If you want your cruiser to dps then you're doing it wrong.
More accurately:
If you want your cruiser to DPS and still be an awesome tank, you're expecting too much. If you want your cruiser to tank like a boss (what it was designed to do) and still hit like a freight train, you're expecting too much.
However if your cruiser can't do either one successfully, they you are indeed doing it wrong.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
There was no correction necessary. I have been flying cruisers for as long as I have been playing. I have dabbled in escorts and raptors, but in the end I always go back to my space whale. And it can put out some pretty serious damage, at the cost of a lot of tankiness I'll grant you, but cruisers if set up right can still do some respectable DPS.
You will note in my original statement, I stated that if you wanted to DPS, but I did not state the level of DPS. Of course I know that cruisers will never come close to escort DPS, but tbh they aren't that far behind. Your average escort running full mk XI blue consoles with mk XII weapons will usually sustain 5.5k DPS with spikes up to 12-18k. Your average cruiser doing the same thing will sustain 3.7k DPS with spikes up to 8k DPS. Total DPS is not that far behind.
Your "correction" would have been accurate if I had stated that if you want STRONG dps from your cruiser. As is, I just stated DPS.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
but cruisers if set up right can still do some respectable DPS.
I second this after my recent tweaks to my Excelsior build, I do need to run a DPS meter on it but it puts out a good 7-10k per volley with 2 23k volleys in a minute happening every three minutes. on top of this it still tanks very well indeed, Heretick has seen it happen multiple times, so if you get the right cruiser with the right build you can DPS fairly well AND tank while you do so.
I second this after my recent tweaks to my Excelsior build, I do need to run a DPS meter on it but it puts out a good 7-10k per volley with 2 23k volleys in a minute happening every three minutes. on top of this it still tanks very well indeed, Heretick has seen it happen multiple times, so if you get the right cruiser with the right build you can DPS fairly well AND tank while you do so.
Any chance you could let me take a look at that build? I am curious to see how close my build is to it.
I think the main reason that cruisers get such a bad rap as combat ships is because of the sheer ludicrous number of Cruiser FAILboats that populate the Federation ranks in STO. I actually have lost count of the number of times I was ashamed to fly a Cruiser simply due to the ridiculous level of fail I witnessed from these magnificent ships.
Examples:
Skittle-Turret Odyssey Operations Cruiser. I ran into this same boat at least a dozen times in a number of STFs and fleet actions over the course of a two week period.
Rainbow DBB/Skittle Turret Regent. I ran into this boat 4 times in the same day. Never saw it again. For that matter, never saw that player again.
Full Phaser MUAC running 6/2 setup with quantums. A viable and legit setup. But only doing 350 damage per shot. *facepalm
I could go on and on, hell I could probably start a new thread of fail cruiser builds we have run across, but that's not the point I am trying to make. Cruisers get the sense and feel of being weak as hell, because the majority of the players using them are weak players. They don't seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their ships, or overcompensate for them (turret oddy). Or don't trust their ship to survive enough to let her loose (MUAC with all power to shields, I swear, since his shields never went down when he got attacked), or just fail completely (DBB turret regent... ugh).
As a result of the majority of cruiser pilots being like that (majority, not all mind you), cruisers tend to get a really really bad name. I mean you have players that can do things with a tactical odyssey that will leave your mouth hanging, and others that will leave you feeling sick (if you're a cruiser pilot), or laughing (escort pilot).
TL;DR
Cruisers themselves are great ships, they can actually do a lot of damage and stay alive in the process, and in some cases be excellent healers. It's just that fail pilots that can't use them to their full potential are the majority of what you see in cruisers and as a result, give the rest of us that are actually competent a bad name.
Note:
There have been times where I have actually been given TRIBBLE (usually by an overzealous escort pilot, or tac cruiser captain in his purty little Regent/Excelsior) for showing up in an ESTF in an Odyssey until they realize I can maintain a quite high DPS, high enough that I don't hold the team back. And I can usually keep the team alive pretty well with healing ability. You won't find that ability anywhere else. A ship that can deal some decent damage while still being able to heal his team-mates back to full from the brink of death (ok, some sci ships can do that, but that's not the point here).
I once asked one of these guys why he was getting on my case for my ship choice, and he said: "You're an Oddy. Those ships are giant flying wastes of space. They can't hurt anything, and are useless. Get out of that piece of wasted money as soon as you can."
I asked him why he said that, and he responded (after some profanity at me for being another stupid engi): "I have never seen a successful Oddy. They always die, they always can't dps, and they always fail as healers. It's just a fail ship. Stop bothering me."
Sufficed to say, it took most of the STF and me saving his rear twice from instant death for him to finally relent and say that "Ok, not all of you space whales are bad. But trust me, you're better off in an escort, that ship sucks." Then Donatra hit the whole team with one of her triple torp spreads, and mine was the only survivor. He shut up after that. At the end of the STF (after I had held aggro on donatra for the rest of her health bar) he grudgingly admitted that maybe it wasn't such a terrible ship. A victory, albeit a small one.
Forgive the long post, my thoughts just kept on coming XD...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I think the main reason that cruisers get such a bad rap as combat ships is because of the sheer ludicrous number of Cruiser FAILboats that populate the Federation ranks in STO. I actually have lost count of the number of times I was ashamed to fly a Cruiser simply due to the ridiculous level of fail I witnessed from these magnificent ships.
Examples:
Skittle-Turret Odyssey Operations Cruiser. I ran into this same boat at least a dozen times in a number of STFs and fleet actions over the course of a two week period.
Rainbow DBB/Skittle Turret Regent. I ran into this boat 4 times in the same day. Never saw it again. For that matter, never saw that player again.
Full Phaser MUAC running 6/2 setup with quantums. A viable and legit setup. But only doing 350 damage per shot. *facepalm
I could go on and on, hell I could probably start a new thread of fail cruiser builds we have run across, but that's not the point I am trying to make. Cruisers get the sense and feel of being weak as hell, because the majority of the players using them are weak players. They don't seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their ships, or overcompensate for them (turret oddy). Or don't trust their ship to survive enough to let her loose (MUAC with all power to shields, I swear, since his shields never went down when he got attacked), or just fail completely (DBB turret regent... ugh).
As a result of the majority of cruiser pilots being like that (majority, not all mind you), cruisers tend to get a really really bad name. I mean you have players that can do things with a tactical odyssey that will leave your mouth hanging, and others that will leave you feeling sick (if you're a cruiser pilot), or laughing (escort pilot).
TL;DR
Cruisers themselves are great ships, they can actually do a lot of damage and stay alive in the process, and in some cases be excellent healers. It's just that fail pilots that can't use them to their full potential are the majority of what you see in cruisers and as a result, give the rest of us that are actually competent a bad name.
Note:
There have been times where I have actually been given TRIBBLE (usually by an overzealous escort pilot, or tac cruiser captain in his purty little Regent/Excelsior) for showing up in an ESTF in an Odyssey until they realize I can maintain a quite high DPS, high enough that I don't hold the team back. And I can usually keep the team alive pretty well with healing ability. You won't find that ability anywhere else. A ship that can deal some decent damage while still being able to heal his team-mates back to full from the brink of death (ok, some sci ships can do that, but that's not the point here).
