Your counter seems to be that since the characters are fictional and don't know the difference, that it should not make any difference how far from the IP the game gets.
Incorrect. My counter is that if you want to break the 4th wall and talk about the person playing the character, that same logic applies equally, no matter what faction they are playing. In other words, a person sitting at a computer controlling a human or klingon is just as much an IP violation as someone controlling a Borg, since humans and klingons were not controlled by people sitting at computers in the IP.
Either the person sitting at the computer is a part of the game's story, or they arent. If they are, then every character is an IP violation since there werent any god-like people sitting at computers controlling every character in the shows. And if they arent, then you cant claim that they are when talking about a borg faction.
So much energy expelled debating something that couldn't make it into the game for at least 2 more years.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Incorrect. My counter is that if you want to break the 4th wall and talk about the person playing the character, that same logic applies equally to the person playing the human or klingon. In other words, a person sitting at a computer controlling a Borg character is no more an IP violation than that same person controlling a human or klingon character, because humans and klingons were not controlled by people sitting at computers in the IP.
The objection isn't that the player isn't a Borg. The objection is that playing a Borg 'properly' unlikely to be entertaining, whereas a Fed or Klingon or any other race with free will can be played in an entertaining way rather easily.
It is like lobbying for the right for Fed players to massacre helpless populations, and even then it wouldn't be quite as big an issue because there are Feds in canon that have gone renegade and done the equivalent.
Look at the complaints over the portion of the Romulan arc where as a Fed you willingly accept obviously flawed orders to slaughter an innocent Romulan research facility, even after investigating it and finding no evidence of anything wrong there, and with no state of war.
And yet even that is merely unlikely. It is still within the IP since Feds have free will.
A Borg only does what they are told, they use very simple tactics, and basically rely on their superior ability to adapt. In short, they don't really make anything other than automated decisions.
Any Borg play would not only be horrendously linear in story, but would be linear and very limited in actual play. Or else you are not playing Borg. Irrespective of who (or what) is at the keyboard.
The objection isn't that the player isn't a Borg. The objection is that playing a Borg 'properly' unlikely to be entertaining, whereas a Fed or Klingon or any other race with free will can be played in an entertaining way rather easily.
Yes, I already replied to your earlier comments along those lines:
People already except slow turn rates on ships as a trade off for other things, so slower ground movement could be comparable. There are are also already different "classes" of Borg that you encounter in the game(some are tougher than others and some are specialized in healing or combat), so it is not inconceivable within the storyline of the game that a new "class" could be created that has greater speed/agility. After all, as the Federation and Klingons continue to advance in technology, it is only logical that the Borg would continue to adapt as well.
As far as not responding proactively, the Borg have already encountered all of the factions in STO, and according to the storyline of the game they are actively invading the alpha and beta quadrant, so there is plenty of gameplay to be had with the pre-existing storyline.
I agree that it wouldnt be practical to try to create any story-heavy Borg missions(like the episodic content that the Feds have). However the way the bare bones star cluster type missions work would be perfect for a Borg faction, because the only difference would be instead of destroying 5 ships you would be assimilating 5 ships. And of course, as you mentioned, a type of monster-play PvP scenrio could work quite well.
Yes, I already replied to your earlier comments along those lines:
And here is one I made earlier today:
Slower movement isn't the same as slower turn rate though... slower movement means taking longer just to get in range. It is a completely different level of annoyance factor.
Other than that, I think we (mostly) agree. The part I was referring to is a bit where it sounded like you were defending another poster's posts. They were saying that because there is re-spawning, then (essentially) anything goes, since dead don't normally re-spawn in the IP (which isn't actually true, since deaths of main characters are rare, only occurring for literary purposes, and even then there are rather a lot of time loops where they do essentially keep re-spawning until they beat the scenario).
And they used an argument similar to yours, that the characters wouldn't know the difference in play....
Slower movement isn't the same as slower turn rate though... slower movement means taking longer just to get in range. It is a completely different level of annoyance factor.
Different things are annoying to different people, and neither you nor I can assume that just because we personally find something annoying that everyone else will as well. If people who are interested in playing a Borg faction are willing to accept a slower movement speed, so be it.
However, as I said previously, there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
Different things are annoying to different people, and neither you nor I can assume that just because we personally find something annoying that everyone else will as well. If people who are interested in playing a Borg faction are willing to accept a slower movement speed, so be it.
