I have 15 toons... and 6 dedicated healers.... 2 of them in cruisers... 1 of them in a carrier cause frankly the Tholian carrier is a better heal platform.
Yes I think adding an ES global with EPTS and RSP was a good move. I don't like that there is Zero room for engi healers anymore... which would be why you havn't seen my healers in action... there useless engies... If I am going to play healer these days I am mostly doing in my sci ship, as secondary healz.
I honestly find it hillarious that people seem to think there is more dps these days then there used to be... honestly what changes where these... was it the Omega nerf ? or tac team neutering beta or the CSV number correction... OR the removal of ACC from faw calculations? Oh right no it wasn't any of those things it was the fact that weapons got bumped to mk xii.... and instead of doing a base 97dmg a turret now does a base 104... yes I see much more incoming fire your right. For the recored I have blue mk xi consoles... so anyone saying mk xii purples ones add much dps should take another look at the score board next time I'm in a match with them.
I will say what has changed is people perceptions of escorts... more people are flying them... and CRUTCH skills like RSP Tac Team... and BFI doffs have allowed Crappy pilots to look good and do 90% of the dps of the big boys... .THAT is what is responsible for the increase in Fire power ... and that alone... remove the crutches and all those crappy pilots will go back to there cruisers.
PS... you will see me in MechW when it launches... right now I believe its in beta is it not.
I have 15 toons... and 6 dedicated healers.... 2 of them in cruisers... 1 of them in a carrier cause frankly the Tholian carrier is a better heal platform.
Yes I think adding an ES global with EPTS and RSP was a good move. I don't like that there is Zero room for engi healers anymore... which would be why you havn't seen my healers in action... there useless engies... If I am going to play healer these days I am mostly doing in my sci ship, as secondary healz.
I honestly find it hillarious that people seem to think there is more dps these days then there used to be... honestly what changes where these... was it the Omega nerf ? or the CSV number correction... OR the removal of ACC from faw calculations? Oh right no it wasn't any of those things it was the fact that weapons got bumped to mk xii.... and instead of doing a base 97dmg a turret now does a base 104... yes I see much more incoming fire your right.
I will say what has changed is people perceptions of escorts... more people are flying them... and CRUTCH skills like RSP Tac Team... and BFI doffs have allowed Crappy pilots to look good and do 90% of the dps of the big boys... .THAT is what is responsible for the increase in Fire power ... and that alone... remove the crutches and all those crappy pilots will go back to there cruisers.
PS... you will see me in MechW when it launches... right now I believe its in beta is it not.
15 seconds is far too long of a shared CD. It's a Dumb TRIBBLE Move, by devs that follow a Spreadsheet, and not the actual game dynamics.
Infact it goes so far as to kick Engies in the nuts even further than they already were.
There is. Seriously man, just from Rarity alone we got a 15 percent Bonus to DPS across the board. From an upgrade from X, to XII we got another 5 percent increase. Consoles, we went from blue X, to purple XIIs which after 4 consoles adds another 10 percent DPS. That's a 30 percent DPS increase. That all stacks, linearly with almost 0 diminishing returns. Every Single Ship, has these benefits if it's fully kitted out. The only thing healing got? Remember it got a Nerf. 8 to 12 percent on Resist skills for the shield heals across the board.
To further illustrate the point, we went from DHCs that do, 1,050 DPS, to DHCs that do almost 1270 DPS. We lost APO3, and Gained CRF3. (remember it got a boost. It used to only add 30 percent. back int he Mk X days. now it's +50 percent) we went from Turrets that dealt 480, to turrets that now deal 580 DPS. We went from beams that did 720 to almost 900 dps. Now you tell me, damage wasn't Boosted.
And it gained.... TT (which can be Pierced by a high enough spike shot), and shield distribution officers.
Riiight. Since I was such a Terrible pilot that I embarassed your entire guild at one point or another in kerrat, sometimes to at a time before TT came in. If I was Terrible what did that make your boys? Failboats? Go ahead, try to tank without TT and EPTS. See how long it gets you. If you like we can both log in right now and I can Illuminate you, and consequently leave you naught but a trail of space dust and debris that scratches my paint as I fly through what's left of your tankless ship.
Also, Beta is no excuse. If I, who have been wronged by this Dump Pile of a company so often could give Pirhana a shake and Buy a founders pack, so can you.
15 seconds is far too long of a shared CD. It's a Dumb TRIBBLE Move, by devs that follow a Spreadsheet, and not the actual game dynamics.
Infact it goes so far as to kick Engies in the nuts even further than they already were.
There is. Seriously man, just from Rarity alone we got a 15 percent Bonus to DPS across the board. From an upgrade from X, to XII we got another 5 percent increase. Consoles, we went from blue X, to purple XIIs which after 4 consoles adds another 10 percent DPS. That's a 30 percent DPS increase. That all stacks, linearly with 0 diminishing returns. Every Single Ship, has these benefits if it's fully kitted out. The only thing healing got? Remember it got a Nerf. 8 to 12 percent on Resist skills for the shield heals across the board.
And it gained.... TT (which can be Pierced by a high enough spike shot), and shield distribution officers.
Riiight. Since I was such a Terrible pilot that I embarassed your entire guild at one point or another in kerrat, sometimes to at a time before TT came in. If I was Terrible what did that make your boys? Failboats? Go ahead, try to tank without TT and EPTS. See how long it gets you. If you like we can both log in right now and I can Illuminate you, and consequently leave you naught but a trail of space dust and debris that scratches my paint as I fly through what's left of your tankless ship.
Yet, as they were working on fixing the old shield glitch they had released the shield distro doffs even post nerf they still repair more than TSS3 and that's just 1 procing. They buffed rsp. They buffed ships console slots (even before fleet ships when c-store ships were all buffed). Many ships had their hulls directly buffed (c-store that is). Then consumable + hulls were add. The 35% console was rebuffed after skill tree change, then changed to stacking 18% hps. STF shields were released. Lotto ships came w/their buffed defenses. More C-Store ships released many w/uni slots. Sorry, I'm not buying damage has been increased more than defense even w/tet gliders. Borg procs were "nerfed" which makes them more likely to trigger when you need them the most. Hazzard Doffs were added. Sci resists added. Broken ~100% hit FaW was fixed.