I once asked one of these guys why he was getting on my case for my ship choice, and he said: "You're an Oddy. Those ships are giant flying wastes of space. They can't hurt anything, and are useless. Get out of that piece of wasted money as soon as you can."
I asked him why he said that, and he responded (after some profanity at me for being another stupid engi): "I have never seen a successful Oddy. They always die, they always can't dps, and they always fail as healers. It's just a fail ship. Stop bothering me."
Sufficed to say, it took most of the STF and me saving his rear twice from instant death for him to finally relent and say that "Ok, not all of you space whales are bad. But trust me, you're better off in an escort, that ship sucks." Then Donatra hit the whole team with one of her triple torp spreads, and mine was the only survivor. He shut up after that. At the end of the STF (after I had held aggro on donatra for the rest of her health bar) he grudgingly admitted that maybe it wasn't such a terrible ship. A victory, albeit a small one.
Forgive the long post, my thoughts just kept on coming XD...
After reading through all the replies to this thread, this post tells exactly how it is. You can have the best ship, gear, boffs, doffs, etc all you want but if you don't understand how it all works together and can fine tune the available possibilities of the synergies then you might aswell be flying a miranda.
Simply put if a player is not willing to learn then move on, if you find a player willing to learn then help them improve their setups for thier playstyles (which in turn they might help the next player they see; similar thing myself and a few friends did first time the current STF's came out to improve the over all success rate back in the day when pugging.).
I myself as a tac; fly a tactical oddy and the command bortasq'ue; both haveing a min/maxed build where possible based on my experience.. I still fine tune my build if I see a way to boost my (keyword being here) Sustained dps and HOT's as needed, but generally I can hold my own and push out a decent amount of dps to hold aggro with a few escorts shooting the same target even without threat control.
I think the main reason that cruisers get such a bad rap as combat ships is because of the sheer ludicrous number of Cruiser FAILboats that populate the Federation ranks in STO. I actually have lost count of the number of times I was ashamed to fly a Cruiser simply due to the ridiculous level of fail I witnessed from these magnificent ships.
Examples:
Skittle-Turret Odyssey Operations Cruiser. I ran into this same boat at least a dozen times in a number of STFs and fleet actions over the course of a two week period.
Rainbow DBB/Skittle Turret Regent. I ran into this boat 4 times in the same day. Never saw it again. For that matter, never saw that player again.
Full Phaser MUAC running 6/2 setup with quantums. A viable and legit setup. But only doing 350 damage per shot. *facepalm
I could go on and on, hell I could probably start a new thread of fail cruiser builds we have run across, but that's not the point I am trying to make. Cruisers get the sense and feel of being weak as hell, because the majority of the players using them are weak players. They don't seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their ships, or overcompensate for them (turret oddy). Or don't trust their ship to survive enough to let her loose (MUAC with all power to shields, I swear, since his shields never went down when he got attacked), or just fail completely (DBB turret regent... ugh).
As a result of the majority of cruiser pilots being like that (majority, not all mind you), cruisers tend to get a really really bad name. I mean you have players that can do things with a tactical odyssey that will leave your mouth hanging, and others that will leave you feeling sick (if you're a cruiser pilot), or laughing (escort pilot).
TL;DR
Cruisers themselves are great ships, they can actually do a lot of damage and stay alive in the process, and in some cases be excellent healers. It's just that fail pilots that can't use them to their full potential are the majority of what you see in cruisers and as a result, give the rest of us that are actually competent a bad name.
Note:
There have been times where I have actually been given TRIBBLE (usually by an overzealous escort pilot, or tac cruiser captain in his purty little Regent/Excelsior) for showing up in an ESTF in an Odyssey until they realize I can maintain a quite high DPS, high enough that I don't hold the team back. And I can usually keep the team alive pretty well with healing ability. You won't find that ability anywhere else. A ship that can deal some decent damage while still being able to heal his team-mates back to full from the brink of death (ok, some sci ships can do that, but that's not the point here).
I once asked one of these guys why he was getting on my case for my ship choice, and he said: "You're an Oddy. Those ships are giant flying wastes of space. They can't hurt anything, and are useless. Get out of that piece of wasted money as soon as you can."
I asked him why he said that, and he responded (after some profanity at me for being another stupid engi): "I have never seen a successful Oddy. They always die, they always can't dps, and they always fail as healers. It's just a fail ship. Stop bothering me."
Sufficed to say, it took most of the STF and me saving his rear twice from instant death for him to finally relent and say that "Ok, not all of you space whales are bad. But trust me, you're better off in an escort, that ship sucks." Then Donatra hit the whole team with one of her triple torp spreads, and mine was the only survivor. He shut up after that. At the end of the STF (after I had held aggro on donatra for the rest of her health bar) he grudgingly admitted that maybe it wasn't such a terrible ship. A victory, albeit a small one.
Forgive the long post, my thoughts just kept on coming XD...
After reading through all the replies to this thread, this post tells exactly how it is. You can have the best ship, gear, boffs, doffs, etc all you want but if you don't understand how it all works together and can fine tune the available possibilities of the synergies then you might aswell be flying a miranda.
Simply put if a player is not willing to learn then move on, if you find a player willing to learn then help them improve their setups for thier playstyles (which in turn they might help the next player they see; similar thing myself and a few friends did first time the current STF's came out to improve the over all success rate back in the day when pugging.).
I myself as a tac; fly a tactical oddy and the command bortasq'ue; both haveing a min/maxed build where possible based on my experience.. I still fine tune my build if I see a way to boost my (keyword being here) Sustained dps and HOT's as needed, but generally I can hold my own and push out a decent amount of dps to hold aggro with a few escorts shooting the same target even without threat control.
All of this is true. If you do not know how to use the tools you have they will not work properly for you in thier application. Unfortunately the ones who need to learn this often ignore it and claim its not thier fault but the Cruiser itself or thier Class choice in flying one.
Even after being shown that the bulk of the Tactical Captain abilities are Team-based, the OP refused to give up the crusade to change the Classes to suit his ideals.
I do not understand this mentality. Rather than fix the game to benefit all, some wish to fix it to benefit just themselves....
This mentality more than anything is what keeps, me at least, from playing STO. How am I, or others like myself, suppossed to enjoy a game that may be changed at the whim of a few fans? How can we enjoy PvP knowing that the other guy will only complain they where "cheated" by the game itself becuase my class is better at what they are designed to do over a class that is not?
Frankly, I'm surprised at the ego-centric attitudes of some Star Trek fans on this subject.
All of this is true. If you do not know how to use the tools you have they will not work properly for you in thier application. Unfortunately the ones who need to learn this often ignore it and claim its not thier fault but the Cruiser itself or thier Class choice in flying one.
Even after being shown that the bulk of the Tactical Captain abilities are Team-based, the OP refused to give up the crusade to change the Classes to suit his ideals.
I do not understand this mentality. Rather than fix the game to benefit all, some wish to fix it to benefit just themselves....
This mentality more than anything is what keeps, me at least, from playing STO. How am I, or others like myself, suppossed to enjoy a game that may be changed at the whim of a few fans? How can we enjoy PvP knowing that the other guy will only complain they where "cheated" by the game itself becuase my class is better at what they are designed to do over a class that is not?
Frankly, I'm surprised at the ego-centric attitudes of some Star Trek fans on this subject.
Esp when it comes to ability nerfs..people need to learn to adapt to change aswell as understand not all nerfs are done to invalidate an item or power for the sake of balance, it's the idea or rotational change and its done to keep the gameplay from stagnating too much if a build or two become over used to the point of everything the content teams make become walk in the parks, then they make the adjustments..hell even with my build im at least able to get 1st place in the space FA's most of the time on Fed and 2nd on KDF (trying for first for the trophy on the occasion but too many bops at times)
To be frank I fly a cruiser in sto because I like to have a challenge, same thing when choosing classes and build in gen in other games I play, things get boring when you can kill everything in less than a sec; Keeping things challenging keeps you alert aswell as helps you improve over time instead of loosing interest and getting worse overtime.
All of this is true. If you do not know how to use the tools you have they will not work properly for you in thier application. Unfortunately the ones who need to learn this often ignore it and claim its not thier fault but the Cruiser itself or thier Class choice in flying one.
Even after being shown that the bulk of the Tactical Captain abilities are Team-based, the OP refused to give up the crusade to change the Classes to suit his ideals.
I do not understand this mentality. Rather than fix the game to benefit all, some wish to fix it to benefit just themselves....
This mentality more than anything is what keeps, me at least, from playing STO. How am I, or others like myself, suppossed to enjoy a game that may be changed at the whim of a few fans? How can we enjoy PvP knowing that the other guy will only complain they where "cheated" by the game itself becuase my class is better at what they are designed to do over a class that is not?
Frankly, I'm surprised at the ego-centric attitudes of some Star Trek fans on this subject.
Heh... I went and looked at this thread, and looked at OP, and I knew exactly why you brought him into this convo. And I agree... this guy... just... well there are dozens of threads saying exactly what needs to be said about him (especially his most recent creation about federation flight deck cruisers...) so I don't think I need to add on to that.
Esp when it comes to ability nerfs..people need to learn to adapt to change aswell as understand not all nerfs are done to invalidate an item or power for the sake of balance, it's the idea or rotational change and its done to keep the gameplay from stagnating too much if a build or two become over used to the point of everything the content teams make become walk in the parks..hell even with my build im at least able to get 1st place in the space FA's most of the time on Fed and 2nd on KDF (trying for first for the trophy on the occasion but too many bops at times)
To be frank I fly a cruiser in sto because I like to have a challenge, same thing when choosing classes and build in gen in other games I play, things get boring when you can kill everything in less than a sec; Keeping things challenging keeps you alert aswell as helps you improve over time instead of loosing interest and getting worse overtime.
I fly a cruiser in STO because it feels appropriate. An Engineer in a Cruiser. It just feels right to me. I've flown escorts in my Engineer, and it just feels wrong for some reason. Little space zippy thingy or space whale/tank. I'll take the whale thanks much. Besides, in every game I play, I play tank. It's what I am good at. Granted I still think that Federation ships in general are horribly designed functionality wise, and not that much better as aesthetics go, but that's another story/topic for another time.
The only thing is, Cruisers are hard to deal good damage with. Not impossible mind you, but not the easiest thing in the world. Most players get it wrong their first time around, god knows I did. But if you bother to ask, and bother to listen, and get your head out of your rear (cough cough some other poster who thought batteries sucked) then you can learn and improve. Which I bothered to do. It took me weeks (yes, I mean weeks) of digging through old threads, bothering fleetmates, and asking other players all over the game on how I could improve my damage as a cruiser. Naturally the first response I got was "fly an escort". I said no. They then (after a good laugh) told me straight to my face that I would never be able to deal heavy damage as a cruiser. This resulted in my first few cruiser threads being made. Which now looking back at them, I am ashamed of my naivety and stubborn stupidity.
But the thing is, you ask, you learn, you get better. In that order. Shame so few people either don't realize they need the help, or just outright don't want it (because they are too prideful/arrogant/stupid, or believe that they are doing fine despite everyone telling them something is wrong... cough cough, same guy mentioned before... cough cough).
But basically, my previous post states it all, don't really got much to add without repeating myself XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Heh... I went and looked at this thread, and looked at OP, and I knew exactly why you brought him into this convo. And I agree... this guy... just... well there are dozens of threads saying exactly what needs to be said about him (especially his most recent creation about federation flight deck cruisers...) so I don't think I need to add on to that.
I fly a cruiser in STO because it feels appropriate. An Engineer in a Cruiser. It just feels right to me. I've flown escorts in my Engineer, and it just feels wrong for some reason. Little space zippy thingy or space whale/tank. I'll take the whale thanks much. Besides, in every game I play, I play tank. It's what I am good at. Granted I still think that Federation ships in general are horribly designed functionality wise, and not that much better as aesthetics go, but that's another story/topic for another time.
The only thing is, Cruisers are hard to deal good damage with. Not impossible mind you, but not the easiest thing in the world. Most players get it wrong their first time around, god knows I did. But if you bother to ask, and bother to listen, and get your head out of your rear (cough cough some other poster who thought batteries sucked) then you can learn and improve. Which I bothered to do. It took me weeks (yes, I mean weeks) of digging through old threads, bothering fleetmates, and asking other players all over the game on how I could improve my damage as a cruiser. Naturally the first response I got was "fly an escort". I said no. They then (after a good laugh) told me straight to my face that I would never be able to deal heavy damage as a cruiser. This resulted in my first few cruiser threads being made. Which now looking back at them, I am ashamed of my naivety and stubborn stupidity.
But the thing is, you ask, you learn, you get better. In that order. Shame so few people either don't realize they need the help, or just outright don't want it (because they are too prideful/arrogant/stupid, or believe that they are doing fine despite everyone telling them something is wrong... cough cough, same guy mentioned before... cough cough).
But basically, my previous post states it all, don't really got much to add without repeating myself XD.
Would you mind sharing the end results of your research on this then please? If you have already done so, would you please post the link? I personally think it is difficult to be both a good tank and a good cruiser/dps'er, but am willing to learn.
Would you mind sharing the end results of your research on this then please? If you have already done so, would you please post the link? I personally think it is difficult to be both a good tank and a good cruiser/dps'er, but am willing to learn.
The results of my research came as such: you cannot effectively do both.
Cruisers can do one or the other decently (in the case of tanking excellently), but never both. Believe me, I've tried and failed miserably. The only cruisers I have found that can do both are the Tor'kaht (BC so a null point here), and the Fleet Excelsior, and the Fleet Excelsior can ONLY do decent damage due to it's 4 Tactical Consoles. Other than that, it's damage capabilities are quite limited. The Tactical Odyssey has the ability to gain a LtCmdr tactical in addition to a lt tactical, which gives it great options for combat. But if you're asking for my build? As much as I would love to post it up, I am pretty much the typing dead here, barely awake enough to think, for which I apologize. However, if you wish to see my build, say so, and when I am more awake enough, I will post my setup, BOff abilities, skills, and DOffs.
