Another bad assumption on your part, I asked you to stop that.
It's you thats making the bad assumptions.
Look on an escort your allready fast enough to cap your defence so it is of no use whatsoever. So to start with thats a whole very popular class that aren't getting asny benefit out of this. Most cruisers won't get enough of a boost to offset the lost resistances and power boosts. Science are one of the few i see getting a benefit out of this. Their getting enough of a boost to defence, (and allready evade enough damage), that the boost may in specific cases outweigh the resistance boost becuase the base % of damage their taking after evashion deductions is low enough to make extra defece better than resistances.
Tetryon glider doesn't do enough damage against Borg shields to be useful in STFs, and that's with flow cap skill at 6 or 9. I can easily bring down cube shields in one volley with skills popped without yet glider. Not too mention that anything above a probe (or similar ships from other factions) looks to have little effect, or just not enough of one.
I would much rather see something like a Borg augment or maybe something like a small damage resistance debuff like attack pattern beta.
It's possible to double the 99 points w/2 consoles and a deflector or 3 consoles depending on the ship sci console layout. Earlier in the thread I listed the damage it does. It's not insignificant and it's basically free for using 2 parts.
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That is wrong, it was before the fleet engines came along hyper-impulse with [spd]x3 [turn]. is a lot faster then the omega engine.
You're right, I've been eyeing the 3xturn, speed hyper engines and forgot about the 3xspeed turn hyper engines. Also, I've been thinking of waiting to see what the elite specs look like. Still, as far as set engines go there isn't one that's faster.
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Look on an escort your allready fast enough to cap your defence so it is of no use whatsoever. So to start with thats a whole very popular class that aren't getting asny benefit out of this. Most cruisers won't get enough of a boost to offset the lost resistances and power boosts. Science are one of the few i see getting a benefit out of this. Their getting enough of a boost to defence, (and allready evade enough damage), that the boost may in specific cases outweigh the resistance boost becuase the base % of damage their taking after evashion deductions is low enough to make extra defece better than resistances.
What bad assumption have I made?
I use the engines and shields on Raiders, Cruisers, Carriers, and Destroyers w/Tac and Sci Captains for both PvE and PvP.
There's more to engine speed than defensive value bonus. There's piloting and positioning and being able to move from point A to point B in as fast a manner as possible in and out of full impulse.
Further the shield proc boosts more than speed they also boost turnrate and inertia values.
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I'm using 3 parts of KHG on my tac kdf char on an escort, not because the 3 set part bonus is gorgeous but because all of the 3 individual set parts are superior to the borg set. The hot restart is clearly worth the engines themselves, the deflector gives me several usefull bonuses (+8.8electro plasma systems, +17 structural integrity, +17 flow capacitor [phased tetryon user], +8.8 stealth, and you know how good the shield can be). So even without a great 3 part bonuses, each part is worth it, maybe not as good as the MACO shields and deflector for tanking, but 3 KHG part isn't a bad option as long as you don't focus on set powers only.
The 3rd KHG power has no use at all, you can't fire your weapons while activated and on top of that you can't use it under red alert. Let's be honest, any power you can't use under red alert has very little use. An interesting buff would be the ability to use it in this situation as a defensive skill, that would be enough to make it on par with the improvements you intend to give to the maco set (disabling 3 subsystems + KB vs a real defensive power).
I HAD to mark this one.
I have enough EDC's to buy the complete 3 piece mk11 set to replace the AEGIS (which works GREAT in anything but ESTF's) and as I don't run torps or mines the REMAN and Omega bonus is useless to me.
But I gotta know- is that 3rd KHG power really unavailable while under red alert ? IF it is then the set is useless and I'll likely cash out my EDC's, rare and proto salvage as I'm going to opt-out of the entire Romulan gear store BS.
Not sure why the thread I started in PvP forum was moved here?
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I use those shields on a variety of ships w/differing builds, and w/both Sci and Tac Captains. So much for 1 niche ...
You're still one just one player - you're completely welcome to your opinion on the Omega shield proc and I'm willing to hear you out on it.
Ultimately though I think, and I believe many others would agree, that the Omega Shield Proc is in third place - with MACO being the best proc and KHG coming in second.
One thing to keep in mind about MACO, while under fire (which is the same requirement as Omega's shield) you're looking at an additional 10 power to engines and any speed/turn rate advantages (which is a variable) that come with it.
Generally speaking you could be looking at 1 to 3 degrees of added turn rate.
You're still one just one player - you're completely welcome to your opinion on the Omega shield proc and I'm willing to hear you out on it.
Ultimately though I think, and I believe many others would agree, that the Omega Shield Proc is in third place - with MACO being the best proc and KHG coming in second.
One thing to keep in mind about MACO, while under fire (which is the same requirement as Omega's shield) you're looking at an additional 10 power to engines and any speed/turn rate advantages (which is a variable) that come with it.
Generally speaking you could be looking at 1 to 3 degrees of added turn rate.
Me neither.
There's also an inertia factor which helps reduce the powersliding effect on cruisers carriers etc.
Also, the Omega shields have much higher regen than the KHG. The buffer only ends up being good if you have ways of quickly refilling it that aren't dependant on the regen. In other words higher regen shields are better than cap for protracted fights and even hit and run so you can more quickly recover and re-engage.
There are a lot of ways to keep the power level of engines up where the MACO +10 power isn't as helpful as the proc when you're already got high engine power levels.
For example, if you're in PvP and withdrawing from a high dps ff situation you put full power to engines and or use an engine batt, you'll be at max engine power the Omega proc boosts it even further. You may not even need to evasives and are able to quickly turn and fight again when the enemy stop chasing and picks a new target.
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My opinion is, and always has been, that making the 3 pc set bonus a power is a flawed concept and needs to be reworked. Although they're useful for some builds, for most people they're very conditional and not worth the investment.
The 3 pc MACO, for example, could easily be replaced by equipping the Magnetometric Generator console from the Koro't'inga or a lock box, the Borg tractor beam may drain power but it's cooldown is magnitudes longer then the T1 tractor beam power. Neither is worth equipping a full set for.
I'd like to see the sets rebalanced and a proper 3 pc passive set bonus added. Something that people would be excited to work towards. The abilities could be added to an 'Optional' console for each set, something that keeps the theme but is totally optional. Lets face it, they're just glorified console abilities anyways, lets place them where they belong.
The only time I've ever seen the set abilities in action was when they had an effect on the outcome of STFs - Tractoring Denatra (before she was immune) and Pulsing the Generators (before THEY were immune).
Without this purpose, the abilities are completely lackluster. Granted, with a MASSIVE change to their cool down (like 50%) or magnitude they may be more attractive, but even then I doubt they'll be popular.
Also, the Omega shields have much higher regen than the KHG. The buffer only ends up being good if you have ways of quickly refilling it that aren't dependant on the regen. In other words higher regen shields are better than cap for protracted fights and even hit and run so you can more quickly recover and re-engage.
Well, I don't think the question is purely one of Cap vs. Regen.
The KHG proc, I find at least, is pretty interesting in what could be a considered a regen buffer in that it creates as it forces the shooter to require the target.
I'll admit that's hard to quantify and would require some pretty dedicated testing to come to any kind of clear statement on one vs. the other.
There are a lot of ways to keep the power level of engines up where the MACO +10 power isn't as helpful as the proc when you're already got high engine power levels.
I'll test and get back to this at some point, I'm pretty sure even running 75/80 engine power, adding another 10 on top of that will result in at least a degree or two of turn rate.
The major benefit is that +10 power is not just to engines, it's also to Shields (and every subsystem for that matter) - which means unless you have Shields maxed out MACO will be able to close the regen gap a bit (not all the way) while simultaneously adding more resistance to it's already higher resistance value.
That, and also being Resilient, are why I tend to consider the MACO shield the best available, and KHG in second for survivability.
Omega's proc possibly gives enough extra maneuverability to an already nimble Escort to help keep out of DHC arcs, but I'm not confident that could be said for slower ships.
While this is interesting, I'm going to try and stick to the main point of this thread which is that the MACO / KHG / Omega set bonuses/powers are what is at half of the equation in why the borg procs were so valued (the other half being the sheer power of the borg set procs).
Not sure why the thread I started in PvP forum was moved here?
Well don't ask too many questions. I saw this was moved and started a thread asking why they keep moving them and got a insta-fraction. It was down in a 2-3 minutes and I got a warning not to talk on the forums about how they're moderated. They seemed to take it way more serious than the death threats against me that I reported last week.
I'll test and get back to this at some point, I'm pretty sure even running 75/80 engine power, adding another 10 on top of that will result in at least a degree or two of turn rate.
Yes, turn rate is affected by engine power. But, you also have to consider that you're getting a speed boost as well.
So, any increase in turn rate is going to be counteracted by the increase in speed. You may turn faster, but the increased speed will also increasing the arc of your turn.
You're right, I've been eyeing the 3xturn, speed hyper engines and forgot about the 3xspeed turn hyper engines. Also, I've been thinking of waiting to see what the elite specs look like. Still, as far as set engines go there isn't one that's faster.
Even still, the Fleet hyper-impulse engines [turn]x3 [spd] is slightly faster than the MK XI Omega engines (probably the same for mk XII).
About .5 impulse more, if I recall. But, that might be because I'm comparing a MK XI Omega engine versus a MK XII Fleet engine, and the MK XII may get a bonus.
Yes, turn rate is affected by engine power. But, you also have to consider that you're getting a speed boost as well.
So, any increase in turn rate is going to be counteracted by the increase in speed. You may turn faster, but the increased speed will also increasing the arc of your turn.
I still don't think that puts Omega any better than third place vs. MACO & KHG shields.
The only thing the Omega shield really has going for it overall, is that the Omega set bonuses are decent - even if I think Grav Anchor either has too long of a cooldown or too short of a duration to justify bothering with all 3.
Yes, turn rate is affected by engine power. But, you also have to consider that you're getting a speed boost as well.
So, any increase in turn rate is going to be counteracted by the increase in speed. You may turn faster, but the increased speed will also increasing the arc of your turn.
UPDATE:
From the patch notes
3 Piece Set bonuses on MACO and OMEGA have had their cooldowns reduced from 180 seconds to 120 seconds.
That's a good start.
I still think MACO's 2 piece needs "something", maybe an EPS boost, or simply a much higher Power Insulators bonus than it currently has - or someway to make the 5% rech bonus more useful.
Not sure if KHG is getting a more significant revamp than originally mentioned or was just left out of the patch notes.
After testing the MACO/Omega Force sets, I really just don't like the bonuses. I think I'll just stick to the Retro Borg set, even with the crappy shield. Is there going to be a mark XII version of the Retro set (or whatever it's called now)?
After testing the MACO/Omega Force sets, I really just don't like the bonuses. I think I'll just stick to the Retro Borg set, even with the crappy shield. Is there going to be a mark XII version of the Retro set (or whatever it's called now)?
Well, Tet Glider is in a decent place.
Bort mentioned he had some ideas on how he might adjust it, but I'm not sure if he is still looking at that or if we'll see that on Tribble soon.
The 3rd set bonus power at 120s is decent as well.
MACO still needs a lot of help IMO.
The 2nd power still doesn't do very much, the PI bonus is small and the MACO engines suffer from being combat engines. At the very least they need to be changed to standard impulse engines.
The 3rd set bonus at 120s again, is useable. He mentioned that it would shut down Engines and Weapons as well, but I don't think that's on tribble yet either.
Bort, is it intended that the KHG engine only give their power bonuses depending on how much power you currently have in any particular subsystem?
Meaning, the more power you have in that subsystem the less power you actually receive.
This means if you have 100 weapons power, the KHG engine grants 0 power to your ship.
Considering how small these power bonuses are, in the grand scheme of things, is this actually necessary?
This seems exceptionally weak imo.
I second this. Seriously KHG engine could be better if it was not giving so little because of the your current power levels. I get a little less than 3 power from this engine because weapons are 125. Shield gets 1.1, and aux gets 1.6 power from the engine so I usually just replace it with borg that gives me +5 to engine power. However I would use KHG engine more if those power bonuses stayed at 3.8 instead of being dynamic.
AEGIS set needs to be upgraded to mk 12 and improved. I love its looks, but its weaker than khg and maco in elite stfs.
Easy boost for the set engines, make them all hyper-impulse. Everything else is a waste and produces suboptimal performance in a endgame ship. You power levels will be so high that combat and impulse engines will not get any benefit at all.
I still think MACO's 2 piece needs "something", maybe an EPS boost, or simply a much higher Power Insulators bonus than it currently has - or someway to make the 5% rech bonus more useful.
I gave a suggestion in this thread for the MACO 2-piece set.
Increase the PI to +30 and add +30 to Inertial Dampeners, since this MACO set is more of a defensive set than anything else.
Would it be possible to add a T5 instant re-modulator device to the T5 Omega rewards? You know, something that has the same effect as the Instant re-modulator set bonus but doesn't require us to use the KHG/OMEGA/MACO sets?
The sets are fine as is, but with the addition of Elite Fleet ground equipment I'd like to have the option of not using the set in STFs, in exchange for using a device slot again. Not necessary but it would be nice to have.
yes that would be very nice.
Maybe once you unlocked a mk12 ground set it unlocks the special remodulator as device. So we are free to use the weapons we like.
Comments
That is wrong, it was before the fleet engines came along hyper-impulse with [spd]x3 [turn]. is a lot faster then the omega engine.
It's you thats making the bad assumptions.
Look on an escort your allready fast enough to cap your defence so it is of no use whatsoever. So to start with thats a whole very popular class that aren't getting asny benefit out of this. Most cruisers won't get enough of a boost to offset the lost resistances and power boosts. Science are one of the few i see getting a benefit out of this. Their getting enough of a boost to defence, (and allready evade enough damage), that the boost may in specific cases outweigh the resistance boost becuase the base % of damage their taking after evashion deductions is low enough to make extra defece better than resistances.
It's possible to double the 99 points w/2 consoles and a deflector or 3 consoles depending on the ship sci console layout. Earlier in the thread I listed the damage it does. It's not insignificant and it's basically free for using 2 parts.
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You're right, I've been eyeing the 3xturn, speed hyper engines and forgot about the 3xspeed turn hyper engines. Also, I've been thinking of waiting to see what the elite specs look like. Still, as far as set engines go there isn't one that's faster.
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What bad assumption have I made?
I use the engines and shields on Raiders, Cruisers, Carriers, and Destroyers w/Tac and Sci Captains for both PvE and PvP.
There's more to engine speed than defensive value bonus. There's piloting and positioning and being able to move from point A to point B in as fast a manner as possible in and out of full impulse.
Further the shield proc boosts more than speed they also boost turnrate and inertia values.
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I HAD to mark this one.
I have enough EDC's to buy the complete 3 piece mk11 set to replace the AEGIS (which works GREAT in anything but ESTF's) and as I don't run torps or mines the REMAN and Omega bonus is useless to me.
But I gotta know- is that 3rd KHG power really unavailable while under red alert ? IF it is then the set is useless and I'll likely cash out my EDC's, rare and proto salvage as I'm going to opt-out of the entire Romulan gear store BS.
Awoken Dead
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You're still one just one player - you're completely welcome to your opinion on the Omega shield proc and I'm willing to hear you out on it.
Ultimately though I think, and I believe many others would agree, that the Omega Shield Proc is in third place - with MACO being the best proc and KHG coming in second.
One thing to keep in mind about MACO, while under fire (which is the same requirement as Omega's shield) you're looking at an additional 10 power to engines and any speed/turn rate advantages (which is a variable) that come with it.
Generally speaking you could be looking at 1 to 3 degrees of added turn rate.
Me neither.
There's also an inertia factor which helps reduce the powersliding effect on cruisers carriers etc.
Also, the Omega shields have much higher regen than the KHG. The buffer only ends up being good if you have ways of quickly refilling it that aren't dependant on the regen. In other words higher regen shields are better than cap for protracted fights and even hit and run so you can more quickly recover and re-engage.
There are a lot of ways to keep the power level of engines up where the MACO +10 power isn't as helpful as the proc when you're already got high engine power levels.
For example, if you're in PvP and withdrawing from a high dps ff situation you put full power to engines and or use an engine batt, you'll be at max engine power the Omega proc boosts it even further. You may not even need to evasives and are able to quickly turn and fight again when the enemy stop chasing and picks a new target.
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The 3 pc MACO, for example, could easily be replaced by equipping the Magnetometric Generator console from the Koro't'inga or a lock box, the Borg tractor beam may drain power but it's cooldown is magnitudes longer then the T1 tractor beam power. Neither is worth equipping a full set for.
I'd like to see the sets rebalanced and a proper 3 pc passive set bonus added. Something that people would be excited to work towards. The abilities could be added to an 'Optional' console for each set, something that keeps the theme but is totally optional. Lets face it, they're just glorified console abilities anyways, lets place them where they belong.
The only time I've ever seen the set abilities in action was when they had an effect on the outcome of STFs - Tractoring Denatra (before she was immune) and Pulsing the Generators (before THEY were immune).
Without this purpose, the abilities are completely lackluster. Granted, with a MASSIVE change to their cool down (like 50%) or magnitude they may be more attractive, but even then I doubt they'll be popular.
That's true.
Well, I don't think the question is purely one of Cap vs. Regen.
The KHG proc, I find at least, is pretty interesting in what could be a considered a regen buffer in that it creates as it forces the shooter to require the target.
I'll admit that's hard to quantify and would require some pretty dedicated testing to come to any kind of clear statement on one vs. the other.
I'll test and get back to this at some point, I'm pretty sure even running 75/80 engine power, adding another 10 on top of that will result in at least a degree or two of turn rate.
The major benefit is that +10 power is not just to engines, it's also to Shields (and every subsystem for that matter) - which means unless you have Shields maxed out MACO will be able to close the regen gap a bit (not all the way) while simultaneously adding more resistance to it's already higher resistance value.
That, and also being Resilient, are why I tend to consider the MACO shield the best available, and KHG in second for survivability.
Omega's proc possibly gives enough extra maneuverability to an already nimble Escort to help keep out of DHC arcs, but I'm not confident that could be said for slower ships.
While this is interesting, I'm going to try and stick to the main point of this thread which is that the MACO / KHG / Omega set bonuses/powers are what is at half of the equation in why the borg procs were so valued (the other half being the sheer power of the borg set procs).
Bort, is it intended that the KHG engine only give their power bonuses depending on how much power you currently have in any particular subsystem?
Meaning, the more power you have in that subsystem the less power you actually receive.
This means if you have 100 weapons power, the KHG engine grants 0 power to your ship.
Considering how small these power bonuses are, in the grand scheme of things, is this actually necessary?
This seems exceptionally weak imo.
Well don't ask too many questions. I saw this was moved and started a thread asking why they keep moving them and got a insta-fraction. It was down in a 2-3 minutes and I got a warning not to talk on the forums about how they're moderated. They seemed to take it way more serious than the death threats against me that I reported last week.
So, any increase in turn rate is going to be counteracted by the increase in speed. You may turn faster, but the increased speed will also increasing the arc of your turn.
About .5 impulse more, if I recall. But, that might be because I'm comparing a MK XI Omega engine versus a MK XII Fleet engine, and the MK XII may get a bonus.
I still don't think that puts Omega any better than third place vs. MACO & KHG shields.
The only thing the Omega shield really has going for it overall, is that the Omega set bonuses are decent - even if I think Grav Anchor either has too long of a cooldown or too short of a duration to justify bothering with all 3.
UPDATE:
From the patch notes
That's a good start.
I still think MACO's 2 piece needs "something", maybe an EPS boost, or simply a much higher Power Insulators bonus than it currently has - or someway to make the 5% rech bonus more useful.
Not sure if KHG is getting a more significant revamp than originally mentioned or was just left out of the patch notes.
My character Tsin'xing
Well, Tet Glider is in a decent place.
Bort mentioned he had some ideas on how he might adjust it, but I'm not sure if he is still looking at that or if we'll see that on Tribble soon.
The 3rd set bonus power at 120s is decent as well.
MACO still needs a lot of help IMO.
The 2nd power still doesn't do very much, the PI bonus is small and the MACO engines suffer from being combat engines. At the very least they need to be changed to standard impulse engines.
The 3rd set bonus at 120s again, is useable. He mentioned that it would shut down Engines and Weapons as well, but I don't think that's on tribble yet either.
I second this. Seriously KHG engine could be better if it was not giving so little because of the your current power levels. I get a little less than 3 power from this engine because weapons are 125. Shield gets 1.1, and aux gets 1.6 power from the engine so I usually just replace it with borg that gives me +5 to engine power. However I would use KHG engine more if those power bonuses stayed at 3.8 instead of being dynamic.
AEGIS set needs to be upgraded to mk 12 and improved. I love its looks, but its weaker than khg and maco in elite stfs.
Increase the PI to +30 and add +30 to Inertial Dampeners, since this MACO set is more of a defensive set than anything else.
The sets are fine as is, but with the addition of Elite Fleet ground equipment I'd like to have the option of not using the set in STFs, in exchange for using a device slot again. Not necessary but it would be nice to have.
Maybe once you unlocked a mk12 ground set it unlocks the special remodulator as device. So we are free to use the weapons we like.
I think that's a solid suggestion.