No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
Ah, numbers, so lets do some math.
79 elite runs for marks to get the above, assuming 60 marks per run
113,760 dil for the 79 runs, assuming the eSTFs stay at 1,440 Dilithium per run
That leaves us short 66,240 of Dilithium, or 46 more runs of STFs.
In total, this requires 22.5 days minimum, given the 8,000 Dilithium refining cap and 125 elite STFs.
And not counting the cool down time of the projects, or the EC costs of the other materials you need to run these things. Interesting how you left those out, since they include doffs on some missions, doffs that now also cost Dilithiumto obtain.
You can decide for yourself what you think of all that.
Personally, I like most parts of the new system, and I would like those parts to be expanded to other areas of the game. Like maybe Breen or Jem'Hadar, so we could get mark 12 versions of those sets. And I like that you don't have to run one STF hundreds of times just to get that one last piece of the set.
What I don't like is that you have monetized one more part of the game. What's next? Dilithium for all Doffs, for Bridge officers, for running missions? If this is what Dilithium has become, I for one would rather you get rid of it completely. No costs for starbases or STF "rewards" that have any money tie in, and no way for anyone to buy a ship or anything else in the C-store except with zen from a subscription, LTS, or by paying cold hard cash.
Keep at least the game play as free to play, instead of free to pay.
79 elite runs for marks to get the above, assuming 60 marks per run
113,760 dil for the 79 runs, assuming the eSTFs stay at 1,440 Dilithium per run
That leaves us short 66,240 of Dilithium, or 46 more runs of STFs.
In total, this requires 22.5 days minimum, given the 8,000 Dilithium refining cap and 125 elite STFs.
.
Are you playing different STF's than me - it's currently 1100 dilth for elite - except the bonus day and it's 1500
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
Please answer me this:
So you're saying those who got their Mk12 Sets will automatically be Tier 5?
And what about thsoe who yet to unlock the Elite Sets, and been working very hard since December and only have one or two Tech Pieces? Are you telling us that we have to start over from scratch and that we are out of luck until we unlocked Tier 5?
Not to mention FORCING US TO PAY A TON OF DILITHIUM for stuff we once got for free?
I can't help but to see Cryptic having nothing but contempt for their players in treating them so poorly. Because you could've easily implemented a system that easily complemented people's work so far, instead you guys really gave everyone a massive middle finger and you should be ashamed in treating your customers so poorly.
36k per piece? Wow. At the CURRENT dil-to-zen rates, a full 3-piece set is $6.79 each. Thats not even counting what this will do to the Exchange rates. Ground and space sets on the two free toons is over $25 for what amounts to a stat boost, for more than what a VA ship costs. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha no.
So you're saying those who got their Mk12 Sets will automatically be Tier 5?
And what about thsoe who yet to unlock the Elite Sets, and been working very hard since December and only have one or two Tech Pieces? Are you telling us that we have to start over from scratch and that we are out of luck until we unlocked Tier 5?
Unless I am mistaken, Borticus and the rest of the team are banking on you having the EDCs, salvage and whatever else you have accumulated from those many STFs still, soon to be converted into Omega Marks. These marks you can then apply to your desire to the Reputation system in order to bump up your rep. The conversion of those items will be the representation of STFs you've run, blended down into a fine liquid XP paste and dispensed as raw marks similar to the old marks/merit-to-dilithium conversion. That's how I read it.
However, if you're like most of us who have determined that our STF junk loot (salvage, EDCs, unneeded tech) is no longer needed and can be converted to dilithium to help our fleet bases--and you've converted most or all of it for that purpose--then you're just S.O.L.. Especially if they decide not to use the accolade tracking as another aspect of marks payout or rep.
Just having elite sets does not seem to award rep tiers based on the information available to us right now. Someone with two Elite Ground sets and all their salvage/EDCs/tech sold for dilithium will presumably start out on day 1 as a 0-rep n00blet.