But sufficed to say, I have come to a pretty good median between tanking and DPSing (at least in my mind, this may not match other's opinions/facts/both), and it works well for me. I can deal decent damage, and still heal my team-mates well, while keeping myself alive. I don't do any of the 3 at peak capability, but I do them all well enough to not be a burden on my team in STFs or any other gameplay. I also know that I have room for improvement. Which I don't mean to sound arrogant, but it's a vast improvement over most cruiser pilots that you see flying around in STO...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Would you mind sharing the end results of your research on this then please? If you have already done so, would you please post the link? I personally think it is difficult to be both a good tank and a good cruiser/dps'er, but am willing to learn.
I too run a cruiser. I parse STFs regularly and find that I am not the worst, by DPS, of the group anymore. When I started, I was so bad, I was doing as little as 1/10th the damage I do nowadays. I listen, I ask questions, and am always willing to make changes that make sense for my play style. I do balance changes with trying to not sacrifice much to my ability to survive.
No matter what I have done, a cruiser is not going to be dishing out the most DPS unless I pug it, but it isn't always necessary. Drawing the fire and absorbing that damage, tanking, is a perfectly acceptable way of operating a cruiser. Your escort buddies will have an easier time getting high DPS and might just have too much fun to realize that you helped.
The only cruisers I have found that can do both are the Tor'kaht (BC so a null point here), and the Fleet Excelsior, and the Fleet Excelsior
So I see you haven't tried the D'kora Marauder...
And I'd like to point out what I've said before, if every cruiser could do what the battlecruisers could do, there'd be a lot less complaints about them. They're very nice and well balanced ships.
And I'd like to point out what I've said before, if every cruiser could do what the battlecruisers could do, there'd be a lot less complaints about them. They're very nice and well balanced ships.
But how are they balanced to the KDF ideology and why is the Fed Cruisers not balanced to thiers?
The BOff layouts for the most part is identical at each rank.
The Consoles slots differ with more Engineering for the fed cruisers with less Tactical and more Tactical with less science for the KDF.
The turn rate differences between the Cruiser and Battle Cruiser is aproxiamtely between 2-4 points depending on vessel choice.
The KDF tends to have larger crews over the federation.
The federation Cruisers tend to have more base hull than the KDF Battle Cruisers.
The fed Cruiser gets +5 to all power levels, the KDF BC get +10 weapons and +10 engines.
The KDF battle cruiser can mount cannons of all types and has a standard cloak.
The differences seem minor to me and the turn rate difference is the only glaring thing that stands out. I've been in support of a C/BC turn rate buff.
I fly a cruiser in STO because it feels appropriate. An Engineer in a Cruiser. It just feels right to me. I've flown escorts in my Engineer, and it just feels wrong for some reason.
I have flown an cruiser as an engineer. I don't play it anymore. Now, I fly a Thor'kat (DHC buid) cruiser as an tac and, PVE wise, are much happier. Though this ship is one of the most best PvE ships, it's turnrate is too low for PvP, so BoP is still the way to go in PvP.
Ok, I had to admit, I found out very recently about the real trick how to deal damage with a cruiser. It's all about energy overcap. Though I informed myself very much by the forums, I didn't know that an overcap for weapon energy exists, which is not shown. I think, this is a problem. Energy overcap should be shown, I think mnay failboats could be prevented by this simple feature.
Nevertheless, 8-beam broadsiding with weapon energy overcap might be dealing very good damage, however, mostly because of limited number of tac BOFs on a cruiser they won't reach the damage output of an escort. 2 tac BOF slots have to be located to tac team that is just a must-have.
I do not have a lot of experience pvping, so I don't know how much my 2 cents will matter.
My primary char is a VA Tac that flies an Assault Cruiser. I try to fly a Tank/DPS hybrid. In order to achieve a very high DPS, I stack weapon power consoles and powers like EPtW and Aux2Battery, ensuring that my weapon power levels do not dip much below 90 when I'm attacking.
Tanking is another story. I'm not that great at tanking. I can withstand a heavy assault for a short amount of time, but I lack the build and experience required to "Tank Indefinitely." Example: Long time ago when the Borg set was 4 pieces, I'd pvp cruisers with the 3-piece bonus and a High-cap Covariant Shield. I could not....COULD NOT break through their shields even for a second. It was literally impossible.
That's what it seems to me the Cruiser should be in PvP. With Escorts, its about combining all firepower to output so much damage the enemy can't survive - winning before they have their chance to get the upper hand. With Cruisers, it should be the opposite. You have to outlast your opponent to the point where you're priming your attack when they're coming off their high.
Just my 2 cents. I don't know how to do this, but it seems like it should work.
Personally I like the cruiser playstyle and role but I have also accepted that the cruiser class is not like the classic Star Trek cruiser from TV or the movies. I think a lot of people watch the shows and expect that experience to translate to this game but it doesn't, and that causes confusion and frustration.
I just wish cruisers were a little better at healing team mate shields. I'd love to have a cruiser with a lt com science station so I can lay down a really decent science team or a really good TSS (star cruiser refit?).
Off Topic but related - the whole engineering captain team power thing? Well the way I see it the Engineer Captain should make a cruiser almost indestructable that so he can stay in a fight and continue to throw hull heals and extend shields on his escort buddies. That's not being selfish, that's the way an Eng/Cruiser combo should work.
But how are they balanced to the KDF ideology and why is the Fed Cruisers not balanced to thiers?
The Consoles slots differ with more Engineering for the fed cruisers with less Tactical and more Tactical with less science for the KDF.
+damage
The turn rate differences between the Cruiser and Battle Cruiser is aproxiamtely between 2-4 points depending on vessel choice.
Wrong way to think of it. The turn rate difference between a cruiser and battlecruiser is approximately 30-40%. This translates into the ability to take up and maintain efficient firing positions, which means
+damage
The KDF tends to have larger crews over the federation.
Crew is a completely broken mechanic and is irrelevant.
The federation Cruisers tend to have more base hull than the KDF Battle Cruisers.
Not by a useful amount. Survival is about how much you can harden your ship and how fast you can reverse damage. The extra 2000-3000 hitpoints that federation cruisers tend to have doesn't really matter when both ships have access to the same healing abilities and armor.
The fed Cruiser gets +5 to all power levels, the KDF BC get +10 weapons and +10 engines.
+damage, +damage
Also worth pointing out, once again, that only the KDF has the plasmonic leech. This is a minimum of an additional +5 to all power levels, +10 with minimum investment, and as much as +15 if you get serious about it. Federation has the MACO shield, which only provides its bonus if you're the one being shot at while the plasmonic leech can offer the same benefit any time you're the one doing the shooting.
The KDF battle cruiser can mount cannons of all types and has a standard cloak.
+damage
The complaint against whale cruisers is that they are underpowered in firepower, and guess what; KDF's battlecruisers have significantly more firepower. They have the option of carrying the highest-DPS weaponry, they have more weapon power, more tactical consoles, and better agility. KDF's battlecruisers combine high durability with decent firepower. They won't beat an escort in damage output per alphastrike, but they can hang on bulldog-fashion and savage their opponent while the escorts fly off to recharge and lick their wounds. Battlecruisers come out strong for damage output in the long game.
