That might be OK if you were the ones paying us. Don't forget the a business only exists if it has customers. Drive away the customers with douchebag moves and bad attitudes and you have no business. We're only here while it's fun. If you make it no longer fun then off we go.
Cost dil to get the free packs - I just won't get any. I'll probably have to start leveling alts and stealing their packs. Or just stop caring about my fleet's base. I mean, I want the Fleet Nova, sure, and the other main contributor want's a Fleet Akira, but not enough to spend even more dil we don't have on getting the random doffs in the first place.
Cost more dil to get better doffs - I DEFINITELY won't bother with the system anymore.
No credit for the 3 STF mk xii sets I have on my main, and less dil rewards - I'll just stop running STF's, which is a pity, as they are the way of earning dil I most enjoy.
Sensing a pattern here?
These changes are not good. Really it would be better to slash the dil reward from the current ways and add a low level dil reward to everything.
Bottom line, enough changes like this go through and I'll just have to stop playing. If it isn't fun anymore, or I'm forced to bypass the types of gameplay I do enjoy, why spend any money on it?
Strange to think that this heavy-handed sweeping under the rug of long-time players concerns is being championed on the forums by someone that once fought for player compensation for the Emblems/Dilithium debacle.
I guess that Jeremy doesn't work at Cryptic any more huh?
Strange to think that this heavy-handed sweeping under the rug of long-time players concerns is being championed on the forums by someone that once fought for player compensation for the Emblems/Dilithium debacle.
I guess that Jeremy doesn't work at Cryptic any more huh?
So...
...if one of the biggest proponents of supporting long-term players, and really the players in general, is on what is perceived as the "bad side" of this argument...
...is it at all possible that, being on the inside, he knows how this works better than any of us on the outside, and that it's not going to be nearly as bad as people seem to think?
In fairness, the other side of this coin would suggest that he's already tried to fight it and has been told pretty flatly, "No." Both are quite likely.
You're giving him far too much credit. You didn't see him on TTS yesterday talking down to us and not even listening to any of our concerns.
I do not buy that there is some evil bogeyman in the closet telling him or any of the others what they can and can't say. They've made these decisions and the question now is, do we choose to live with them?
If your rose-tinted glasses aren't off about STO by now, re-read the OP and rethink it.
Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it! No, seriously! ...Why are you laughing so hard?
Firstly I find it strange that Jeremy had to champion the concerns of the player base back then - after all, without its players, this game ceases to be.
Secondly, the fact that there's no longer anyone left at Cryptic prepared to champion the concerns of the players means that STO's best days would appear to be behind it.
Firstly I find it strange that Jeremy had to champion the concerns of the player base back then - after all, without its players, this game ceases to be.
Secondly, the fact that there's no longer anyone left at Cryptic prepared to champion the concerns of the players means that STO's best days would appear to be behind it.
A "player Advocate" is only unlocked at T-5 and costs 200k dilithium.
Maybe. I only know him through reputation and definitely wasn't on during this instance in TTS.
But I do know his reputation would suggest that he never wasn't trying to do right by the players, even if his new perspective caused some clash between what he though people wanted and what the realities were.
Point being, if he did outright shut down concerns, I'm sure there's a reason. Whether or not it's a good reason, I have no idea.
My attitude is, give people a headstart on the farming. I agree that with new rewards being added, you can't say, "Here! Start at Tier 5!"
But you could say, I dunno:
*tons of neat compensatory ideas*
If I'm remembering my history correctly (not always true, correct me if I'm wrong), it was Borticus that originally went to bat for us on the matter of the Vet BOffs to give us something to compensate for those whose conversion would be shanked by diminishing returns at a certain dilithium level. Such a BOff wasn't originally intended.
The STF grind is identical to the mark grind of old. It seems fair that at least some accompanying compensation for those who've put forth the effort can be reached instead of just saying 'You don't need to bother with getting the sets now. That's your compensation!'
That doesn't even factor in the folks who did not manage to complete their mkXII sets.
Jebus this thread's moving fast. Something I could've replied to is four pages back just from a matter of ten hours.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
You people are being vicious, short-sighted and unproductive.
The entirety of Cryptic is our advocate - they're making a Star Trek MMO that we generally enjoy playing. And without passionate paying customers like us, they have to stop making it. And on top of that, they allow us to play for ABSOLUTELY FREE if we want. Sure, they need us to pay in order to stay afloat, but nothing in the Reputation system is a forced pay wall. Everything being complained about is being blown completely out of proportion.
Most of these complaints about the cost of the Reputation system revolve around Dilithium. Which is Time. If you don't have enough Dilithium, then just SLOW DOWN and wait, and you will. All Dilithium is, is a "you can't have it until you put in the time" gate. And complaining about it just makes you sound like a bunch of entitled, spoiled kids, that want their toys immediately because you can see them on the shelf.