I remember what it was like to fight w/a B'rel pre F2P and after w/STF gear, Doffs, Sci Debuff resists et al. It makes things night and day, and that's on the most fragile ship in the game. Really it's using Tech Doffs w/Aux2Batt to reduce cooldowns of high alphas that boosts damage potential, but it also reduces repair/resist cooldowns.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Also, Beta is no excuse. If I, who have been wronged by this Dump Pile of a company so often could give Pirhana a shake and Buy a founders pack, so can you.
I don't play games in beta anymore... I did a year of tor beta, and it ruined that game for me. I'll see ya launch day. Till then take some xanax or something. lol
I don't play games in beta anymore... I did a year of tor beta, and it ruined that game for me. I'll see ya launch day. Till then take some xanax or something. lol
Dude it kicks TRIBBLE. Seriously, get it NAO.
If you like scifi pew pew and loved Mechwarrior 2, 3, 4 you have 0 excuse for not playing it already. It's better than most Finished games. Sure as hell beats the pants off of this one.
ES can still be used with EPtS without up time loss with 2 copies of ES, so only really cruisers can use it anymore, or sci ships with a LTC eng. even RSP 1 lasts 9.4 seconds if you have 99 in the skill that buffs shield heals, so it will only ever leave you about 5 seconds without cover. so it isn't quite as game breaking as i first suspected. but it was the WRONG way to nerf shield healing and tanking, wile buffing hull tanking. lowering ES duration and up time, reverting RSP back to its old duration, thats what they should do.
ES can still be used with EPtS without up time loss with 2 copies of ES, so only really cruisers can use it anymore, or sci ships with a LTC eng. even RSP 1 lasts 9.4 seconds if you have 99 in the skill that buffs shield heals, so it will only ever leave you about 5 seconds without cover. so it isn't quite as game breaking as i first suspected. but it was the WRONG way to nerf shield healing and tanking, wile buffing hull tanking. lowering ES duration and up time, reverting RSP back to its old duration, thats what they should do.
The problem is it completely hoses any use of ES to save someone if the enemy team does a faked out alpha run. ES, like the flipside, of Damage skills had an advantage of being able to be rippled or cycled in at varying times.
That ability is gone with the current patch. Which is a Huge Problem.
Something has to oppose the ultimate killers. If an escort can kill a cruiser with impunity and cruiser has nothing to save himself or nothing to kille the escort before it kills him then what reason there is to use cruiser?
Crazy heals are needed to stop all this crazy damage escorts are dishing out. Look at this from this point: escorts cannot kill cruiser. But what can an cruiser do to escort? Use DEM and make escort die from laughter? Or Aceton the damage from escort sitting on his rear... oh, wait, Aceton is 90 deg. Then perhaps tickle him with beams?
Crazy amount of healing is the only way cruiser can stop escort. From blowing him or his friend. If you wanna nerf healing, nerf the damage output of escorts. Or at least their tanking abilities so that cruiser without heals have a snowball chance to do something about escort shooting him or some of his temamates.
Oh, and I see that players flying primarly Klinks loved this change. After all it made their game a lot easier with Feds having something less to stop their pew pew.
No one wants to play heal boats. Cruisers pilots want to more than the assumed role. **** heal boats. Currently Cruisers suck in terms of mechanics and design. The current role needs to be severely shattered and changed up.
And now we have a crazy situation where cruisers can have all the +shield and +hull abilities (Aux2SIF permanence) and be completely indestructible.
The problem is that although they maybe could be nearly indestuctable they are still pointless, since they cannot strike back.
Cryptic seriously needs to align escorts and cruiser instead of making them even more extreme.
I know no one who wants to fly a cruiser just to heal other players, while they do the fun part of a fight.
They do that job to make their team succesful but it's not really fun to start with.
Cryptic really needs to rethink the role of cruiser in their game.
In my opinion they need a huge damage boost in exchange of survivability.
Escorts on the other hand need a bit more survivability in exchange of some firepower. In the end both ship types should be much more alike in damage and survivability. Just their approach on how they generate damage and survivability should be different.
Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
All I am hearing is I don't wanna die I don't wanna die.. .I don't wanna die ever. lol
yup. STO PvP needs people to die faster. Faster speed, noone's safe.
I actually think just removing EPtoS resistance alltogether would have been the best move. Would have reduce survivability across the board, and forced people to think about counters and such.
To give an example from PvE: When the revamped ground STFs came out, they had ?ber-one-shotting Elite drones. Regular "run in and shoot-heal-shoot-heal" didn't work anymore. So what happened? Damage negating, that's what! People started using Weapons Malfunction and Supressing Fire. Natural Cover and Cover Shields became part of the game again! We got a challenge, and worked through it!
If ships were weaker, we would have been forced to do the same in space PvP. Incoming escort? Target Weapons! Acetone Field! Hide behind that asteroid! Evasive! Evasive! Subspace jump! Jam Sensors! etc.
Right now, these techniques are rendered obsolete for two reasons: First, you will get more mileage out of heal-spam-tanking. Second: You need all those boff slots to have any chance to break through heal-spam-tanking.
All those percentages are (besides being slightly inflated) ofc based off the base damage of the weapon. Before even captain skill is added. Actual damage output of a fully buffed tac captain is still no more than 10% higher than after the original Cannon-power-nerf (season 1.1 i think? And burst damage is lower than at launch, when it was insane)
Healing got (off the top of my head)
- Reworked long range ES that don't break when leaving range for a second
- BFI
- TT distribute
- TT making APB and FoMM junk
- Resists from shield power
- (depending on how far back we want to go: it got self-TSSing too)
- healing pets
- equipment sets doing healing
- sets giving bonus defence
- Escorts got insane bonus defence values
- Access to more power through consoles and sets, increasing bonus defence and shield resist.
- Shield cap consoles
- Ships with more shields
- Ships with more hull
All increase in damage by better equipment is more than compensated by the increased stats of equipment that make you survive. And on top of that we lost two of the major tac debuffs AND got a ton of new heals, resists and bonus defence.
Seriously, heavy damage dealers got a 10%ish boost, but healing is freaking doubled!
I know no one who wants to fly a cruiser just to heal other players, while they do the fun part of a fight.
They do that job to make their team succesful but it's not really fun to start with.
