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Skyrocketing Costs and Gear Nerfing Threaten to Force Me Out

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  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    That's actually not how I read it.

    If you already have the gear you start at tier 4, working on tier 5.

    Whereas if you are new you start at tier 1 so veterans are skipping 4 levels of grinding.


    As interesing as it is to discuss the price I am also curious about the actual merchandise, we are talking about the price of a product we don't even know.
    As in that's going to weigh even heavilier on the fairness of the cost.

    Like I think it's great they introduced fleet projects and gear just for me personally the cost/benefit is at a huge deficit.

    Luckily I enjoy playing in itself albeit if it's just one new ground stf and the romulan zone is a classic go kill 30 npcs grind festival I am probably not going to enjoy it overly much.
    But what it comes down to is, what is the actual reward like. So if anyone knows anything and can say something about it would be great.

    About the doff now costing dilithium I still say it has to be related to fleet projects progessing too fast or maybe their own internal development too slowly.

    I strongly believe that their in-come IS from subscribers and people buying lockboxes and recently LTS.

    But yeah it's going to kill the doff system for me; right now if I invest say 10 million on a good day I can get a 30% chance of a good item @ 1 million EDC mission entry fee.
    That's a 70 % chance of failure witn the best gear after you invest 11 million...
    How much dilithium am I ready to pay for a 70 % chance of failure ? Not a whole lot.

    I suggest we do a memorial service for the doff system on launch day and until then you fleet people need to farm doff packs and doff assigments like there is no tomorrow.
  • kelmorbranonkelmorbranon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    erictesla wrote: »
    Hmm...I think this sums it up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA18gjrZ7vw

    BAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
    Well said.
    "If your conscience is bothering you, you should sooth it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the ENTIRE Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, & the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I call that a bargain." - Elim Garak
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    vestereng wrote: »
    That's actually not how I read it.

    If you already have the gear you start at tier 4, working on tier 5.

    Whereas if you are new you start at tier 1 so veterans are skipping 4 levels of grinding.

    Not true. Confirmed by Jeremy last night.

    If you have unspent EDC or salvage, they become marks. You still need the dilithium and the DOffs and other inputs. You still have the project timers. You still start at zero.

    Jeremy said it would be "double-dipping" to award players progress based on their gear and that everyone starts at zero and that the ONLY credit you get will come from unspent STF currencies.
  • matteo716maikaimatteo716maikai Member Posts: 823
    edited October 2012
    Nice to see pve getting screwed as badly as pvp. -thumbs up-
  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Nice to see pve getting screwed as badly as pvp. -thumbs up-

    How is PvE getting "screwed"?
    http://mmo-economics.com - analysing the economic interactions in MMOs.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Nice to see pve getting screwed as badly as pvp. -thumbs up-

    In my mind PvP is being blissfully ignored! Believe me, you don't want them to turn their attention to it and actively destroy it as they try to squeeze some cash out of it.
  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Not true. Confirmed by Jeremy last night.

    If you have unspent EDC or salvage, they become marks. You still need the dilithium and the DOffs and other inputs. You still have the project timers. You still start at zero.

    Jeremy said it would be "double-dipping" to award players progress based on their gear and that everyone starts at zero and that the ONLY credit you get will come from unspent STF currencies.

    Well far be it from me to say anything negative about a developer but I am pretty sure someone came in this thread yesterday and said veterans start at tier 4.

    Anyway this sort of relates to what I just posted about in your other thread about the acutal rewards in oppose to the cost, what are they, are they worth it, worth anything.
    But I guess you can answer that there if you have the time and you know what they are.

    While I don't agree with asking people to refarm the same maps they played for a year I don't see an alternative for them.
    Putting you at zero is the only way to stall you really. If they did put you at the end of the line the whole point of s.7 goes out the window as you are already done with it.

    Should they relase new maps and new gear yes but since they don't have the oppertunity I don't see any other way than resetting everyone.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Do all Academy missions get a dilithium cost on them?

    Like the engineer cadre, the tactical, civil, etc, or only the junior pack that's sellable on Exchange?
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    My attitude is, give people a headstart on the farming. I agree that with new rewards being added, you can't say, "Here! Start at Tier 5!"

    But you could say, I dunno:

    - Here: People with Mk X set start at T1. People with Mk XI set start at T2. People with Mk XII set start at T3.

    OR

    - We'll award additional Omega marks for all of the gear accolades.

    OR

    - We'll break out the Veteran BOffs for people who had a set before the change, one for each set they owned.

    OR

    - We'll toss you a Reinforcement DOff pack for each accolade.

    OR

    - We'll toss anyone who had at least one set of Mk XI or better 20 lockbox keys. These keys will be bound, so you can't sell them and are claimable once per account but enjoy this value of over $20 in opening lockboxes, on us. Sorry for the inconvenience but we appreciate your dedication and think you'll like the new system if you keep an open mind.
  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    lol

    Well it's sort of like that scene from 28 weeks later where they get a code red, it's a helluva lot easier to just shoot everyone.

    But I agree with you totally, it's crazy talk to ask people to go grind the same maps all over again.

    Honestly I was expecting a least new armor visuals, so if the maps couldn't be new at least the content was. And of course new actual abilities, no just changing stats around.

    Now I find out I am playing the same maps for content I already have to get what exactly, the armor I am already wearing and some consumables.

    ps. it costs dilithium now

    Laughable if it weren't so tragic
  • robertcrayvenrobertcrayven Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I agree with everything the OP has pointed out. STO slowly stopped being fun for me this season. Truth be told, I haven't logged in for about three days, and those who know me can tell you I'm normally almost always on. The game has become unrecognizable.
  • levi3levi3 Member Posts: 1,663 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    My attitude is, give people a headstart on the farming. I agree that with new rewards being added, you can't say, "Here! Start at Tier 5!"

    But you could say, I dunno:

    - Here: People with Mk X set start at T1. People with Mk XI set start at T2. People with Mk XII set start at T3.

    OR

    - We'll award additional Omega marks for all of the gear accolades.

    OR

    - We'll break out the Veteran BOffs for people who had a set before the change, one for each set they owned.

    OR

    - We'll toss you a Reinforcement DOff pack for each accolade.

    OR

    - We'll toss anyone who had at least one set of Mk XI or better 20 lockbox keys. These keys will be bound, so you can't sell them and are claimable once per account but enjoy this value of over $20 in opening lockboxes, on us. Sorry for the inconvenience but we appreciate your dedication and think you'll like the new system if you keep an open mind.

    You have been awake for 2 long and are losing your mind!!!

    I really have respected Borticus, he is one of the few Dev's who still regularly interacts with the community, however, from his last post this is my impression:

    They have all been handed the Gestapo Uniform and Long Black boots and have been told this is what we are doing to the game and if any players complain just use those shinny new boots and step on their necks.

    Am i getting the wrong impression?
  • toivatoiva Member Posts: 3,276 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    As i explained here http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=6184541#post6184541, charging us on dil is just crazy.

    This intended reputation system might actually be a good idea. If it was meant to complement current means of getting chance-drop related items. Not as a replacement of the current system.
    TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class.
    Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
    Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.

    Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
  • jengozjengoz Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    levi3 wrote: »
    You have been awake for 2 long and are losing your mind!!!

    I really have repected Borticus, he is one of the few Dev's who still regularly interacts with the community, however, from his last post this is my impression:

    They have all been handed the Gestapo Uniform and Long Black boots and have been told this is what we are doing to the game and if any players complain just use those shinny new boots and step on their necks.

    Am i getting the wrong impression?

    I am getting the impression that is not only the tholians who don't give a S*** http://a.yfrog.com/img610/9841/4rxhg.jpg
    "Star Trek Online is powered by the most abundant resource in the galaxy . . . Gullibility"
  • psymantispsymantis Member Posts: 329 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Non-negotiable huh?

    That might be OK if you were the ones paying us. Don't forget the a business only exists if it has customers. Drive away the customers with douchebag moves and bad attitudes and you have no business. We're only here while it's fun. If you make it no longer fun then off we go.
  • tetonicatetonica Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    yeah... really starting to regret putting some faith into this game and splashing for the LTS :(
    Lynis, Orion Engineer, main
    Rrezeth, Gorn Tactical, primary alt
    Nari, Orion Science, secondary alt
  • rokesmithrokesmith Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    So let's see:

    Cost dil to get the free packs - I just won't get any. I'll probably have to start leveling alts and stealing their packs. Or just stop caring about my fleet's base. I mean, I want the Fleet Nova, sure, and the other main contributor want's a Fleet Akira, but not enough to spend even more dil we don't have on getting the random doffs in the first place.

    Cost more dil to get better doffs - I DEFINITELY won't bother with the system anymore.

    No credit for the 3 STF mk xii sets I have on my main, and less dil rewards - I'll just stop running STF's, which is a pity, as they are the way of earning dil I most enjoy.

    Sensing a pattern here?

    These changes are not good. Really it would be better to slash the dil reward from the current ways and add a low level dil reward to everything.

    Bottom line, enough changes like this go through and I'll just have to stop playing. If it isn't fun anymore, or I'm forced to bypass the types of gameplay I do enjoy, why spend any money on it?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • weylandjuarezweylandjuarez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Strange to think that this heavy-handed sweeping under the rug of long-time players concerns is being championed on the forums by someone that once fought for player compensation for the Emblems/Dilithium debacle.

    I guess that Jeremy doesn't work at Cryptic any more huh?
    Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Strange to think that this heavy-handed sweeping under the rug of long-time players concerns is being championed on the forums by someone that once fought for player compensation for the Emblems/Dilithium debacle.

    I guess that Jeremy doesn't work at Cryptic any more huh?

    So...

    ...if one of the biggest proponents of supporting long-term players, and really the players in general, is on what is perceived as the "bad side" of this argument...

    ...is it at all possible that, being on the inside, he knows how this works better than any of us on the outside, and that it's not going to be nearly as bad as people seem to think?


    In fairness, the other side of this coin would suggest that he's already tried to fight it and has been told pretty flatly, "No." Both are quite likely.
  • sekritagentsekritagent Member Posts: 510 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You're giving him far too much credit. You didn't see him on TTS yesterday talking down to us and not even listening to any of our concerns.

    I do not buy that there is some evil bogeyman in the closet telling him or any of the others what they can and can't say. They've made these decisions and the question now is, do we choose to live with them?

    If your rose-tinted glasses aren't off about STO by now, re-read the OP and rethink it.
    Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it! No, seriously! ...Why are you laughing so hard? :(
  • weylandjuarezweylandjuarez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Firstly I find it strange that Jeremy had to champion the concerns of the player base back then - after all, without its players, this game ceases to be.

    Secondly, the fact that there's no longer anyone left at Cryptic prepared to champion the concerns of the players means that STO's best days would appear to be behind it.
    Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
  • badname834854badname834854 Member Posts: 1,186 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Firstly I find it strange that Jeremy had to champion the concerns of the player base back then - after all, without its players, this game ceases to be.

    Secondly, the fact that there's no longer anyone left at Cryptic prepared to champion the concerns of the players means that STO's best days would appear to be behind it.

    A "player Advocate" is only unlocked at T-5 and costs 200k dilithium.
  • weylandjuarezweylandjuarez Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    And it's passive. :D
    Please join our peaceful protest to help make STO a better game
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Proudly not contributing to PWE's bottom-line since October 2012
  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You're giving him far too much credit.