So what if it takes 2, 3, or even 6 months to cap out a Reputation and earn the Dilithium-purchased gear rewards. Aren't you going to be playing this game that long from now? I know I am, so what's the freakin' rush? And if you're not, then why should your immediate needs eclipse the long-term need for STO to have a healthy population that is encouraged to continue logging in?
Here's a more constructive way to present some feedback:
Dear Cryptic,
I feel the prices on the Dilithium-purchased Reputation gear should be lower. Consider factoring in the costs it takes to earn the Reputation XP that it takes to unlock that gear, and subtract that (or at least a large portion of it) from the final costs. You still get the Dilithium-based time gating that you're expecting, and we get more palatable pricing.
While you're at it, can you take another look at converting existing STF Accolades into Omega Marks? Many of us that have run STFs long enough to earn those, have already spent or destroyed the drops that came with those runs, and would like something to show for it. I recognize that may be considered "Double-Dipping" in some senses, and so would accept a lesser conversion rate than 1:1. It's really the thought that counts. Earn some good will with your Vets.
If I'm remembering my history correctly (not always true, correct me if I'm wrong), it was Borticus that originally went to bat for us on the matter of the Vet BOffs to give us something to compensate for those whose conversion would be shanked by diminishing returns at a certain dilithium level. Such a BOff wasn't originally intended.
The STF grind is identical to the mark grind of old. It seems fair that at least some accompanying compensation for those who've put forth the effort can be reached instead of just saying 'You don't need to bother with getting the sets now. That's your compensation!'
That doesn't even factor in the folks who did not manage to complete their mkXII sets.
Jebus this thread's moving fast. Something I could've replied to is four pages back just from a matter of ten hours.
Yes, it seems to have set off a firestorm of interest that these threads haven't seen in quite a while...
One wonders if perhaps maybe They (Cryptic) have finally hit upon the proverbial 'Straw'...
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
...if one of the biggest proponents of supporting long-term players, and really the players in general, is on what is perceived as the "bad side" of this argument...
...is it at all possible that, being on the inside, he knows how this works better than any of us on the outside, and that it's not going to be nearly as bad as people seem to think?
In fairness, the other side of this coin would suggest that he's already tried to fight it and has been told pretty flatly, "No." Both are quite likely.
Two problems with the rep system.
One they're changing all of our VALUEABLE STF currencies into UNVALUABLE currencies.
Two they're adding not only another grind to STF gear, but they're also mkaing it TWO grinds. One requires you to grind out Marks, Elite Marks and Dil. The other requires you grind out Marks and Dil AND wait for days and WEEKS while you work on single-person Starbase like fleet assignments.
My first point is proven true in my signature.
Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
You people are being vicious, short-sighted and unproductive.
The entirety of Cryptic is our advocate - they're making a Star Trek MMO that we generally enjoy playing. And without passionate paying customers like us, they have to stop making it. And on top of that, they allow us to play for ABSOLUTELY FREE if we want. Sure, they need us to pay in order to stay afloat, but nothing in the Reputation system is a forced pay wall. Everything being complained about is being blown completely out of proportion.
Most of these complaints about the cost of the Reputation system revolve around Dilithium. Which is Time. If you don't have enough Dilithium, then just SLOW DOWN and wait, and you will. All Dilithium is, is a "you can't have it until you put in the time" gate. And complaining about it just makes you sound like a bunch of entitled, spoiled kids, that want their toys immediately because you can see them on the shelf.
So what if it takes 2, 3, or even 6 months to cap out a Reputation and earn the Dilithium-purchased gear rewards. Aren't you going to be playing this game that long from now? I know I am, so what's the freakin' rush? And if you're not, then why should your immediate needs eclipse the long-term need for STO to have a healthy population that is encouraged to continue logging in?
Here's a more constructive way to present some feedback:
Dear Cryptic,
I feel the prices on the Dilithium-purchased Reputation gear should be lower. Consider factoring in the costs it takes to earn the Reputation XP that it takes to unlock that gear, and subtract that (or at least a large portion of it) from the final costs. You still get the Dilithium-based time gating that you're expecting, and we get more palatable pricing.
While you're at it, can you take another look at converting existing STF Accolades into Omega Marks? Many of us that have run STFs long enough to earn those, have already spent or destroyed the drops that came with those runs, and would like something to show for it. I recognize that may be considered "Double-Dipping" in some senses, and so would accept a lesser conversion rate than 1:1. It's really the thought that counts. Earn some good will with your Vets.
You appear to be new around here (?) ...you'll get it... ... eventually.