So save that junk, boys and girls (and invited transgendered species)!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
even though malkarris dil was slightly off, 1440 vs 1100...that really only lengthens the amount of time spent.
does anyone there think anything through? from all perspectives? you sit there and talk about people who already have everything...as if that's your biggest worry and the largest part of the player base. you think a new player who sees your shiny new system that costs so much dilithium for everything and then that they're capped at 8k a day is going to want to WORK for that?
i said in the other post this is supposed to be a game, games are challenging but FUN. where is the fun in your new system? where is the challenge? it's just grind for x number of days x number of stf's. yeah, that's math, but there's not a damn thing fun about it.
what happened to saying 'we like giving players choices'? just BS eh? since making alts under your new system just multiplies the time you need to WORK. no choices there is there?
how can you not get this stuff? been out of the gamer loop so long you no longer remember what it's like to play? what? and you defend the decisions that are patently wrong for the game, new players especially...you know, those people you NEED? you even ruin the longevity of people who might have stayed, they might have made alts once they capped...now...all they have to look forward to is yet another long grind per every alt.
facepalm...all i can say..there's no logic, common sense, or game balance/design behind this. it doesn't even make a decent money grab. unless you're going to introduce alt methods to obtain the gear via z-store...or refined dil packs.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
i said in the other post this is supposed to be a game, games are challenging but FUN. where is the fun in your new system? where is the challenge? it's just grind for x number of days x number of stf's. yeah, that's math, but there's not a damn thing fun about it.
what happened to saying 'we like giving players choices'? just BS eh? since making alts under your new system just multiplies the time you need to WORK. no choices there is there?
...
Methinks the following was a rather poignant post, I'm reminded of it in your words:
It seems to me that a lot of the people on this forum come from the time of the subscription model and havent understood how free2play works.
I've spend most of my gaming time over the last year playing a successfull f2p tank game (don't know if i'm allowed to name names here), so let me tell you about what i learned there.
A subscription based game model is very easy to understand:
The user pays a fee to the developer, therefore the developer provides content as good and satifying as possible to the user, therefore the user pays a fee to the developer again and so on till all eternity.
A free2play game works completly different.
First the developer provides content to the player, then the player has to enjoy the content so he keeps playing. At some point then the player has to start paying the developer. Usually this is encouraged by the developer by frustrating the player in some way. Wouldn't it be nice to have this? Wouldn't it be easier not to have to do this? From now on the developer has to balance frustrating the player enough so he pays and satisfying him enough so he keeps playing.
I came to STO, because the developers of the other game fustrated me too much and i decided to look for a less frustrating way to spend my time.
I actually liked a lot of what i saw here.
What i do realize now is, that most of the stuff i like here still comes from the subscription times. Now it seems to me that the developers try to more and more push the f2p model, and that seems to come as quite a shock to the old time players.
For players f2p means that they have to be aware of the motives of the developers, and not trust them to have the players best interest in mind.
The starbase system is a great example for how f2p works, as its just a lot less frustrating if you are willing to pay money.
And it doesn't come as a big suprise to me, that this system will be extended to the doff system and to the advancement/loot system ( called Reputation and apparently a awesome new feature).
On a sidenote, i once read an interview with the lead developer of that other game, where he explicitly stated that the transformation from subscription to f2p doesn't work, because you have to train your players from the beginning (carrot and stick), and i think what happens in this thread is exactly what he ment.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Unless I am mistaken, Borticus and the rest of the team are banking on you having the EDCs, salvage and whatever else you have accumulated from those many STFs still, soon to be converted into Omega Marks. These marks you can then apply to your desire to the Reputation system in order to bump up your rep. The conversion of those items will be the representation of STFs you've run, blended down into a fine liquid XP paste and dispensed as raw marks similar to the old marks/merit-to-dilithium conversion. That's how I read it.
However, if you're like most of us who have determined that our STF junk loot (salvage, EDCs, unneeded tech) is no longer needed and can be converted to dilithium to help our fleet bases--and you've converted most or all of it for that purpose--then you're just S.O.L.. Especially if they decide not to use the accolade tracking as another aspect of marks payout or rep.
Just having elite sets does not seem to award rep tiers based on the information available to us right now. Someone with two Elite Ground sets and all their salvage/EDCs/tech sold for dilithium will presumably start out on day 1 as a 0-rep n00blet.
So save that junk, boys and girls (and invited transgendered species)!