However, as I said previously, there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
Having been playing MMOs for over a decade and computer games a lot longer than that, I think I have at least some vague sense of what is generally found annoying and what is not.
Remember it is not a matter of whether a couple people wouldn't mind it. It is a matter of whether there is enough of a market to make it worth developing, taking into account the fact they would be trying to make a profit on doing so, not merely creating for the fun of creating.
Having been playing MMOs for over a decade and computer games a lot longer than that, I think I have at least some vague sense of what is generally found annoying and what is not.
Yes, I too have been playing MMOs for around the same length of time. And it is that very experience, especially being a part of the forums, which has taught be not to presume to put my words into other people's mouths. I have found that the only person it is safe to actually speak for is yourself
Yes, I too have been playing MMOs for around the same length of time. And it is that very experience, especially being a part of the forums, which has taught be not to presume to put my words into other people's mouths. I have found that the only person it is safe to actually speak for is yourself
There are some consistencies though. I have many times heard that it takes too long to run somewhere, or that there needs to be auto-run, or similar complaints.
I have never heard anyone complain auto-run is too convenient or too fast, or it would be a much better game if everyone walked all the time.
There are some consistencies though. I have many times heard that it takes too long to run somewhere, or that there needs to be auto-run, or similar complaints.
I have never heard anyone complain auto-run is too convenient or too fast, or it would be a much better game if everyone walked all the time.
And there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
And there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
Except for the fact all other Borg in game have not, and that it would radically change balance if they did.
Again, change the Borg too much and they are no longer Borg.
Except for the fact all other Borg in game have not, and that it would radically change balance if they did.
Again, change the Borg too much and they are no longer Borg.
As I said in an earlier post, there are already different "classes" of Borg that you encounter in game. So even if a new class were added that moved faster than the existing ones, there is no reason to assume all of the existing content would have to be retroactively updated to include this new class. Therefore there is no reason to assume it would retroactively affect the balance of the existing content. As far as new, more challenging content, that is always welcome at end game.
As I said in an earlier post, there are already different "classes" of Borg that you encounter in game. So even if a new class were added that moved faster than the existing ones, there is no reason to assume all of the existing content would have to be retroactively updated to include this new class. Therefore there is no reason to assume it would retroactively affect the balance of the existing content. As far as new, more challenging content, that is always welcome at end game.
Why, precisely, would the Borg not adapt their entire force to such an obvious advantage?
Your new 'class' is sufficiently different to no longer be Borg.
Why, precisely, would the Borg not adapt their entire force to such an obvious advantage?
You'll have to ask the devs, as they are the ones who already set the precedent that different drones are specialized in different abilities. I am simply using their existing precedent as a basis for future abilities. Furthermore, if we are to assume that the storyline of the game takes place in chronological order, it would not make sense for the missions that have already happened to be updated to include a new class of Borg that was not created within the game's own story until after they took place.
The same reason they are already different "classes" of Borg in game. The current storyline of the game already shows that different drones are specialized for different abilities.
They are not that different. Weapon load out has never been a defining feature of the Borg. The movement limitation has been.
There are something which should be left alone, and borgs are one of them.
Playable tactical cube or even a cube alone alone will take more than half of your screen, unless you want to nerf the size down according to your requirement, and then it won't be a borg anymore.
Then of course, after sometime, some player would demand a borg carrier or borg with melee weapons..Then someone won't be happy that borgs only carry plasma weapons.
so now you can see where it would go.
Grinding for MkIV epic gear?
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
They are not that different. Weapon load out has never been a defining feature of the Borg. The movement limitation has been.
As you say, that "has been" the case. However, there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
There are something which should be left alone, and borgs are one of them.
Playable tactical cube or even a cube alone alone will take more than half of your screen, unless you want to nerf the size down according to your requirement, and then it won't be a borg anymore.
You do not seem to comprehend how scaling works. If you were playing as a large ship like a cube, your camera would simply be zoomed our farther, making the enemy ships look smaller. It would look about the same as it does now when your ship is being attacked by fighters. Not to mention the fact that there are smaller Borg ships like probes and spheres.
As you say, that "has been" the case. However, there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
There is also nothing within canon or the game's story that says they can't suddenly decided to grow fairy wings and wander the universe staging productions of Iolanthe. They are fictional characters. They can be whatever the writers decide they will be.
That wouldn't make it fit in well with canon.
Radical changes to concept are to be avoided.
Borg capable of jumping the shark, would, 'jump the shark.'
There is also nothing within canon or the game's story that says they can't suddenly decided to grow fairy wings and wander the universe staging productions of Iolanthe. They are fictional characters. They can be whatever the writers decide they will be.
That wouldn't make it fit in well with canon.
Radical changes to concept are to be avoided.
Borg capable of jumping the shark, would, 'jump the shark.'
I'm sorry, but I do not see any comparison between a simple increase in mobility and magically growing fairy wings.
I'm sorry, but I do not see any comparison between a simple increase in mobility and magically growing fairy wings.
It is a reference to a Gilbert and Sullivan musical. They did satire by way of musicals, I was doing so by way of a forum post.
It isn't a 'simple increase in mobility.' Limited mobility is a defining characteristic of Borg. Changing that doctrine would be a radical change for them.
I'm sorry, but I do not see any comparison between a simple increase in mobility and magically growing fairy wings.
It's called hyperbole.
It illustrates the idea that if you change something enough, it ceases to be what it was and becomes something else.
It also illustrates the logical fallacy in the argument that because the Borg aren't real we can justify making any changes we want.
Does a change in mobility effectively turn a Borg into something else? That's debatable. Personally I don't think that is a real issue.
The real issue is behavioral. When a Borg ceases to act like a Borg, in the eyes of a third party, is it really still a Borg?
When you put a player in the role of a Borg, and that player behaves in ways that are contrary to the idea behind a Borg hivemind and the suppression of individual personality, is that character really still a Borg?
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
When you put a player in the role of a Borg, and that player behaves in ways that are contrary to the idea behind a Borg hivemind and the suppression of individual personality, is that character really still a Borg?
Of course we can ask that about anything. If I see a bunch of Vulcans wild-dancing on Risa during a "Dance Event" are they really still Vulcans?
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Of course we can ask that about anything. If I see a bunch of Vulcans wild-dancing on Risa during a "Dance Event" are they really still Vulcans?
I'd say they're Vulcans in severe need of psychiatric counseling, is what I'd say.
I might also ask what drugs they accidently got injected with.
Or I might simply choose to ignore it and pretend it didn't happen. Which is also one option for dealing with "unconventional" Borg players.
What is inarguable is that dancing Vulcans are not normal and could be seen as immersion-breaking by anyone who knows what Vulcans are like. And I'd say the exact same thing about dancing Borg.
Dancing Vulcans and Irrational Borg won't spoil my enjoyment of the game either way, so aside from expressing my preference that such things didn't happen too often I'd just live with it.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
When you put a player in the role of a Borg, and that player behaves in ways that are contrary to the idea behind a Borg hivemind and the suppression of individual personality, is that character really still a Borg?
If a Borg faction were ever added, it is highly unlikely it would share social hubs with the other factions. It is also highly unlikely they would even have access to many of the emotes the other factions have available, such as dancing.
A Borg faction would likely consist of a monster play type PvP, combined with a star cluster type PvE system where you are assimilating instead of outright killing, like you do with the Fed/KDF. Due to all of that, there would not be much opportunity to see Borg players behaving in a way contrary to how you think they should.
If a Borg faction were ever added, it is highly unlikely it would share social hubs with the other factions. It is also highly unlikely they would even have access to many of the emotes the other factions have available, such as dancing.
A Borg faction would likely consist of a monster play type PvP, combined with a star cluster type PvE system where you are assimilating instead of outright killing, like you do with the Fed/KDF. Due to all of that, there would not be much opportunity to see Borg players behaving in a way contrary to how you think they should.
If a Borg faction were ever added, it is highly unlikely it would share social hubs with the other factions. It is also highly unlikely they would even have access to many of the emotes the other factions have available, such as dancing.
A Borg faction would likely consist of a monster play type PvP, combined with a star cluster type PvE system where you are assimilating instead of outright killing, like you do with the Fed/KDF. Due to all of that, there would not be much opportunity to see Borg players behaving in a way contrary to how you think they should.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of players making their characters act in an unconventional manner. Besides thats most of the fun of playing a borg character.
Let me get this straight. You are asking for a couple of pvp maps, few exploration cluster missions, a couple of ships, and a social area that looks like it comes from one of the Ground STFs or Assimilation mission? I would have to say that it is the lousiest excuse of a faction ever. That is less than what the KDF had at launch. Although not by much. Sounds like something that people would get tired of in a couple of hours.
I would have to say that it is the lousiest excuse of a faction ever.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and if you would not be interested in playing a Borg faction, that is completely fine. However, this has been an ongoing discussion since launch, so there are obviously other people that are.
Comments
Incorrect. My counter is that if you want to break the 4th wall and talk about the person playing the character, that same logic applies equally, no matter what faction they are playing. In other words, a person sitting at a computer controlling a human or klingon is just as much an IP violation as someone controlling a Borg, since humans and klingons were not controlled by people sitting at computers in the IP.
Either the person sitting at the computer is a part of the game's story, or they arent. If they are, then every character is an IP violation since there werent any god-like people sitting at computers controlling every character in the shows. And if they arent, then you cant claim that they are when talking about a borg faction.
The objection isn't that the player isn't a Borg. The objection is that playing a Borg 'properly' unlikely to be entertaining, whereas a Fed or Klingon or any other race with free will can be played in an entertaining way rather easily.
It is like lobbying for the right for Fed players to massacre helpless populations, and even then it wouldn't be quite as big an issue because there are Feds in canon that have gone renegade and done the equivalent.
Look at the complaints over the portion of the Romulan arc where as a Fed you willingly accept obviously flawed orders to slaughter an innocent Romulan research facility, even after investigating it and finding no evidence of anything wrong there, and with no state of war.
And yet even that is merely unlikely. It is still within the IP since Feds have free will.
A Borg only does what they are told, they use very simple tactics, and basically rely on their superior ability to adapt. In short, they don't really make anything other than automated decisions.
Any Borg play would not only be horrendously linear in story, but would be linear and very limited in actual play. Or else you are not playing Borg. Irrespective of who (or what) is at the keyboard.
Yes, I already replied to your earlier comments along those lines:
And here is one I made earlier today:
Slower movement isn't the same as slower turn rate though... slower movement means taking longer just to get in range. It is a completely different level of annoyance factor.
Other than that, I think we (mostly) agree. The part I was referring to is a bit where it sounded like you were defending another poster's posts. They were saying that because there is re-spawning, then (essentially) anything goes, since dead don't normally re-spawn in the IP (which isn't actually true, since deaths of main characters are rare, only occurring for literary purposes, and even then there are rather a lot of time loops where they do essentially keep re-spawning until they beat the scenario).
And they used an argument similar to yours, that the characters wouldn't know the difference in play....
Different things are annoying to different people, and neither you nor I can assume that just because we personally find something annoying that everyone else will as well. If people who are interested in playing a Borg faction are willing to accept a slower movement speed, so be it.
However, as I said previously, there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
In fact, I'm rather surprised that the OP appears to be serious about this.
Having been playing MMOs for over a decade and computer games a lot longer than that, I think I have at least some vague sense of what is generally found annoying and what is not.
Remember it is not a matter of whether a couple people wouldn't mind it. It is a matter of whether there is enough of a market to make it worth developing, taking into account the fact they would be trying to make a profit on doing so, not merely creating for the fun of creating.
Yes, I too have been playing MMOs for around the same length of time. And it is that very experience, especially being a part of the forums, which has taught be not to presume to put my words into other people's mouths. I have found that the only person it is safe to actually speak for is yourself
There are some consistencies though. I have many times heard that it takes too long to run somewhere, or that there needs to be auto-run, or similar complaints.
I have never heard anyone complain auto-run is too convenient or too fast, or it would be a much better game if everyone walked all the time.
And there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
Except for the fact all other Borg in game have not, and that it would radically change balance if they did.
Again, change the Borg too much and they are no longer Borg.
As I said in an earlier post, there are already different "classes" of Borg that you encounter in game. So even if a new class were added that moved faster than the existing ones, there is no reason to assume all of the existing content would have to be retroactively updated to include this new class. Therefore there is no reason to assume it would retroactively affect the balance of the existing content. As far as new, more challenging content, that is always welcome at end game.
Why, precisely, would the Borg not adapt their entire force to such an obvious advantage?
Your new 'class' is sufficiently different to no longer be Borg.
You'll have to ask the devs, as they are the ones who already set the precedent that different drones are specialized in different abilities. I am simply using their existing precedent as a basis for future abilities. Furthermore, if we are to assume that the storyline of the game takes place in chronological order, it would not make sense for the missions that have already happened to be updated to include a new class of Borg that was not created within the game's own story until after they took place.
They are not that different. Weapon load out has never been a defining feature of the Borg. The movement limitation has been.
That's not true. There have always been different types of drones specialized for specific tasks much like many kinds of ants or termites in a colony.
Playable tactical cube or even a cube alone alone will take more than half of your screen, unless you want to nerf the size down according to your requirement, and then it won't be a borg anymore.
Then of course, after sometime, some player would demand a borg carrier or borg with melee weapons..Then someone won't be happy that borgs only carry plasma weapons.
so now you can see where it would go.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As you say, that "has been" the case. However, there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
You do not seem to comprehend how scaling works. If you were playing as a large ship like a cube, your camera would simply be zoomed our farther, making the enemy ships look smaller. It would look about the same as it does now when your ship is being attacked by fighters. Not to mention the fact that there are smaller Borg ships like probes and spheres.
There is also nothing within canon or the game's story that says they can't suddenly decided to grow fairy wings and wander the universe staging productions of Iolanthe. They are fictional characters. They can be whatever the writers decide they will be.
That wouldn't make it fit in well with canon.
Radical changes to concept are to be avoided.
Borg capable of jumping the shark, would, 'jump the shark.'
I'm sorry, but I do not see any comparison between a simple increase in mobility and magically growing fairy wings.
It is a reference to a Gilbert and Sullivan musical. They did satire by way of musicals, I was doing so by way of a forum post.
It isn't a 'simple increase in mobility.' Limited mobility is a defining characteristic of Borg. Changing that doctrine would be a radical change for them.
It's called hyperbole.
It illustrates the idea that if you change something enough, it ceases to be what it was and becomes something else.
It also illustrates the logical fallacy in the argument that because the Borg aren't real we can justify making any changes we want.
Does a change in mobility effectively turn a Borg into something else? That's debatable. Personally I don't think that is a real issue.
The real issue is behavioral. When a Borg ceases to act like a Borg, in the eyes of a third party, is it really still a Borg?
When you put a player in the role of a Borg, and that player behaves in ways that are contrary to the idea behind a Borg hivemind and the suppression of individual personality, is that character really still a Borg?
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I'd say they're Vulcans in severe need of psychiatric counseling, is what I'd say.
I might also ask what drugs they accidently got injected with.
Or I might simply choose to ignore it and pretend it didn't happen. Which is also one option for dealing with "unconventional" Borg players.
What is inarguable is that dancing Vulcans are not normal and could be seen as immersion-breaking by anyone who knows what Vulcans are like. And I'd say the exact same thing about dancing Borg.
Dancing Vulcans and Irrational Borg won't spoil my enjoyment of the game either way, so aside from expressing my preference that such things didn't happen too often I'd just live with it.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Learning dance steps and their meaning does not need to mean losing yourself in them. Learning about foreign cultures is logical.
And, contrary to their press releases, Vulcans do have emotion. They just normally suppress it.
If a Borg faction were ever added, it is highly unlikely it would share social hubs with the other factions. It is also highly unlikely they would even have access to many of the emotes the other factions have available, such as dancing.
A Borg faction would likely consist of a monster play type PvP, combined with a star cluster type PvE system where you are assimilating instead of outright killing, like you do with the Fed/KDF. Due to all of that, there would not be much opportunity to see Borg players behaving in a way contrary to how you think they should.
This is correct!
Never underestimate the ingenuity of players making their characters act in an unconventional manner. Besides thats most of the fun of playing a borg character.
Let me get this straight. You are asking for a couple of pvp maps, few exploration cluster missions, a couple of ships, and a social area that looks like it comes from one of the Ground STFs or Assimilation mission? I would have to say that it is the lousiest excuse of a faction ever. That is less than what the KDF had at launch. Although not by much. Sounds like something that people would get tired of in a couple of hours.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and if you would not be interested in playing a Borg faction, that is completely fine. However, this has been an ongoing discussion since launch, so there are obviously other people that are.