While I agree with you about the manner in which our thought's on this (or any) subject should be presented...
Just wait till we see what the actual conversion rate is...,
Based on previous experience..., I strongly suggest you don't hold your breath for anything near a 1:1 ratio.
Being <Cartman expletive> by Cryptic is a delightful experience because occasionally, They DO kiss you.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
You appear to be new around here (?) ...you'll get it... ... eventually.
Just wait till we see what the actual conversion rate is...,
Based on previous experience..., I strongly suggest you don't hold your breath for anything near a 1:1 ratio.
The actual conversion is going to be miniscule. They already value our STF currencies as being worth $0.00000000000.
Guess what though, page 35 I show how valuable all the STF currencies are and how through two different conversion methods, you can increase the value of EDCs.
Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
You people are being vicious, short-sighted and unproductive.
The entirety of Cryptic is our advocate - they're making a Star Trek MMO that we generally enjoy playing. And without passionate paying customers like us, they have to stop making it. And on top of that, they allow us to play for ABSOLUTELY FREE if we want. Sure, they need us to pay in order to stay afloat, but nothing in the Reputation system is a forced pay wall. Everything being complained about is being blown completely out of proportion.
Most of these complaints about the cost of the Reputation system revolve around Dilithium. Which is Time. If you don't have enough Dilithium, then just SLOW DOWN and wait, and you will. All Dilithium is, is a "you can't have it until you put in the time" gate. And complaining about it just makes you sound like a bunch of entitled, spoiled kids, that want their toys immediately because you can see them on the shelf.
So what if it takes 2, 3, or even 6 months to cap out a Reputation and earn the Dilithium-purchased gear rewards. Aren't you going to be playing this game that long from now? I know I am, so what's the freakin' rush? And if you're not, then why should your immediate needs eclipse the long-term need for STO to have a healthy population that is encouraged to continue logging in?
Here's a more constructive way to present some feedback:
Dear Cryptic,
I feel the prices on the Dilithium-purchased Reputation gear should be lower. Consider factoring in the costs it takes to earn the Reputation XP that it takes to unlock that gear, and subtract that (or at least a large portion of it) from the final costs. You still get the Dilithium-based time gating that you're expecting, and we get more palatable pricing.
While you're at it, can you take another look at converting existing STF Accolades into Omega Marks? Many of us that have run STFs long enough to earn those, have already spent or destroyed the drops that came with those runs, and would like something to show for it. I recognize that may be considered "Double-Dipping" in some senses, and so would accept a lesser conversion rate than 1:1. It's really the thought that counts. Earn some good will with your Vets.
Can't say I disagree entirely. I think much of the alarmism is uncalled for, but I do think that Cryptic is risking alienating customers through some of their costs.
Right now Cryptic is trying to find the place where supply meets demand- in other words, what is the most they can charge without driving away so many customers that it's a loss. Like any other responsible business or indivdiual, they are trying to maximize profits with minimal effort. That's fine and moral and will ultimately deliver the best experience for everyone. That having been said, in trying to find that ideal balance, they risk tipping the scales too far. Based on the reactions of this thread, they may be approaching that point. Of course, how many people are talk, and how many actually walk? I guess we'll see when the rubber meets the road.
I, for one, may not be happy about some of the changes, but I will tolerate them. I enjoy this game too much.
Relatively, yes. I started when STO made a F2P splash on Steam.
In that time, I've spent a grand total of $20 on this FREE TO PLAY game.
I feel like very few players that spend so little cash actually speak up on these forums, and it's a point of view that appears to be very different from the Lifetime Subscriber / More-Money-Than-Time crowd that tends to fill these forums with their entitlement-filled complaints. Just trying to spread some sanity around, offer a differing viewpoint.
Maybe it's naive to expect anything close to a 1:1 conversion, but I don't see why, logically. We know all we're getting is Omega Marks for the conversion, so we'll still have to spend our time, Dil, EC and who knows what else, to get thru the system. It doesn't serve Cryptic to recalculate the scaling of rewards offered by STFs. If a previous STF gave X reward, calculate the Mark value and work out from there, setting the Reputation numbers up based on that conversion rate. Considering the figures I've seen on Tribble, they seem to have done just that.
Maybe I'll be burned and disappointed. But even if I am, all I'm losing is time that I'll have to invest anyway. Time is the only real currency in any MMO, though. I learned to accept that a long time ago. Whether I spend it or not is my choice, based on whether or not I'm enjoying the game. And from what I've seen so far, there's no question that I am.
Can't say I disagree entirely. I think much of the alarmism is uncalled for, but I do think that Cryptic is risking alienating customers through some of their costs.