I only have one character that has completed the 300 STFs, and do have a supply of EDCs and Salvage remaining, but not everyone does. And right now there are a ton of people on Holodeck scrambling to turn them in for Dilithium before the grand nerf.
But I think Borticus made a massive error with this new system. If the STFs were new, then this could've worked. Instead, it's mega punishing everyone that's worked hard for months trying to complete the accolades and get their MK12 Sets. And I know for a fact there is still pleny of people who been playing since December that has yet to complete a single set and didn't take a day off.
So I think for the sake of everyone in STO, he better go back to the drawing board and rethink this system.
Space and ground STF items now cost dilithium in addition to the new STF grind currency (36000 dilithium for each Mk XII piece)
Dilithium prices for grinding Duty Officers up from one quality to the next are dramatically increased
All this shameless extra money-grubbing is beginning to take on unsavory forms. Seems PWE is solely fixated on milking us blind. Keep it up, and ere long I will be gone. Not that they'd give a sh*t (there's a sucker born every minute, right?). And maybe that's part of the problem.
No, it really isn't. Here's the numbers you're not seeing:
A full set of Mk XII Gear costs 3000 Marks, 15 Elite Marks, and ~100,000 Dilithium.
Attaining Tier 5 in Omega Rep costs 1,686 Marks, 0 Elite Marks, and ~80,000 Dilithium.
People that have already obtained a full set of the Mk XII gear of their choosing no longer have the need to spend the currency listed in above. In fact, along the way to obtaining that gear, it's incredibly likely that they've picked up a good chunk of EDCs, Salvage and Tech, all of which they have no use for (because they already have their desired gear), and will all be converted into Omega Marks which now have a purpose for them, should they choose to use them.
Their extra 'reward' is the fact that the system will cost them less. Considering the prices involved here, that's not something to be ignored.
With the current Dil to Zen conversion prices, aka buying, which is only going to get better with Season 7 (Not to be confused with Zen to Dil conversion prices which will get worse, aka Selling), EDCs, Common Salvage, Rare Salvage and Prototype Salvage all have pretty good value in the game.
5 EDCs is valued at 100k EC or 528 Dil or $0.0334 - 1 EDC being worth $0.00668 a piece
It is my opinion it is better to buy Retro STF gear with EDCs than Dil as the Dil conversion for other pieces if worth less EC, but worth more Dil.
Math to explain this
Master Keys are worth approx. 1.4m ECs about right now
Master Keys cost 125 Zen to purchase
125 Zen obtained through Dil conversion of EDCs would require a staggering 190 EDCs.
5 EDCs will let you purchase one piece of Retro STF gear priced at 200,000 EC and saleable for 100,000 EC.
To achieve 1,400,000 EC through the purchase and selling of Retro STF gear would only require a less staggering 70 EDC.
With this final point, this would put EDCs, through purchases of Master keys, at a value of $0.0178. A 261% increase in value.
1 Common Ship Piece is valued at 45k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Rare Borg Salvage is valued at 45k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Rare Ship Piece is valued at 50k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Prototype Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces is valued at 55k EC or 2304 Dil or $0.1458
All values are using 158 Dil to Zen ratio.
Edit: Here is the major point of this.
What you're are saying is that these items actually have no value and you're turning them into no value items when season 7 hits.
Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
I only have one character that has completed the 300 STFs, and do have a supply of EDCs and Salvage remaining, but not everyone does. And right now there are a ton of people on Holodeck scrambling to turn them in for Dilithium before the grand nerf.
But I think Borticus made a massive error with this new system. If the STFs were new, then this could've worked. Instead, it's mega punishing everyone that's worked hard for months trying to complete the accolades and get their MK12 Sets. And I know for a fact there is still pleny of people who been playing since December that has yet to complete a single set and didn't take a day off.
So I think for the sake of everyone in STO, he better go back to the drawing board and rethink this system.
Exactly. It's like a restaurant reheating leftovers and taking everyone's plate away while they're still eating to roll out the new menu with clearer pricing. Then saying, "Well, it's fair for everyone who wasn't here for the last meal and you still ate what you ate."
I wouldn't eat at a restaurant that did this. Nobody would.