So going back to your original question, why are the Federation's cruisers not balanced for their ideology... The Federation values life, advancement, and stability. They like diplomacy and science and engineering. The KDF likes battle and conquest and glory. The basic problem with the Federation's cruisers is that they'd be really good at things that aren't even in the game. Because the game's space aspects are entirely focused on combat and the KDF is better at combat, battlecruisers come out ahead.
And tanking? If my choice of team was 1 whale tank plus 4 escorts or 1 escort plus 4 battlecruisers, I'd go with the battlecruisers. They're going to lock shields and march over everything in their path without caring about aggro or making sure the "right" person is the one getting shot.
Maybe the real question is why are dedicated tanks so useless given that ships with greater firepower can survive just fine without them.
I just wish cruisers were a little better at healing team mate shields.
You have Extend Shields, which offers much better "up time" and shield hardening than TSS. Throw ExShields 3 on somebody who's even half awake and they're going to become functionally immortal for 30 seconds at a time.
Would you mind sharing the end results of your research on this then please? If you have already done so, would you please post the link? I personally think it is difficult to be both a good tank and a good cruiser/dps'er, but am willing to learn.
Alright, as promised, now that I am much more awake, my cruiser build that resulted from all my research and testing. Disclaimer: This build is not meant to be maximized in anything in particular, only be effective in everything. I cannot out-damage cruisers that are geared entirely towards damage, I cannot out-tank cruisers geared entirely towards tanking, and I cannot out-heal cruiser geared entirely towards healing. But I can do all 3 of those with moderate to decent effectiveness.
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser
Weapons:
Fore: AP BA mkXII [acc][crth][borg]x3, Quantum Torpedo Launcher mk XII [acc][crth][borg]
Aft: AP BA mk XII [acc][crth][borg]x4
(yes, I use STF borg weapons, what of it, they were cheap and easy to get =P)
Consoles:
Tactical: AP Mag Regulator mk XII (green) x3
Engineering: Neutronium Alloy mk XI (blue) x4
Science: Field Generator mk XI (blue), Universal Assimilated Module, Chevron Separation Console
DOff Setup: (all purple)
Conn Officer (TT cd and buff) x2
Damage Control Engineer x2
Warp Core Engineer
Results:
When I am just casually using abilities, I get right around 3700 constant DPS (usually a little higher, depends on how lazy I am being and how often my WCE procs), with the ability to spike up to 5200 or higher (this one depends more on crits and distance from target, in addition to how often I use my torpedo launcher). Highest DPS that I recorded was 8k for a 30 second period. Then my EPS transfer skill went on cd, and my DPS dropped back to 3700. My overall survivability is acceptable, but not amazing, as is my healing ability.
As stated, it's a balanced 7/10 for all 3 categories.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Wrong way to think of it. The turn rate difference between a cruiser and battlecruiser is approximately 30-40%. This translates into the ability to take up and maintain efficient firing positions, which means
+damage
Crew is a completely broken mechanic and is irrelevant.
Not by a useful amount. Survival is about how much you can harden your ship and how fast you can reverse damage. The extra 2000-3000 hitpoints that federation cruisers tend to have doesn't really matter when both ships have access to the same healing abilities and armor.
+damage, +damage
Also worth pointing out, once again, that only the KDF has the plasmonic leech. This is a minimum of an additional +5 to all power levels, +10 with minimum investment, and as much as +15 if you get serious about it. Federation has the MACO shield, which only provides its bonus if you're the one being shot at while the plasmonic leech can offer the same benefit any time you're the one doing the shooting.
+damage
The complaint against whale cruisers is that they are underpowered in firepower, and guess what; KDF's battlecruisers have significantly more firepower. They have the option of carrying the highest-DPS weaponry, they have more weapon power, more tactical consoles, and better agility. KDF's battlecruisers combine high durability with decent firepower. They won't beat an escort in damage output per alphastrike, but they can hang on bulldog-fashion and savage their opponent while the escorts fly off to recharge and lick their wounds. Battlecruisers come out strong for damage output in the long game.
So going back to your original question, why are the Federation's cruisers not balanced for their ideology... The Federation values life, advancement, and stability. They like diplomacy and science and engineering. The KDF likes battle and conquest and glory. The basic problem with the Federation's cruisers is that they'd be really good at things that aren't even in the game. Because the game's space aspects are entirely focused on combat and the KDF is better at combat, battlecruisers come out ahead.
And tanking? If my choice of team was 1 whale tank plus 4 escorts or 1 escort plus 4 battlecruisers, I'd go with the battlecruisers. They're going to lock shields and march over everything in their path without caring about aggro or making sure the "right" person is the one getting shot.
Maybe the real question is why are dedicated tanks so useless given that ships with greater firepower can survive just fine without them.
Obviously just my opinions but there ya go.
FYI, only 1 federation cruiser which has more HP than a KDF cruiser (Fleet Negh'var), and thats the galaxy class. The FleetStarcruiser, Fleet assualt, fleet advanced heavy cruise have the same hull and shield stats, odyssey has less hull but 0.05 more shields. The Galaxy class has 1,100 more hull.
So, because the KDF are damage based, they need 2 to 3 more turn, cloak and cannons. To balance this against the fed, they get minus 1 battery slot.
To balance this against the fed, they get minus 1 battery slot.
Which is kind of laughable.
I had the inkling of an idea though when you said that about batteries though. There was one episode of TNG where they were in the middle of some kind of power crisis and something was said about already being maxed out on N auxiliary fusion generators where N was somewhere in the neighborhood of 5. What I get from this is that the Galaxy class has a warp core for providing the bulk of its power but has a bunch of secondary generators that can be warmed up if the fuel cost can be justified.
Is it too far fetched to extend this to all Federation cruisers in general, and say that they should get a built in "auxiliary generators" skill that can develop more power as needed? Put it in the same place that the carrier commands would occupy. You get a button for each of weapons, shields, engines and auxiliary, and you can toggle each one on and off. There would be a total of +20 power shared between all of the systems you are feeding auxiliary power into. So this means you could have for example +5 to everything, +10 to weapons and shields, or +20 to auxiliary alone, depending on what you need at the moment.
It would give Federation cruisers considerably more meat, and stay within their "Engineering and science is awesome!" philosophy.
Is it too far fetched to extend this to all Federation cruisers in general, and say that they should get a built in "auxiliary generators" skill that can develop more power as needed? Put it in the same place that the carrier commands would occupy. You get a button for each of weapons, shields, engines and auxiliary, and you can toggle each one on and off. There would be a total of +20 power shared between all of the systems you are feeding auxiliary power into. So this means you could have for example +5 to everything, +10 to weapons and shields, or +20 to auxiliary alone, depending on what you need at the moment.
It would give Federation cruisers considerably more meat, and stay within their "Engineering and science is awesome!" philosophy.
I had the inkling of an idea though when you said that about batteries though. There was one episode of TNG where they were in the middle of some kind of power crisis and something was said about already being maxed out on N auxiliary fusion generators where N was somewhere in the neighborhood of 5. What I get from this is that the Galaxy class has a warp core for providing the bulk of its power but has a bunch of secondary generators that can be warmed up if the fuel cost can be justified.
