptimal build. It usually takes me a week or so to figure out new ships.
Never really used those... I have trouble accepting "Chance to be awesome" given the corresponding "Chance to do nothing". I've got 3 projectile officers, a maintenance engineer, and an astrometrics guy to make better use of that swell transwarp engine.
Actually my "chance to be awesome" seems to be 100%, since I got the three of them at purple level they have never failed to proc, the only chance to be awesome and chance to do nothing (which only matters if it is awesome) is the warp core doff, if he procs and I use EPS Power transfer thats 100+ power to all systems which equates to complete awesomeness for I think 15 seconds
Going back to the boff layout considering the fact of having evasives (which works as well as EPtE anyway) you may as well drop that and put ET1 in its place as you aren't playing a dedicated healboat ET3 is excessive and EPtA if you run 50 aux power is not needed. I'm guessing from your prioritisation of AP:D that you have points in threat control? I still recommend using a direct weapon buff, FAW2 and AP:B2 for example rips through bops in CSE, combining that with EWP I can solo Kang duty completely in my eng/Excel meaning more DPS for them shipyards
On a side note this discussion is not aiding the "cruisers are UP" argument of this thread, if you have further questions feel free to give me a shout @adamkafei