Right now Cryptic is trying to find the place where supply meets demand- in other words, what is the most they can charge without driving away so many customers that it's a loss. Like any other responsible business or indivdiual, they are trying to maximize profits with minimal effort. That's fine and moral and will ultimately deliver the best experience for everyone. That having been said, in trying to find that ideal balance, they risk tipping the scales too far. Based on the reactions of this thread, they may be approaching that point. Of course, how many people are talk, and how many actually walk? I guess we'll see when the rubber meets the road.
I, for one, may not be happy about some of the changes, but I will tolerate them. I enjoy this game too much.
Oh, I'm not going to leave, I'm going to relish in the fact that buying Zen is going to be cheaper with season 7 as Dil becomes more valuable.
The profit of Dil farmers is going to increase.
Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
I doubt you'll find this constructive, and this is far from a rage quit, but take me logging into MWO as a show of my confidence and a metric for what I will bear when it comes to how I employ my scant free time.
I'll be in this game tomorrow. My sanity can't take any more fleetbase grind so I only intend to space PvP till I pass out or the queue takes more than fifteen minutes.
You really should consider rewarding us for how we prefer play, (that includes raiders and PvPers). I most likely would have spent today's free time in your game if you did. Possibly punishing raiders by taking away a major source of in game currency is bad form and I hope you reconsider the move.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Well, at least I now know whose (overly rotund bottom) broke the camel's back. I mean some of this reads as (stir crazy bat dropping nuts.) Let me reduce my thoughts to a simple concept. I pay for fun game play rather than bland, intensive, penny grinds and in a game that's clearly "pay to progress" you no longer offer enough fun content in lieu of work outside of a Trek skin on a pretty browser game to justify the required pay outs. For me you have gone too far.
At this point I am honestly wondering if PWE is now the primary supplier of Dilithium on the exchange that we buy with ZEN. If that is indeed the case then all of these game changes to Dilithium acquisition and spending requirements make perfect business sense. However, they alienate me as a consumer in that I will not be taken advantage of by a (suited, miserly, business man with stray morals.)
You are supposed to be selling me a game to play. Not skinning the appearances of a game over what has become little more than a "soulless" money making grind mechanic. It's almost like you have set up a Pavlovian experiment since going F2P to see exactly how much we will tolerate spending for how little work on your part. I can't even buy a C-Store ship without knowing there will be a yet $5 dollars more Fleet Version in a couple of months.
How long before you start releasing "special fleet version 2" ships for $5 more on top of that? Don't even try to tell me never as I am actually watching what you really "do."
It's all become dishonest. You are offering the "illusion" of a game skined as a Trek fantasy trip when it is not. I can pay a flat $15 dollars a month to sub for a game like WOW, TSW, EVE, etc and get a game with all included content outside of vanity shirts and hats in the cash shop. I can go earn the best gear and items in game without having to buy outside game currency or milk someone else for it by way of Dilithium. I can go buy a copy of GW2 and never have to pay another dime to progress or earn game items.
What do you offer now in STO again? Grind item X only to pay you more and more real money to get the rewards I suposedly earned by playing?
Sad part of all these 43 pages of Rant is that nothing will change what the have planned.
Borticus has said plain and clear there is NO room for discussion already in one area.
The other sad part is that everyone says - oh we won't continue to play - BULL****
and they know that in their little prison shower room called holodeck - they will keep dropping the soap on the floor and most of the players will continue to bend over and pick it up. Including almost everyone posting here - me included.
<Dev> BorticusCryptic@BorticusCryptic: We're not granting -any- free rep, ever. If (great big IF) we decide that Accolades are meant to grant you progression, it will be in the form of Omega Marks.
Within that statement, there is still room for discussion in the form of additional conversion for Accolades. And if there's room for discussion there, then they're probably also willing to hear feedback on other topics as well. The only thing Cryptic doesn't appear to be budging on, is "Free Reputation XP" via conversion.
It's not entitlement. People aren't asking for things to be made easier or cost less but to not cost more than they currently do.
I may've missed it in this thread then... did somebody calculate the costs already? Do we know that costs are rising?
I'm talking at a fundamental timesink level. I know gear didn't cost Dilithium before, but it cost time which could've been spent earning Dilithium. It's the same thing in the end.
I play around 2 months so i am a fairly new player and as i am a fan of the Star Trek series and films i decided to try this game, especially from the moment it was f2p.
As i am over 40 years old and a gamer i have played a LOT of MMO's (and single player but these have a completely different philosophy) ,f2p and not f2p ones.
Here is what i like from this game:
The way you get free ships each 10 lvls (till 40)
The Fleets and mature players STO have
The fleet ships/items
The not forced pvp system. you want pvp you go to a qeue and that is it.
