Option one sounds like the best bet, but that's more because option two is flawed.
Flaws in option two:
If you limit the proc via an immunity on the affected target, people will just switch targets. Or, if they have a regular SNB lined up will just use that once the target buffs up again. Not very many targets can survive having their buffs stripped twice. The ability is still nearly as powerful.
If it's implemented as a global limit, then you've introduced a convoluted and difficult to grasp rule to the game where you didn't need to. Convoluted rules are more likely to break somewhere down the line, and more likely to be miscategorized (for example, as a math bug;)) by future devs after you leave in disgust as all competent developers at cryptic eventually do.
Ok guys, I figured it out. Cryptic just applied the wrong portion of the SNB power to the doff proc.
Get rid of the buff striping effect entirely, and replace it with the less powerful increase cooldown effect. Maybe up the proc rate a tad.
The doff would still have a place in PvP, mainly to eat up the enemy team's ST pool and make them more vulnerable to real SNBs and debuffs.
It would still be pretty worhtless in PvE, but at least you would be able to see the debuff on the enemy which could make it feel more useful. As it stands, the current iteration is probably going to go entirely unnoticed vs. NPCs.
In fact that's a GREAT idea, I really like it. Even few sec more to cool down or global cooldown for a tac team or eps would be important. And also the doffs would actually still mean something.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
pretty much, trashing them and giving everyone that has one an icon that looks like a middle finger would be a perfectly acceptable solution to this. this doff ONLY effects pvp, there is 0 use for this in pve, so go ahead and flush them, our combined 'rage' would be a whisper compared to doing the same thing to something that would effects pve.
overall we would thank you for doing it. those that have them would just have to use more 'legitimate' tactics to win, like siphon spam, tractor spam, chrono spam, tric mine spam, and ams spam
Lol, we got to the point to think that all this junk (tractor spam, ams, siphons ...) are actually not that bad compared to those doffs... Kind of funny. But I like the icon w middle finger up idea, lol, Borticus, please implement it.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I thought this doff only removed one buff, not all of them. Having a doff that removes all buffs seems rather overboard in terms of effect, when even losing one key buff can be the difference between survival and destruction.
It seems to me that changing the proc rate doesn't help to balance this, because no matter often or rarely it procs, its effect is overly strong. Making the proc happen less often only makes it more of a lottery. I'm sure at some point it could be made unreliable enough to be considered useless, but I doubt it could be made just unreliable enough to be considered fair. On the other hand, it would be nice if it procced often enough that it could be seen doing something.
Therefore, instead of changing the chance of a proc, I think the scope of the proc should be reduced, preferably to removing just one buff -- see how that feels, compared to the current effect.
The other change I would advocate is having the proc grant a immunity to further procs from the doff from all sources for perhaps 20 to 30 seconds. This means that 5 ships on the same team all equipped with these doffs shooting at the same target are less likely to scale overly well.
Ok guys, I figured it out. Cryptic just applied the wrong portion of the SNB power to the doff proc.
Get rid of the buff striping effect entirely, and replace it with the less powerful increase cooldown effect. Maybe up the proc rate a tad.
The doff would still have a place in PvP, mainly to eat up the enemy team's ST pool and make them more vulnerable to real SNBs and debuffs.
It would still be pretty worhtless in PvE, but at least you would be able to see the debuff on the enemy which could make it feel more useful. As it stands, the current iteration is probably going to go entirely unnoticed vs. NPCs.
I'm sick of reading people crying for nerfs as soon as something new is working except their old build they're too lazy to change.
PvP isn't "dead". The way you played it might be but it's not dead, you just need to adapt. I don't even see why it's an issue, removing my buffs had never been an issue for me. There's no CD increase. It's just about BUFFS. Most of you get confused by the wrong "SNB doff" name, but it has nothing to do with an SNB. SNB is a debuff, this doff isn't.
No buff is mandatory to play pvp. Get your heads out of the clouds, pvp is still working well and this doff won't kill it.
+1 to this. Alot of the nerfing in this game is because now someone isn't "All powerful" like they should be and now someone can beat them or their pre-made... Thats a whole another story there that I even don't care to get in on at this time. It would probably cause me to get permbanned...
Me and one other guy were using these all day today in the public queues and we didn't notice A SINGLE game changing effect that those who posted before me are claiming. I think it boils down to it now gives a chance to some of the less experienced PvP'ers out there and actually makes it fun for them now where as it wasn't before...
Leave the doffs as is. THEY ARE FINE. Stop whining and go upstairs once in a while and see the light...
What SHOULD be looked at is the way Tetryon Glide (being fully spec'd in it) does when 2+ ships are running it or Anti-Matter spread spam and lastly Hold Spam... Those are WAY more out of whack than these doffs are and should get top priority...
+1 to this. Alot of the nerfing in this game is because now someone isn't "All powerful" like they should be and now someone can beat them or their pre-made... Thats a whole another story there that I even don't care to get in on at this time. It would probably cause me to get permbanned...
Me and one other guy were using these all day today in the public queues and we didn't notice A SINGLE game changing effect that those who posted before me are claiming. I think it boils down to it now gives a chance to some of the less experienced PvP'ers out there and actually makes it fun for them now where as it wasn't before...
Leave the doffs as is. THEY ARE FINE. Stop whining and go upstairs once in a while and see the light...
What SHOULD be looked at is the way Tetryon Glide (being fully spec'd in it) does when 2+ ships are running it or Anti-Matter spread spam and lastly Hold Spam... Those are WAY more out of whack than these doffs are and should get top priority...
this game is not fine. maybe you should actually read all the concerns before you say all we want to do is nerf things.
there are obviously overpowered powers in this game, if you can't see that then I feel sorry that you cant.
this game is not fine. maybe you should actually read all the concerns before you say all we want to do is nerf things.
there are obviously overpowered powers in this game, if you can't see that then I feel sorry that you cant.
Its you I feel sorry for... I SEE the what's overpowered every time I enter a public queue. SNB Doffs are one that aren't... But to be spammed with holds, lock downs, placates and such 1 second after you free yourself IS overpowered where no such immunity is present such as running two APO doesn't even help is just ridiculous. The same goes for Tetryon Glider, Shield drains etc as well...
Like you said to me, if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I agree things need to be looked at, but the SNB Doffs are not one of them..
+1 to this. Alot of the nerfing in this game is because now someone isn't "All powerful" like they should be and now someone can beat them or their pre-made... Thats a whole another story there that I even don't care to get in on at this time. It would probably cause me to get permbanned...
Me and one other guy were using these all day today in the public queues and we didn't notice A SINGLE game changing effect that those who posted before me are claiming. I think it boils down to it now gives a chance to some of the less experienced PvP'ers out there and actually makes it fun for them now where as it wasn't before...
Leave the doffs as is. THEY ARE FINE. Stop whining and go upstairs once in a while and see the light...
What SHOULD be looked at is the way Tetryon Glide (being fully spec'd in it) does when 2+ ships are running it or Anti-Matter spread spam and lastly Hold Spam... Those are WAY more out of whack than these doffs are and should get top priority...
It sounds like you should be on the receiving end more often . When youre in a match with multiple sci/eng healers on your team, and still cant keep up with heals on a team mate because they're being stripped so often, ONLY then, you'll see how effective they actually are.
Most of the heals in this game give some kind of resist. aux to sif, epts, haz, tss, you name it. When all if these can be stripped multiple times within a few seconds, even when resists are reapplied, the healers eventually run out of heals trying to save the person.
-- When you're on a team and being focused by 2 escorts and a team running these, you use rotate shields, tac team, aux to sif then get stripped. then you take heavy damage. receive a tac team and heals from team mates if needed, then stripped again, clutch rsp to stay alive, then instantly stripped again and finally die. All of this happening within 10-20 seconds.
Some of the best cross healing coordinated teams can be ripped apart by less coordinated/skilled/experienced teams. And the wealthier pvp fleets who run them crush anyone without even giving them a chance. either way, its unfair.
So i would have to say i support the decision of 1-3 random abilities stripped, the less, the better. Even stripping 1-2 of these still makes them very effective without toning down the proc chance. but still gives the team a chance to keep a team mate alive in a match.
Its you I feel sorry for... I SEE the what's overpowered every time I enter a public queue. SNB Doffs are one that aren't... But to be spammed with holds, lock downs, placates and such 1 second after you free yourself IS overpowered where no such immunity is present such as running two APO doesn't even help is just ridiculous. The same goes for Tetryon Glider, Shield drains etc as well...
Like you said to me, if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I agree things need to be looked at, but the SNB Doffs are not one of them..
You definitely don't pvp enough. Go fight against a team that has 3x5 of those and get focused. After you die 10 times, come back and post your experience. Then have same team remove those subnuc doffs. Try again and see the difference. In 1-1, it's not so bad, even though to ballance the fight, both players should have them. Their problem is that it adds a lotto effect that's also exaggerated and should only be available to a sci Cpt. It's similar to fighting a carrier with siphons. Click and tank. No skills at all.
We're not talking about other doffs here, per Borticus' request. Other doffs also need adjustments, we all agree with this, but their trial is not today or on this thread.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
So i would have to say i support the decision of 1-3 random abilities stripped, the less, the better. Even stripping 1-2 of these still makes them very effective without toning down the proc chance. but still gives the team a chance to keep a team mate alive in a match.
Well I think hard core PvP'ers need to stop controlling the fate of this game and learn to adapt. Isn't that what PvP is about? Every time someone figures out how to build something that is effective (I don't mean exploiting), its gets nerfed. This needs to stop. There is a difference between exploiting a power and being effective. Some will argue its semantics but really, its not..
The hard core PvP Community needs to stop controlling the game...
And your concerns are still over-exaggerated, I think.
Why not change up what it does all together. Here are a few ideas....
1)
1.0% chance (throw everyone a small bone here)
To increase Bridge Officer cool down times by 10%
They can slap on a proc icon that would leave when the last pushed skill was back to normal...
OR
2)
1.0% chance
To randomly effect system cool downs for 10 seconds.
Think of this option as something like the borg assimilation ray... make the debuff clearable by engi team.
OR
3)
1.0% chance
To remove Captain Buffs and apply a offline of Captain powers for 10 seconds.
They may not have code to easily hook to... but could be a cool doff this way... if it removed captain buffs and made them unusable for 10 seconds. Would wipe alphas... remove Shield Freqs... and mess up subnuke timings possibly... but it would NOT remove BOFF buffs that are keeping people alive. Again they could make say Sci team clear the debuff.
OR
4)
1.0% chance
To increase weapon cycle recharges by 20% for 10 seconds
This is another defensive option that the game doesn't need still... it would be useful and wouldn't lead to peoples deaths at the hands of a proc... not my fav idea, but it would be much more useful in PvE then a buff strip.
Don't like .5% chance to remove currently applied buffs? Being more like 10% because you team PvP? Then don't team PvP. >:D
Lol, wait to see what Kerrat is gonna be when more ppl get their hands on them. Then all your lovely decloaking klinks will wipe you out much easier :P.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Most of the heals in this game give some kind of resist. aux to sif, epts, haz, tss, you name it. When all if these can be stripped multiple times within a few seconds, even when resists are reapplied, the healers eventually run out of heals trying to save the person.
-- When you're on a team and being focused by 2 escorts and a team running these, you use rotate shields, tac team, aux to sif then get stripped. then you take heavy damage. receive a tac team and heals from team mates if needed, then stripped again, clutch rsp to stay alive, then instantly stripped again and finally die. All of this happening within 10-20 seconds.
Some of the best cross healing coordinated teams can be ripped apart by less coordinated/skilled/experienced teams. And the wealthier pvp fleets who run them crush anyone without even giving them a chance. either way, its unfair.
So i would have to say i support the decision of 1-3 random abilities stripped, the less, the better. Even stripping 1-2 of these still makes them very effective without toning down the proc chance. but still gives the team a chance to keep a team mate alive in a match.
Isn't this actually the point? How can one compete against a pre-made "super healer" team? There is no such thing as a super damage team unless you can debuff your target. So why shouldn't I be able to debuff you? The only thing that will kill a "super healing" team is a subnuke. And then its cool down is so ridiculously long that it won't matter anyways. Most of the time these "super healers" are running debuffs up the wazoo so it doesn't take much damage from them to kill their targets so you have effectively shut THEM down.
Thank you for making my point earlier... I just see it now...
Well I think hard core PvP'ers need to stop controlling the fate of this game and learn to adapt. Isn't that what PvP is about? Every time someone figures out how to build something that is effective (I don't mean exploiting), its gets nerfed. This needs to stop. There is a difference between exploiting a power and being effective. Some will argue its semantics but really, its not..
The hard core PvP Community needs to stop controlling the game...
And your concerns are still over-exaggerated, I think.
Seriously, ask for some opvp matches. You'll see what we mean better. Also, I can put siphons in my recluse, won't even bother moving, ill whipe the floor with you anytime. Because I figured out a build that's not effective, it's deadly! But unfortunately, even if cryptic didn't do anything to fix the siphons, that's not gonna save your fate. Us asking for ballance is not asking for nerf. I hope you'll understand this, and if you don't, go play few more hundred games and you will.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Seriously, ask for some opvp matches. You'll see what we mean better. Also, I can put siphons in my recluse, won't even bother moving, ill whipe the floor with you anytime. Because I figured out a build that's not effective, it's deadly! But unfortunately, even if cryptic didn't do anything to fix the siphons, that's not gonna save your fate. Us asking for ballance is not asking for nerf. I hope you'll understand this, and if you don't, go play few more hundred games and you will.
Well I agree to disagree with you, and one thing for I sure I disagree on is that you are asking for nerfs (I don't consider it balance because having those doffs MAKE it balanced) in the wrong places and that the PvP Community needs to stop controlling the fate of this game. Many good things were nerfed or toned down because of someone that thinks its too powerful because it can "beat my build". Well I got news for you... Somewhere, someone is better than you. If you can't see that, then PvP might not be the place for you...
Isn't this actually the point? How can one compete against a pre-made "super healer" team? There is no such thing as a super damage team unless you can debuff your target. So why shouldn't I be able to debuff you? The only thing that will kill a "super healing" team is a subnuke. And then its cool down is so ridiculously long that it won't matter anyways. Most of the time these "super healers" are running debuffs up the wazoo so it doesn't take much damage from them to kill their targets so you have effectively shut THEM down.
Thank you for making my point earlier... I just see it now...
its not about super healer teams, its teams that are just fast at sending heals. When you put 15 of them on a team, there is no point in even sending heals to the person, because they're just gonna get stripped constantly. You should queue more often so you can see how deadly they are rarely see 106th in the queues
Many good things were nerfed or toned down because of someone that thinks its too powerful because it can "beat my build". Well I got news for you... Somewhere, someone is better than you. If you can't see that, then PvP might not be the place for you...
Well, for one the PvP community doesn't just ask for nerfs. We ask for better balance, whatever that means. A quick search on the forums will show you that we want to buff many science powers that were made worthless by the new skill system and resists. Lately the community has been asking more for nerfs because Cryptic keeps coming up with new, poorly thought out, poorly tested, rushed, game breaking additions.
Secondly, while it's certinaly true that individuals will ask for nerfs or buffs to suit their own play-style, when the entire PvP community is asking for something to be toned down it's not a case of that skill or item besting one or two builds, it's a matter of that ability or skill besting more or less anything else in the game. Give siphon drones to the likes of Pandas, TSI, or Critz and no team not running siphons will be able to beat them, no matter what they use or how well they coordinate. 15 copies of SNB doffs is not quite that bad, but it's up there. Assuming the other team isn't running siphons or SNB doffs, you aren't going to beat a good team that has them. There's a difference between powerful and game breaking -- when the PvP community comes together like this it's always the later.
Ironically, non-PvPers tend to view everything PvPers ask for as some kind of conspiracy, even when it's an item that is only relevant in PvP like these doffs.
Well I agree to disagree with you, and one thing for I sure I disagree on is that you are asking for nerfs (I don't consider it balance because having those doffs MAKE it balanced) in the wrong places and that the PvP Community needs to stop controlling the fate of this game. Many good things were nerfed or toned down because of someone that thinks its too powerful because it can "beat my build". Well I got news for you... Somewhere, someone is better than you. If you can't see that, then PvP might not be the place for you...
Lol. And this comes from a pveer with his ego so big that can't see the real problem that's related to... Pvp not pve. Good luck killing breen [edit: if that's not too hard for you]!
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
its not about super healer teams, its teams that are just fast at sending heals. When you put 15 of them on a team, there is no point in even sending heals to the person, because they're just gonna get stripped constantly. You should queue more often so you can see how deadly they are rarely see 106th in the queues
We as a fleet do our own intra-fleet PvP. We vigorously test this in our own environment, not the public queues. I agree there are issues in PvP which is why we don't join the public queues. But what should the entire game get nerfed just because you have slight ability to completely shut someone down, especially those that can super heal or super lock down other players? I think these doffs balance that out where as others think it creates an imbalance.
Borticuscryptic,
I personally request that you seriously look at the issues here and weigh all the options on the table before you, which I am sure you will already do without me having to state it. While there are those that think this creates an imbalance, where I do not. These doffs are not a "PvP Killer". Good players will learn to adapt to this change in PvP while others will complain about it. That is just the norm in which we live today. I will not question your ability to make the right call in this matter, just that you carefully look at it and make the best possible judgement with the facts before you. I just strongly urge that you don't make your decision based on a small fraction of the community based on opinions. While I am not a hard-core pvp'er by any means, I do enjoy my PvP. Many great sacrifices to abilities in this game have been made to satisfy a small group of people that affects the rest of the community.To many compromises have been made in this game already and I feel that in itself is a "game killer" as those above me state about these particular doffs. While I am noting that you referenced these doffs as mainly a PvP doff and that they don't benefit PvE players as much as they do the PvP'ers, I feel they are blowing the situation out of proportion based on loosing the "one shot, one kill" or the "End all" builds. These Doffs add balance to the current state of PvP in their current condition.
Thank for you listening to my opinion in this matter.
Sincerely,
Jeremy
106th Fleet
Ok peeps im looking at the big picture here I can understand both sides, but.... isnt PvP about learning to adapt and counter ? Dont tell me there is no way to counter a player using those doffs !!! There are quite a few ways to counter/help you out. For example "Jam Sensors", "Impulse Burst", "Aceton Beam", "Power Syphon", "Viral Matrix", "Tykens Rift". I could go on and on !!! I myself have found many ways to counter sub nuke doff users, and if I can do so then so can you. The methods are here, you just have to find them.
One thing I dont understand is why our Devs sometimes nerf/change skills/ships just because a couple of pvpers think it is "OverPowered". Now thats a feature you dont get in any other MMOS
Let the Skills, Doffs, Ships stay like they are If you think PvP is OverPowered here in STO then go and play EvE Online for a month and then come back and tell me that STO PvP is OverPowered.
PvP is not just point and shoot !!! PvP requires Skill and Strategy !!!
There are quite a few ways to counter/help you out. For example "Jam Sensors"
No there isn't. You're thinking about things from a solo player perspective. You have no idea what team vs. team entails and it shows. Jam Sensors by the way is the single worst skill in the game. There is no reason to ever take it in PvP. Fighting players, let alone an organized team of players, is different than fighting breen.
Jeeze guys, we're talking about a doff that doesn't impact PvE in the slightest, and you still need to come in and argue from positions of complete ignorance thinking you somehow have equal weight in PvP matters. Why?
If you think I'm wrong, I'll gladly help set up a premade match for 106th fleet against Pandas. We'll abide by whatever rules you want, and if you guys get even a single kill I'll concede the point that your voices carry weight, if you'll concede the point that they don't when it ends 15-0.
Ok peeps im looking at the big picture here I can understand both sides, but.... isnt PvP about learning to adapt and counter ? Dont tell me there is no way to counter a player using those doffs !!! There are quite a few ways to counter/help you out. For example "Jam Sensors", "Impulse Burst", "Aceton Beam", "Power Syphon", "Viral Matrix", "Tykens Rift". I could go on and on !!! I myself have found many ways to counter sub nuke doff users, and if I can do so then so can you. The methods are here, you just have to find them.
One thing I dont understand is why our Devs sometimes nerf/change skills/ships just because a couple of pvpers think it is "OverPowered". Now thats a feature you dont get in any other MMOS
Let the Skills, Doffs, Ships stay like they are If you think PvP is OverPowered here in STO then go and play EvE Online for a month and then come back and tell me that STO PvP is OverPowered.
PvP is not just point and shoot !!! PvP requires Skill and Strategy !!!
Galilleos - 106th Fleet
Galileos, there are things cryptic releases and by mistake, are unbalanced. Look at maco shield when was first released. Pveers complain it was "nerfed" when it was actually resisting 90%. Jem shield procing bfi doffs, theta console, etc. pvp community steped up to bring those things to the front and work with cryptic to fix them. It's not fair to say adapt to things that are improperly balanced.
I have those subnuc doffs. I paid an arm and a leg for them. I'm still saying they are stupid. I got them to counter other people that use them. Tell you what, get a team from 106, and lets have a private match. With and without subnuc doffs. And you'll see the difference.
Funny how you guys talk about majority when you admit to not go on public queues nor to pvp against other fleets... How is this defining you as speaking in the name of majority? You're at best a small minority.
Regarding skill and strategy, tell me, what skill and strategy do you need to use subnuc doff? It's exactly the opposite, you're trying to protect your investment that actually is a crutch for lack of skill and strategy. Because any idiot (generally speaking) can use subnuc doff (or siphons or whatever stupid other thing in this game is out of whack).
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
No there isn't. You're thinking about things from a solo player perspective. You have no idea what team vs. team entails and it shows. Jam Sensors by the way is the single worst skill in the game. There is no reason to ever take it in PvP. Fighting players, let alone an organized team of players, is different than fighting breen.
So jaming the sensors of tac going to do a full alpha on you when they are at 5% and they don't have a science team is the worst skill in PvP? Its saved my butt countless times.
Jeeze guys, we're talking about a doff that doesn't impact PvE in the slightest, and you still need to come in and argue from positions of complete ignorance thinking you somehow have equal weight in PvP matters. Why?
Well last I checked this was a public forum and our opinions mattered just as much as yours do. If you want to complain to Cryptic in a non-public forum then why don't you ask for it. Seems you get your way anyways.
I also love the fact that people don't think we don't PvP and that we don't see the impact of powers like you do. That statement is so far from the truth. Its why YOU DON'T see us in the public queues because the hard core PvP community is usually using something to their over advantage to get kills or spaming something that is way more overpowered than a simple .5% buff stripping doff. The dev already stated the math to the proc which I don't view as a threat but apparently you do. As soon as something comes along that can break their "all powerfull" build, they whine. Well if you can't learn to adapt to the ever changing stating of the game, which Cryptic themselves state "Its an ever changing environment that is alive..." or something, then I feel nothing but sorrow for you.
I guess a good comprimise to this doff is this, leave its proc as is, but it can only stack with up to 3 players. I will admit that, but no more... This far, no farther....
If you think I'm wrong, I'll gladly help set up a premade match for 106th fleet against Pandas. We'll abide by whatever rules you want, and if you guys get even a single kill I'll concede the point that your voices carry weight, if you'll concede the point that they don't when it ends 15-0.
Heh, childish to use these ideals to try to make us concede our opinion. "Hey Earl, lets go duke it out in the parking lot till our teeth fall out..." While the Pandas may have learned to exploit ever possible power (since you seem to think pretty highly of yourselves), it won't affect my right to my opinion, just like it won't affect the right to yours. However, regardless of your wantingness of us to concede our point, which we won't, we still just may take you up on your offer.
I have an idea, let us slap a bandaid on a canyon sized wound and call it balance. There is a reason why I don't team PvP, it is even more broken then random PvP or 1v1s.
So jaming the sensors of tac going to do a full alpha on you when they are at 5% and they don't have a science team is the worst skill in PvP? Its saved my butt countless times.
In team PvP there is always a science team to go around. You're also being focus fired, so jamming one guy is going to cut DPS by 1/5th. Taking jam just means one less heal or tractor beam to throw around. If you're trying to argue that JS is a good skill, then you don't understand even the most basic aspects of this game.
Even if your inter-fleet matches are a giant uncoordinated mess where everyone thinks they are captain Kirk, all you do is take the aggro from guy that's hurting you and put it on someone else.
Well last I checked this was a public forum and our opinions mattered just as much as yours do.
Well, you have equal right to post your opinions, as misguided as they may be, that doesn't mean they carry weight. Borticus is one of the actual intelligent guys at Cryptic -- I'm sure he has a decent handle on who the reliable people to glean information from are.
I also love the fact that people don't think we don't PvP and that we don't see the impact of powers like you do. That statement is so far from the truth. Its why YOU DON'T see us in the public queues because the hard core PvP community is usually using something to their over advantage to get kills or spaming something that is way more overpowered than a simple .5% buff stripping doff.
Like I said, accept our challenge for a space PvP match and you guys can set whatever special restrictions and rules that you want. Any item, ship, or power that you think is unfair you can exclude from the match, and just for you, we'll abide by it. Come on, you guys should be able to get one measly kill, no? If you're going to talk the talk, you have to be ready to walk the walk.
Well if you can't learn to adapt to the ever changing stating of the game, which Cryptic themselves state "Its an ever changing environment that is alive..." or something, then I feel nothing but sorrow for you.
I'm offering to let you chose any rules you want and you think we have an issue adapting?
I guess a good comprimise to this doff is this, leave its proc as is, but it can only stack with up to 3 players. I will admit that, but no more... This far, no farther....
The dev already stated the math to the proc which I don't view as a threat but apparently you do.
Now if you think about it too, the math the dev used to calculate this is only for 1 person. Theoretical math too is also not the same as practical situation.
The dev's math was calculated based on ONLY one person using them. not a full team. the dev said that with 3, it would be roughly one proc every 25 secs. so 25 divided by 5(5 team members) would be a single proc, every 5 seconds on average with 5 people using them.
In team PvP there is always a science team to go around. You're also being focus fired, so jamming one guy is going to cut DPS by 1/5th. Taking jam just means one less heal or tractor beam to throw around. If you're trying to argue that JS is a good skill, then you don't understand even the most basic aspects of this game.
Even if you guys are all basically playing solo in you inter-fleet matches all you do is take the aggro off that guy that's hurting you and put it on someone else.
Well, you have equal right to post your opinions, as misguided as they may be, that doesn't mean they carry weight. Borticus is one of the actual intelligent guys at Cryptic -- I'm sure he has a decent handle on who the reliable people to glean information from are.
Like I said, accept our challenge for a space PvP match and you guys can set whatever special restrictions and rules that you want. Any item, ship, or power that you think is unfair you can exclude from the match, and just for you, we'll abide by it. Come on, you guys should be able to get one measly kill, no? If you're going to talk the talk, you have to be ready to walk the walk.
Apparently he does to.
You don't think we have enough EC between us to field 15 subnuke doff teams? You're sorely mistaken.
I'm offering to let you chose any rules you want and you think we have an issue adapting?
Sigh.
Heh, and someone said I have an ego...
Well since you think pretty highly of yourselves, I fail to see why working around a simple doff should be a problem for you. In your situation, with "all the EC's you have" that shouldn't be a problem. Impressive... To say the most...
Comments
I approve this message
In fact that's a GREAT idea, I really like it. Even few sec more to cool down or global cooldown for a tac team or eps would be important. And also the doffs would actually still mean something.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Lol, we got to the point to think that all this junk (tractor spam, ams, siphons ...) are actually not that bad compared to those doffs... Kind of funny. But I like the icon w middle finger up idea, lol, Borticus, please implement it.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
It seems to me that changing the proc rate doesn't help to balance this, because no matter often or rarely it procs, its effect is overly strong. Making the proc happen less often only makes it more of a lottery. I'm sure at some point it could be made unreliable enough to be considered useless, but I doubt it could be made just unreliable enough to be considered fair. On the other hand, it would be nice if it procced often enough that it could be seen doing something.
Therefore, instead of changing the chance of a proc, I think the scope of the proc should be reduced, preferably to removing just one buff -- see how that feels, compared to the current effect.
The other change I would advocate is having the proc grant a immunity to further procs from the doff from all sources for perhaps 20 to 30 seconds. This means that 5 ships on the same team all equipped with these doffs shooting at the same target are less likely to scale overly well.
That sounds reasonable.
@DevolvedOne
+1 to this. Alot of the nerfing in this game is because now someone isn't "All powerful" like they should be and now someone can beat them or their pre-made... Thats a whole another story there that I even don't care to get in on at this time. It would probably cause me to get permbanned...
Me and one other guy were using these all day today in the public queues and we didn't notice A SINGLE game changing effect that those who posted before me are claiming. I think it boils down to it now gives a chance to some of the less experienced PvP'ers out there and actually makes it fun for them now where as it wasn't before...
Leave the doffs as is. THEY ARE FINE. Stop whining and go upstairs once in a while and see the light...
What SHOULD be looked at is the way Tetryon Glide (being fully spec'd in it) does when 2+ ships are running it or Anti-Matter spread spam and lastly Hold Spam... Those are WAY more out of whack than these doffs are and should get top priority...
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
this game is not fine. maybe you should actually read all the concerns before you say all we want to do is nerf things.
there are obviously overpowered powers in this game, if you can't see that then I feel sorry that you cant.
Its you I feel sorry for... I SEE the what's overpowered every time I enter a public queue. SNB Doffs are one that aren't... But to be spammed with holds, lock downs, placates and such 1 second after you free yourself IS overpowered where no such immunity is present such as running two APO doesn't even help is just ridiculous. The same goes for Tetryon Glider, Shield drains etc as well...
Like you said to me, if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I agree things need to be looked at, but the SNB Doffs are not one of them..
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
It sounds like you should be on the receiving end more often
Most of the heals in this game give some kind of resist. aux to sif, epts, haz, tss, you name it. When all if these can be stripped multiple times within a few seconds, even when resists are reapplied, the healers eventually run out of heals trying to save the person.
-- When you're on a team and being focused by 2 escorts and a team running these, you use rotate shields, tac team, aux to sif then get stripped. then you take heavy damage. receive a tac team and heals from team mates if needed, then stripped again, clutch rsp to stay alive, then instantly stripped again and finally die. All of this happening within 10-20 seconds.
Some of the best cross healing coordinated teams can be ripped apart by less coordinated/skilled/experienced teams. And the wealthier pvp fleets who run them crush anyone without even giving them a chance. either way, its unfair.
So i would have to say i support the decision of 1-3 random abilities stripped, the less, the better. Even stripping 1-2 of these still makes them very effective without toning down the proc chance. but still gives the team a chance to keep a team mate alive in a match.
@Minitrckin08 from Turkish RP Heros
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
You definitely don't pvp enough. Go fight against a team that has 3x5 of those and get focused. After you die 10 times, come back and post your experience. Then have same team remove those subnuc doffs. Try again and see the difference. In 1-1, it's not so bad, even though to ballance the fight, both players should have them. Their problem is that it adds a lotto effect that's also exaggerated and should only be available to a sci Cpt. It's similar to fighting a carrier with siphons. Click and tank. No skills at all.
We're not talking about other doffs here, per Borticus' request. Other doffs also need adjustments, we all agree with this, but their trial is not today or on this thread.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Still think hurley's idea is better... But this is not bad either.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
The hard core PvP Community needs to stop controlling the game...
And your concerns are still over-exaggerated, I think.
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
Why not change up what it does all together. Here are a few ideas....
1)
1.0% chance (throw everyone a small bone here)
To increase Bridge Officer cool down times by 10%
They can slap on a proc icon that would leave when the last pushed skill was back to normal...
OR
2)
1.0% chance
To randomly effect system cool downs for 10 seconds.
Think of this option as something like the borg assimilation ray... make the debuff clearable by engi team.
OR
3)
1.0% chance
To remove Captain Buffs and apply a offline of Captain powers for 10 seconds.
They may not have code to easily hook to... but could be a cool doff this way... if it removed captain buffs and made them unusable for 10 seconds. Would wipe alphas... remove Shield Freqs... and mess up subnuke timings possibly... but it would NOT remove BOFF buffs that are keeping people alive. Again they could make say Sci team clear the debuff.
OR
4)
1.0% chance
To increase weapon cycle recharges by 20% for 10 seconds
This is another defensive option that the game doesn't need still... it would be useful and wouldn't lead to peoples deaths at the hands of a proc... not my fav idea, but it would be much more useful in PvE then a buff strip.
Anyone else think of any alternate ideas...
Lol, wait to see what Kerrat is gonna be when more ppl get their hands on them. Then all your lovely decloaking klinks will wipe you out much easier :P.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Isn't this actually the point? How can one compete against a pre-made "super healer" team? There is no such thing as a super damage team unless you can debuff your target. So why shouldn't I be able to debuff you? The only thing that will kill a "super healing" team is a subnuke. And then its cool down is so ridiculously long that it won't matter anyways. Most of the time these "super healers" are running debuffs up the wazoo so it doesn't take much damage from them to kill their targets so you have effectively shut THEM down.
Thank you for making my point earlier... I just see it now...
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
Seriously, ask for some opvp matches. You'll see what we mean better. Also, I can put siphons in my recluse, won't even bother moving, ill whipe the floor with you anytime. Because I figured out a build that's not effective, it's deadly! But unfortunately, even if cryptic didn't do anything to fix the siphons, that's not gonna save your fate. Us asking for ballance is not asking for nerf. I hope you'll understand this, and if you don't, go play few more hundred games and you will.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Well I agree to disagree with you, and one thing for I sure I disagree on is that you are asking for nerfs (I don't consider it balance because having those doffs MAKE it balanced) in the wrong places and that the PvP Community needs to stop controlling the fate of this game. Many good things were nerfed or toned down because of someone that thinks its too powerful because it can "beat my build". Well I got news for you... Somewhere, someone is better than you. If you can't see that, then PvP might not be the place for you...
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
its not about super healer teams, its teams that are just fast at sending heals. When you put 15 of them on a team, there is no point in even sending heals to the person, because they're just gonna get stripped constantly. You should queue more often so you can see how deadly they are
Well, for one the PvP community doesn't just ask for nerfs. We ask for better balance, whatever that means. A quick search on the forums will show you that we want to buff many science powers that were made worthless by the new skill system and resists. Lately the community has been asking more for nerfs because Cryptic keeps coming up with new, poorly thought out, poorly tested, rushed, game breaking additions.
Secondly, while it's certinaly true that individuals will ask for nerfs or buffs to suit their own play-style, when the entire PvP community is asking for something to be toned down it's not a case of that skill or item besting one or two builds, it's a matter of that ability or skill besting more or less anything else in the game. Give siphon drones to the likes of Pandas, TSI, or Critz and no team not running siphons will be able to beat them, no matter what they use or how well they coordinate. 15 copies of SNB doffs is not quite that bad, but it's up there. Assuming the other team isn't running siphons or SNB doffs, you aren't going to beat a good team that has them. There's a difference between powerful and game breaking -- when the PvP community comes together like this it's always the later.
Ironically, non-PvPers tend to view everything PvPers ask for as some kind of conspiracy, even when it's an item that is only relevant in PvP like these doffs.
Lol. And this comes from a pveer with his ego so big that can't see the real problem that's related to... Pvp not pve. Good luck killing breen [edit: if that's not too hard for you]!
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
We as a fleet do our own intra-fleet PvP. We vigorously test this in our own environment, not the public queues. I agree there are issues in PvP which is why we don't join the public queues. But what should the entire game get nerfed just because you have slight ability to completely shut someone down, especially those that can super heal or super lock down other players? I think these doffs balance that out where as others think it creates an imbalance.
Borticuscryptic,
I personally request that you seriously look at the issues here and weigh all the options on the table before you, which I am sure you will already do without me having to state it. While there are those that think this creates an imbalance, where I do not. These doffs are not a "PvP Killer". Good players will learn to adapt to this change in PvP while others will complain about it. That is just the norm in which we live today. I will not question your ability to make the right call in this matter, just that you carefully look at it and make the best possible judgement with the facts before you. I just strongly urge that you don't make your decision based on a small fraction of the community based on opinions. While I am not a hard-core pvp'er by any means, I do enjoy my PvP. Many great sacrifices to abilities in this game have been made to satisfy a small group of people that affects the rest of the community.To many compromises have been made in this game already and I feel that in itself is a "game killer" as those above me state about these particular doffs. While I am noting that you referenced these doffs as mainly a PvP doff and that they don't benefit PvE players as much as they do the PvP'ers, I feel they are blowing the situation out of proportion based on loosing the "one shot, one kill" or the "End all" builds. These Doffs add balance to the current state of PvP in their current condition.
Thank for you listening to my opinion in this matter.
Sincerely,
Jeremy
106th Fleet
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
One thing I dont understand is why our Devs sometimes nerf/change skills/ships just because a couple of pvpers think it is "OverPowered". Now thats a feature you dont get in any other MMOS
Let the Skills, Doffs, Ships stay like they are
PvP is not just point and shoot !!! PvP requires Skill and Strategy !!!
Galilleos - 106th Fleet
No there isn't. You're thinking about things from a solo player perspective. You have no idea what team vs. team entails and it shows. Jam Sensors by the way is the single worst skill in the game. There is no reason to ever take it in PvP. Fighting players, let alone an organized team of players, is different than fighting breen.
Jeeze guys, we're talking about a doff that doesn't impact PvE in the slightest, and you still need to come in and argue from positions of complete ignorance thinking you somehow have equal weight in PvP matters. Why?
If you think I'm wrong, I'll gladly help set up a premade match for 106th fleet against Pandas. We'll abide by whatever rules you want, and if you guys get even a single kill I'll concede the point that your voices carry weight, if you'll concede the point that they don't when it ends 15-0.
Galileos, there are things cryptic releases and by mistake, are unbalanced. Look at maco shield when was first released. Pveers complain it was "nerfed" when it was actually resisting 90%. Jem shield procing bfi doffs, theta console, etc. pvp community steped up to bring those things to the front and work with cryptic to fix them. It's not fair to say adapt to things that are improperly balanced.
I have those subnuc doffs. I paid an arm and a leg for them. I'm still saying they are stupid. I got them to counter other people that use them. Tell you what, get a team from 106, and lets have a private match. With and without subnuc doffs. And you'll see the difference.
Funny how you guys talk about majority when you admit to not go on public queues nor to pvp against other fleets... How is this defining you as speaking in the name of majority? You're at best a small minority.
Regarding skill and strategy, tell me, what skill and strategy do you need to use subnuc doff? It's exactly the opposite, you're trying to protect your investment that actually is a crutch for lack of skill and strategy. Because any idiot (generally speaking) can use subnuc doff (or siphons or whatever stupid other thing in this game is out of whack).
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
So jaming the sensors of tac going to do a full alpha on you when they are at 5% and they don't have a science team is the worst skill in PvP? Its saved my butt countless times.
Well last I checked this was a public forum and our opinions mattered just as much as yours do. If you want to complain to Cryptic in a non-public forum then why don't you ask for it. Seems you get your way anyways.
I also love the fact that people don't think we don't PvP and that we don't see the impact of powers like you do. That statement is so far from the truth. Its why YOU DON'T see us in the public queues because the hard core PvP community is usually using something to their over advantage to get kills or spaming something that is way more overpowered than a simple .5% buff stripping doff. The dev already stated the math to the proc which I don't view as a threat but apparently you do. As soon as something comes along that can break their "all powerfull" build, they whine. Well if you can't learn to adapt to the ever changing stating of the game, which Cryptic themselves state "Its an ever changing environment that is alive..." or something, then I feel nothing but sorrow for you.
I guess a good comprimise to this doff is this, leave its proc as is, but it can only stack with up to 3 players. I will admit that, but no more... This far, no farther....
Heh, childish to use these ideals to try to make us concede our opinion. "Hey Earl, lets go duke it out in the parking lot till our teeth fall out..." While the Pandas may have learned to exploit ever possible power (since you seem to think pretty highly of yourselves), it won't affect my right to my opinion, just like it won't affect the right to yours. However, regardless of your wantingness of us to concede our point, which we won't, we still just may take you up on your offer.
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
In team PvP there is always a science team to go around. You're also being focus fired, so jamming one guy is going to cut DPS by 1/5th. Taking jam just means one less heal or tractor beam to throw around. If you're trying to argue that JS is a good skill, then you don't understand even the most basic aspects of this game.
Even if your inter-fleet matches are a giant uncoordinated mess where everyone thinks they are captain Kirk, all you do is take the aggro from guy that's hurting you and put it on someone else.
Well, you have equal right to post your opinions, as misguided as they may be, that doesn't mean they carry weight. Borticus is one of the actual intelligent guys at Cryptic -- I'm sure he has a decent handle on who the reliable people to glean information from are.
Like I said, accept our challenge for a space PvP match and you guys can set whatever special restrictions and rules that you want. Any item, ship, or power that you think is unfair you can exclude from the match, and just for you, we'll abide by it. Come on, you guys should be able to get one measly kill, no? If you're going to talk the talk, you have to be ready to walk the walk.
Apparently he does too.
You don't think we have enough EC between us to field 15 subnuke doff teams? You're sorely mistaken.
I'm offering to let you chose any rules you want and you think we have an issue adapting?
Sigh.
Now if you think about it too, the math the dev used to calculate this is only for 1 person. Theoretical math too is also not the same as practical situation.
The dev's math was calculated based on ONLY one person using them. not a full team. the dev said that with 3, it would be roughly one proc every 25 secs. so 25 divided by 5(5 team members) would be a single proc, every 5 seconds on average with 5 people using them.
@Minitrckin08 / Turkish RP Heros
Jedi Master Yoda
S'louk
Jack O'Neill
Master Yoda
Darth Yoda
Azure
Heh, and someone said I have an ego...
Well since you think pretty highly of yourselves, I fail to see why working around a simple doff should be a problem for you. In your situation, with "all the EC's you have" that shouldn't be a problem. Impressive... To say the most...
=/\= 106th Fleet =/\=
Website | Fleet Charter | Mission Statement | Forums | Join | F.A.Q.
Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard