Another quick update -- as Salami and I both confirmed, you will be getting Dilithium from completing a STF (normal or elite), as it is on Holodeck currently, as well as an option to exchange Elite Omega Marks through Reputation system for additional Dilithium. I do want to point out that the exact amount of Dilithium you'll be receiving is still in discussions and may be different from what is on Holodeck currently. As soon as we have information to provide, we'll let you know
Ok so does this mean i can run Space STF elites for the marks - then use those to Buy(with dilth) the Mark 12 Maco ground set?? The same one people have run 1000 missions for?
Pretty much , yeah .
Yet we still don't know the drop rate of the STF marks , nor how many of them will we need (aka just how many times you will have to run STFs to be eligible for a piece of gear) .
Brandon thanks for responding but I want to hear from someone in charge. Why is Cryptic doing this to us? We are clearly indicating we don't want to grind this way.
Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it! No, seriously! ...Why are you laughing so hard?
Pretty much , yeah .
Yet we still don't know the drop rate of the STF marks , nor how many of them will we need (aka just how many times you will have to run STFs to be eligible for a piece of gear) .
It believe it's 20 per Elite, 25 for optionals. 7 per regular. 10 with optionals.
I dont have access to the new Omega Store so I dont know the costs involved, the new system just eliminated the entirely random nature of Tech Drops so if you complete enough Elites you should technically be able to buy a Mk. XII set.
The problem I have is the added costs over the Marks, they are utter ridiculous and are just another attempt to make us buy Zen.
I can deal with that but it's bloody awful not to recognize the work people spent on accumulating sets and start them at zero when they get less rewards from the new system because they don't NEED the sets.
... it's bloody awful not to recognize the work people spent on accumulating sets and start them at zero when they get less rewards from the new system because they don't NEED the sets.
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Another quick update -- as Salami and I both confirmed, you will be getting Dilithium from completing a STF (normal or elite), as it is on Holodeck currently, as well as an option to exchange Elite Omega Marks through Reputation system for additional Dilithium. I do want to point out that the exact amount of Dilithium you'll be receiving is still in discussions and may be different from what is on Holodeck currently. As soon as we have information to provide, we'll let you know
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Thank you for the dilithium updates, but there are still other questions ahead. I hope these can be solved before season 7 goes up.
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
Those Dilithium numbers for the sets are stiffer than I'd like. Assuming you want one costume's look and another's stats, That's 200k per character. Or 25 Character Days worth of Dil Refinement.
That's less than a month's worth of hitting the 8k cap on Dilithium refining for the Dilithium costs, and the Omega Marks are pretty easy to come by. Would have to re-read the explanation, but I think you get Elite Marks just for completing an Elite STF. It'll take you longer to run the projects than it will to gather the inputs.
Those Dilithium numbers for the sets are stiffer than I'd like. Assuming you want one costume's look and another's stats, That's 200k per character. Or 25 Character Days worth of Dil Refinement.
That is the point. They see that less and less people binge buying on lockboxes each time. Now they want to squeeze every dollar of the people who are willing ignore the lockboxes to just play the grind that they have added. They will nerf the dilithium output of the STFs and add more dilithium costs (without out adding much new content, I will add) to get you to just throw your hands up a buy Zen to convert to dilithium. Welcome to their attempt to reboot the economy yet again because they failed to create a working one the 1st two times.
"Star Trek Online is powered by the most abundant resource in the galaxy . . . Gullibility"
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
Okay math time if I may...
For players who used to hit the 8k refinement cap every day without using the proto borg salvage and techs to turn them into dilithium, the prices to get the current Mk XII gear will go from 0 dilithium to 180k for a full set.
For those who can't hit the cap it raises from 6k for the set + at most 16k for the weapons = 22k dil to 180k.
I'm aware that you've added new stuff to the system, and I think everyone would agree on the fact than you can monetize the new sets as you like since it's not old recycled stuff. But the old one? There's zero reason to do that but getting rid of the old STF store which gives equivalent but cheaper gear than the fleet one. This is so obvious that denying that would be blatant contemptment.
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
An additional 100K in Dilithium? Have you gone mad?! What the hell is wrong with you people?!
With the gear in the Dilithium shop,ships,Doffs assignments,Starbase projects all costing us Dilithium by the bucketload,and Dilithium refinement is still gated at 8000 a day btw,you are adding another 'system' that uses more Dilithium?
We deserve an explanation for this Dilithium tax.
The PWE/Cryptic sweatshop...not where the game is made,but where the game is played!
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
100k isn't that bad. That's about two weeks of grinding to 8k a day. Even if you only play on the weekends, you can get about that much in a month and a half. For people with only a handful of toons, say, five or less, this sounds perfectly reasonable.
It's guys like me with 14+ characters that are gonna get stung by this, and even then, I really don't care enough to bother getting that much for everyone.
I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.
Doth Protest Too much refers to the fact of being overly defensive about something alluding to you actually being that something: Example: Klingons denounce cowardice and dishonor left and right. "Doth Protest too much" indicates that there are a lot of Klingons who are both cowards and honorless.
I only have 3 Characters I want sets on (2 each; 1 already has a set, and I have 3 pieces across the other 2 characters). That's 400k Dil, or 50 Character Refinement days. That's a lot.
100k isn't that bad. That's about two weeks of grinding to 8k a day. Even if you only play on the weekends, you can get about that much in a month and a half. For people with only a handful of toons, say, five or less, this sounds perfectly reasonable.
It's guys like me with 14+ characters that are gonna get stung by this, and even then, I really don't care enough to bother getting that much for everyone.
Methinks people doth protest too much...
I have 17 toons,created back in the day if you wanted to play something different you had to make an alt....
PWE really only caters (and cares) for the F2P crowd...less than five toons indeed.
The PWE/Cryptic sweatshop...not where the game is made,but where the game is played!
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
I have 17 toons,created back in the day if you wanted to play something different you had to make an alt....
PWE really only caters (and cares) for the F2P crowd...less than five toons indeed.
The game stopped being about alts the day character specific Lockbox ships hit the game. It was clearly the shape of things to come. Any lingering doubts died when the second ship was released. Really was anyone surprised at character bound fleet ships at all? They got what they wanted, no more account bound ships.
The problem is that Cryptic can't seem to decide if they want you to spend all your money on ONE character, or spread it around several, at least that's the feeling I get from their decisions. I think lately they are leaning toward "all your cash on one charater" though, mainly because of all the time ship's skin unlocks and console sets. Lets think about this... how many people would want a Wells and a Mobius on the same character? So to incentivize you to get both, the really nice Wells skin can fit the Mobius... which has mostly meh skins. Oh look, they also have consoles that make a set..... If the skins were account wide so your sci alt could at least use the Wells while your tac alt gets the mobius with a nicer skin I would think otherwise. But since its all character bound... i'm sure they want you to spend spend spend it all on one character!
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
So that's 23 days for non lifetime players to grind the maximum 8000 dilithium a day, with out spending it on anything else. Such as DOFF's, fleet expansion, fleet gear, ships, etc. So let's say a month for the average player, and two weeks for a LTS. As people have said, that strikes as a hard grind and restricts what else you can do in the game because of the dilithium requirements elsewhere.
In fact a lot of these changes seem to be restricting what you can do in the game, no matter if you're a F2P, VIP or LTS. It also seems to be a theme of restricting the way players can earn EC in the game. The DOFF grind cost increases seem to be a direct attack on the market for DOFF's on the exchange and the ability to earn EC there.
Having just run an Elite STF on Tribble, and been rewarded with nothing but reputation, I have to say all these changes are a great deal less fun, as well. Gone is the instant gratification of the STF, replaced now with a personal spreadsheet. For a Fleet it's a workable system, it's nice to see other people contribute, it adds something to the game.
For the individual, it's just a pain the neck. After a gruelling STF run, I have no drops as a reward, no real sense of achievement. I don't really know how well I did compared to my fellows (the quality of the drops used to be some kind of indicator) and no certainly no way to generate EC. There is no emotional spike here, it's just, flat.
I then go to my new personal reputation, discover I need various miscellaneous items (and there's still no replicate button on the contribute boxes for items that are in your replicator list, really?!) fill all that in and find I have a day and a half to wait for my reward of points that won't even get me half way to filling tier 1 and actually giving me something?!
Someone please explain to me how this is fun? I'm not seeing it and I'm not feeling it.
If this were to go live, I simply wouldn't bother with it. There's no point to it. I don't need the higher quality gear, I can do all of the content in the game fine with out it. It would be nice to PVP with, but I don't need it that badly and it's not like it's a balanced environment anyway. Yes there are new skills as a reward, but again, it's not like the content requires me to do even more DPS, or die less. It may speed up the grind some, but the grind isn't fun. It just exists.
The grinder DOFF changes make that aspect of the game null and void, it would be simply to much work to engage with it properly so that distraction and enjoyment goes away. But if your design goal is to stop people making EC then it may work for the majority. It will however inflate DOFF prices on the exchange to biblical proportions. The lucky with get very rich and the unlucky will become very poor trying.
You asked for constructive feedback, so here is some. Put completion drops back into the STF's. Make players feel as if it mattered to do them and to do them well, give some instant gratification. You put the effort in to make the loot boxes all different and showy, seems a shame not to use them.