I do. I enjoy flying around battles, shooting at the enemies, but also keeping an eye on my fleetmates and seeing who is in trouble, trying to get to them and throw them some help before they explode. That's why I played an Eng, not a Tac.
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yup. STO PvP needs people to die faster. Faster speed, noone's safe.
I actually think just removing EPtoS resistance alltogether would have been the best move. Would have reduce survivability across the board, and forced people to think about counters and such.
To give an example from PvE: When the revamped ground STFs came out, they had ?ber-one-shotting Elite drones. Regular "run in and shoot-heal-shoot-heal" didn't work anymore. So what happened? Damage negating, that's what! People started using Weapons Malfunction and Supressing Fire. Natural Cover and Cover Shields became part of the game again! We got a challenge, and worked through it!
If ships were weaker, we would have been forced to do the same in space PvP. Incoming escort? Target Weapons! Acetone Field! Hide behind that asteroid! Evasive! Evasive! Subspace jump! Jam Sensors! etc.
Right now, these techniques are rendered obsolete for two reasons: First, you will get more mileage out of heal-spam-tanking. Second: You need all those boff slots to have any chance to break through heal-spam-tanking.
All those percentages are (besides being slightly inflated) ofc based off the base damage of the weapon. Before even captain skill is added. Actual damage output of a fully buffed tac captain is still no more than 10% higher than after the original Cannon-power-nerf (season 1.1 i think? And burst damage is lower than at launch, when it was insane)
Healing got (off the top of my head)
- Reworked long range ES that don't break when leaving range for a second
- BFI
- TT distribute
- TT making APB and FoMM junk
- Resists from shield power
- (depending on how far back we want to go: it got self-TSSing too)
- healing pets
- equipment sets doing healing
- sets giving bonus defence
- Escorts got insane bonus defence values
- Access to more power through consoles and sets, increasing bonus defence and shield resist.
- Shield cap consoles
- Ships with more shields
- Ships with more hull
All increase in damage by better equipment is more than compensated by the increased stats of equipment that make you survive. And on top of that we lost two of the major tac debuffs AND got a ton of new heals, resists and bonus defence.
Seriously, heavy damage dealers got a 10%ish boost, but healing is freaking doubled!
I'm not counting Pre 1.2 for DPS. Nor am I counting bugged as all hell CSV or DBB FAW.
Also, again since 1.2 DHCs went from 1050 to 1270. That's a 200 DPS Gain Per DHC alone. That also coincidentally affects skills that have damage multipliers. I don't think that's too hard to figure out. To say nothing of the unarguable Boost beams have gotten. (numbers cited above) pre F2P, healing and damage numbers worked out much better than they do now.
The following: 1 ES needed that rework, it was only viable as a Premade skill before. It's resistance was also 12 percent higher in its best Mark. 8 percent in the lowest.
2: I already mentioned BFI and I agree it's Stupid. Imo that doff should be removed from the game.
3: TT Distribute had to happen and you know it. Ever try just Distributing shields in modern pvp? If you're -really- being focused it's a Death Sentence to go without TT unless you are literally at Full SDR, and even then you'll still lose huge chunks of your hull. I'll go log in, and we can try it if you don't believe me. the only problem with TT is it clears tac debuffs for it's full duration. Burn Builds, and general bleed through would be much stronger in STO if TT only cleared for 4 seconds. Which means there would be much higher need and demand for hull healing. You'd see ships actually having to quit carrying 2 copies of extend shields. (and it would be relegated back to being a Specialty healer like it was pre season 3)
4: Shield powers resist was quite literally almost non functional before. It literally added only 60 percent as much as it was supposed to add. (not only that but the value it was Supposed to add was actually too small. That's why EPTS, TSS, and ES got a nerf remember? The Hilarity of course is ES and TSS's nerf together is actually Beyond the bonus we gained from Shield Power being Fixed, and even boosted)
5: Escort Defense has only been upped Slightly. And since F2P it actually took a hit. Escort D is now 80 percent (at tops), vs the 90 Percent during Season 4. So don't give me that. You're arguing with a Number Cruncher that has a better memory apparently than you do.
6: Which is easily countered by the massive Passive damage boosts everyone has received.
7: A shield cap console that now has diminished returns, and is weaker than when it was originally introduced. Oh and fielding multiples of means you are either sacrificing healing power, OR durability on every non sci ship. (and on Sci ships you're saccing your CC potential)
8: oh, also ASIF got a Stealth Nerf post f2p as it's heal is much more aux dependent now. meaning during Damage Dealing cycles the heal and resist are actually weaker than they were during season 3. (the stealth nerf happened in S4)
9: Yeah and how much do Shield and hull points actually matter? Tell me how fast can you throw down 100k damage? Because I don't know about you, but I can throw it down pretty hard core, until resists are applied.
Also your numbers are WRONG. 1050 to 1270. That's quite abit north of "10 percent".
That percentage holds across pretty much All weapons, which means all ships are doing ALOT more damage across the board. The thing about DPS vs healing it hits a Tipping point. Without TT in play, and the Pre Stupid Patch Extend shields, we'd have long since gone way over towards One Passing enemy ships in sto and everyone would be fielding 5 man Escort teams. Again if you don't believe me, go take a team that has no TTs, into pvp against Skilled 5 man Escort teams and see what happens. You'll be roasted before you can say "I need heals!"
You're advocating for Massive Change, when the values for things are only slightly off camber and you don't even realize it yet. Also you're ignoring the Golden Rule for game balancing. You do Small Tweaks at a time, over a period of time so you can refine things. You don't take massive swings, or else you end up with well what we had pre F2P of a skill either sucking Terrible Balls (VM) or being God (CPB and Tachyon Beam). And here you are, wanting to reignite and perpetuate that broken cycle.
In all honestly they need to remove PvP from this game because right now, no one plays it, bad mechanics and design and it just plain sucks. Most players are in denial about the Cruiser because they want it to be only a heal boat which no one really cares to do.
If you guys can't admit to problems in the game then nothing will get fixed. Makes me wonder how many people that play this game to pvp are in denial about their own real life issues if they cannot admit to the issues to this game eh?
Anyways, get rid of PvP because the 50 some players only make about 0.00015% of the game so who cares about them since they don't make Cryptic money. Focus on PvE for story missions, balance changes to balance out the ship, weapons, etc.
DPS got a buff but its not near what some have claimed it is... it is on the order of 8-15% at the top end.
Ships have progressed just as quickly... I'm sorry but are you saying it doesn't take 20% more fire power to break an Oddy over a Star Cruiser ?
Or that a Lockbox ship isn't 20% tuffer then a non lock box... ya I know that sounds crazy... I mean those bugs pop just as easy as the vanilla fleet escort right ? lmao
Gear has all washed out frankly... every improved piece of DPS gear has been match or over matched by equaly buffed defensive gear... cause I am sure no one would be using MK XII maco or KHG shields.
Gear is a wash...
So look at skills... yes Cannon Rapid fire got reduced to 10 secoonds... great buff there.
FAW is still broken but no in the oh my it burns way.
Beam Overload... good luck hitting the side of a barn with that one....
Torpedos... ya ok I like a lot of the changes to torps I have said as much... still frankly they are mostly useless in PvP as a true dps weapon arn't they ?
On the other hand ES got a buff to near god like status... 7.5 KM really why even have a limit to its effective range anymore.
Aux to Sif... yay 15 second massive hull resist and heals to... nice
BFI doffs... nuff said
Team doffs... yes my engi healer LOVES having a 13k engi team 3 up every 15 seconds... don't even try to say that isn't uber awsome... thanks maint doffs. Heck my engi will slap a ES 2 on you hit you with the Engi team + SIF hand of god 22k heal + 30% resist, and you will NOT die... cause 15 seconds later if needed I'll do it again.
Frankly anyone that argues DPS is anywhere close to Healing potenital in this game is miss guided.
Healing and DPS have both been buffed... with gear and skills... however frankkly the gear is a wash... and the skills, well they are in the healing corner and then some, and we all know it.
I do. I enjoy flying around battles, shooting at the enemies, but also keeping an eye on my fleetmates and seeing who is in trouble, trying to get to them and throw them some help before they explode. That's why I played an Eng, not a Tac.
I wouldn't have said anything about that, if there where only some Cruisers which where suited for such a job. But to make ALL cruisers (better said in Star Trek terms STARSHIPS) into healboats is just unacceptable.
I never liked that MMO mechanic where everyone has a defined job and isn't very useful at anything else.
Every ship should be able to keep itself alive, to heal other ships in a extreme way as we have it in STO is just unrealistic and a stupid idea.
I like it much better the way it is now, the only thing that needs to be changed is that Cruisers should be able to strike back. As i said both Escorts and Cruisers shouldn't be so extreme in what they can and cannot do.
Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
DPS got a buff but its not near what some have claimed it is... it is on the order of 8-15% at the top end.
Ships have progressed just as quickly... I'm sorry but are you saying it doesn't take 20% more fire power to break an Oddy over a Star Cruiser ?
Or that a Lockbox ship isn't 20% tuffer then a non lock box... ya I know that sounds crazy... I mean those bugs pop just as easy as the vanilla fleet escort right ? lmao
Gear has all washed out frankly... every improved piece of DPS gear has been match or over matched by equaly buffed defensive gear... cause I am sure no one would be using MK XII maco or KHG shields.
Gear is a wash...
So look at skills... yes Cannon Rapid fire got reduced to 10 secoonds... great buff there.
FAW is still broken but no in the oh my it burns way.
Beam Overload... good luck hitting the side of a barn with that one....
Torpedos... ya ok I like a lot of the changes to torps I have said as much... still frankly they are mostly useless in PvP as a true dps weapon arn't they ?
On the other hand ES got a buff to near god like status... 7.5 KM really why even have a limit to its effective range anymore.
Aux to Sif... yay 15 second massive hull resist and heals to... nice
BFI doffs... nuff said
Team doffs... yes my engi healer LOVES having a 13k engi team 3 up every 15 seconds... don't even try to say that isn't uber awsome... thanks maint doffs. Heck my engi will slap a ES 2 on you hit you with the Engi team + SIF hand of god 22k heal + 30% resist, and you will NOT die... cause 15 seconds later if needed I'll do it again.
Frankly anyone that argues DPS is anywhere close to Healing potenital in this game is miss guided.
Healing and DPS have both been buffed... with gear and skills... however frankkly the gear is a wash... and the skills, well they are in the healing corner and then some, and we all know it.
No he isn't. and those numbers I posted for Beams DHCs and Turrets are Real Examples. Copy and pasted from two very distinct word document files. Periodically I save all of my tool tip values, to establish Base Line Numbers in a given season, or post various heavy patches. Those values Exceed the bonuses we gained from Maco, Fleet Shields (KHG is Terrible and everyone should be ditching that for the Fleet Resilients unless they are going 2 KHG which by the way is a Bonus Damage set)
let's also not forget the Massive damage gains Escorts have gotten, the Defiant is Much more agile and has a much stronger pivot point than the Fleet Escort (now Patrol) and AE, the fleet defiant also has +1 tac console. The Bug same deal and has a 5th tac console. The MVAM gave the AE ALOT more speed and agility, and the Fleet MVAE also has a 5th tac console. By the way the numbers I brought up earlier were on a Four tac consoled MVAE. So you can add another 10 percent into the mix once I get a fleet MVAE, and give it a purple XII console.
In the KDF side, we have 2 cruisers there that now have Four tac consoles, one cruiser that gained an LTC tac slot which means the average damage of a klink team is also now Much stronger than it was before.
Oh and lets not forget fedside and klink we have Aux to batt builds, overcapped weapon power again. And Tetryon Gliders.
You aren't debating from an impartial stance. You like playing your damage dealing toons. And that's fine, but you're letting it skew your arguments.
Yeah, and how much good did those doffs really do us? I don't know about you but I am throwing heals ALOT more often even on my Scorts than I was in season 3. The reason is because of said real damage bonuses.
Let's also not forget the following, Polaron actually has a proc now, Phaser procs are still OP, Disruptor procs are now Tac Buffable, and Tetryon procs are better by an order of Magnitude than they used to be. All of which again effectively increase you guessed it DPS.
I Dare you, play a team that has 0 Extends and no TTs. See how long you last. The match will be over in Five Minutes even with perfect synergy on your part if the other team is equally skilled.
Oh, and I have no problems hitting with BO2. and my Torpedoes? have as much kick as ever. You're just out of practice with them. God forbid a high burst weapon requires skill to use.
Also if you want to bring up DOFFs, I can too. We have plenty of CC Boosting Doffs now, and even ones that increase Damage (the Cannon doff for example in DPS booster) TBR drains engine power now, which in addition to doing a decent clip of DPS means target Defense is going to be lower. (up to 40 engine power lowers worth), Warp Plasma has an out right Immobilize chance every time the dot is applied and lasts for 3 seconds at each application, Tykens has the ability to Multi Spawn now (and equal or exceeed the over all drain it had pre f2p), as does GW. Tachyon Beam (lol) has a turn rate debuffer now, even Energy Siphon has a doff now, and let's not forget that E Siphon actually Works now, vs it literally doing 2 drain pre f2p. To say nothing of Systems Engineers and Viral Matrix. So CC has also gotten more bite.
Also let's not forget the Massive overhaul mines just got, especially your beloved plasma mines, and the boost T Torps got (finally). So yes, Damage -has- risen at least as fast, if not faster once you factor in CC than healing has overall especially Season 4 to now.
the problem with both healing and damage is that the difference between buffed and unbuffed is to great. casual, low aux healing and full aux, maint doff, 2xES healing is at least twice as high, even 4 times as high. and damage? fully tac captain buffed your damage per shot is easily doubled. thats all just goofy imo, you cant balance things when theres such a difference between the baseline and the peek.
I Dare you, play a team that has 0 Extends and no TTs. See how long you last. The match will be over in Five Minutes even with perfect synergy on your part if the other team is equally skilled.
Just because everyone is used to playing with a crutch, and fly in and spam damage+healing.
Avoidance and damage negating has left the building long ago, simply because overpowered healing made it obsolete. If the healing got weaker, those good at avoiding incoming damage would win. Skills like target-weapons, acetone, TBR, jam sensors etc. would start matter again. Heck, people might start using the asteroid to hide again!
Anyway, I bet I'd have more fun in that 5 minute match than in a 45 minute circkle-jerk with the current healspam.
(for the record, I support the distribute function of TT. The only thing i'd like to change is that it should remove buffs on activation, not for the duration. EPtoS is actually my biggest complaint, and I think the game would be better off if the resist was reduced to 5 seconds like other EPto buffs)
Just because everyone is used to playing with a crutch, and fly in and spam damage+healing.
Avoidance and damage negating has left the building long ago, simply because overpowered healing made it obsolete. If the healing got weaker, those good at avoiding incoming damage would win. Skills like target-weapons, acetone, TBR, jam sensors etc. would start matter again. Heck, people might start using the asteroid to hide again!
Anyway, I bet I'd have more fun in that 5 minute match than in a 45 minute circkle-jerk with the current healspam.
(for the record, I support the distribute function of TT. The only thing i'd like to change is that it should remove buffs on activation, not for the duration. EPtoS is actually my biggest complaint, and I think the game would be better off if the resist was reduced to 5 seconds like other EPto buffs)
You know I never pegged you as a Moron. So I'm guessing you're playing Stupid on purpose.
You literally can't keep up with incoming DPS without TT and or Extends in a 5v5 environment, or EPTS. Try it some time. I have. I had a single TT on an AE for a while during F2P, due to the mk12 purples etc, and when TT was down, my shields were Done, without the help of Extends -and- EPTS together. And even then a high spike player could vape me easy.
I'm hardly a chump or crutch player. I think the amount of times I've vaped your shuttle and survived yours kind of proves my credentials there.
No matter how many times you try to Deny it, Hard Math says other wise. DPS is simply Too strong now to get by without EPTS and TT working together.
You know I never pegged you as a Moron. So I'm guessing you're playing Stupid on purpose.
You literally can't keep up with incoming DPS without TT and or Extends in a 5v5 environment, or EPTS. Try it some time. I have. I had a single TT on an AE for a while during F2P, due to the mk12 purples etc, and when TT was down, my shields were Done, without the help of Extends -and- EPTS together. And even then a high spike player could vape me easy.
I'm hardly a chump or crutch player. I think the amount of times I've vaped your shuttle and survived yours kind of proves my credentials there.
No matter how many times you try to Deny it, Hard Math says other wise. DPS is simply Too strong now to get by without EPTS and TT working together.
You vaped my shuttle?
/runs to the garage
no, it's still there, cobwebs and dust and all! (I don't remember the last time i pulled out the shuttle
But yeah, I see what you're saying. You need EPtoS and TT to survive. But so does your enemy! Removing EPtoS wouldn't affect balance much, it would just lead to a lot faster battles. And then damage negating would be part of the game again. In a world where people didn't run EPtoS, even the few seconds you get from Jam would give you the upper hand! Acetone field could be the difference between living and dieing! (if it wasn't cleared by half the abilities in game). Actually detecting cloaked vessles becomes a priority!
I know it's a radical change, but because everyone worth anything is spamming the TRIBBLE out of EPtoS, it's pretty much a flat nerf. And if it's too strong a medicine, increase the resistance from shield power a little. If it's one thing we don't need, it's an ability that's up 24/7 on all ships in game
(And again, I fully support TT distibution! Give it debuff-clear on activation only, and we're good!)
Comments
Yes I think adding an ES global with EPTS and RSP was a good move. I don't like that there is Zero room for engi healers anymore... which would be why you havn't seen my healers in action... there useless engies... If I am going to play healer these days I am mostly doing in my sci ship, as secondary healz.
I honestly find it hillarious that people seem to think there is more dps these days then there used to be... honestly what changes where these... was it the Omega nerf ? or tac team neutering beta or the CSV number correction... OR the removal of ACC from faw calculations? Oh right no it wasn't any of those things it was the fact that weapons got bumped to mk xii.... and instead of doing a base 97dmg a turret now does a base 104... yes I see much more incoming fire your right. For the recored I have blue mk xi consoles... so anyone saying mk xii purples ones add much dps should take another look at the score board next time I'm in a match with them.
I will say what has changed is people perceptions of escorts... more people are flying them... and CRUTCH skills like RSP Tac Team... and BFI doffs have allowed Crappy pilots to look good and do 90% of the dps of the big boys... .THAT is what is responsible for the increase in Fire power ... and that alone... remove the crutches and all those crappy pilots will go back to there cruisers.
PS... you will see me in MechW when it launches... right now I believe its in beta is it not.