The missions,great way for a new player to learn how to play plus the story is great imho.
The doff system, a great way for players with not much time to earn ec and dil and to lvl theyr chars.
The advanced doff system , i mention it as advanced because after you learn and become an experienced player you start doing missions to get better quality doffs,MKII consoles, etc
The exchange, a paradise for players that do not want to pvp or do stf's all the time to earn money/spend their time.
What i don't like
The dil grinding you must do each day to get zen to buy ships/items/inv space/doff slots/chars etc, especially from the moment that you reach lvl 50 you must do a LOT of grinding each day to buy things so that you can keep your interest in the game.
The lock boxes with all the random things that you get.
The fleet mark system and the ridiculous amount of dil/doffs needed for each of projects.
Atm very few do the fleet pve's to earn fleet marks so from what i have seen so far it would be nice if earned fleet marks would be a bit higher or perhaps making the fleet pve's more "unique".
The very few options some careers have to play their ships.
From what i have seen so far 70% of the players play Tactical officers and 30% only are engineers and sci's.
Make the career paths more "unique" , bring FREE VA ships in the game and give the players more options to actually play the game and not grind, give subscribers more "goodies" like 10-20 master keys/months etc.
I understand that the f2p model needs players to buy zen but try to keep a balance...
Don't bring more "lucky items" (aka lock boxes) but bring more content and reward more the players that subscribe.
These are my thoughts of how to make this game better...
From most posts that i have seen the above things i wrote is the main reason why most players are angry about the dil changes.
Don't forget PWE and Cryptic the average player, make the game fun with lots of easy to obtain goodies and the average player will continue to support you.
I may've missed it in this thread then... did somebody calculate the costs already? Do we know that costs are rising?
I'm talking at a fundamental timesink level. I know gear didn't cost Dilithium before, but it cost time which could've been spent earning Dilithium. It's the same thing in the end.
Dilithium is a finite resource. You can only refine 8,000 of it a day. Whatever you use it for currently it can't be used for that if you want the sets. Extra time makes no difference if you already hit the cap. To get more dil would mean spending zen which is from real money.
Dilithium is a finite resource. You can only refine 8,000 of it a day. Whatever you use it for currently it can't be used for that if you want the sets. Extra time makes no difference if you already hit the cap. To get more dil would mean spending zen which is from real money.
What are you already spending 8,000 Dilithium a day on? Starbases? Why? And why are YOU spending that much, if you have fleet mates that are supposed to be contributing as well?
Within that statement, there is still room for discussion in the form of additional conversion for Accolades. And if there's room for discussion there, then they're probably also willing to hear feedback on other topics as well. The only thing Cryptic doesn't appear to be budging on, is "Free Reputation XP" via conversion.
Folks need to slow down and check your sources.
I think it would cool a lot of frustration and shed some haterade if they were to offer enough Omega marks to make it the vast majority of the way to the reputation point where you can start buying the STF gear, so most of the work to get there is already done. Yes, it would take some time, but I keep hearing about people who spend six months and never getting a single Mk XII drop anyway.
Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it might be worth it for Cryptic to at least consider it.
Personally I think that the STF stuff is small change compared to the potential impact of the DOff situation that everyone seems to have forgotten about (HAS everyone forgotten about it?), but that's just me, and that's thinking long-term instead of a few sets of gear per character.
I think it would cool a lot of frustration and shed some haterade if they were to offer enough Omega marks to make it the vast majority of the way to the reputation point where you can start buying the STF gear, so most of the work to get there is already done. Yes, it would take some time, but I keep hearing about people who spend six months and never getting a single Mk XII drop anyway.
Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it might be worth it for Cryptic to at least consider it.
Personally I think that the STF stuff is small change compared to the potential impact of the DOff situation that everyone seems to have forgotten about (HAS everyone forgotten about it?), but that's just me, and that's thinking long-term instead of a few sets of gear per character.
There are lots of other issues that are passing by - Investigate officer reports - and the console clicking issue - will it be remove? so take that 2 min 1440 dilth away?
The removal of free doffs from the academey and the MASSIVE increase in doff grinding price
5 common to 1 green - going from 10 dilth currently to 500 dilth
5 green to 1 blue - 50 current to 2500!!
5 blue to 1 purple 250 current to 5000!!
Plus there are lots of other changes that are lurking
Comments
That might be OK if you were the ones paying us. Don't forget the a business only exists if it has customers. Drive away the customers with douchebag moves and bad attitudes and you have no business. We're only here while it's fun. If you make it no longer fun then off we go.
Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt
Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt
Cost dil to get the free packs - I just won't get any. I'll probably have to start leveling alts and stealing their packs. Or just stop caring about my fleet's base. I mean, I want the Fleet Nova, sure, and the other main contributor want's a Fleet Akira, but not enough to spend even more dil we don't have on getting the random doffs in the first place.
Cost more dil to get better doffs - I DEFINITELY won't bother with the system anymore.
No credit for the 3 STF mk xii sets I have on my main, and less dil rewards - I'll just stop running STF's, which is a pity, as they are the way of earning dil I most enjoy.
Sensing a pattern here?
These changes are not good. Really it would be better to slash the dil reward from the current ways and add a low level dil reward to everything.
Bottom line, enough changes like this go through and I'll just have to stop playing. If it isn't fun anymore, or I'm forced to bypass the types of gameplay I do enjoy, why spend any money on it?
I guess that Jeremy doesn't work at Cryptic any more huh?
So...
...if one of the biggest proponents of supporting long-term players, and really the players in general, is on what is perceived as the "bad side" of this argument...
...is it at all possible that, being on the inside, he knows how this works better than any of us on the outside, and that it's not going to be nearly as bad as people seem to think?
In fairness, the other side of this coin would suggest that he's already tried to fight it and has been told pretty flatly, "No." Both are quite likely.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
I do not buy that there is some evil bogeyman in the closet telling him or any of the others what they can and can't say. They've made these decisions and the question now is, do we choose to live with them?
If your rose-tinted glasses aren't off about STO by now, re-read the OP and rethink it.
Secondly, the fact that there's no longer anyone left at Cryptic prepared to champion the concerns of the players means that STO's best days would appear to be behind it.
A "player Advocate" is only unlocked at T-5 and costs 200k dilithium.
Maybe. I only know him through reputation and definitely wasn't on during this instance in TTS.
But I do know his reputation would suggest that he never wasn't trying to do right by the players, even if his new perspective caused some clash between what he though people wanted and what the realities were.
Point being, if he did outright shut down concerns, I'm sure there's a reason. Whether or not it's a good reason, I have no idea.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
If I'm remembering my history correctly (not always true, correct me if I'm wrong), it was Borticus that originally went to bat for us on the matter of the Vet BOffs to give us something to compensate for those whose conversion would be shanked by diminishing returns at a certain dilithium level. Such a BOff wasn't originally intended.
The STF grind is identical to the mark grind of old. It seems fair that at least some accompanying compensation for those who've put forth the effort can be reached instead of just saying 'You don't need to bother with getting the sets now. That's your compensation!'
That doesn't even factor in the folks who did not manage to complete their mkXII sets.
Jebus this thread's moving fast. Something I could've replied to is four pages back just from a matter of ten hours.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
The entirety of Cryptic is our advocate - they're making a Star Trek MMO that we generally enjoy playing. And without passionate paying customers like us, they have to stop making it. And on top of that, they allow us to play for ABSOLUTELY FREE if we want. Sure, they need us to pay in order to stay afloat, but nothing in the Reputation system is a forced pay wall. Everything being complained about is being blown completely out of proportion.
Most of these complaints about the cost of the Reputation system revolve around Dilithium. Which is Time. If you don't have enough Dilithium, then just SLOW DOWN and wait, and you will. All Dilithium is, is a "you can't have it until you put in the time" gate. And complaining about it just makes you sound like a bunch of entitled, spoiled kids, that want their toys immediately because you can see them on the shelf.
So what if it takes 2, 3, or even 6 months to cap out a Reputation and earn the Dilithium-purchased gear rewards. Aren't you going to be playing this game that long from now? I know I am, so what's the freakin' rush? And if you're not, then why should your immediate needs eclipse the long-term need for STO to have a healthy population that is encouraged to continue logging in?
Here's a more constructive way to present some feedback:
Dear Cryptic,
I feel the prices on the Dilithium-purchased Reputation gear should be lower. Consider factoring in the costs it takes to earn the Reputation XP that it takes to unlock that gear, and subtract that (or at least a large portion of it) from the final costs. You still get the Dilithium-based time gating that you're expecting, and we get more palatable pricing.
While you're at it, can you take another look at converting existing STF Accolades into Omega Marks? Many of us that have run STFs long enough to earn those, have already spent or destroyed the drops that came with those runs, and would like something to show for it. I recognize that may be considered "Double-Dipping" in some senses, and so would accept a lesser conversion rate than 1:1. It's really the thought that counts. Earn some good will with your Vets.
Yes, it seems to have set off a firestorm of interest that these threads haven't seen in quite a while...
One wonders if perhaps maybe They (Cryptic) have finally hit upon the proverbial 'Straw'...
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Two problems with the rep system.
One they're changing all of our VALUEABLE STF currencies into UNVALUABLE currencies.
Two they're adding not only another grind to STF gear, but they're also mkaing it TWO grinds. One requires you to grind out Marks, Elite Marks and Dil. The other requires you grind out Marks and Dil AND wait for days and WEEKS while you work on single-person Starbase like fleet assignments.
My first point is proven true in my signature.
You appear to be new around here (?) ...you'll get it... ... eventually.
While I agree with you about the manner in which our thought's on this (or any) subject should be presented...
Just wait till we see what the actual conversion rate is...,
Based on previous experience..., I strongly suggest you don't hold your breath for anything near a 1:1 ratio.
Being <Cartman expletive> by Cryptic is a delightful experience because occasionally, They DO kiss you.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
The actual conversion is going to be miniscule. They already value our STF currencies as being worth $0.00000000000.
Guess what though, page 35 I show how valuable all the STF currencies are and how through two different conversion methods, you can increase the value of EDCs.
Can't say I disagree entirely. I think much of the alarmism is uncalled for, but I do think that Cryptic is risking alienating customers through some of their costs.
Right now Cryptic is trying to find the place where supply meets demand- in other words, what is the most they can charge without driving away so many customers that it's a loss. Like any other responsible business or indivdiual, they are trying to maximize profits with minimal effort. That's fine and moral and will ultimately deliver the best experience for everyone. That having been said, in trying to find that ideal balance, they risk tipping the scales too far. Based on the reactions of this thread, they may be approaching that point. Of course, how many people are talk, and how many actually walk? I guess we'll see when the rubber meets the road.
I, for one, may not be happy about some of the changes, but I will tolerate them. I enjoy this game too much.
Relatively, yes. I started when STO made a F2P splash on Steam.
In that time, I've spent a grand total of $20 on this FREE TO PLAY game.
I feel like very few players that spend so little cash actually speak up on these forums, and it's a point of view that appears to be very different from the Lifetime Subscriber / More-Money-Than-Time crowd that tends to fill these forums with their entitlement-filled complaints. Just trying to spread some sanity around, offer a differing viewpoint.
Maybe it's naive to expect anything close to a 1:1 conversion, but I don't see why, logically. We know all we're getting is Omega Marks for the conversion, so we'll still have to spend our time, Dil, EC and who knows what else, to get thru the system. It doesn't serve Cryptic to recalculate the scaling of rewards offered by STFs. If a previous STF gave X reward, calculate the Mark value and work out from there, setting the Reputation numbers up based on that conversion rate. Considering the figures I've seen on Tribble, they seem to have done just that.
Maybe I'll be burned and disappointed. But even if I am, all I'm losing is time that I'll have to invest anyway. Time is the only real currency in any MMO, though. I learned to accept that a long time ago. Whether I spend it or not is my choice, based on whether or not I'm enjoying the game. And from what I've seen so far, there's no question that I am.
Oh, I'm not going to leave, I'm going to relish in the fact that buying Zen is going to be cheaper with season 7 as Dil becomes more valuable.
The profit of Dil farmers is going to increase.
I'll be in this game tomorrow. My sanity can't take any more fleetbase grind so I only intend to space PvP till I pass out or the queue takes more than fifteen minutes.
You really should consider rewarding us for how we prefer play, (that includes raiders and PvPers). I most likely would have spent today's free time in your game if you did. Possibly punishing raiders by taking away a major source of in game currency is bad form and I hope you reconsider the move.
At this point I am honestly wondering if PWE is now the primary supplier of Dilithium on the exchange that we buy with ZEN. If that is indeed the case then all of these game changes to Dilithium acquisition and spending requirements make perfect business sense. However, they alienate me as a consumer in that I will not be taken advantage of by a (suited, miserly, business man with stray morals.)
You are supposed to be selling me a game to play. Not skinning the appearances of a game over what has become little more than a "soulless" money making grind mechanic. It's almost like you have set up a Pavlovian experiment since going F2P to see exactly how much we will tolerate spending for how little work on your part. I can't even buy a C-Store ship without knowing there will be a yet $5 dollars more Fleet Version in a couple of months.
How long before you start releasing "special fleet version 2" ships for $5 more on top of that? Don't even try to tell me never as I am actually watching what you really "do."
It's all become dishonest. You are offering the "illusion" of a game skined as a Trek fantasy trip when it is not. I can pay a flat $15 dollars a month to sub for a game like WOW, TSW, EVE, etc and get a game with all included content outside of vanity shirts and hats in the cash shop. I can go earn the best gear and items in game without having to buy outside game currency or milk someone else for it by way of Dilithium. I can go buy a copy of GW2 and never have to pay another dime to progress or earn game items.
What do you offer now in STO again? Grind item X only to pay you more and more real money to get the rewards I suposedly earned by playing?
Pfffttt.... (Bad Language.)
I am about to do a STOked. O.o
Borticus has said plain and clear there is NO room for discussion already in one area.
The other sad part is that everyone says - oh we won't continue to play - BULL****
and they know that in their little prison shower room called holodeck - they will keep dropping the soap on the floor and most of the players will continue to bend over and pick it up. Including almost everyone posting here - me included.
That's the bottom line!
(edited to be a bit more accurate)
Where's the reference for this?
I found a transcript of his TTS talk over on the STO subreddit. Here's the only line where he's adamant about "the way things are":
Within that statement, there is still room for discussion in the form of additional conversion for Accolades. And if there's room for discussion there, then they're probably also willing to hear feedback on other topics as well. The only thing Cryptic doesn't appear to be budging on, is "Free Reputation XP" via conversion.
Folks need to slow down and check your sources.
Ahh yes, the word that gets thrown around nowadays whenever someone gives a differing point of view.
It's not entitlement. People aren't asking for things to be made easier or cost less but to not cost more than they currently do.
I may've missed it in this thread then... did somebody calculate the costs already? Do we know that costs are rising?
I'm talking at a fundamental timesink level. I know gear didn't cost Dilithium before, but it cost time which could've been spent earning Dilithium. It's the same thing in the end.
As i am over 40 years old and a gamer i have played a LOT of MMO's (and single player but these have a completely different philosophy) ,f2p and not f2p ones.
Here is what i like from this game:
The way you get free ships each 10 lvls (till 40)
The Fleets and mature players STO have
The fleet ships/items
The not forced pvp system. you want pvp you go to a qeue and that is it.
The missions,great way for a new player to learn how to play plus the story is great imho.
The doff system, a great way for players with not much time to earn ec and dil and to lvl theyr chars.
The advanced doff system , i mention it as advanced because after you learn and become an experienced player you start doing missions to get better quality doffs,MKII consoles, etc
The exchange, a paradise for players that do not want to pvp or do stf's all the time to earn money/spend their time.
What i don't like
The dil grinding you must do each day to get zen to buy ships/items/inv space/doff slots/chars etc, especially from the moment that you reach lvl 50 you must do a LOT of grinding each day to buy things so that you can keep your interest in the game.
The lock boxes with all the random things that you get.
The fleet mark system and the ridiculous amount of dil/doffs needed for each of projects.
Atm very few do the fleet pve's to earn fleet marks so from what i have seen so far it would be nice if earned fleet marks would be a bit higher or perhaps making the fleet pve's more "unique".
The very few options some careers have to play their ships.
From what i have seen so far 70% of the players play Tactical officers and 30% only are engineers and sci's.
Make the career paths more "unique" , bring FREE VA ships in the game and give the players more options to actually play the game and not grind, give subscribers more "goodies" like 10-20 master keys/months etc.
I understand that the f2p model needs players to buy zen but try to keep a balance...
Don't bring more "lucky items" (aka lock boxes) but bring more content and reward more the players that subscribe.
These are my thoughts of how to make this game better...
From most posts that i have seen the above things i wrote is the main reason why most players are angry about the dil changes.
Don't forget PWE and Cryptic the average player, make the game fun with lots of easy to obtain goodies and the average player will continue to support you.
Dilithium is a finite resource. You can only refine 8,000 of it a day. Whatever you use it for currently it can't be used for that if you want the sets. Extra time makes no difference if you already hit the cap. To get more dil would mean spending zen which is from real money.
What are you already spending 8,000 Dilithium a day on? Starbases? Why? And why are YOU spending that much, if you have fleet mates that are supposed to be contributing as well?
I think it would cool a lot of frustration and shed some haterade if they were to offer enough Omega marks to make it the vast majority of the way to the reputation point where you can start buying the STF gear, so most of the work to get there is already done. Yes, it would take some time, but I keep hearing about people who spend six months and never getting a single Mk XII drop anyway.
Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it might be worth it for Cryptic to at least consider it.
Personally I think that the STF stuff is small change compared to the potential impact of the DOff situation that everyone seems to have forgotten about (HAS everyone forgotten about it?), but that's just me, and that's thinking long-term instead of a few sets of gear per character.
There are lots of other issues that are passing by - Investigate officer reports - and the console clicking issue - will it be remove? so take that 2 min 1440 dilth away?
The removal of free doffs from the academey and the MASSIVE increase in doff grinding price
5 common to 1 green - going from 10 dilth currently to 500 dilth
5 green to 1 blue - 50 current to 2500!!
5 blue to 1 purple 250 current to 5000!!
Plus there are lots of other changes that are lurking