Add leaderboards! To everything! STFs, grouped missions, anything that involves player interaction with each other, add a little bit of competition, give people a reason to want to be a little bit better.
I suppose the individual rep system is to far gone now to tear it up and start again, but if possible give the reward the moment the project is turned in, not make a player wait for a day and a half. If you want to slow the progress, sure, add a day cool down in between each project, that's been end game daily law forever, but don't make some one wait after they filed their interactive spreadsheet properly. And please, please, please! Find a way to add a 'replicate now' box to these projects, it would be a huge quality of life boon. Heck, make it interactive with if you're accessing a trader, too. Just something that doesn't mean opening four windows to achieve one thing. Opening windows is not fun.
Reading through the original post (which I do agree with wholeheartedly) and the comments people have made, what strikes me is that more and more STO is 'encouraging' its players with the stick, the grind and less and less with the carrot, the reward.
This doesn't feel like fun to me, and generally when a game stops being fun, people stop playing.
Comments
Another quick update -- as Salami and I both confirmed, you will be getting Dilithium from completing a STF (normal or elite), as it is on Holodeck currently, as well as an option to exchange Elite Omega Marks through Reputation system for additional Dilithium. I do want to point out that the exact amount of Dilithium you'll be receiving is still in discussions and may be different from what is on Holodeck currently. As soon as we have information to provide, we'll let you know
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Pretty much , yeah .
Yet we still don't know the drop rate of the STF marks , nor how many of them will we need (aka just how many times you will have to run STFs to be eligible for a piece of gear) .
It believe it's 20 per Elite, 25 for optionals. 7 per regular. 10 with optionals.
I can deal with that but it's bloody awful not to recognize the work people spent on accumulating sets and start them at zero when they get less rewards from the new system because they don't NEED the sets.
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Thank you for the dilithium updates, but there are still other questions ahead. I hope these can be solved before season 7 goes up.
EDIT: I'm currently grinding for the Vesta and it is not fun.
LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
The flipside is that when this goes live, 100,000 dil will be more like 2000 ZEN.
so you believe dilth will tank to 50? from the current 158??
That is the point. They see that less and less people binge buying on lockboxes each time. Now they want to squeeze every dollar of the people who are willing ignore the lockboxes to just play the grind that they have added. They will nerf the dilithium output of the STFs and add more dilithium costs (without out adding much new content, I will add) to get you to just throw your hands up a buy Zen to convert to dilithium. Welcome to their attempt to reboot the economy yet again because they failed to create a working one the 1st two times.
I think if it DOESN'T, it will mean that people aren't playing the new systems.
Okay math time if I may...
For players who used to hit the 8k refinement cap every day without using the proto borg salvage and techs to turn them into dilithium, the prices to get the current Mk XII gear will go from 0 dilithium to 180k for a full set.
For those who can't hit the cap it raises from 6k for the set + at most 16k for the weapons = 22k dil to 180k.
I'm aware that you've added new stuff to the system, and I think everyone would agree on the fact than you can monetize the new sets as you like since it's not old recycled stuff. But the old one? There's zero reason to do that but getting rid of the old STF store which gives equivalent but cheaper gear than the fleet one. This is so obvious that denying that would be blatant contemptment.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
An additional 100K in Dilithium? Have you gone mad?! What the hell is wrong with you people?!
With the gear in the Dilithium shop,ships,Doffs assignments,Starbase projects all costing us Dilithium by the bucketload,and Dilithium refinement is still gated at 8000 a day btw,you are adding another 'system' that uses more Dilithium?
We deserve an explanation for this Dilithium tax.
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
My guess: It's currently overshadowing the Glorious but far more expensive Fleet Stores.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
It's guys like me with 14+ characters that are gonna get stung by this, and even then, I really don't care enough to bother getting that much for everyone.
Methinks people doth protest too much...
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Everything that isn't consumable or trivial or on the exchange should cost dilithium.
But everything we do should also award dilithium. And anything meaningfully difficult should award REFINED dilithium.
Doth Protest Too much refers to the fact of being overly defensive about something alluding to you actually being that something: Example: Klingons denounce cowardice and dishonor left and right. "Doth Protest too much" indicates that there are a lot of Klingons who are both cowards and honorless.
I only have 3 Characters I want sets on (2 each; 1 already has a set, and I have 3 pieces across the other 2 characters). That's 400k Dil, or 50 Character Refinement days. That's a lot.
I have 17 toons,created back in the day if you wanted to play something different you had to make an alt....
PWE really only caters (and cares) for the F2P crowd...less than five toons indeed.
Take back your home,end the grind!
Volunteer moderators policing the forums is like a mall cop trying to solve a murder.
The game stopped being about alts the day character specific Lockbox ships hit the game. It was clearly the shape of things to come. Any lingering doubts died when the second ship was released. Really was anyone surprised at character bound fleet ships at all? They got what they wanted, no more account bound ships.
The problem is that Cryptic can't seem to decide if they want you to spend all your money on ONE character, or spread it around several, at least that's the feeling I get from their decisions. I think lately they are leaning toward "all your cash on one charater" though, mainly because of all the time ship's skin unlocks and console sets. Lets think about this... how many people would want a Wells and a Mobius on the same character? So to incentivize you to get both, the really nice Wells skin can fit the Mobius... which has mostly meh skins. Oh look, they also have consoles that make a set..... If the skins were account wide so your sci alt could at least use the Wells while your tac alt gets the mobius with a nicer skin I would think otherwise. But since its all character bound... i'm sure they want you to spend spend spend it all on one character!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ICpoWtFFzc
I'm sorry I could not help myself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swvf3w6hcY4
having less small fleets wont be so bad
So that's 23 days for non lifetime players to grind the maximum 8000 dilithium a day, with out spending it on anything else. Such as DOFF's, fleet expansion, fleet gear, ships, etc. So let's say a month for the average player, and two weeks for a LTS. As people have said, that strikes as a hard grind and restricts what else you can do in the game because of the dilithium requirements elsewhere.
In fact a lot of these changes seem to be restricting what you can do in the game, no matter if you're a F2P, VIP or LTS. It also seems to be a theme of restricting the way players can earn EC in the game. The DOFF grind cost increases seem to be a direct attack on the market for DOFF's on the exchange and the ability to earn EC there.
Having just run an Elite STF on Tribble, and been rewarded with nothing but reputation, I have to say all these changes are a great deal less fun, as well. Gone is the instant gratification of the STF, replaced now with a personal spreadsheet. For a Fleet it's a workable system, it's nice to see other people contribute, it adds something to the game.
For the individual, it's just a pain the neck. After a gruelling STF run, I have no drops as a reward, no real sense of achievement. I don't really know how well I did compared to my fellows (the quality of the drops used to be some kind of indicator) and no certainly no way to generate EC. There is no emotional spike here, it's just, flat.
I then go to my new personal reputation, discover I need various miscellaneous items (and there's still no replicate button on the contribute boxes for items that are in your replicator list, really?!) fill all that in and find I have a day and a half to wait for my reward of points that won't even get me half way to filling tier 1 and actually giving me something?!
Someone please explain to me how this is fun? I'm not seeing it and I'm not feeling it.
If this were to go live, I simply wouldn't bother with it. There's no point to it. I don't need the higher quality gear, I can do all of the content in the game fine with out it. It would be nice to PVP with, but I don't need it that badly and it's not like it's a balanced environment anyway. Yes there are new skills as a reward, but again, it's not like the content requires me to do even more DPS, or die less. It may speed up the grind some, but the grind isn't fun. It just exists.
The grinder DOFF changes make that aspect of the game null and void, it would be simply to much work to engage with it properly so that distraction and enjoyment goes away. But if your design goal is to stop people making EC then it may work for the majority. It will however inflate DOFF prices on the exchange to biblical proportions. The lucky with get very rich and the unlucky will become very poor trying.
You asked for constructive feedback, so here is some. Put completion drops back into the STF's. Make players feel as if it mattered to do them and to do them well, give some instant gratification. You put the effort in to make the loot boxes all different and showy, seems a shame not to use them.
Add leaderboards! To everything! STFs, grouped missions, anything that involves player interaction with each other, add a little bit of competition, give people a reason to want to be a little bit better.
I suppose the individual rep system is to far gone now to tear it up and start again, but if possible give the reward the moment the project is turned in, not make a player wait for a day and a half. If you want to slow the progress, sure, add a day cool down in between each project, that's been end game daily law forever, but don't make some one wait after they filed their interactive spreadsheet properly. And please, please, please! Find a way to add a 'replicate now' box to these projects, it would be a huge quality of life boon. Heck, make it interactive with if you're accessing a trader, too. Just something that doesn't mean opening four windows to achieve one thing. Opening windows is not fun.
Reading through the original post (which I do agree with wholeheartedly) and the comments people have made, what strikes me is that more and more STO is 'encouraging' its players with the stick, the grind and less and less with the carrot, the reward.
This doesn't feel like fun to me, and generally when a game stops being fun, people stop playing.
I do hope I'm mistaken.
That video should be passed around Cryptic office in regards to what Kirk was refering to:
THE KDF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swvf3w6hcY4
Maybe they should let the KDF die and focas just on Fed?