I refuse to believe anybody internally at Cryptic finds this reasonable unless they have part of their brain turned off.
Methinks piecemeal teasers and reveals of this Reputation system ahead of a proper detailed dev post telling us exactly what to expect were not a good idea.
We have an incomplete image of how the Reputation system will function. Look at the damage it has caused. This thread is a sea of confusion, anger, and questions, with precious little understanding to balance things out. We have enough of a picture to be very rightfully upset over the conclusions we have drawn.
We should not be in a situation of drawing conclusions. That dev blog post with the details about this system had better arrive PDQ, or this is just going to bake onto the psyche of players more and more so that if there is any upside that we are unaware of as yet, it'll be overwhelmed in negative. Not saying that there's good news waiting to come, but questions and uncertainty in a vaccuum of straight and detailed answers breed distrust and animus. And if there's one thing a passionate STO community can generate as fast as anticipation, it's that.
So here we are again. Knowing too much, too soon, and yet not knowing enough to keep from panic.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
The game stopped being about alts the day character specific Lockbox ships hit the game. It was clearly the shape of things to come. Any lingering doubts died when the second ship was released. Really was anyone surprised at character bound fleet ships at all? They got what they wanted, no more account bound ships.
The problem is that Cryptic can't seem to decide if they want you to spend all your money on ONE character, or spread it around several, at least that's the feeling I get from their decisions. I think lately they are leaning toward "all your cash on one charater" though, mainly because of all the time ship's skin unlocks and console sets. Lets think about this... how many people would want a Wells and a Mobius on the same character? So to incentivize you to get both, the really nice Wells skin can fit the Mobius... which has mostly meh skins. Oh look, they also have consoles that make a set..... If the skins were account wide so your sci alt could at least use the Wells while your tac alt gets the mobius with a nicer skin I would think otherwise. But since its all character bound... i'm sure they want you to spend spend spend it all on one character!
And this is their mistake: they should actually entice folks to make alts . Why ? Because the more characters one has the bigger the likelihood it is to spend cash in the Z-store for at least ONE of those characters .
With the current Dil to Zen conversion prices, aka buying, which is only going to get better with Season 7 (Not to be confused with Zen to Dil conversion prices which will get worse, aka Selling), EDCs, Common Salvage, Rare Salvage and Prototype Salvage all have pretty good value in the game.
5 EDCs is valued at 100k EC or 528 Dil or $0.00334 - 1 EDC being worth $0.0066 a piece
It is my opinion it is better to buy Retro STF gear with EDCs than Dil as the Dil conversion for other pieces if worth less EC, but worth more Dil.
Math to explain this
Master Keys are worth approx. 1.4m ECs about right now
Master Keys cost 125 Zen to purchase
125 Zen obtained through Dil conversion of EDCs would require a staggering 190 EDCs.
5 EDCs will let you purchase one piece of Retro STF gear priced at 200,000 EC and saleable for 100,000 EC.
To achieve 1,400,000 EC through the purchase and selling of Retro STF gear would only require a less staggering 70 EDC.
With this final point, this would put EDCs, through purchases of Master keys, at a value of $0.0178.
A 261% increase in value.
1 Common Ship Piece is valued at 45k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Rare Borg Salvage is valued at 45k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Rare Ship Piece is valued at 50k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Prototype Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces is valued at 55k EC or 2304 Dil or $0.1458
All values are using 158 Dil to Zen ratio.
Edit: Here is the major point of this. What you're are saying is that these items actually have no value and you're turning them into no value items when season 7 hits.
I feel like Cryptic refuses to treat the monetary aspects of their game with any seriousness. By that standard, Lobi store weapons should be Mk XII purples at the minimum.
They hide behind the "We're artists, not accountants" approach when it's convenient for dodging consistency of value analysis. Then swap to "You gotta pay the bills somehow" when faced with artistic questions.
This all reminds me of the final ep of STOKED... but really, who didn't see this TRIBBLE coming?
I give STO maybe another year before it is dead due to PWE's greed.
They obviously have no intent in continuing the game beyond the short term milking period. A company serious about it's future would never make these choices.
>>>UniqueOne-Providing you with easy PVP kills since Feb 2012<<<
I feel like Cryptic refuses to treat the monetary aspects of their game with any seriousness. By that standard, Lobi store weapons should be Mk XII purples at the minimum.
They hide behind the "We're artists, not accountants" approach when it's convenient for dodging consistency of value analysis. Then swap to "You gotta pay the bills somehow" when faced with artistic questions.
I have 1 toon with 250 STF's - should I bother grinding the other 50 out before the switch?
I have 1 toon with 250 STF's - should I bother grinding the other 50 out before the switch?
You could be converting all Common Ship Salvage Pieces, Rare Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces and Prototype Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces to Dil.
Convert EDCs into energy credits through the buying and selling of Retro STF gear.
Wait for Season 7 and watch the Buying price of Zen go down. Because we're going to need more Dil with their new changes, which will make Dil more valuable.
Edit: Edit 2: Math at night, don't do it.
Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
You could be converting all Common Ship Salvage Pieces, Rare Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces and Prototype Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces to Dil.
Convert EDCs into energy credits through the buying and selling of Retro STF gear.
Wait for Season 7 and watch the Buying price of Zen go down. Because we're going to need more Dil with their new changes, which will make Dil more valuable.
Edit: I messed up on my math. One EDC is only worth $0.000668 a piece, making it a 2610% increase if you buy master keys with EC instead of with Dil to Zen.
Let me repeat that again. A 2610% increase in value of EDCs if you convert them to Energy Credits and buy Master Keys instead of converting them to Dil to buy Zen.
You should still be able to get it, I don't think they're getting rid of that.
It's way to late for me to be doing math...
Encrypted Data Chips to Dil = 105.8 Dil = 0.668 Zen or $0.00668 | EDCs to Energy Credits = 25,000 EC | Master Key = 125 Zen or 1,4m EC | 190 EDCs = 126.9 Zen | 70 EDCs = 1,4m EC
As a refugee from Perfect World, it pains me to see some of the same practices that ruined that game coming to Star Trek. For those of you complaining about how long it will take to grind gear (I think someone mentioned 22 days), allow me to reassure you that that is nothing. Back in Perfect World, if you didn't aggressively merchant or throw tons of money at the game it would take you months and months of grinding to get what you needed to make some of the best weapons and armor. For the top level stuff (Rank 9 gear) unless you were part of one of the four or five biggest factions (fleets) you had no hope of achieving it in-game. You had to pay for it with real $. Oh, and by real $ I do mean hundreds of dollars. Not $20 for a ship. My Rank 8 Weapon, Armor, and Reputation cost the equivalent of about $80.
The first thing I noticed when I came over to Star Trek was the lockboxes. These same items ruined the Perfect World economy driving prices through the roof when exchanging in-game coin for zen. The entire game and economy revolve around those boxes in Perfect World.
I hope that the developers of Star Trek will continue to add lots of great things to this game. I really really enjoy it so far. My wife and I have really only been playing it for a couple of months, but it's fun. Just, please don't start adding extra charges to items and gear already in the game. It's going to make a lot of people unhappy. Just look at this size of this thread that was only started yesterday. I know Perfect World is a pretty demanding company, but please realize that unlike their game, which is suffering from a drasticaly declining player-base, this game, Star Trek, cares about its players and its fans.
To sum up: No one here is opposed to you making profit from your game. We are perfectly willing to pay for content that is priced reasonably. Just don't take us for granted.
As a refugee from Perfect World, it pains me to see some of the same practices that ruined that game coming to Star Trek. For those of you complaining about how long it will take to grind gear (I think someone mentioned 22 days), allow me to reassure you that that is nothing. Back in Perfect World, if you didn't aggressively merchant or throw tons of money at the game it would take you months and months of grinding to get what you needed to make some of the best weapons and armor. For the top level stuff (Rank 9 gear) unless you were part of one of the four or five biggest factions (fleets) you had no hope of achieving it in-game. You had to pay for it with real $. Oh, and by real $ I do mean hundreds of dollars. Not $20 for a ship. My Rank 8 Weapon, Armor, and Reputation cost the equivalent of about $80.
The first thing I noticed when I came over to Star Trek was the lockboxes. These same items ruined the Perfect World economy driving prices through the roof when exchanging in-game coin for zen. The entire game and economy revolve around those boxes in Perfect World.
I hope that the developers of Star Trek will continue to add lots of great things to this game. I really really enjoy it so far. My wife and I have really only been playing it for a couple of months, but it's fun. Just, please don't start adding extra charges to items and gear already in the game. It's going to make a lot of people unhappy. Just look at this size of this thread that was only started yesterday. I know Perfect World is a pretty demanding company, but please realize that unlike their game, which is suffering from a drasticaly declining player-base, this game, Star Trek, cares about its players and its fans.
To sum up: No one here is opposed to you making profit from your game. We are perfectly willing to pay for content that is priced reasonably. Just don't take us for granted.
Much love,
Quinn
Thank you for that bit of input, Quinn.
I fear it may be easily overlooked here when there's so much cynicism flying. Though who knows? Maybe this thread's size may get the right eyes to see and consider. I remain an optimist. Someone has to be.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
I feel we got sold out with this new system which tells us that our STF time investment is worthless if we have to start back at square one with this tier-gated and time-gated store stuff for STF gear. It's not fair Cryptic.
All these replys for sure hurt some of the buzz going into Season 7. Considering this was the big update that was suposed to give us tons of stuff to do all we're seeing so far is more ways to take money out of our pocket.
I think we need alot more good news about season 7 so folks will calm a bit down. But I recomend everyone watch the updates to tribble to see how this season forms shapes up.
Comments
Lol, when it comes to KDF and Cryptic...I look at it like Worf on the Enterprise D (Picard and Crew being Cryptic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edflm7Hh3hs&feature=related
That is fantastic - yes worf plays the part of this games KDF players - the others Cryptic - it's perfect!!
Ah, numbers, so lets do some math.
79 elite runs for marks to get the above, assuming 60 marks per run
113,760 dil for the 79 runs, assuming the eSTFs stay at 1,440 Dilithium per run
That leaves us short 66,240 of Dilithium, or 46 more runs of STFs.
In total, this requires 22.5 days minimum, given the 8,000 Dilithium refining cap and 125 elite STFs.
And not counting the cool down time of the projects, or the EC costs of the other materials you need to run these things. Interesting how you left those out, since they include doffs on some missions, doffs that now also cost Dilithiumto obtain.
You can decide for yourself what you think of all that.
Personally, I like most parts of the new system, and I would like those parts to be expanded to other areas of the game. Like maybe Breen or Jem'Hadar, so we could get mark 12 versions of those sets. And I like that you don't have to run one STF hundreds of times just to get that one last piece of the set.
What I don't like is that you have monetized one more part of the game. What's next? Dilithium for all Doffs, for Bridge officers, for running missions? If this is what Dilithium has become, I for one would rather you get rid of it completely. No costs for starbases or STF "rewards" that have any money tie in, and no way for anyone to buy a ship or anything else in the C-store except with zen from a subscription, LTS, or by paying cold hard cash.
Keep at least the game play as free to play, instead of free to pay.
Nouveau riche LTS member
Are you playing different STF's than me - it's currently 1100 dilth for elite - except the bonus day and it's 1500
Please answer me this:
So you're saying those who got their Mk12 Sets will automatically be Tier 5?
And what about thsoe who yet to unlock the Elite Sets, and been working very hard since December and only have one or two Tech Pieces? Are you telling us that we have to start over from scratch and that we are out of luck until we unlocked Tier 5?
Not to mention FORCING US TO PAY A TON OF DILITHIUM for stuff we once got for free?
I can't help but to see Cryptic having nothing but contempt for their players in treating them so poorly. Because you could've easily implemented a system that easily complemented people's work so far, instead you guys really gave everyone a massive middle finger and you should be ashamed in treating your customers so poorly.
What happens to someone who has 1/3rd or 2/3rds of a Mark XII set?
"Back of the line, Jack. It's fair to new players who have never done an STF and that's all that matters."
A perfect analogy. I loled pretty hard watching this. Delay that, that's an order this, denied that, no this, etc. Hahaha.
You for got the perverbial kick to the rear as they are "guiding" the person to the back of the line.
Do I need to post the customer service video again for you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UDnTJcjPhY&feature=related
Unless I am mistaken, Borticus and the rest of the team are banking on you having the EDCs, salvage and whatever else you have accumulated from those many STFs still, soon to be converted into Omega Marks. These marks you can then apply to your desire to the Reputation system in order to bump up your rep. The conversion of those items will be the representation of STFs you've run, blended down into a fine liquid XP paste and dispensed as raw marks similar to the old marks/merit-to-dilithium conversion. That's how I read it.
However, if you're like most of us who have determined that our STF junk loot (salvage, EDCs, unneeded tech) is no longer needed and can be converted to dilithium to help our fleet bases--and you've converted most or all of it for that purpose--then you're just S.O.L.. Especially if they decide not to use the accolade tracking as another aspect of marks payout or rep.
Just having elite sets does not seem to award rep tiers based on the information available to us right now. Someone with two Elite Ground sets and all their salvage/EDCs/tech sold for dilithium will presumably start out on day 1 as a 0-rep n00blet.
So save that junk, boys and girls (and invited transgendered species)!
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
even though malkarris dil was slightly off, 1440 vs 1100...that really only lengthens the amount of time spent.
does anyone there think anything through? from all perspectives? you sit there and talk about people who already have everything...as if that's your biggest worry and the largest part of the player base. you think a new player who sees your shiny new system that costs so much dilithium for everything and then that they're capped at 8k a day is going to want to WORK for that?
i said in the other post this is supposed to be a game, games are challenging but FUN. where is the fun in your new system? where is the challenge? it's just grind for x number of days x number of stf's. yeah, that's math, but there's not a damn thing fun about it.
what happened to saying 'we like giving players choices'? just BS eh? since making alts under your new system just multiplies the time you need to WORK. no choices there is there?
how can you not get this stuff? been out of the gamer loop so long you no longer remember what it's like to play? what? and you defend the decisions that are patently wrong for the game, new players especially...you know, those people you NEED? you even ruin the longevity of people who might have stayed, they might have made alts once they capped...now...all they have to look forward to is yet another long grind per every alt.
facepalm...all i can say..there's no logic, common sense, or game balance/design behind this. it doesn't even make a decent money grab. unless you're going to introduce alt methods to obtain the gear via z-store...or refined dil packs.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
Methinks the following was a rather poignant post, I'm reminded of it in your words:
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
I only have one character that has completed the 300 STFs, and do have a supply of EDCs and Salvage remaining, but not everyone does. And right now there are a ton of people on Holodeck scrambling to turn them in for Dilithium before the grand nerf.
But I think Borticus made a massive error with this new system. If the STFs were new, then this could've worked. Instead, it's mega punishing everyone that's worked hard for months trying to complete the accolades and get their MK12 Sets. And I know for a fact there is still pleny of people who been playing since December that has yet to complete a single set and didn't take a day off.
So I think for the sake of everyone in STO, he better go back to the drawing board and rethink this system.
All this shameless extra money-grubbing is beginning to take on unsavory forms. Seems PWE is solely fixated on milking us blind. Keep it up, and ere long I will be gone. Not that they'd give a sh*t (there's a sucker born every minute, right?). And maybe that's part of the problem.
With the current Dil to Zen conversion prices, aka buying, which is only going to get better with Season 7 (Not to be confused with Zen to Dil conversion prices which will get worse, aka Selling), EDCs, Common Salvage, Rare Salvage and Prototype Salvage all have pretty good value in the game.
5 EDCs is valued at 100k EC or 528 Dil or $0.0334 - 1 EDC being worth $0.00668 a piece
It is my opinion it is better to buy Retro STF gear with EDCs than Dil as the Dil conversion for other pieces if worth less EC, but worth more Dil.
Math to explain this
Master Keys are worth approx. 1.4m ECs about right now
Master Keys cost 125 Zen to purchase
125 Zen obtained through Dil conversion of EDCs would require a staggering 190 EDCs.
5 EDCs will let you purchase one piece of Retro STF gear priced at 200,000 EC and saleable for 100,000 EC.
To achieve 1,400,000 EC through the purchase and selling of Retro STF gear would only require a less staggering 70 EDC.
With this final point, this would put EDCs, through purchases of Master keys, at a value of $0.0178.
A 261% increase in value.
1 Common Ship Piece is valued at 45k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Rare Borg Salvage is valued at 45k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Rare Ship Piece is valued at 50k EC or 1056 Dil or $0.0668
1 Prototype Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces is valued at 55k EC or 2304 Dil or $0.1458
All values are using 158 Dil to Zen ratio.
Edit: Here is the major point of this.
Exactly. It's like a restaurant reheating leftovers and taking everyone's plate away while they're still eating to roll out the new menu with clearer pricing. Then saying, "Well, it's fair for everyone who wasn't here for the last meal and you still ate what you ate."
I wouldn't eat at a restaurant that did this. Nobody would.
I refuse to believe anybody internally at Cryptic finds this reasonable unless they have part of their brain turned off.
We have an incomplete image of how the Reputation system will function. Look at the damage it has caused. This thread is a sea of confusion, anger, and questions, with precious little understanding to balance things out. We have enough of a picture to be very rightfully upset over the conclusions we have drawn.
We should not be in a situation of drawing conclusions. That dev blog post with the details about this system had better arrive PDQ, or this is just going to bake onto the psyche of players more and more so that if there is any upside that we are unaware of as yet, it'll be overwhelmed in negative. Not saying that there's good news waiting to come, but questions and uncertainty in a vaccuum of straight and detailed answers breed distrust and animus. And if there's one thing a passionate STO community can generate as fast as anticipation, it's that.
So here we are again. Knowing too much, too soon, and yet not knowing enough to keep from panic.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
And this is their mistake: they should actually entice folks to make alts . Why ? Because the more characters one has the bigger the likelihood it is to spend cash in the Z-store for at least ONE of those characters .
I feel like Cryptic refuses to treat the monetary aspects of their game with any seriousness. By that standard, Lobi store weapons should be Mk XII purples at the minimum.
They hide behind the "We're artists, not accountants" approach when it's convenient for dodging consistency of value analysis. Then swap to "You gotta pay the bills somehow" when faced with artistic questions.
I give STO maybe another year before it is dead due to PWE's greed.
They obviously have no intent in continuing the game beyond the short term milking period. A company serious about it's future would never make these choices.
I have 1 toon with 250 STF's - should I bother grinding the other 50 out before the switch?
You could be converting all Common Ship Salvage Pieces, Rare Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces and Prototype Borg Salvage/Ship Pieces to Dil.
Convert EDCs into energy credits through the buying and selling of Retro STF gear.
Wait for Season 7 and watch the Buying price of Zen go down. Because we're going to need more Dil with their new changes, which will make Dil more valuable.
Edit: Edit 2: Math at night, don't do it.
I was actually talking about the 300 STF accolade
You should still be able to get it, I don't think they're getting rid of that.
It's way to late for me to be doing math...
The first thing I noticed when I came over to Star Trek was the lockboxes. These same items ruined the Perfect World economy driving prices through the roof when exchanging in-game coin for zen. The entire game and economy revolve around those boxes in Perfect World.
I hope that the developers of Star Trek will continue to add lots of great things to this game. I really really enjoy it so far. My wife and I have really only been playing it for a couple of months, but it's fun. Just, please don't start adding extra charges to items and gear already in the game. It's going to make a lot of people unhappy. Just look at this size of this thread that was only started yesterday. I know Perfect World is a pretty demanding company, but please realize that unlike their game, which is suffering from a drasticaly declining player-base, this game, Star Trek, cares about its players and its fans.
To sum up: No one here is opposed to you making profit from your game. We are perfectly willing to pay for content that is priced reasonably. Just don't take us for granted.
Much love,
Quinn
Thank you for that bit of input, Quinn.
I fear it may be easily overlooked here when there's so much cynicism flying. Though who knows? Maybe this thread's size may get the right eyes to see and consider. I remain an optimist. Someone has to be.
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
I think we need alot more good news about season 7 so folks will calm a bit down. But I recomend everyone watch the updates to tribble to see how this season forms shapes up.