If a whole build hinges on one skill, something is already horribly wrong!
Glad you agree. At the end of the day RSP was supposed to be an "oh ****!" button to get out of a sticky situation, not to combine with EPTS and other heals to turn people into a god boat. If you're coming under fire and you can't withstand it, hit evasive manuvers, transfer your energy to your engines and boogie on out of there. Its almost as if evasive manuvers was designed to help evade damage.
The way I see it is this, escorts are squishier, cruisers have to be smarter, and science probably wont even notice the difference. I fail to see how any of these things are bad.
Going to agree too - RSP was used as nothing more than a crutch in many cases and having it share cooldowns with EPTS won't hurt any player who is actually watching their cooldowns.
As others have already said, there are lots of ways to deal with incoming damage and RSP was only one of them, an unnecessary one at that. Think team work and tactics people!
And what alternatives are there to mitigate the damage comming out of escorts outside of cycling EPtS? On Eng/cruisers of course. Aceton could work if this was AOE or at least 360 deg ability. DEM could work (scare away escort) if it works for eng. TSS can work as replacement for EPtS but it also takes away one heal and it's not so as if cruisers have too much of them.
With HE and PH you can try hull tanking. But with TT and ET having shared CD it's not that nice. AuxTSIF means there is one less heal for the team. So either you run "extend only" healbot (great healbot) and use rest of skill to keep yourself alive, or you run tank and are useless becasue who will attack a tank? And cruisers don't have enough sci BOFFs to make sci-shield heals viable for them.
Cruisers as ships are not dead. There can always be a tac/cruiser. But eng/cruisers are unless they do something about Acetons and make DEM work. Cruiser only heavy beams for broadsiding wont be a bad thing too.
Seriously how about you just delete eng toons from game. WTF???Thanks for the testing period and feedback, we feel really appreciated here.
Will Dmg *something* doffs, get a proc roll when activating RSP now to, or is EptS now no longer effected by it?
Also since everybody has now access to poor mans RSP aka Tac Team, Miracle Worker via temp set, nadeon and SNB via doffs,
how about giving aceton a poor mans APA?
If you want to reduce healing TacTeam, Assim Set, BFI doffs are the culprits, Eng/cruisers are laughable as they are.
A quick 'n' dirty fix for this would be to reduce cool down to rsf. Not to the point you can chain it, but it would allow a better resistance when using extends, if extends cant be timed perfectly, such as in a pug.
As a side note, I do think those changes don't sound as bad as many of us think. But I haven't tested the changes either, just reading the forum and tribble notes.
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Nonono... This simply means the tanks stop healing themselves. The tank engcruisers stay tank, but need another person to come heal them, who become squishier themselves.
So this is a PVP nerf and a PVE revamp, as we now need to bring a dedicated healer. This is a good thing.
But the pve queues don't support tank, heal, dps slots like another game does. THIS is bad, and must be fixed along with the above nerfs, or no one will be able to finish eSTFs now.
i agree, you now can be a healer or a tank...not both. But the current endgame content does not support any of this as much as it should.
Maybe the intended role of the engineer cruiser is not being a "healboat"?
What do you think they intend that role to be?
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As STO is DPS oriented game I would say that indendet role is "long range" fire support for escorts. With beams cruiser could weaken the target before escorts close in and kills it. The problem is there is no "fire" in eng/cruisers to support tac/escorts.
I may try doing just that, actually... a EWP-plasmaturret-plamatorp&mine-Acetone-DEM-boat! But I'll do it on a tac captain, ofc, so I can tac buff my burn! And I may use a BOP...
Thats the future for engineers! Being tac captains in BoPs!
If Cryptic wanted to restore cruisers' damage dealing ability, all they would have to do is fix the FAW [acc] bug. But that's apparently not even on their to-do list.
Maybe they are worried of returning to the days of the Zombie Cruisers and the never miss BFAW?
(Disclaimer: By "real Trek", i look at it in the context of progressing time. Sure, Archer or Kirks Enterprise were not tanks, but as the years went on, the Cruisers kept getting bigger, heavier and tankier.)
Archers may not have been but Kirks connie-E was all tank.
Look at the beating it took from Khan and yet continued to function for example.
I think being able to take a pounding was a important part of teh design for an extended exploration Cruiser on a long term mission.
Hmm... a reduction to healing and emergency power BOFF abilities should make the engineer better, not worse, as he is the one that can do just this on his own. It's the sci's and tacs that will suffer most, having the boff skills they're dependant on pulled from under their feet.
You're thinking like a scrub, not somebody who plays in organized matches.
The reason people used to roll eng/cruisers as main healers isn't just about survivability, but because cruisers benefit more than any other ship class from high power levels making the engineer a natural fit. But now there is no reason to take a cruiser over a science ship (or carrier) heal-boat.
If you're still taking an engineer after today, you're playing to lose. Both offensively and defensively you're better off with another science captain. These changes made SNB quite a bit more powerful (as if that was needed), but also increased the usefulness of scattering field and science fleet. Better self-tanking at the expense of everything else simply isn't a good trade-off.
No, cruisers never where pure "tanks" not in "real" star Trek.
Cryptic made them the classic MMO tank, which was completely wrong in the first place. Big Starships (even the klingon ones, to a certain extend) in Star Trek are Multi Role ships. What Cryptic missed is to give cruisers more Firepower or other utility.
Your CAREER choice determines (to a certain extend) if you prefer to do damage, Tank or Wizard stuff.
The combination with your ship can enhance your career choice or give you another combination.
But most of all, your PLAYSTYLE determines what role you want to fill.
Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
I was referring to a purely game viewpoint with cruisers being tanks. And yes, the career dictates what role you play. As you (and I) said, cruisers were intended for engineers, to aid in their role, just like secorts are intended for tacs. But you do not have to choose that ship.
As for the whole one skill changes cripples your build = bad build to begin with, well, now we Engineers have a choice. Try to help our teamates, or try to help ourselves. Ok, might be a bad build. But not everyone knows how to make a perfect build. By saying Engs should be using aceton and whatever else they should be using, that's kinda taking away the freedom to build our own style, which I thought MMO's were meant to encourage, instead leaving us with "You must play this way to be any good."
*******************************************
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As i've said elsewhere the issue with "tank for yourself or heal somone else" is:
PVE content dosen't normally allow this and several "fleet" mission ask you to heal; a squishy and take dmage yourself.
The loss of sheild power boost from EPTS for when you hit ES is also going to nerf the effectivness of ES unless you run a higher sheild power setting which nerfs you in other area's. Quite aside from the resistance boost.
"Waaaahhhhhh, I don't get to fly an un-killable cruiser anymore!!!"
:rolleyes:
We'll see how long you're going to be saying that after you realize you are Never going to get heals, against enemy escort fire now and are dying in seconds flat to a full team of DHCs salvoing your ship into nothing.
Well there goes my last line of defence I can now finally lose my ship to anyone with a half decent alpha-strike, I mean hey, if you can't get through EPtS you're doing it worng.
As it was I only really used RSP when an escort did come round with an alpha-strike aimed at my shields but as that stops my EPtS cycle so that goes out the window as an escort just needs to hit evasives, come back around, dish out pass 2 and I'm practically dead if I'm not already dead, thanks guys!
We'll see how long you're going to be saying that after you realize you are Never going to get heals, against enemy escort fire now and are dying in seconds flat to a full team of DHCs salvoing your ship into nothing.
My Engscorts don't rely on heals from other ships, and my build will not be affected by the new shared cooldowns and whatnot.
Imo, I'm not sure it'll be as bad as it feels. The more a think about it, the more I think there are ways for a zombie cruiser roll various resists/repairs to repair moderate damage to itself while still support another ship.
The main issue is it comes at a cost of less CC and damage AoE damage potential (not that this was anything to write home about for Eng Repair Cruisers).
It may reduce the Sci ship encroachment as a CC/Repair ship and force it to be a CC/self repair ship. I have to think various layouts through tbo.
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could be used effectively as a repair ship by an Eng Capt even w/the new changes?
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Without an Extends people will just burn through your heals too quickly. The other problem of course is one can simply wait for your green diaper to fade and then just blammo, you're toast.
APD also only adds to Hull damage resistance *I know it says All Damage Resistance, but that's how it works. All apparently means just hull in cryptic's mind)
Comments
Glad you agree. At the end of the day RSP was supposed to be an "oh ****!" button to get out of a sticky situation, not to combine with EPTS and other heals to turn people into a god boat. If you're coming under fire and you can't withstand it, hit evasive manuvers, transfer your energy to your engines and boogie on out of there. Its almost as if evasive manuvers was designed to help evade damage.
The way I see it is this, escorts are squishier, cruisers have to be smarter, and science probably wont even notice the difference. I fail to see how any of these things are bad.
As others have already said, there are lots of ways to deal with incoming damage and RSP was only one of them, an unnecessary one at that. Think team work and tactics people!
With HE and PH you can try hull tanking. But with TT and ET having shared CD it's not that nice. AuxTSIF means there is one less heal for the team. So either you run "extend only" healbot (great healbot) and use rest of skill to keep yourself alive, or you run tank and are useless becasue who will attack a tank? And cruisers don't have enough sci BOFFs to make sci-shield heals viable for them.
Cruisers as ships are not dead. There can always be a tac/cruiser. But eng/cruisers are unless they do something about Acetons and make DEM work. Cruiser only heavy beams for broadsiding wont be a bad thing too.
A quick 'n' dirty fix for this would be to reduce cool down to rsf. Not to the point you can chain it, but it would allow a better resistance when using extends, if extends cant be timed perfectly, such as in a pug.
As a side note, I do think those changes don't sound as bad as many of us think. But I haven't tested the changes either, just reading the forum and tribble notes.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
i agree, you now can be a healer or a tank...not both. But the current endgame content does not support any of this as much as it should.
What do you think they intend that role to be?
A ultra-badass DEM-Aceton Beam beamboat naturally.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6019861&postcount=48
I may try doing just that, actually... a EWP-plasmaturret-plamatorp&mine-Acetone-DEM-boat! But I'll do it on a tac captain, ofc, so I can tac buff my burn! And I may use a BOP...
Thats the future for engineers! Being tac captains in BoPs!
Maybe they are worried of returning to the days of the Zombie Cruisers and the never miss BFAW?
R.I.P
Archers may not have been but Kirks connie-E was all tank.
Look at the beating it took from Khan and yet continued to function for example.
I think being able to take a pounding was a important part of teh design for an extended exploration Cruiser on a long term mission.
R.I.P
You're thinking like a scrub, not somebody who plays in organized matches.
The reason people used to roll eng/cruisers as main healers isn't just about survivability, but because cruisers benefit more than any other ship class from high power levels making the engineer a natural fit. But now there is no reason to take a cruiser over a science ship (or carrier) heal-boat.
If you're still taking an engineer after today, you're playing to lose. Both offensively and defensively you're better off with another science captain. These changes made SNB quite a bit more powerful (as if that was needed), but also increased the usefulness of scattering field and science fleet. Better self-tanking at the expense of everything else simply isn't a good trade-off.
I was referring to a purely game viewpoint with cruisers being tanks. And yes, the career dictates what role you play. As you (and I) said, cruisers were intended for engineers, to aid in their role, just like secorts are intended for tacs. But you do not have to choose that ship.
As for the whole one skill changes cripples your build = bad build to begin with, well, now we Engineers have a choice. Try to help our teamates, or try to help ourselves. Ok, might be a bad build. But not everyone knows how to make a perfect build. By saying Engs should be using aceton and whatever else they should be using, that's kinda taking away the freedom to build our own style, which I thought MMO's were meant to encourage, instead leaving us with "You must play this way to be any good."
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Changing "one skill" affects ALOT more than just one skill. Especially on non faceroller levels of play.
Welcome everyone to STO: Top Gun Edition.
PVE content dosen't normally allow this and several "fleet" mission ask you to heal; a squishy and take dmage yourself.
The loss of sheild power boost from EPTS for when you hit ES is also going to nerf the effectivness of ES unless you run a higher sheild power setting which nerfs you in other area's. Quite aside from the resistance boost.
:rolleyes:
We'll see how long you're going to be saying that after you realize you are Never going to get heals, against enemy escort fire now and are dying in seconds flat to a full team of DHCs salvoing your ship into nothing.
As it was I only really used RSP when an escort did come round with an alpha-strike aimed at my shields but as that stops my EPtS cycle so that goes out the window as an escort just needs to hit evasives, come back around, dish out pass 2 and I'm practically dead if I'm not already dead, thanks guys!
My Engscorts don't rely on heals from other ships, and my build will not be affected by the new shared cooldowns and whatnot.
:P
You rely on Externals far more than you think you do, if you play against people with Skill. Even Eng Cruisers rely on externals prior to this change.
You'll get to see just how Bad Eng Scort is, compared to Tac and Sci Scort now because that's all anyone with Skill is going to be flying.
*facepalm* Engs more cannon fodder for sci/scorts and tac/scorts
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
The main issue is it comes at a cost of less CC and damage AoE damage potential (not that this was anything to write home about for Eng Repair Cruisers).
It may reduce the Sci ship encroachment as a CC/Repair ship and force it to be a CC/self repair ship. I have to think various layouts through tbo.
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Yep. Since the borg procs shield heal doesn't apply a damage resist, it's very easily chewed through.
Do you think something along the lines of what I described here:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=6028721&postcount=16
could be used effectively as a repair ship by an Eng Capt even w/the new changes?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
APD also only adds to Hull damage resistance *I know it says All Damage Resistance, but that's how it works. All apparently means just hull in cryptic's mind)