Is it too far fetched to extend this to all Federation cruisers in general, and say that they should get a built in "auxiliary generators" skill that can develop more power as needed? Put it in the same place that the carrier commands would occupy. You get a button for each of weapons, shields, engines and auxiliary, and you can toggle each one on and off. There would be a total of +20 power shared between all of the systems you are feeding auxiliary power into. So this means you could have for example +5 to everything, +10 to weapons and shields, or +20 to auxiliary alone, depending on what you need at the moment.
It would give Federation cruisers considerably more meat, and stay within their "Engineering and science is awesome!" philosophy.
I kind of like it, but I think that +20 to anything as an innate ability of the ship class might be too much. If you max out at +10 in any power levels, that should be okay.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I don't see why the cruiser class can't have an extra +5 to all and give beams 10% damage boost (considering they lost 20% somewhere, it wouldn't hurt very much in the grand scheme of things, of and make heals percentage based, I stick by that one
I kind of like it, but I think that +20 to anything as an innate ability of the ship class might be too much. If you max out at +10 in any power levels, that should be okay.
On second thought, the ability to rebalance that much bonus power would be a significant change and put other ships at a disadvantage.
Maybe give cruisers an innate bonus to Electro-Plasma Systems in addition to the +5 in every power level? The ability to reallocate power faster would be enough of an advantage without necessarily being too much of an advantage.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Comments
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
More accurately:
If you want your cruiser to DPS and still be an awesome tank, you're expecting too much. If you want your cruiser to tank like a boss (what it was designed to do) and still hit like a freight train, you're expecting too much.
However if your cruiser can't do either one successfully, they you are indeed doing it wrong.
corrected for you. :P
There was no correction necessary. I have been flying cruisers for as long as I have been playing. I have dabbled in escorts and raptors, but in the end I always go back to my space whale. And it can put out some pretty serious damage, at the cost of a lot of tankiness I'll grant you, but cruisers if set up right can still do some respectable DPS.
You will note in my original statement, I stated that if you wanted to DPS, but I did not state the level of DPS. Of course I know that cruisers will never come close to escort DPS, but tbh they aren't that far behind. Your average escort running full mk XI blue consoles with mk XII weapons will usually sustain 5.5k DPS with spikes up to 12-18k. Your average cruiser doing the same thing will sustain 3.7k DPS with spikes up to 8k DPS. Total DPS is not that far behind.
Your "correction" would have been accurate if I had stated that if you want STRONG dps from your cruiser. As is, I just stated DPS.
I second this after my recent tweaks to my Excelsior build, I do need to run a DPS meter on it but it puts out a good 7-10k per volley with 2 23k volleys in a minute happening every three minutes. on top of this it still tanks very well indeed, Heretick has seen it happen multiple times, so if you get the right cruiser with the right build you can DPS fairly well AND tank while you do so.
Any chance you could let me take a look at that build? I am curious to see how close my build is to it.
Sure
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=7109951&postcount=139
Examples:
Skittle-Turret Odyssey Operations Cruiser. I ran into this same boat at least a dozen times in a number of STFs and fleet actions over the course of a two week period.
Rainbow DBB/Skittle Turret Regent. I ran into this boat 4 times in the same day. Never saw it again. For that matter, never saw that player again.
Full Phaser MUAC running 6/2 setup with quantums. A viable and legit setup. But only doing 350 damage per shot. *facepalm
I could go on and on, hell I could probably start a new thread of fail cruiser builds we have run across, but that's not the point I am trying to make. Cruisers get the sense and feel of being weak as hell, because the majority of the players using them are weak players. They don't seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their ships, or overcompensate for them (turret oddy). Or don't trust their ship to survive enough to let her loose (MUAC with all power to shields, I swear, since his shields never went down when he got attacked), or just fail completely (DBB turret regent... ugh).
As a result of the majority of cruiser pilots being like that (majority, not all mind you), cruisers tend to get a really really bad name. I mean you have players that can do things with a tactical odyssey that will leave your mouth hanging, and others that will leave you feeling sick (if you're a cruiser pilot), or laughing (escort pilot).
TL;DR
Cruisers themselves are great ships, they can actually do a lot of damage and stay alive in the process, and in some cases be excellent healers. It's just that fail pilots that can't use them to their full potential are the majority of what you see in cruisers and as a result, give the rest of us that are actually competent a bad name.
Note:
There have been times where I have actually been given TRIBBLE (usually by an overzealous escort pilot, or tac cruiser captain in his purty little Regent/Excelsior) for showing up in an ESTF in an Odyssey until they realize I can maintain a quite high DPS, high enough that I don't hold the team back. And I can usually keep the team alive pretty well with healing ability. You won't find that ability anywhere else. A ship that can deal some decent damage while still being able to heal his team-mates back to full from the brink of death (ok, some sci ships can do that, but that's not the point here).
I once asked one of these guys why he was getting on my case for my ship choice, and he said: "You're an Oddy. Those ships are giant flying wastes of space. They can't hurt anything, and are useless. Get out of that piece of wasted money as soon as you can."
I asked him why he said that, and he responded (after some profanity at me for being another stupid engi): "I have never seen a successful Oddy. They always die, they always can't dps, and they always fail as healers. It's just a fail ship. Stop bothering me."
Sufficed to say, it took most of the STF and me saving his rear twice from instant death for him to finally relent and say that "Ok, not all of you space whales are bad. But trust me, you're better off in an escort, that ship sucks." Then Donatra hit the whole team with one of her triple torp spreads, and mine was the only survivor. He shut up after that. At the end of the STF (after I had held aggro on donatra for the rest of her health bar) he grudgingly admitted that maybe it wasn't such a terrible ship. A victory, albeit a small one.
Forgive the long post, my thoughts just kept on coming XD...
After reading through all the replies to this thread, this post tells exactly how it is. You can have the best ship, gear, boffs, doffs, etc all you want but if you don't understand how it all works together and can fine tune the available possibilities of the synergies then you might aswell be flying a miranda.
Simply put if a player is not willing to learn then move on, if you find a player willing to learn then help them improve their setups for thier playstyles (which in turn they might help the next player they see; similar thing myself and a few friends did first time the current STF's came out to improve the over all success rate back in the day when pugging.).
I myself as a tac; fly a tactical oddy and the command bortasq'ue; both haveing a min/maxed build where possible based on my experience.. I still fine tune my build if I see a way to boost my (keyword being here) Sustained dps and HOT's as needed, but generally I can hold my own and push out a decent amount of dps to hold aggro with a few escorts shooting the same target even without threat control.
Twitter | Blog | Original Join Date: Dec 2007 | Gaming Setup | Raptr Profile | Gamer DNA
The opinions expressed in my posts are my own views and do not reflect on any other entity(s) or person(s) I may or may not represent at the time.
All of this is true. If you do not know how to use the tools you have they will not work properly for you in thier application. Unfortunately the ones who need to learn this often ignore it and claim its not thier fault but the Cruiser itself or thier Class choice in flying one.
Some people do want a better view from standing on the backs of others and no amount evidence to the contrary will not convince them its a poor idea. Here is a good example.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=7153491&posted=1#post7153491
Even after being shown that the bulk of the Tactical Captain abilities are Team-based, the OP refused to give up the crusade to change the Classes to suit his ideals.
I do not understand this mentality. Rather than fix the game to benefit all, some wish to fix it to benefit just themselves....
This mentality more than anything is what keeps, me at least, from playing STO. How am I, or others like myself, suppossed to enjoy a game that may be changed at the whim of a few fans? How can we enjoy PvP knowing that the other guy will only complain they where "cheated" by the game itself becuase my class is better at what they are designed to do over a class that is not?
Frankly, I'm surprised at the ego-centric attitudes of some Star Trek fans on this subject.
R.I.P
Esp when it comes to ability nerfs..people need to learn to adapt to change aswell as understand not all nerfs are done to invalidate an item or power for the sake of balance, it's the idea or rotational change and its done to keep the gameplay from stagnating too much if a build or two become over used to the point of everything the content teams make become walk in the parks, then they make the adjustments..hell even with my build im at least able to get 1st place in the space FA's most of the time on Fed and 2nd on KDF (trying for first for the trophy on the occasion but too many bops at times)
To be frank I fly a cruiser in sto because I like to have a challenge, same thing when choosing classes and build in gen in other games I play, things get boring when you can kill everything in less than a sec; Keeping things challenging keeps you alert aswell as helps you improve over time instead of loosing interest and getting worse overtime.
Twitter | Blog | Original Join Date: Dec 2007 | Gaming Setup | Raptr Profile | Gamer DNA
The opinions expressed in my posts are my own views and do not reflect on any other entity(s) or person(s) I may or may not represent at the time.
Heh... I went and looked at this thread, and looked at OP, and I knew exactly why you brought him into this convo. And I agree... this guy... just... well there are dozens of threads saying exactly what needs to be said about him (especially his most recent creation about federation flight deck cruisers...) so I don't think I need to add on to that.
I fly a cruiser in STO because it feels appropriate. An Engineer in a Cruiser. It just feels right to me. I've flown escorts in my Engineer, and it just feels wrong for some reason. Little space zippy thingy or space whale/tank. I'll take the whale thanks much. Besides, in every game I play, I play tank. It's what I am good at. Granted I still think that Federation ships in general are horribly designed functionality wise, and not that much better as aesthetics go, but that's another story/topic for another time.
The only thing is, Cruisers are hard to deal good damage with. Not impossible mind you, but not the easiest thing in the world. Most players get it wrong their first time around, god knows I did. But if you bother to ask, and bother to listen, and get your head out of your rear (cough cough some other poster who thought batteries sucked) then you can learn and improve. Which I bothered to do. It took me weeks (yes, I mean weeks) of digging through old threads, bothering fleetmates, and asking other players all over the game on how I could improve my damage as a cruiser. Naturally the first response I got was "fly an escort". I said no. They then (after a good laugh) told me straight to my face that I would never be able to deal heavy damage as a cruiser. This resulted in my first few cruiser threads being made. Which now looking back at them, I am ashamed of my naivety and stubborn stupidity.
But the thing is, you ask, you learn, you get better. In that order. Shame so few people either don't realize they need the help, or just outright don't want it (because they are too prideful/arrogant/stupid, or believe that they are doing fine despite everyone telling them something is wrong... cough cough, same guy mentioned before... cough cough).
But basically, my previous post states it all, don't really got much to add without repeating myself XD.
Would you mind sharing the end results of your research on this then please? If you have already done so, would you please post the link? I personally think it is difficult to be both a good tank and a good cruiser/dps'er, but am willing to learn.
The results of my research came as such: you cannot effectively do both.
Cruisers can do one or the other decently (in the case of tanking excellently), but never both. Believe me, I've tried and failed miserably. The only cruisers I have found that can do both are the Tor'kaht (BC so a null point here), and the Fleet Excelsior, and the Fleet Excelsior can ONLY do decent damage due to it's 4 Tactical Consoles. Other than that, it's damage capabilities are quite limited. The Tactical Odyssey has the ability to gain a LtCmdr tactical in addition to a lt tactical, which gives it great options for combat. But if you're asking for my build? As much as I would love to post it up, I am pretty much the typing dead here, barely awake enough to think, for which I apologize. However, if you wish to see my build, say so, and when I am more awake enough, I will post my setup, BOff abilities, skills, and DOffs.
But sufficed to say, I have come to a pretty good median between tanking and DPSing (at least in my mind, this may not match other's opinions/facts/both), and it works well for me. I can deal decent damage, and still heal my team-mates well, while keeping myself alive. I don't do any of the 3 at peak capability, but I do them all well enough to not be a burden on my team in STFs or any other gameplay. I also know that I have room for improvement. Which I don't mean to sound arrogant, but it's a vast improvement over most cruiser pilots that you see flying around in STO...
Here
It shuold have links to everything you may need or be curiuos about.
R.I.P
No matter what I have done, a cruiser is not going to be dishing out the most DPS unless I pug it, but it isn't always necessary. Drawing the fire and absorbing that damage, tanking, is a perfectly acceptable way of operating a cruiser. Your escort buddies will have an easier time getting high DPS and might just have too much fun to realize that you helped.
So I see you haven't tried the D'kora Marauder...
And I'd like to point out what I've said before, if every cruiser could do what the battlecruisers could do, there'd be a lot less complaints about them. They're very nice and well balanced ships.
But how are they balanced to the KDF ideology and why is the Fed Cruisers not balanced to thiers?
The BOff layouts for the most part is identical at each rank.
The Consoles slots differ with more Engineering for the fed cruisers with less Tactical and more Tactical with less science for the KDF.
The turn rate differences between the Cruiser and Battle Cruiser is aproxiamtely between 2-4 points depending on vessel choice.
The KDF tends to have larger crews over the federation.
The federation Cruisers tend to have more base hull than the KDF Battle Cruisers.
The fed Cruiser gets +5 to all power levels, the KDF BC get +10 weapons and +10 engines.
The KDF battle cruiser can mount cannons of all types and has a standard cloak.
The differences seem minor to me and the turn rate difference is the only glaring thing that stands out. I've been in support of a C/BC turn rate buff.
R.I.P
I have flown an cruiser as an engineer. I don't play it anymore. Now, I fly a Thor'kat (DHC buid) cruiser as an tac and, PVE wise, are much happier. Though this ship is one of the most best PvE ships, it's turnrate is too low for PvP, so BoP is still the way to go in PvP.
Ok, I had to admit, I found out very recently about the real trick how to deal damage with a cruiser. It's all about energy overcap. Though I informed myself very much by the forums, I didn't know that an overcap for weapon energy exists, which is not shown. I think, this is a problem. Energy overcap should be shown, I think mnay failboats could be prevented by this simple feature.
Nevertheless, 8-beam broadsiding with weapon energy overcap might be dealing very good damage, however, mostly because of limited number of tac BOFs on a cruiser they won't reach the damage output of an escort. 2 tac BOF slots have to be located to tac team that is just a must-have.
My primary char is a VA Tac that flies an Assault Cruiser. I try to fly a Tank/DPS hybrid. In order to achieve a very high DPS, I stack weapon power consoles and powers like EPtW and Aux2Battery, ensuring that my weapon power levels do not dip much below 90 when I'm attacking.
Tanking is another story. I'm not that great at tanking. I can withstand a heavy assault for a short amount of time, but I lack the build and experience required to "Tank Indefinitely." Example: Long time ago when the Borg set was 4 pieces, I'd pvp cruisers with the 3-piece bonus and a High-cap Covariant Shield. I could not....COULD NOT break through their shields even for a second. It was literally impossible.
That's what it seems to me the Cruiser should be in PvP. With Escorts, its about combining all firepower to output so much damage the enemy can't survive - winning before they have their chance to get the upper hand. With Cruisers, it should be the opposite. You have to outlast your opponent to the point where you're priming your attack when they're coming off their high.
Just my 2 cents. I don't know how to do this, but it seems like it should work.
I just wish cruisers were a little better at healing team mate shields. I'd love to have a cruiser with a lt com science station so I can lay down a really decent science team or a really good TSS (star cruiser refit?).
Off Topic but related - the whole engineering captain team power thing? Well the way I see it the Engineer Captain should make a cruiser almost indestructable that so he can stay in a fight and continue to throw hull heals and extend shields on his escort buddies. That's not being selfish, that's the way an Eng/Cruiser combo should work.
+damage
Wrong way to think of it. The turn rate difference between a cruiser and battlecruiser is approximately 30-40%. This translates into the ability to take up and maintain efficient firing positions, which means
+damage
Crew is a completely broken mechanic and is irrelevant.
Not by a useful amount. Survival is about how much you can harden your ship and how fast you can reverse damage. The extra 2000-3000 hitpoints that federation cruisers tend to have doesn't really matter when both ships have access to the same healing abilities and armor.
+damage, +damage
Also worth pointing out, once again, that only the KDF has the plasmonic leech. This is a minimum of an additional +5 to all power levels, +10 with minimum investment, and as much as +15 if you get serious about it. Federation has the MACO shield, which only provides its bonus if you're the one being shot at while the plasmonic leech can offer the same benefit any time you're the one doing the shooting.
+damage
The complaint against whale cruisers is that they are underpowered in firepower, and guess what; KDF's battlecruisers have significantly more firepower. They have the option of carrying the highest-DPS weaponry, they have more weapon power, more tactical consoles, and better agility. KDF's battlecruisers combine high durability with decent firepower. They won't beat an escort in damage output per alphastrike, but they can hang on bulldog-fashion and savage their opponent while the escorts fly off to recharge and lick their wounds. Battlecruisers come out strong for damage output in the long game.
So going back to your original question, why are the Federation's cruisers not balanced for their ideology... The Federation values life, advancement, and stability. They like diplomacy and science and engineering. The KDF likes battle and conquest and glory. The basic problem with the Federation's cruisers is that they'd be really good at things that aren't even in the game. Because the game's space aspects are entirely focused on combat and the KDF is better at combat, battlecruisers come out ahead.
And tanking? If my choice of team was 1 whale tank plus 4 escorts or 1 escort plus 4 battlecruisers, I'd go with the battlecruisers. They're going to lock shields and march over everything in their path without caring about aggro or making sure the "right" person is the one getting shot.
Maybe the real question is why are dedicated tanks so useless given that ships with greater firepower can survive just fine without them.
Obviously just my opinions but there ya go.
You have Extend Shields, which offers much better "up time" and shield hardening than TSS. Throw ExShields 3 on somebody who's even half awake and they're going to become functionally immortal for 30 seconds at a time.
Alright, as promised, now that I am much more awake, my cruiser build that resulted from all my research and testing. Disclaimer: This build is not meant to be maximized in anything in particular, only be effective in everything. I cannot out-damage cruisers that are geared entirely towards damage, I cannot out-tank cruisers geared entirely towards tanking, and I cannot out-heal cruiser geared entirely towards healing. But I can do all 3 of those with moderate to decent effectiveness.
Odyssey Tactical Cruiser
Weapons:
Fore: AP BA mkXII [acc][crth][borg]x3, Quantum Torpedo Launcher mk XII [acc][crth][borg]
Aft: AP BA mk XII [acc][crth][borg]x4
(yes, I use STF borg weapons, what of it, they were cheap and easy to get =P)
Consoles:
Tactical: AP Mag Regulator mk XII (green) x3
Engineering: Neutronium Alloy mk XI (blue) x4
Science: Field Generator mk XI (blue), Universal Assimilated Module, Chevron Separation Console
BOff Setup:
Lt Tactical: TT1, APB1
LtCmdr Universal: TS1, BFAW2, APD2
Lt Science: HE1, TSS2
Ensign Universal: HE1
Cmdr Engineering: EPtS1, EPtW2, ET3, Aux2SIF3
DOff Setup: (all purple)
Conn Officer (TT cd and buff) x2
Damage Control Engineer x2
Warp Core Engineer
Results:
When I am just casually using abilities, I get right around 3700 constant DPS (usually a little higher, depends on how lazy I am being and how often my WCE procs), with the ability to spike up to 5200 or higher (this one depends more on crits and distance from target, in addition to how often I use my torpedo launcher). Highest DPS that I recorded was 8k for a 30 second period. Then my EPS transfer skill went on cd, and my DPS dropped back to 3700. My overall survivability is acceptable, but not amazing, as is my healing ability.
As stated, it's a balanced 7/10 for all 3 categories.
FYI, only 1 federation cruiser which has more HP than a KDF cruiser (Fleet Negh'var), and thats the galaxy class. The FleetStarcruiser, Fleet assualt, fleet advanced heavy cruise have the same hull and shield stats, odyssey has less hull but 0.05 more shields. The Galaxy class has 1,100 more hull.
So, because the KDF are damage based, they need 2 to 3 more turn, cloak and cannons. To balance this against the fed, they get minus 1 battery slot.
Which is kind of laughable.
I had the inkling of an idea though when you said that about batteries though. There was one episode of TNG where they were in the middle of some kind of power crisis and something was said about already being maxed out on N auxiliary fusion generators where N was somewhere in the neighborhood of 5. What I get from this is that the Galaxy class has a warp core for providing the bulk of its power but has a bunch of secondary generators that can be warmed up if the fuel cost can be justified.
Is it too far fetched to extend this to all Federation cruisers in general, and say that they should get a built in "auxiliary generators" skill that can develop more power as needed? Put it in the same place that the carrier commands would occupy. You get a button for each of weapons, shields, engines and auxiliary, and you can toggle each one on and off. There would be a total of +20 power shared between all of the systems you are feeding auxiliary power into. So this means you could have for example +5 to everything, +10 to weapons and shields, or +20 to auxiliary alone, depending on what you need at the moment.
It would give Federation cruisers considerably more meat, and stay within their "Engineering and science is awesome!" philosophy.
This would actually be kind of interesting.
I kind of like it, but I think that +20 to anything as an innate ability of the ship class might be too much. If you max out at +10 in any power levels, that should be okay.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
On second thought, the ability to rebalance that much bonus power would be a significant change and put other ships at a disadvantage.
Maybe give cruisers an innate bonus to Electro-Plasma Systems in addition to the +5 in every power level? The ability to reallocate power faster would be enough of an advantage without necessarily being too much of an advantage.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek