You people are being vicious, short-sighted and unproductive.
The entirety of Cryptic is our advocate - they're making a Star Trek MMO that we generally enjoy playing. And without passionate paying customers like us, they have to stop making it. And on top of that, they allow us to play for ABSOLUTELY FREE if we want. Sure, they need us to pay in order to stay afloat, but nothing in the Reputation system is a forced pay wall. Everything being complained about is being blown completely out of proportion.
Most of these complaints about the cost of the Reputation system revolve around Dilithium. Which is Time. If you don't have enough Dilithium, then just SLOW DOWN and wait, and you will. All Dilithium is, is a "you can't have it until you put in the time" gate. And complaining about it just makes you sound like a bunch of entitled, spoiled kids, that want their toys immediately because you can see them on the shelf.
So what if it takes 2, 3, or even 6 months to cap out a Reputation and earn the Dilithium-purchased gear rewards. Aren't you going to be playing this game that long from now? I know I am, so what's the freakin' rush? And if you're not, then why should your immediate needs eclipse the long-term need for STO to have a healthy population that is encouraged to continue logging in?
Here's a more constructive way to present some feedback:
Dear Cryptic,
I feel the prices on the Dilithium-purchased Reputation gear should be lower. Consider factoring in the costs it takes to earn the Reputation XP that it takes to unlock that gear, and subtract that (or at least a large portion of it) from the final costs. You still get the Dilithium-based time gating that you're expecting, and we get more palatable pricing.
While you're at it, can you take another look at converting existing STF Accolades into Omega Marks? Many of us that have run STFs long enough to earn those, have already spent or destroyed the drops that came with those runs, and would like something to show for it. I recognize that may be considered "Double-Dipping" in some senses, and so would accept a lesser conversion rate than 1:1. It's really the thought that counts. Earn some good will with your Vets.
Can't say I disagree entirely. I think much of the alarmism is uncalled for, but I do think that Cryptic is risking alienating customers through some of their costs.
Right now Cryptic is trying to find the place where supply meets demand- in other words, what is the most they can charge without driving away so many customers that it's a loss. Like any other responsible business or indivdiual, they are trying to maximize profits with minimal effort. That's fine and moral and will ultimately deliver the best experience for everyone. That having been said, in trying to find that ideal balance, they risk tipping the scales too far. Based on the reactions of this thread, they may be approaching that point. Of course, how many people are talk, and how many actually walk? I guess we'll see when the rubber meets the road.
I, for one, may not be happy about some of the changes, but I will tolerate them. I enjoy this game too much.
Relatively, yes. I started when STO made a F2P splash on Steam.
In that time, I've spent a grand total of $20 on this FREE TO PLAY game.
I feel like very few players that spend so little cash actually speak up on these forums, and it's a point of view that appears to be very different from the Lifetime Subscriber / More-Money-Than-Time crowd that tends to fill these forums with their entitlement-filled complaints. Just trying to spread some sanity around, offer a differing viewpoint.
Maybe it's naive to expect anything close to a 1:1 conversion, but I don't see why, logically. We know all we're getting is Omega Marks for the conversion, so we'll still have to spend our time, Dil, EC and who knows what else, to get thru the system. It doesn't serve Cryptic to recalculate the scaling of rewards offered by STFs. If a previous STF gave X reward, calculate the Mark value and work out from there, setting the Reputation numbers up based on that conversion rate. Considering the figures I've seen on Tribble, they seem to have done just that.
Maybe I'll be burned and disappointed. But even if I am, all I'm losing is time that I'll have to invest anyway. Time is the only real currency in any MMO, though. I learned to accept that a long time ago. Whether I spend it or not is my choice, based on whether or not I'm enjoying the game. And from what I've seen so far, there's no question that I am.
Can't say I disagree entirely. I think much of the alarmism is uncalled for, but I do think that Cryptic is risking alienating customers through some of their costs.
Right now Cryptic is trying to find the place where supply meets demand- in other words, what is the most they can charge without driving away so many customers that it's a loss. Like any other responsible business or indivdiual, they are trying to maximize profits with minimal effort. That's fine and moral and will ultimately deliver the best experience for everyone. That having been said, in trying to find that ideal balance, they risk tipping the scales too far. Based on the reactions of this thread, they may be approaching that point. Of course, how many people are talk, and how many actually walk? I guess we'll see when the rubber meets the road.
I, for one, may not be happy about some of the changes, but I will tolerate them. I enjoy this game too much.
Oh, I'm not going to leave, I'm going to relish in the fact that buying Zen is going to be cheaper with season 7 as Dil becomes more valuable.
The profit of Dil farmers is going to increase.
Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
I doubt you'll find this constructive, and this is far from a rage quit, but take me logging into MWO as a show of my confidence and a metric for what I will bear when it comes to how I employ my scant free time.
I'll be in this game tomorrow. My sanity can't take any more fleetbase grind so I only intend to space PvP till I pass out or the queue takes more than fifteen minutes.
You really should consider rewarding us for how we prefer play, (that includes raiders and PvPers). I most likely would have spent today's free time in your game if you did. Possibly punishing raiders by taking away a major source of in game currency is bad form and I hope you reconsider the move.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Well, at least I now know whose (overly rotund bottom) broke the camel's back. I mean some of this reads as (stir crazy bat dropping nuts.) Let me reduce my thoughts to a simple concept. I pay for fun game play rather than bland, intensive, penny grinds and in a game that's clearly "pay to progress" you no longer offer enough fun content in lieu of work outside of a Trek skin on a pretty browser game to justify the required pay outs. For me you have gone too far.
At this point I am honestly wondering if PWE is now the primary supplier of Dilithium on the exchange that we buy with ZEN. If that is indeed the case then all of these game changes to Dilithium acquisition and spending requirements make perfect business sense. However, they alienate me as a consumer in that I will not be taken advantage of by a (suited, miserly, business man with stray morals.)
You are supposed to be selling me a game to play. Not skinning the appearances of a game over what has become little more than a "soulless" money making grind mechanic. It's almost like you have set up a Pavlovian experiment since going F2P to see exactly how much we will tolerate spending for how little work on your part. I can't even buy a C-Store ship without knowing there will be a yet $5 dollars more Fleet Version in a couple of months.
How long before you start releasing "special fleet version 2" ships for $5 more on top of that? Don't even try to tell me never as I am actually watching what you really "do."
It's all become dishonest. You are offering the "illusion" of a game skined as a Trek fantasy trip when it is not. I can pay a flat $15 dollars a month to sub for a game like WOW, TSW, EVE, etc and get a game with all included content outside of vanity shirts and hats in the cash shop. I can go earn the best gear and items in game without having to buy outside game currency or milk someone else for it by way of Dilithium. I can go buy a copy of GW2 and never have to pay another dime to progress or earn game items.
What do you offer now in STO again? Grind item X only to pay you more and more real money to get the rewards I suposedly earned by playing?
Sad part of all these 43 pages of Rant is that nothing will change what the have planned.
Borticus has said plain and clear there is NO room for discussion already in one area.
The other sad part is that everyone says - oh we won't continue to play - BULL****
and they know that in their little prison shower room called holodeck - they will keep dropping the soap on the floor and most of the players will continue to bend over and pick it up. Including almost everyone posting here - me included.
<Dev> BorticusCryptic@BorticusCryptic: We're not granting -any- free rep, ever. If (great big IF) we decide that Accolades are meant to grant you progression, it will be in the form of Omega Marks.
Within that statement, there is still room for discussion in the form of additional conversion for Accolades. And if there's room for discussion there, then they're probably also willing to hear feedback on other topics as well. The only thing Cryptic doesn't appear to be budging on, is "Free Reputation XP" via conversion.
It's not entitlement. People aren't asking for things to be made easier or cost less but to not cost more than they currently do.
I may've missed it in this thread then... did somebody calculate the costs already? Do we know that costs are rising?
I'm talking at a fundamental timesink level. I know gear didn't cost Dilithium before, but it cost time which could've been spent earning Dilithium. It's the same thing in the end.
I play around 2 months so i am a fairly new player and as i am a fan of the Star Trek series and films i decided to try this game, especially from the moment it was f2p.
As i am over 40 years old and a gamer i have played a LOT of MMO's (and single player but these have a completely different philosophy) ,f2p and not f2p ones.
Here is what i like from this game:
The way you get free ships each 10 lvls (till 40)
The Fleets and mature players STO have
The fleet ships/items
The not forced pvp system. you want pvp you go to a qeue and that is it.
The missions,great way for a new player to learn how to play plus the story is great imho.
The doff system, a great way for players with not much time to earn ec and dil and to lvl theyr chars.
The advanced doff system , i mention it as advanced because after you learn and become an experienced player you start doing missions to get better quality doffs,MKII consoles, etc
The exchange, a paradise for players that do not want to pvp or do stf's all the time to earn money/spend their time.
What i don't like
The dil grinding you must do each day to get zen to buy ships/items/inv space/doff slots/chars etc, especially from the moment that you reach lvl 50 you must do a LOT of grinding each day to buy things so that you can keep your interest in the game.
The lock boxes with all the random things that you get.
The fleet mark system and the ridiculous amount of dil/doffs needed for each of projects.
Atm very few do the fleet pve's to earn fleet marks so from what i have seen so far it would be nice if earned fleet marks would be a bit higher or perhaps making the fleet pve's more "unique".
The very few options some careers have to play their ships.
From what i have seen so far 70% of the players play Tactical officers and 30% only are engineers and sci's.
Make the career paths more "unique" , bring FREE VA ships in the game and give the players more options to actually play the game and not grind, give subscribers more "goodies" like 10-20 master keys/months etc.
I understand that the f2p model needs players to buy zen but try to keep a balance...
Don't bring more "lucky items" (aka lock boxes) but bring more content and reward more the players that subscribe.
These are my thoughts of how to make this game better...
From most posts that i have seen the above things i wrote is the main reason why most players are angry about the dil changes.
Don't forget PWE and Cryptic the average player, make the game fun with lots of easy to obtain goodies and the average player will continue to support you.
I may've missed it in this thread then... did somebody calculate the costs already? Do we know that costs are rising?
I'm talking at a fundamental timesink level. I know gear didn't cost Dilithium before, but it cost time which could've been spent earning Dilithium. It's the same thing in the end.
Dilithium is a finite resource. You can only refine 8,000 of it a day. Whatever you use it for currently it can't be used for that if you want the sets. Extra time makes no difference if you already hit the cap. To get more dil would mean spending zen which is from real money.
Dilithium is a finite resource. You can only refine 8,000 of it a day. Whatever you use it for currently it can't be used for that if you want the sets. Extra time makes no difference if you already hit the cap. To get more dil would mean spending zen which is from real money.
What are you already spending 8,000 Dilithium a day on? Starbases? Why? And why are YOU spending that much, if you have fleet mates that are supposed to be contributing as well?
Within that statement, there is still room for discussion in the form of additional conversion for Accolades. And if there's room for discussion there, then they're probably also willing to hear feedback on other topics as well. The only thing Cryptic doesn't appear to be budging on, is "Free Reputation XP" via conversion.
Folks need to slow down and check your sources.
I think it would cool a lot of frustration and shed some haterade if they were to offer enough Omega marks to make it the vast majority of the way to the reputation point where you can start buying the STF gear, so most of the work to get there is already done. Yes, it would take some time, but I keep hearing about people who spend six months and never getting a single Mk XII drop anyway.
Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it might be worth it for Cryptic to at least consider it.
Personally I think that the STF stuff is small change compared to the potential impact of the DOff situation that everyone seems to have forgotten about (HAS everyone forgotten about it?), but that's just me, and that's thinking long-term instead of a few sets of gear per character.
I think it would cool a lot of frustration and shed some haterade if they were to offer enough Omega marks to make it the vast majority of the way to the reputation point where you can start buying the STF gear, so most of the work to get there is already done. Yes, it would take some time, but I keep hearing about people who spend six months and never getting a single Mk XII drop anyway.
Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it might be worth it for Cryptic to at least consider it.
Personally I think that the STF stuff is small change compared to the potential impact of the DOff situation that everyone seems to have forgotten about (HAS everyone forgotten about it?), but that's just me, and that's thinking long-term instead of a few sets of gear per character.
There are lots of other issues that are passing by - Investigate officer reports - and the console clicking issue - will it be remove? so take that 2 min 1440 dilth away?
The removal of free doffs from the academey and the MASSIVE increase in doff grinding price
5 common to 1 green - going from 10 dilth currently to 500 dilth
5 green to 1 blue - 50 current to 2500!!
5 blue to 1 purple 250 current to 5000!!
Plus there are lots of other changes that are lurking
There are lots of other issues that are passing by - Investigate officer reports - and the console clicking issue - will it be remove? so take that 2 min 1440 dilth away?
The removal of free doffs from the academey and the MASSIVE increase in doff grinding price
5 common to 1 green - going from 10 dilth currently to 500 dilth
5 green to 1 blue - 50 current to 2500!!
5 blue to 1 purple 250 current to 5000!!
Plus there are lots of other changes that are lurking
Its because the playerbase is getting hit with horrendous future prospects on multiple fronts. The future for STO seems bleaker and bleaker everywhere you look. You like doffing? get ready to have it cost more. You want to progress your character? Get ready to start paying more. You have alts you crazy silly hopeless person? Get ready to pay all that, per character!
With so many things its hard to keep much emotional investment in more than one or two things. We've gone from Borg set nerfs, to Doff price increase to the an increase in the price of progressing your character.. all the while the constant drain of fleet bases is ongoing.
At this rate the next disappointment will be met with little more than a shrug as people just won't have energy to care. What will it be I wonder? But if they have anything else particularly distasteful to announce now is the time to do it.
By the way, has anyone heard any of the story that S7 was supposed to bring? S7 WAS story wasn't it?
With so many things its hard to keep much emotional investment in more than one or two things. We've gone from Borg set nerfs, to Doff price increase to the an increase in the price of progressing your character.. all the while the constant drain of fleet bases is ongoing.
At this rate the next disappointment will be met with little more than a shrug as people just won't have energy to care. What will it be I wonder? But if they have anything else particularly distasteful to announce now is the time to do it.
Strange to think that this heavy-handed sweeping under the rug of long-time players concerns is being championed on the forums by someone that once fought for player compensation for the Emblems/Dilithium debacle.
I guess that Jeremy doesn't work at Cryptic any more huh?
here's what you don't undrerstand (and I've been playing MMOs since EQ in 1999): ANY new system change is usually reviled by the long term playerbase as soon as they here - "As it's a new system, we want everyone to basically start from scratch.)
Historical Example: When EQ first added AA points way back when - ALL the folks who had been at level cap for 6+ months felt cheated, want 'compenstaion XP, etc. -- The cry was huge and large. End result: Existing playerbase accepted it - EQ continued to expand (this was YEARS prior to WoW hitting the scene.)
Also, I'm surprised a lot of folks don't remember - the the 'revised STF loot/gear system' that many seem to want to retain was hailed as 'doom' as well.
ANY new system or sweeping change to any existing system in an established MMO is usually met with horror from the existing playerbase that made use of the system being changed.
In the end, after the forum warriors on both sides express their outrage - 3 months later, everything's running smooth; and the min/maxers have figured out the pros/cons of the new system and all is forgotten - except by the 1% for which 'change X' was the last straw (and I've been part of that 1% in other MMOs I've played.)
In the end though, unless there really is a major flaw in a system (and honestly, so far, notjhing really egregious sticks out - most players are upset they don't get a headstart of the Tiers for time spent doing STFs to date); the overall playerbase will simply adapt, play (and continue to pay); the 1% will continue to rage, some will quit (and a few of thosemay even return later and start playing again) - and the game will move forward.
IMO - Overall the "Reputation grind' in STO isn't even all that bad as I once ground out Cenarion Circle rep in WoW to get the best Axe for Hunters (at the time, this was pre Burning Crusade and in addition to having to max out Cenarion Circle rep - I had to get items from the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj (20 man raid zone) on Raids with my Guild - took about 15 full raids to get the Gems I needed as I recall. Overall, to get that one Axe took me about 6 months from the day I decided I was going to go for it.)
^^^
Compared to stuff like that (which may or may not still exist in current WoW to that point - although I'm sure there is STILL a lot of rep to grind across WoW to unlock various vendors, gear and other content) - the new reputation system isn't that terrible.
Also, one has to remember; they're not doing this to 'TRIBBLE over' anyone per se. This is a system they want to use (and iteratre as the game moves forward) to expand on Endgame/max level content options moving forward I'm sure we'll get other faction grinds in later seasons in the same way they plan to expand Fleet holdings.
Endgame in MMOs is all about repetition and grind. The trick any Dev team tries to do is give you enough variety, so you have choices and can vary your grind. STO is 2 1/2 years old, had a ull year of turmpil that affected development in a VERY negative way; and is just starting to more forward on developing an actual 'endgame' structure (which to be honest, Cryptic has never done before - as much as I loved CoH - under Cryptic (and comntinued under Paragon until 'Going Rogue' where after 7 years they were trying to make an 'endgame' for CoH) NEVER had an endgame.
My point? This is what they're attempting as their endgame mechanics, and they're trying to make something that's more easily expandable and understandable to everyone in the long run.
If the largest complaints are:
- Pricing seems a bit high (and that can be refined and adjusted)
and
- I want tier credit in the new system for all the STF grinding I did.. 9and in my experience I've never seen an MMO give 'credit' in a new system, unless that system gives credit for acquired accolades that players may have gotten over the years.)
IMO - they're not doing a bad job with it. Also, i don't see how trying to finally design a sustainable and supportable endgame structure will be bad for STO in the long run, or will TRIBBLE veteran players, as, if you generally like the game, it gives it a better chance of surviving so we can play it a few more years.
And as for 'new gear' that makes previously earned gear not as good/obsolete -- welcome to MMOs in general as the term in known as 'Mudflation' (refering to online text MUDs with gear where the owner made new better gear) - and has existed in every modern MMO from Meridian 59 to Guild Wars 2.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
What are you already spending 8,000 Dilithium a day on? Starbases? Why? And why are YOU spending that much, if you have fleet mates that are supposed to be contributing as well?
I may've missed it in this thread then... did somebody calculate the costs already? Do we know that costs are rising?
I'm talking at a fundamental timesink level. I know gear didn't cost Dilithium before, but it cost time which could've been spent earning Dilithium. It's the same thing in the end.
You can hunt it down (with 40+ pages to go through) but apparently the current working price is 36,000 per piece, so 108,000 for a set per toon. Take into account the zen-to-dilithum conversion rates and thats $6.83 at current rates, and more when the cost of dil likely more-than-doubles. Finish your sets now, even turn in EDC for just Mk11 if you have to, because fully kitting out all your toons is going to become impractical when this drops.
In the end, after the forum warriors on both sides express their outrage - 3 months later, everything's running smooth; and the min/maxers have figured out the pros/cons of the new system and all is forgotten - except by the 1% for which 'change X' was the last straw (and I've been part of that 1% in other MMOs I've played.)
I can count on two hands the number of times I've visited Memory Alpha since Season 5. Doffing is the only reason many people even log in. Make it cost astronomically more and they'll quit bothering completely.
Cryptic can't afford to lose any more players. As for recklessly pressing forward and waiting to see what people do, they should look around and see how many of the players they lost in 2010-2011 ever came back. Whole fleets have left this game for less.
Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it! No, seriously! ...Why are you laughing so hard?
I can count on two hands the number of times I've visited Memory Alpha since Season 5. Doffing is the only reason many people even log in. Make it cost astronomically more and they'll quit bothering completely.
Cryptic can't afford to lose any more players. As for recklessly pressing forward and waiting to see what people do, they should look around and see how many of the players they lost in 2010-2011 ever came back. Whole fleets have left this game for less.
Seekrit, you might want to add that loot bags are being removed from STFs as well, reducing it to marks and dilithium only.
You can hunt it down (with 40+ pages to go through) but apparently the current working price is 36,000 per piece, so 108,000 for a set per toon. Take into account the zen-to-dilithum conversion rates and thats $6.83 at current rates...
Fine, fine, but how much TIME does it take. Not Dollars, not Zen.
36,000 x 3 = 108,000 Dilithium for a Mk XII set
Let's assume that I've only got 2,000 a day in "spare" Dilithium that I can stand to put toward this, due to C-Store conversion, Starbases, or whatever. Is that reasonable for most players?
At that rate, it'll be 54 days before I can afford a full set, after I've achieved T5 in Omega. That's less than 2 months.
... I don't know about you guys, but that actually seems reasonable for "The Best Gear In The Game." Hell, even at double that (1000/day = 104 days = ~3.5mos) it's better than what I've had so far with rotten luck drops in the current STFs. And this way, I know the exact amount of progress I am making each time I receive a Dilithium reward, and can make choices to sacrifice other things if I want to afford it faster.
Seriously - I do NOT see the problem here. And I'm not trying to fanboi on you - I'm just looking at the numbers. I honestly think that the people losing their sh*t over this are just refusing to examine it in detail.
Seekrit, you might want to add that loot bags are being removed from STFs as well, reducing it to marks and dilithium only.
Wait, really? Wow, the excitement of STFs is being drained by the day and replaced with an endless grind. Now I'll never have that "I wonder what I'll get feeling!" again.
Wait, really? Wow, the excitement of STFs is being drained by the day and replaced with an endless grind. Now I'll never have that "I wonder what I'll get feeling!" again.
Wait, really? Wow, the excitement of STFs is being drained by the day and replaced with an endless grind. Now I'll never have that "I wonder what I'll get feeling!" again.
sigh...
or the WHY THE ***K DID I GET THIS AGAIN!!!! ARGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! feeling.
Also, one has to remember; they're not doing this to 'TRIBBLE over' anyone per se.
[...]
- Pricing seems a bit high (and that can be refined and adjusted)
But insane dil prices is "TRIBBLE people over". We used to be able to trade loots to get the STF gear. Now this system is completely removed from the game and we will be forced to use dilithium, the currency you trade for cash. Of course we won't be forced to buy dilithium but the previous way to get that kind of stuff was free since it didn't hurt our refinment cap:
100k per set and 14k dil per weapon. That's really, really too much. We can't build starbases, increase our rep, start the new embassies (dil use is mandatory, there's no project avoiding dil), and stuff our chars. I mean I'm here to play a game, not here to maintain 15 chars or to play to pay... And it's not because I'm not willing to pay to support the game, I just don't like when people change the rules and say that now you'll have to pay for something that used to be free.
Now, the new sets and the romulan reputation systems are fine. I don't know about the prices there yet, and won't buy the stuff if it's too expensive anyway, but since it's completely new I have no complaints about it and do like the fact that way to expand the game. I'd like to keep the current stf stores and loots though, so that I don't feel "screwed over" when I have to buy stuff that used to be free.
Seriously - I do NOT see the problem here. And I'm not trying to fanboi on you - I'm just looking at the numbers. I honestly think that the people losing their sh*t over this are just refusing to examine it in detail.
Okay 54 days per set. Times two, for a space set and a ground set. Times however many alts you have. I have seven, as an example, so thats over 2 years of grind. For slightly better stats. Or I can just fork over $96 (at CURRENT rates) and buy all the needed dil and reduce (but still not eliminate) my grind.
There is nothing in this game worth that much time or money to me. I can accept $25 for a ship thats account-wide and available immediately. I can even grudgingly accept 'the best gear in the game' coming as an absurdly rare random drop requiring a mind-numbing time investment. Requiring both is not okay. I dunno about quitting altogether, but I doubt I'll be restarting my STF grinds after this hits holodeck. Becomes just one more part of the game thats not for me.
Okay 54 days per set. Times two, for a space set and a ground set. Times however many alts you have. I have seven, as an example, so thats over 2 years of grind. For slightly better stats. Or I can just fork over $96 (at CURRENT rates) and buy all the needed dil and reduce (but still not eliminate) my grind.
You're complaining that alts make the system expensive. You chose and accepted that cost by rolling up a new character. You don't deserve anything extra just because you chose to have more than one max-level character. Don't confuse the argument by using a variable that was introduced of your own choosing.
Since people love bringing up other MMOs as examples, how about WoW's raid content? If you roll up an alt, do they automatically get free or discounted loot just because you spent months earning raid gear for your main toon? No. You work for it just the same.
The real cost is that $96 you calculated out, divided by the seven toons you've chosen to level up, which equates to under $14. I know people that'd pay that to completely outfit one character in max-level gear, no problem. It's less than a single ship, as you pointed out.
Comments
Can't say I disagree entirely. I think much of the alarmism is uncalled for, but I do think that Cryptic is risking alienating customers through some of their costs.
Right now Cryptic is trying to find the place where supply meets demand- in other words, what is the most they can charge without driving away so many customers that it's a loss. Like any other responsible business or indivdiual, they are trying to maximize profits with minimal effort. That's fine and moral and will ultimately deliver the best experience for everyone. That having been said, in trying to find that ideal balance, they risk tipping the scales too far. Based on the reactions of this thread, they may be approaching that point. Of course, how many people are talk, and how many actually walk? I guess we'll see when the rubber meets the road.
I, for one, may not be happy about some of the changes, but I will tolerate them. I enjoy this game too much.
Relatively, yes. I started when STO made a F2P splash on Steam.
In that time, I've spent a grand total of $20 on this FREE TO PLAY game.
I feel like very few players that spend so little cash actually speak up on these forums, and it's a point of view that appears to be very different from the Lifetime Subscriber / More-Money-Than-Time crowd that tends to fill these forums with their entitlement-filled complaints. Just trying to spread some sanity around, offer a differing viewpoint.
Maybe it's naive to expect anything close to a 1:1 conversion, but I don't see why, logically. We know all we're getting is Omega Marks for the conversion, so we'll still have to spend our time, Dil, EC and who knows what else, to get thru the system. It doesn't serve Cryptic to recalculate the scaling of rewards offered by STFs. If a previous STF gave X reward, calculate the Mark value and work out from there, setting the Reputation numbers up based on that conversion rate. Considering the figures I've seen on Tribble, they seem to have done just that.
Maybe I'll be burned and disappointed. But even if I am, all I'm losing is time that I'll have to invest anyway. Time is the only real currency in any MMO, though. I learned to accept that a long time ago. Whether I spend it or not is my choice, based on whether or not I'm enjoying the game. And from what I've seen so far, there's no question that I am.
Oh, I'm not going to leave, I'm going to relish in the fact that buying Zen is going to be cheaper with season 7 as Dil becomes more valuable.
The profit of Dil farmers is going to increase.
I'll be in this game tomorrow. My sanity can't take any more fleetbase grind so I only intend to space PvP till I pass out or the queue takes more than fifteen minutes.
You really should consider rewarding us for how we prefer play, (that includes raiders and PvPers). I most likely would have spent today's free time in your game if you did. Possibly punishing raiders by taking away a major source of in game currency is bad form and I hope you reconsider the move.
At this point I am honestly wondering if PWE is now the primary supplier of Dilithium on the exchange that we buy with ZEN. If that is indeed the case then all of these game changes to Dilithium acquisition and spending requirements make perfect business sense. However, they alienate me as a consumer in that I will not be taken advantage of by a (suited, miserly, business man with stray morals.)
You are supposed to be selling me a game to play. Not skinning the appearances of a game over what has become little more than a "soulless" money making grind mechanic. It's almost like you have set up a Pavlovian experiment since going F2P to see exactly how much we will tolerate spending for how little work on your part. I can't even buy a C-Store ship without knowing there will be a yet $5 dollars more Fleet Version in a couple of months.
How long before you start releasing "special fleet version 2" ships for $5 more on top of that? Don't even try to tell me never as I am actually watching what you really "do."
It's all become dishonest. You are offering the "illusion" of a game skined as a Trek fantasy trip when it is not. I can pay a flat $15 dollars a month to sub for a game like WOW, TSW, EVE, etc and get a game with all included content outside of vanity shirts and hats in the cash shop. I can go earn the best gear and items in game without having to buy outside game currency or milk someone else for it by way of Dilithium. I can go buy a copy of GW2 and never have to pay another dime to progress or earn game items.
What do you offer now in STO again? Grind item X only to pay you more and more real money to get the rewards I suposedly earned by playing?
Pfffttt.... (Bad Language.)
I am about to do a STOked. O.o
Borticus has said plain and clear there is NO room for discussion already in one area.
The other sad part is that everyone says - oh we won't continue to play - BULL****
and they know that in their little prison shower room called holodeck - they will keep dropping the soap on the floor and most of the players will continue to bend over and pick it up. Including almost everyone posting here - me included.
That's the bottom line!
(edited to be a bit more accurate)
Where's the reference for this?
I found a transcript of his TTS talk over on the STO subreddit. Here's the only line where he's adamant about "the way things are":
Within that statement, there is still room for discussion in the form of additional conversion for Accolades. And if there's room for discussion there, then they're probably also willing to hear feedback on other topics as well. The only thing Cryptic doesn't appear to be budging on, is "Free Reputation XP" via conversion.
Folks need to slow down and check your sources.
Ahh yes, the word that gets thrown around nowadays whenever someone gives a differing point of view.
It's not entitlement. People aren't asking for things to be made easier or cost less but to not cost more than they currently do.
I may've missed it in this thread then... did somebody calculate the costs already? Do we know that costs are rising?
I'm talking at a fundamental timesink level. I know gear didn't cost Dilithium before, but it cost time which could've been spent earning Dilithium. It's the same thing in the end.
As i am over 40 years old and a gamer i have played a LOT of MMO's (and single player but these have a completely different philosophy) ,f2p and not f2p ones.
Here is what i like from this game:
The way you get free ships each 10 lvls (till 40)
The Fleets and mature players STO have
The fleet ships/items
The not forced pvp system. you want pvp you go to a qeue and that is it.
The missions,great way for a new player to learn how to play plus the story is great imho.
The doff system, a great way for players with not much time to earn ec and dil and to lvl theyr chars.
The advanced doff system , i mention it as advanced because after you learn and become an experienced player you start doing missions to get better quality doffs,MKII consoles, etc
The exchange, a paradise for players that do not want to pvp or do stf's all the time to earn money/spend their time.
What i don't like
The dil grinding you must do each day to get zen to buy ships/items/inv space/doff slots/chars etc, especially from the moment that you reach lvl 50 you must do a LOT of grinding each day to buy things so that you can keep your interest in the game.
The lock boxes with all the random things that you get.
The fleet mark system and the ridiculous amount of dil/doffs needed for each of projects.
Atm very few do the fleet pve's to earn fleet marks so from what i have seen so far it would be nice if earned fleet marks would be a bit higher or perhaps making the fleet pve's more "unique".
The very few options some careers have to play their ships.
From what i have seen so far 70% of the players play Tactical officers and 30% only are engineers and sci's.
Make the career paths more "unique" , bring FREE VA ships in the game and give the players more options to actually play the game and not grind, give subscribers more "goodies" like 10-20 master keys/months etc.
I understand that the f2p model needs players to buy zen but try to keep a balance...
Don't bring more "lucky items" (aka lock boxes) but bring more content and reward more the players that subscribe.
These are my thoughts of how to make this game better...
From most posts that i have seen the above things i wrote is the main reason why most players are angry about the dil changes.
Don't forget PWE and Cryptic the average player, make the game fun with lots of easy to obtain goodies and the average player will continue to support you.
Dilithium is a finite resource. You can only refine 8,000 of it a day. Whatever you use it for currently it can't be used for that if you want the sets. Extra time makes no difference if you already hit the cap. To get more dil would mean spending zen which is from real money.
What are you already spending 8,000 Dilithium a day on? Starbases? Why? And why are YOU spending that much, if you have fleet mates that are supposed to be contributing as well?
I think it would cool a lot of frustration and shed some haterade if they were to offer enough Omega marks to make it the vast majority of the way to the reputation point where you can start buying the STF gear, so most of the work to get there is already done. Yes, it would take some time, but I keep hearing about people who spend six months and never getting a single Mk XII drop anyway.
Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it might be worth it for Cryptic to at least consider it.
Personally I think that the STF stuff is small change compared to the potential impact of the DOff situation that everyone seems to have forgotten about (HAS everyone forgotten about it?), but that's just me, and that's thinking long-term instead of a few sets of gear per character.
There are lots of other issues that are passing by - Investigate officer reports - and the console clicking issue - will it be remove? so take that 2 min 1440 dilth away?
The removal of free doffs from the academey and the MASSIVE increase in doff grinding price
5 common to 1 green - going from 10 dilth currently to 500 dilth
5 green to 1 blue - 50 current to 2500!!
5 blue to 1 purple 250 current to 5000!!
Plus there are lots of other changes that are lurking
Its because the playerbase is getting hit with horrendous future prospects on multiple fronts. The future for STO seems bleaker and bleaker everywhere you look. You like doffing? get ready to have it cost more. You want to progress your character? Get ready to start paying more. You have alts you crazy silly hopeless person? Get ready to pay all that, per character!
With so many things its hard to keep much emotional investment in more than one or two things. We've gone from Borg set nerfs, to Doff price increase to the an increase in the price of progressing your character.. all the while the constant drain of fleet bases is ongoing.
At this rate the next disappointment will be met with little more than a shrug as people just won't have energy to care. What will it be I wonder? But if they have anything else particularly distasteful to announce now is the time to do it.
By the way, has anyone heard any of the story that S7 was supposed to bring? S7 WAS story wasn't it?
This is definitely "WORKING AS INTENDED!!!"
here's what you don't undrerstand (and I've been playing MMOs since EQ in 1999): ANY new system change is usually reviled by the long term playerbase as soon as they here - "As it's a new system, we want everyone to basically start from scratch.)
Historical Example: When EQ first added AA points way back when - ALL the folks who had been at level cap for 6+ months felt cheated, want 'compenstaion XP, etc. -- The cry was huge and large. End result: Existing playerbase accepted it - EQ continued to expand (this was YEARS prior to WoW hitting the scene.)
Also, I'm surprised a lot of folks don't remember - the the 'revised STF loot/gear system' that many seem to want to retain was hailed as 'doom' as well.
ANY new system or sweeping change to any existing system in an established MMO is usually met with horror from the existing playerbase that made use of the system being changed.
In the end, after the forum warriors on both sides express their outrage - 3 months later, everything's running smooth; and the min/maxers have figured out the pros/cons of the new system and all is forgotten - except by the 1% for which 'change X' was the last straw (and I've been part of that 1% in other MMOs I've played.)
In the end though, unless there really is a major flaw in a system (and honestly, so far, notjhing really egregious sticks out - most players are upset they don't get a headstart of the Tiers for time spent doing STFs to date); the overall playerbase will simply adapt, play (and continue to pay); the 1% will continue to rage, some will quit (and a few of thosemay even return later and start playing again) - and the game will move forward.
IMO - Overall the "Reputation grind' in STO isn't even all that bad as I once ground out Cenarion Circle rep in WoW to get the best Axe for Hunters (at the time, this was pre Burning Crusade and in addition to having to max out Cenarion Circle rep - I had to get items from the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj (20 man raid zone) on Raids with my Guild - took about 15 full raids to get the Gems I needed as I recall. Overall, to get that one Axe took me about 6 months from the day I decided I was going to go for it.)
^^^
Compared to stuff like that (which may or may not still exist in current WoW to that point - although I'm sure there is STILL a lot of rep to grind across WoW to unlock various vendors, gear and other content) - the new reputation system isn't that terrible.
Also, one has to remember; they're not doing this to 'TRIBBLE over' anyone per se. This is a system they want to use (and iteratre as the game moves forward) to expand on Endgame/max level content options moving forward I'm sure we'll get other faction grinds in later seasons in the same way they plan to expand Fleet holdings.
Endgame in MMOs is all about repetition and grind. The trick any Dev team tries to do is give you enough variety, so you have choices and can vary your grind. STO is 2 1/2 years old, had a ull year of turmpil that affected development in a VERY negative way; and is just starting to more forward on developing an actual 'endgame' structure (which to be honest, Cryptic has never done before - as much as I loved CoH - under Cryptic (and comntinued under Paragon until 'Going Rogue' where after 7 years they were trying to make an 'endgame' for CoH) NEVER had an endgame.
My point? This is what they're attempting as their endgame mechanics, and they're trying to make something that's more easily expandable and understandable to everyone in the long run.
If the largest complaints are:
- Pricing seems a bit high (and that can be refined and adjusted)
and
- I want tier credit in the new system for all the STF grinding I did.. 9and in my experience I've never seen an MMO give 'credit' in a new system, unless that system gives credit for acquired accolades that players may have gotten over the years.)
IMO - they're not doing a bad job with it. Also, i don't see how trying to finally design a sustainable and supportable endgame structure will be bad for STO in the long run, or will TRIBBLE veteran players, as, if you generally like the game, it gives it a better chance of surviving so we can play it a few more years.
And as for 'new gear' that makes previously earned gear not as good/obsolete -- welcome to MMOs in general as the term in known as 'Mudflation' (refering to online text MUDs with gear where the owner made new better gear) - and has existed in every modern MMO from Meridian 59 to Guild Wars 2.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
This: http://sto.perfectworld.com/cstore
You can hunt it down (with 40+ pages to go through) but apparently the current working price is 36,000 per piece, so 108,000 for a set per toon. Take into account the zen-to-dilithum conversion rates and thats $6.83 at current rates, and more when the cost of dil likely more-than-doubles. Finish your sets now, even turn in EDC for just Mk11 if you have to, because fully kitting out all your toons is going to become impractical when this drops.
I can count on two hands the number of times I've visited Memory Alpha since Season 5. Doffing is the only reason many people even log in. Make it cost astronomically more and they'll quit bothering completely.
Cryptic can't afford to lose any more players. As for recklessly pressing forward and waiting to see what people do, they should look around and see how many of the players they lost in 2010-2011 ever came back. Whole fleets have left this game for less.
Seekrit, you might want to add that loot bags are being removed from STFs as well, reducing it to marks and dilithium only.
Fine, fine, but how much TIME does it take. Not Dollars, not Zen.
36,000 x 3 = 108,000 Dilithium for a Mk XII set
Let's assume that I've only got 2,000 a day in "spare" Dilithium that I can stand to put toward this, due to C-Store conversion, Starbases, or whatever. Is that reasonable for most players?
At that rate, it'll be 54 days before I can afford a full set, after I've achieved T5 in Omega. That's less than 2 months.
... I don't know about you guys, but that actually seems reasonable for "The Best Gear In The Game." Hell, even at double that (1000/day = 104 days = ~3.5mos) it's better than what I've had so far with rotten luck drops in the current STFs. And this way, I know the exact amount of progress I am making each time I receive a Dilithium reward, and can make choices to sacrifice other things if I want to afford it faster.
Seriously - I do NOT see the problem here. And I'm not trying to fanboi on you - I'm just looking at the numbers. I honestly think that the people losing their sh*t over this are just refusing to examine it in detail.
Wait, really? Wow, the excitement of STFs is being drained by the day and replaced with an endless grind. Now I'll never have that "I wonder what I'll get feeling!" again.
sigh...
This is what you get in Season 7:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UDnTJcjPhY&feature=related
I know I have posted the vid before but it is so perfect(world)
or the WHY THE ***K DID I GET THIS AGAIN!!!! ARGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! feeling.
But insane dil prices is "TRIBBLE people over". We used to be able to trade loots to get the STF gear. Now this system is completely removed from the game and we will be forced to use dilithium, the currency you trade for cash. Of course we won't be forced to buy dilithium but the previous way to get that kind of stuff was free since it didn't hurt our refinment cap:
100k per set and 14k dil per weapon. That's really, really too much. We can't build starbases, increase our rep, start the new embassies (dil use is mandatory, there's no project avoiding dil), and stuff our chars. I mean I'm here to play a game, not here to maintain 15 chars or to play to pay... And it's not because I'm not willing to pay to support the game, I just don't like when people change the rules and say that now you'll have to pay for something that used to be free.
Now, the new sets and the romulan reputation systems are fine. I don't know about the prices there yet, and won't buy the stuff if it's too expensive anyway, but since it's completely new I have no complaints about it and do like the fact that way to expand the game. I'd like to keep the current stf stores and loots though, so that I don't feel "screwed over" when I have to buy stuff that used to be free.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Okay 54 days per set. Times two, for a space set and a ground set. Times however many alts you have. I have seven, as an example, so thats over 2 years of grind. For slightly better stats. Or I can just fork over $96 (at CURRENT rates) and buy all the needed dil and reduce (but still not eliminate) my grind.
There is nothing in this game worth that much time or money to me. I can accept $25 for a ship thats account-wide and available immediately. I can even grudgingly accept 'the best gear in the game' coming as an absurdly rare random drop requiring a mind-numbing time investment. Requiring both is not okay. I dunno about quitting altogether, but I doubt I'll be restarting my STF grinds after this hits holodeck. Becomes just one more part of the game thats not for me.
You're complaining that alts make the system expensive. You chose and accepted that cost by rolling up a new character. You don't deserve anything extra just because you chose to have more than one max-level character. Don't confuse the argument by using a variable that was introduced of your own choosing.
Since people love bringing up other MMOs as examples, how about WoW's raid content? If you roll up an alt, do they automatically get free or discounted loot just because you spent months earning raid gear for your main toon? No. You work for it just the same.
The real cost is that $96 you calculated out, divided by the seven toons you've chosen to level up, which equates to under $14. I know people that'd pay that to completely outfit one character in max-level gear, no problem. It's less than a single ship, as you pointed out.
That is faster and more reliable than doing STF's all day just to get this stupid prototype drop.
With 8.000Dilithium a day you will have an entire set in 14 days! That's fast.
When you need more dilithium for your starbase you have 2 options:
1)Log in with a second char and donate his dilithium to the starbase or
2) just wait longer for your set.
Season 7 will only hurt children who need instant gratification.
But what's really hurting are the cost for the doff packs/upgrading the doffs -.-