    Maybe. I only know him through reputation and definitely wasn't on during this instance in TTS.

    But I do know his reputation would suggest that he never wasn't trying to do right by the players, even if his new perspective caused some clash between what he though people wanted and what the realities were.

    Point being, if he did outright shut down concerns, I'm sure there's a reason. Whether or not it's a good reason, I have no idea.
  • nikkyvixnikkyvix Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    My attitude is, give people a headstart on the farming. I agree that with new rewards being added, you can't say, "Here! Start at Tier 5!"

    But you could say, I dunno:

    *tons of neat compensatory ideas*

    If I'm remembering my history correctly (not always true, correct me if I'm wrong), it was Borticus that originally went to bat for us on the matter of the Vet BOffs to give us something to compensate for those whose conversion would be shanked by diminishing returns at a certain dilithium level. Such a BOff wasn't originally intended.

    The STF grind is identical to the mark grind of old. It seems fair that at least some accompanying compensation for those who've put forth the effort can be reached instead of just saying 'You don't need to bother with getting the sets now. That's your compensation!'

    That doesn't even factor in the folks who did not manage to complete their mkXII sets.

    Jebus this thread's moving fast. Something I could've replied to is four pages back just from a matter of ten hours.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
    "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
  • pantsmaster916pantsmaster916 Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You people are being vicious, short-sighted and unproductive.

    The entirety of Cryptic is our advocate - they're making a Star Trek MMO that we generally enjoy playing. And without passionate paying customers like us, they have to stop making it. And on top of that, they allow us to play for ABSOLUTELY FREE if we want. Sure, they need us to pay in order to stay afloat, but nothing in the Reputation system is a forced pay wall. Everything being complained about is being blown completely out of proportion.

    Most of these complaints about the cost of the Reputation system revolve around Dilithium. Which is Time. If you don't have enough Dilithium, then just SLOW DOWN and wait, and you will. All Dilithium is, is a "you can't have it until you put in the time" gate. And complaining about it just makes you sound like a bunch of entitled, spoiled kids, that want their toys immediately because you can see them on the shelf.

    So what if it takes 2, 3, or even 6 months to cap out a Reputation and earn the Dilithium-purchased gear rewards. Aren't you going to be playing this game that long from now? I know I am, so what's the freakin' rush? And if you're not, then why should your immediate needs eclipse the long-term need for STO to have a healthy population that is encouraged to continue logging in?

    Here's a more constructive way to present some feedback:

    Dear Cryptic,

    I feel the prices on the Dilithium-purchased Reputation gear should be lower. Consider factoring in the costs it takes to earn the Reputation XP that it takes to unlock that gear, and subtract that (or at least a large portion of it) from the final costs. You still get the Dilithium-based time gating that you're expecting, and we get more palatable pricing.

    While you're at it, can you take another look at converting existing STF Accolades into Omega Marks? Many of us that have run STFs long enough to earn those, have already spent or destroyed the drops that came with those runs, and would like something to show for it. I recognize that may be considered "Double-Dipping" in some senses, and so would accept a lesser conversion rate than 1:1. It's really the thought that counts. Earn some good will with your Vets.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    nikkyvix wrote: »
    If I'm remembering my history correctly (not always true, correct me if I'm wrong), it was Borticus that originally went to bat for us on the matter of the Vet BOffs to give us something to compensate for those whose conversion would be shanked by diminishing returns at a certain dilithium level. Such a BOff wasn't originally intended.

    The STF grind is identical to the mark grind of old. It seems fair that at least some accompanying compensation for those who've put forth the effort can be reached instead of just saying 'You don't need to bother with getting the sets now. That's your compensation!'

    That doesn't even factor in the folks who did not manage to complete their mkXII sets.

    Jebus this thread's moving fast. Something I could've replied to is four pages back just from a matter of ten hours.

    Yes, it seems to have set off a firestorm of interest that these threads haven't seen in quite a while...

    One wonders if perhaps maybe They (Cryptic) have finally hit upon the proverbial 'Straw'...
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • slayvus7slayvus7 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    jexsamx wrote: »
    So...

    ...if one of the biggest proponents of supporting long-term players, and really the players in general, is on what is perceived as the "bad side" of this argument...

    ...is it at all possible that, being on the inside, he knows how this works better than any of us on the outside, and that it's not going to be nearly as bad as people seem to think?


    In fairness, the other side of this coin would suggest that he's already tried to fight it and has been told pretty flatly, "No." Both are quite likely.

    Two problems with the rep system.

    One they're changing all of our VALUEABLE STF currencies into UNVALUABLE currencies.

    Two they're adding not only another grind to STF gear, but they're also mkaing it TWO grinds. One requires you to grind out Marks, Elite Marks and Dil. The other requires you grind out Marks and Dil AND wait for days and WEEKS while you work on single-person Starbase like fleet assignments.

    My first point is proven true in my signature.
    Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
    You've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which you have no use for.
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6177451&postcount=310
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    You people are being vicious, short-sighted and unproductive.

    The entirety of Cryptic is our advocate - they're making a Star Trek MMO that we generally enjoy playing. And without passionate paying customers like us, they have to stop making it. And on top of that, they allow us to play for ABSOLUTELY FREE if we want. Sure, they need us to pay in order to stay afloat, but nothing in the Reputation system is a forced pay wall. Everything being complained about is being blown completely out of proportion.

    Most of these complaints about the cost of the Reputation system revolve around Dilithium. Which is Time. If you don't have enough Dilithium, then just SLOW DOWN and wait, and you will. All Dilithium is, is a "you can't have it until you put in the time" gate. And complaining about it just makes you sound like a bunch of entitled, spoiled kids, that want their toys immediately because you can see them on the shelf.

    So what if it takes 2, 3, or even 6 months to cap out a Reputation and earn the Dilithium-purchased gear rewards. Aren't you going to be playing this game that long from now? I know I am, so what's the freakin' rush? And if you're not, then why should your immediate needs eclipse the long-term need for STO to have a healthy population that is encouraged to continue logging in?

    Here's a more constructive way to present some feedback:

    Dear Cryptic,

    I feel the prices on the Dilithium-purchased Reputation gear should be lower. Consider factoring in the costs it takes to earn the Reputation XP that it takes to unlock that gear, and subtract that (or at least a large portion of it) from the final costs. You still get the Dilithium-based time gating that you're expecting, and we get more palatable pricing.

    While you're at it, can you take another look at converting existing STF Accolades into Omega Marks? Many of us that have run STFs long enough to earn those, have already spent or destroyed the drops that came with those runs, and would like something to show for it. I recognize that may be considered "Double-Dipping" in some senses, and so would accept a lesser conversion rate than 1:1. It's really the thought that counts. Earn some good will with your Vets.

    You appear to be new around here (?) ...you'll get it... ... eventually.

    While I agree with you about the manner in which our thought's on this (or any) subject should be presented...

    Just wait till we see what the actual conversion rate is...,

    Based on previous experience..., I strongly suggest you don't hold your breath for anything near a 1:1 ratio.

    Being <Cartman expletive> by Cryptic is a delightful experience because occasionally, They DO kiss you.
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • slayvus7slayvus7 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    daveyny wrote: »
    You appear to be new around here (?) ...you'll get it... ... eventually.

    Just wait till we see what the actual conversion rate is...,

    Based on previous experience..., I strongly suggest you don't hold your breath for anything near a 1:1 ratio.

    The actual conversion is going to be miniscule. They already value our STF currencies as being worth $0.00000000000.

    Guess what though, page 35 I show how valuable all the STF currencies are and how through two different conversion methods, you can increase the value of EDCs.
    Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
    You've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which you have no use for.
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6177451&postcount=310
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