15 seconds is far too long of a shared CD. It's a Dumb TRIBBLE Move, by devs that follow a Spreadsheet, and not the actual game dynamics.
Infact it goes so far as to kick Engies in the nuts even further than they already were.
There is. Seriously man, just from Rarity alone we got a 15 percent Bonus to DPS across the board. From an upgrade from X, to XII we got another 5 percent increase. Consoles, we went from blue X, to purple XIIs which after 4 consoles adds another 10 percent DPS. That's a 30 percent DPS increase. That all stacks, linearly with almost 0 diminishing returns. Every Single Ship, has these benefits if it's fully kitted out. The only thing healing got? Remember it got a Nerf. 8 to 12 percent on Resist skills for the shield heals across the board.
To further illustrate the point, we went from DHCs that do, 1,050 DPS, to DHCs that do almost 1270 DPS. We lost APO3, and Gained CRF3. (remember it got a boost. It used to only add 30 percent. back int he Mk X days. now it's +50 percent) we went from Turrets that dealt 480, to turrets that now deal 580 DPS. We went from beams that did 720 to almost 900 dps. Now you tell me, damage wasn't Boosted.
And it gained.... TT (which can be Pierced by a high enough spike shot), and shield distribution officers.
Riiight. Since I was such a Terrible pilot that I embarassed your entire guild at one point or another in kerrat, sometimes to at a time before TT came in. If I was Terrible what did that make your boys? Failboats? Go ahead, try to tank without TT and EPTS. See how long it gets you. If you like we can both log in right now and I can Illuminate you, and consequently leave you naught but a trail of space dust and debris that scratches my paint as I fly through what's left of your tankless ship.
Also, Beta is no excuse. If I, who have been wronged by this Dump Pile of a company so often could give Pirhana a shake and Buy a founders pack, so can you.
Yet, as they were working on fixing the old shield glitch they had released the shield distro doffs even post nerf they still repair more than TSS3 and that's just 1 procing. They buffed rsp. They buffed ships console slots (even before fleet ships when c-store ships were all buffed). Many ships had their hulls directly buffed (c-store that is). Then consumable + hulls were add. The 35% console was rebuffed after skill tree change, then changed to stacking 18% hps. STF shields were released. Lotto ships came w/their buffed defenses. More C-Store ships released many w/uni slots. Sorry, I'm not buying damage has been increased more than defense even w/tet gliders. Borg procs were "nerfed" which makes them more likely to trigger when you need them the most. Hazzard Doffs were added. Sci resists added. Broken ~100% hit FaW was fixed.
I remember what it was like to fight w/a B'rel pre F2P and after w/STF gear, Doffs, Sci Debuff resists et al. It makes things night and day, and that's on the most fragile ship in the game. Really it's using Tech Doffs w/Aux2Batt to reduce cooldowns of high alphas that boosts damage potential, but it also reduces repair/resist cooldowns.
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C&H Fed banter
I don't play games in beta anymore... I did a year of tor beta, and it ruined that game for me. I'll see ya launch day. Till then take some xanax or something. lol
Dude it kicks TRIBBLE. Seriously, get it NAO.
If you like scifi pew pew and loved Mechwarrior 2, 3, 4 you have 0 excuse for not playing it already. It's better than most Finished games. Sure as hell beats the pants off of this one.
The problem is it completely hoses any use of ES to save someone if the enemy team does a faked out alpha run. ES, like the flipside, of Damage skills had an advantage of being able to be rippled or cycled in at varying times.
That ability is gone with the current patch. Which is a Huge Problem.
Hopefully ES and RSP are still on shared cd though.
And now we have a crazy situation where cruisers can have all the +shield and +hull abilities (Aux2SIF permanence) and be completely indestructible.
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we know, we are now talking about it hypothetically, if it were still around.
Crazy heals are needed to stop all this crazy damage escorts are dishing out. Look at this from this point: escorts cannot kill cruiser. But what can an cruiser do to escort? Use DEM and make escort die from laughter? Or Aceton the damage from escort sitting on his rear... oh, wait, Aceton is 90 deg. Then perhaps tickle him with beams?
Crazy amount of healing is the only way cruiser can stop escort. From blowing him or his friend. If you wanna nerf healing, nerf the damage output of escorts. Or at least their tanking abilities so that cruiser without heals have a snowball chance to do something about escort shooting him or some of his temamates.
Oh, and I see that players flying primarly Klinks loved this change. After all it made their game a lot easier with Feds having something less to stop their pew pew.
Cryptic seriously needs to align escorts and cruiser instead of making them even more extreme.
I know no one who wants to fly a cruiser just to heal other players, while they do the fun part of a fight.
They do that job to make their team succesful but it's not really fun to start with.
Cryptic really needs to rethink the role of cruiser in their game.
In my opinion they need a huge damage boost in exchange of survivability.
Escorts on the other hand need a bit more survivability in exchange of some firepower. In the end both ship types should be much more alike in damage and survivability. Just their approach on how they generate damage and survivability should be different.
Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
yup. STO PvP needs people to die faster. Faster speed, noone's safe.
I actually think just removing EPtoS resistance alltogether would have been the best move. Would have reduce survivability across the board, and forced people to think about counters and such.
To give an example from PvE: When the revamped ground STFs came out, they had ?ber-one-shotting Elite drones. Regular "run in and shoot-heal-shoot-heal" didn't work anymore. So what happened? Damage negating, that's what! People started using Weapons Malfunction and Supressing Fire. Natural Cover and Cover Shields became part of the game again! We got a challenge, and worked through it!
If ships were weaker, we would have been forced to do the same in space PvP. Incoming escort? Target Weapons! Acetone Field! Hide behind that asteroid! Evasive! Evasive! Subspace jump! Jam Sensors! etc.
Right now, these techniques are rendered obsolete for two reasons: First, you will get more mileage out of heal-spam-tanking. Second: You need all those boff slots to have any chance to break through heal-spam-tanking.
All those percentages are (besides being slightly inflated) ofc based off the base damage of the weapon. Before even captain skill is added. Actual damage output of a fully buffed tac captain is still no more than 10% higher than after the original Cannon-power-nerf (season 1.1 i think? And burst damage is lower than at launch, when it was insane)
Healing got (off the top of my head)
- Reworked long range ES that don't break when leaving range for a second
- BFI
- TT distribute
- TT making APB and FoMM junk
- Resists from shield power
- (depending on how far back we want to go: it got self-TSSing too)
- healing pets
- equipment sets doing healing
- sets giving bonus defence
- Escorts got insane bonus defence values
- Access to more power through consoles and sets, increasing bonus defence and shield resist.
- Shield cap consoles
- Ships with more shields
- Ships with more hull
All increase in damage by better equipment is more than compensated by the increased stats of equipment that make you survive. And on top of that we lost two of the major tac debuffs AND got a ton of new heals, resists and bonus defence.
Seriously, heavy damage dealers got a 10%ish boost, but healing is freaking doubled!
I do. I enjoy flying around battles, shooting at the enemies, but also keeping an eye on my fleetmates and seeing who is in trouble, trying to get to them and throw them some help before they explode. That's why I played an Eng, not a Tac.
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Yup me too
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I'm not counting Pre 1.2 for DPS. Nor am I counting bugged as all hell CSV or DBB FAW.
Also, again since 1.2 DHCs went from 1050 to 1270. That's a 200 DPS Gain Per DHC alone. That also coincidentally affects skills that have damage multipliers. I don't think that's too hard to figure out. To say nothing of the unarguable Boost beams have gotten. (numbers cited above) pre F2P, healing and damage numbers worked out much better than they do now.
The following: 1 ES needed that rework, it was only viable as a Premade skill before. It's resistance was also 12 percent higher in its best Mark. 8 percent in the lowest.
2: I already mentioned BFI and I agree it's Stupid. Imo that doff should be removed from the game.
3: TT Distribute had to happen and you know it. Ever try just Distributing shields in modern pvp? If you're -really- being focused it's a Death Sentence to go without TT unless you are literally at Full SDR, and even then you'll still lose huge chunks of your hull. I'll go log in, and we can try it if you don't believe me. the only problem with TT is it clears tac debuffs for it's full duration. Burn Builds, and general bleed through would be much stronger in STO if TT only cleared for 4 seconds. Which means there would be much higher need and demand for hull healing. You'd see ships actually having to quit carrying 2 copies of extend shields. (and it would be relegated back to being a Specialty healer like it was pre season 3)
4: Shield powers resist was quite literally almost non functional before. It literally added only 60 percent as much as it was supposed to add. (not only that but the value it was Supposed to add was actually too small. That's why EPTS, TSS, and ES got a nerf remember? The Hilarity of course is ES and TSS's nerf together is actually Beyond the bonus we gained from Shield Power being Fixed, and even boosted)
5: Escort Defense has only been upped Slightly. And since F2P it actually took a hit. Escort D is now 80 percent (at tops), vs the 90 Percent during Season 4. So don't give me that. You're arguing with a Number Cruncher that has a better memory apparently than you do.
6: Which is easily countered by the massive Passive damage boosts everyone has received.
7: A shield cap console that now has diminished returns, and is weaker than when it was originally introduced. Oh and fielding multiples of means you are either sacrificing healing power, OR durability on every non sci ship. (and on Sci ships you're saccing your CC potential)
8: oh, also ASIF got a Stealth Nerf post f2p as it's heal is much more aux dependent now. meaning during Damage Dealing cycles the heal and resist are actually weaker than they were during season 3. (the stealth nerf happened in S4)
9: Yeah and how much do Shield and hull points actually matter? Tell me how fast can you throw down 100k damage? Because I don't know about you, but I can throw it down pretty hard core, until resists are applied.
Also your numbers are WRONG. 1050 to 1270. That's quite abit north of "10 percent".
That percentage holds across pretty much All weapons, which means all ships are doing ALOT more damage across the board. The thing about DPS vs healing it hits a Tipping point. Without TT in play, and the Pre Stupid Patch Extend shields, we'd have long since gone way over towards One Passing enemy ships in sto and everyone would be fielding 5 man Escort teams. Again if you don't believe me, go take a team that has no TTs, into pvp against Skilled 5 man Escort teams and see what happens. You'll be roasted before you can say "I need heals!"
You're advocating for Massive Change, when the values for things are only slightly off camber and you don't even realize it yet. Also you're ignoring the Golden Rule for game balancing. You do Small Tweaks at a time, over a period of time so you can refine things. You don't take massive swings, or else you end up with well what we had pre F2P of a skill either sucking Terrible Balls (VM) or being God (CPB and Tachyon Beam). And here you are, wanting to reignite and perpetuate that broken cycle.
If you guys can't admit to problems in the game then nothing will get fixed. Makes me wonder how many people that play this game to pvp are in denial about their own real life issues if they cannot admit to the issues to this game eh?
Anyways, get rid of PvP because the 50 some players only make about 0.00015% of the game so who cares about them since they don't make Cryptic money. Focus on PvE for story missions, balance changes to balance out the ship, weapons, etc.
DPS got a buff but its not near what some have claimed it is... it is on the order of 8-15% at the top end.
Ships have progressed just as quickly... I'm sorry but are you saying it doesn't take 20% more fire power to break an Oddy over a Star Cruiser ?
Or that a Lockbox ship isn't 20% tuffer then a non lock box... ya I know that sounds crazy... I mean those bugs pop just as easy as the vanilla fleet escort right ? lmao
Gear has all washed out frankly... every improved piece of DPS gear has been match or over matched by equaly buffed defensive gear... cause I am sure no one would be using MK XII maco or KHG shields.
Gear is a wash...
So look at skills... yes Cannon Rapid fire got reduced to 10 secoonds... great buff there.
FAW is still broken but no in the oh my it burns way.
Beam Overload... good luck hitting the side of a barn with that one....
Torpedos... ya ok I like a lot of the changes to torps I have said as much... still frankly they are mostly useless in PvP as a true dps weapon arn't they ?
On the other hand ES got a buff to near god like status... 7.5 KM really why even have a limit to its effective range anymore.
Aux to Sif... yay 15 second massive hull resist and heals to... nice
BFI doffs... nuff said
Team doffs... yes my engi healer LOVES having a 13k engi team 3 up every 15 seconds... don't even try to say that isn't uber awsome... thanks maint doffs. Heck my engi will slap a ES 2 on you hit you with the Engi team + SIF hand of god 22k heal + 30% resist, and you will NOT die... cause 15 seconds later if needed I'll do it again.
Frankly anyone that argues DPS is anywhere close to Healing potenital in this game is miss guided.
Healing and DPS have both been buffed... with gear and skills... however frankkly the gear is a wash... and the skills, well they are in the healing corner and then some, and we all know it.
I never liked that MMO mechanic where everyone has a defined job and isn't very useful at anything else.
Every ship should be able to keep itself alive, to heal other ships in a extreme way as we have it in STO is just unrealistic and a stupid idea.
I like it much better the way it is now, the only thing that needs to be changed is that Cruisers should be able to strike back. As i said both Escorts and Cruisers shouldn't be so extreme in what they can and cannot do.
Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
No he isn't. and those numbers I posted for Beams DHCs and Turrets are Real Examples. Copy and pasted from two very distinct word document files. Periodically I save all of my tool tip values, to establish Base Line Numbers in a given season, or post various heavy patches. Those values Exceed the bonuses we gained from Maco, Fleet Shields (KHG is Terrible and everyone should be ditching that for the Fleet Resilients unless they are going 2 KHG which by the way is a Bonus Damage set)
let's also not forget the Massive damage gains Escorts have gotten, the Defiant is Much more agile and has a much stronger pivot point than the Fleet Escort (now Patrol) and AE, the fleet defiant also has +1 tac console. The Bug same deal and has a 5th tac console. The MVAM gave the AE ALOT more speed and agility, and the Fleet MVAE also has a 5th tac console. By the way the numbers I brought up earlier were on a Four tac consoled MVAE. So you can add another 10 percent into the mix once I get a fleet MVAE, and give it a purple XII console.
In the KDF side, we have 2 cruisers there that now have Four tac consoles, one cruiser that gained an LTC tac slot which means the average damage of a klink team is also now Much stronger than it was before.
Oh and lets not forget fedside and klink we have Aux to batt builds, overcapped weapon power again. And Tetryon Gliders.
You aren't debating from an impartial stance. You like playing your damage dealing toons. And that's fine, but you're letting it skew your arguments.
Yeah, and how much good did those doffs really do us? I don't know about you but I am throwing heals ALOT more often even on my Scorts than I was in season 3. The reason is because of said real damage bonuses.
Let's also not forget the following, Polaron actually has a proc now, Phaser procs are still OP, Disruptor procs are now Tac Buffable, and Tetryon procs are better by an order of Magnitude than they used to be. All of which again effectively increase you guessed it DPS.
I Dare you, play a team that has 0 Extends and no TTs. See how long you last. The match will be over in Five Minutes even with perfect synergy on your part if the other team is equally skilled.
Oh, and I have no problems hitting with BO2. and my Torpedoes? have as much kick as ever. You're just out of practice with them. God forbid a high burst weapon requires skill to use.
Also if you want to bring up DOFFs, I can too. We have plenty of CC Boosting Doffs now, and even ones that increase Damage (the Cannon doff for example in DPS booster) TBR drains engine power now, which in addition to doing a decent clip of DPS means target Defense is going to be lower. (up to 40 engine power lowers worth), Warp Plasma has an out right Immobilize chance every time the dot is applied and lasts for 3 seconds at each application, Tykens has the ability to Multi Spawn now (and equal or exceeed the over all drain it had pre f2p), as does GW. Tachyon Beam (lol) has a turn rate debuffer now, even Energy Siphon has a doff now, and let's not forget that E Siphon actually Works now, vs it literally doing 2 drain pre f2p. To say nothing of Systems Engineers and Viral Matrix. So CC has also gotten more bite.
Also let's not forget the Massive overhaul mines just got, especially your beloved plasma mines, and the boost T Torps got (finally). So yes, Damage -has- risen at least as fast, if not faster once you factor in CC than healing has overall especially Season 4 to now.
Just because everyone is used to playing with a crutch, and fly in and spam damage+healing.
Avoidance and damage negating has left the building long ago, simply because overpowered healing made it obsolete. If the healing got weaker, those good at avoiding incoming damage would win. Skills like target-weapons, acetone, TBR, jam sensors etc. would start matter again. Heck, people might start using the asteroid to hide again!
Anyway, I bet I'd have more fun in that 5 minute match than in a 45 minute circkle-jerk with the current healspam.
(for the record, I support the distribute function of TT. The only thing i'd like to change is that it should remove buffs on activation, not for the duration. EPtoS is actually my biggest complaint, and I think the game would be better off if the resist was reduced to 5 seconds like other EPto buffs)
You know I never pegged you as a Moron. So I'm guessing you're playing Stupid on purpose.
You literally can't keep up with incoming DPS without TT and or Extends in a 5v5 environment, or EPTS. Try it some time. I have. I had a single TT on an AE for a while during F2P, due to the mk12 purples etc, and when TT was down, my shields were Done, without the help of Extends -and- EPTS together. And even then a high spike player could vape me easy.
I'm hardly a chump or crutch player. I think the amount of times I've vaped your shuttle and survived yours kind of proves my credentials there.
No matter how many times you try to Deny it, Hard Math says other wise. DPS is simply Too strong now to get by without EPTS and TT working together.
Like you would know anything, You play an Eng Scort with a straight face.
And style. I play it with a straight face and style. :cool:
/runs to the garage
no, it's still there, cobwebs and dust and all! (I don't remember the last time i pulled out the shuttle
But yeah, I see what you're saying. You need EPtoS and TT to survive. But so does your enemy! Removing EPtoS wouldn't affect balance much, it would just lead to a lot faster battles. And then damage negating would be part of the game again. In a world where people didn't run EPtoS, even the few seconds you get from Jam would give you the upper hand! Acetone field could be the difference between living and dieing! (if it wasn't cleared by half the abilities in game). Actually detecting cloaked vessles becomes a priority!
I know it's a radical change, but because everyone worth anything is spamming the TRIBBLE out of EPtoS, it's pretty much a flat nerf. And if it's too strong a medicine, increase the resistance from shield power a little. If it's one thing we don't need, it's an ability that's up 24/7 on all ships in game
(And again, I fully support TT distibution! Give it debuff-clear on activation only, and we're good!)
The first time i put an engi in an escort, I said...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
^This made me laugh
Why? This is not fed versus KDF issue.
R.I.P