In Star Trek including novels, there are very few assimilated ships and most are the standard Cube ship.
That may be true, but we are talking about a Borg faction in this game, not within the novels. And in this game, lower level Borg ships are more common than Cubes.
Therefore, assimilated ships are the exception not the rule.
You are talking about something completely different than I am:
You are talking about assimilating entire ships.
I am talking about assimilating specific technological components from ships
While it is true that assimilating an entire ship(what you are talking about) is the exception to the rule(as stated in the quote below),
It was rare for the Borg to keep an assimilated vessel intact, except in instances where a Borg crew was forced to abandon their own ship and commandeer their victims'.
assimilating technological components from ships that are encountered(what I am talking about) is more common(as discussed in the quote below).
With the crew of a vessel assimilated or otherwise subdued, the Borg stripped the ship down for parts to incorporate into their own technology.
Furthermore, I am not talking about physical appearances of seeing a piece of an assimilated ship in the side of a cube, but rather differences in technology. Different technology produces different things, regardless of appearance. Assimilating a quantum torpedo launcher is going to have a different result than assimilating a disruptor bank.
There is absolutely no proof that standard Borg ships have different abilities depending on what ships were assimilated to make it. Every Borg ship has the exact same stats and look. Of course 23rd Century Borg would look different than 25th Century Borg and have different stats, but that is due to them assimilating more species which would cause changes to their technology and ships. If the Borg discovered some advanced technology, then chances are that they would make some Super Cube or some other vessel like the Borg Diamond with a bunch of advanced technology rather than use it in regular Borg Ships. In most cases, regular cubes are necessary, but sometimes a more advanced type of ship is necessary for assimilating advanced alien species. After all, why waste neutronium in a regular Borg Vessel when it would be used better in a Doomsday Cube.
There is absolutely no proof that standard Borg ships have different abilities depending on what ships were assimilated to make it. Every Borg ship has the exact same stats and look.
It is impossible for ships that are made up of different technological components to have the "exact same stats and look". Similar perhaps, but certainly not the "exact same". The only way to have the "exact same look and stats" would be for them to literally be made out of the "exact same" materials. And with different Borg ships assimilating components from different ships, that is not the case. A Borg ship with assimilated Starfleet technology would not be the "exact same" as a Borg ship with assimilated Klingon technology.
That may be true, but we are talking about a Borg faction in this game, not within the novels. And in this game, lower level Borg ships are more common than Cubes.
You are talking about something completely different than I am:
You are talking about assimilating entire ships.
I am talking about assimilating specific technological components from ships
The Borg do not do that. They reverse engineer anything useful and refit their entire fleet. You are turning the Borg into Pakled.
As the quote says, they then incorporate those parts into their own technology. However taking parts from a Fed ship will not produce the "exact same stats and look" as taking parts from a Klingon ship. Different things cannot, by definition, be "the exact same".
As the quote says, they then incorporate those parts into their own technology. However taking parts from a Fed ship will not produce the "exact same stats and look" as taking parts from a Klingon ship. Different things cannot, by definition, be "the exact same".
Into their TECHNOLOGY, not into THAT ship.
Technology means 'general database of tech', as opposed to 'they scrap ships and incorporate the parts into the ship doing the scrapping.'
You keep thinking of them as individuals, rather than an inter-linked collective. Why would they not reverse engineer and disseminate? Your interpretation tosses out the Borg's main advantage.
Technology means 'general database of tech', as opposed to 'they scrap ships and incorporate the parts into the ship doing the scrapping.'
You keep thinking of them as individuals, rather than an inter-linked collective. Why would they not reverse engineer and disseminate? Your interpretation tosses out the Borg's main advantage.
While the Borg are in fact an inter-linked collective, they carry our their agenda through individual ships. If a specific ship is on a specific assignment and encounters a specific piece of equipment which would increase it's effectiveness in any way, it would be illogical not to assimilate that equipment for use on that specific ship. If the collective consciousness is then able to reverse engineer that technology for use on other ships, they will. But there is no guarantee that they will be able to reverse engineer it, meaning that specific piece of equipment would remain unique to the specific ship using it.
While the Borg are in fact an inter-linked collective, they carry our their agenda through individual ships. If a specific ship is on a specific assignment and encounters a specific piece of equipment which would increase it's effectiveness in any way, it would be illogical not to assimilate that equipment for use on that specific ship. If the collective consciousness is then able to reverse engineer that technology for use on other ships, they will. But there is no guarantee that they will be able to reverse engineer it, meaning that specific piece of equipment would remain unique to the specific ship using it.
Where is there ANY evidence that the Borg improve individual ships rather than the overall collective?
Obviously any given ship has to do the dissection. They can't send any given captured ship simultaneously to each Borg.
If they can't reverse engineer it, how would they be able to integrate it safely in the first place? And why wouldn't they bring it home to better/more dedicated facilities?
It is illogical to assimilate tech solely for one ship something that could advance the entire race, and there is no evidence at all that the Borg think the way you are suggesting. Incorporating something you do not understand is not 'incorporation into your technology.'
These are all examples of specific ships being outfitted with specific technology that is not common to the "fleet" as a whole. However, since each individual ship is simply a part of the collective, any improvement to an individual ship is in fact an improvement to the collective as a whole.
These are all examples of specific ships being outfitted with specific technology that is not common to the "fleet" as a whole.
Those are examples of ship classes, not individually modified ships. Some tech might be reserved for higher class ships or for classes specialized for specific purposes, but that isn't what we are discussing.
A repair vessel is going to have better repair facilities than a scout probe, for example. That repair vessel won't have gotten that way randomly by having assimilated some non-Borg repair vessel(s), it will have been built specifically for that role.
These are all examples of specific ships being outfitted with specific technology that is not common to the "fleet" as a whole. However, since each individual ship is simply a part of the collective, any improvement to an individual ship is in fact an improvement to the collective as a whole.
Yeah, I'm with Kimmera on this one. Those are all ship classes designed for specific purposes. This is not Kirby. You do not have a Sphere eat a Galaxy Class to become a Diamond.
Obiviously 250+ replies to this thread means that playing Borg is important to some players here on STO. For admin reading these forums, importance = marketing value. So how does admin tap that value and justify the resource expense in adding more Borg options to the game?
The major issue we face is not playability as many have discussed with PvE and PvP and Liberated and Unliberated but rather the "dead Targ" issue that the KDF faces. Borg are not as popular as some may think, maybe 15% of the player base (definitely not 29% any more) might be interested in this. Can Stahl and company justify to PWE the millions it would likely cost to add a new faction to the game, to appease the 15%? Hardly.
I think a large portion of that 15% would simply be satisifed with a Borg themed lock box. For admin it would be much easier to implement than a whole faction and it would actually turn a profit versus adding a F2P faction or a P2P faction whose cost would be so high that it would turn away most customers.
The lock box rewards could contain Liberated Species unlocks for your account. Perhaps Liberated Trill for Fed and Liberated Orion for KDF. That way LTSers can still say they have the "perk" that somehow justifies forking over $300 USD. :P However if the Liberated Species unlock is equal in rarity to the Jem Bug ship then basically you are buying the LTS one master key at a time so I don't see why there is outrage when STO makes the same amount of profit and players are paying the same price as LTSers. Considering the loss of the stipend, it would actually be a worse deal.
Some of the lesser prizes could contain partially assimilated Fed and KDF ships. For example, take the Intrepid class and make the main saucer look like it is half saucer and half Borg sphere. The interiors would require the most time and resources to make them look half assimiliated as well. Lobi store rewards could contain unlocks of the Voyager series Borg jumpsuit or some new costume designs be created. Again more resources in a resource limited world.
And if you don't like the Borg... don't buy the keys to unlock the box.
If STO was really really concerned about a possible fail, they could offer up dummy lock boxes as a presale decider, see how many unlock them, and then give out preunlocked lock boxes on a 1:1 ratio later when the Assimilated Lock Boxes go live. If not enough boxes sell then just give back keys on a 1:1 basis per each dummy box unlocked.
Obiviously 250+ replies to this thread means that playing Borg is important to some players here on STO. For admin reading these forums, importance = marketing value. So how does admin tap that value and justify the resource expense in adding more Borg options to the game?
The major issue we face is not playability as many have discussed with PvE and PvP and Liberated and Unliberated but rather the "dead Targ" issue that the KDF faces. Borg are not as popular as some may think, maybe 15% of the player base (definitely not 29% any more) might be interested in this. Can Stahl and company justify to PWE the millions it would likely cost to add a new faction to the game, to appease the 15%? Hardly.
I think a large portion of that 15% would simply be satisifed with a Borg themed lock box. For admin it would be much easier to implement than a whole faction and it would actually turn a profit versus adding a F2P faction or a P2P faction whose cost would be so high that it would turn away most customers.
The lock box rewards could contain Liberated Species unlocks for your account. Perhaps Liberated Trill for Fed and Liberated Orion for KDF. That way LTSers can still say they have the "perk" that somehow justifies forking over $300 USD. :P However if the Liberated Species unlock is equal in rarity to the Jem Bug ship then basically you are buying the LTS one master key at a time so I don't see why there is outrage when STO makes the same amount of profit and players are paying the same price as LTSers. Considering the loss of the stipend, it would actually be a worse deal.
Some of the lesser prizes could contain partially assimilated Fed and KDF ships. For example, take the Intrepid class and make the main saucer look like it is half saucer and half Borg sphere. The interiors would require the most time and resources to make them look half assimiliated as well. Lobi store rewards could contain unlocks of the Voyager series Borg jumpsuit or some new costume designs be created. Again more resources in a resource limited world.
And if you don't like the Borg... don't buy the keys to unlock the box.
If STO was really really concerned about a possible fail, they could offer up dummy lock boxes as a presale decider, see how many unlock them, and then give out preunlocked lock boxes on a 1:1 ratio later when the Assimilated Lock Boxes go live. If not enough boxes sell then just give back keys on a 1:1 basis per each dummy box unlocked.
I would enjoy a Borg Lockbox, but having the liberated borg species as a reward requires some serious modification. Lifers would need their liberated borg captains changed to Liberated Borg instead of Liberated Borg Humans or Liberated Borg Klingons. Only allowing regular humanoid options available instead of the more interesting alien options possible would make it easier for the devs to develop them since the implants might be messed up with weird head shapes. Then people that get the main reward in the box could get Liberated Borg Humans and Liberated Borg Klingons with a few modifications to traits so they are not as good as the current liberated borg species like no option for Efficient or Neural Blast.
I would prefer an interesting new Borg ship for a lockbox ship instead of the Liberated Borg species as a reward.
This is more than lightly wishful thinking but what the heck.
I would like to see all races as playable. Borg,Dominion,cardassian,Ferengi,Romulans, in addition to the ones already there. and of course any others i have forgotten to mention.
If a specific ship is on a specific assignment and encounters a specific piece of equipment which would increase it's effectiveness in any way, it would be illogical not to assimilate that equipment for use on that specific ship. If the collective consciousness is then able to reverse engineer that technology for use on other ships, they will. But there is no guarantee that they will be able to reverse engineer it, meaning that specific piece of equipment would remain unique to the specific ship using it.
We are talking about the Borg... they can adapt to different weapons fire in a few shots... they have access to some of the greatest minds of civilizations far older then Vulcans and El Aurians.
That said, if they can figure out how to make a given piece of technology taken from a captured or assimilated ship work, they can figure out how to build it easily... especially when you consider the fact that they tend to download databases off ships they board (as they did their first time on the Enterprise-D) and therefore would have detailed schematics for any tech they took off they ship. That knowledge would be immediately available to the entire collective for the most part and could then be built and installed on every vessel that can find the materials needed to build the device or weapon... in a matter of hours or days every cube in the collective could, and would have it.
Vice Admiral Ross
and others too numerous to name...
We are talking about the Borg... they can adapt to different weapons fire in a few shots... they have access to some of the greatest minds of civilizations far older then Vulcans and El Aurians.
That said, if they can figure out how to make a given piece of technology taken from a captured or assimilated ship work, they can figure out how to build it easily... especially when you consider the fact that they tend to download databases off ships they board (as they did their first time on the Enterprise-D) and therefore would have detailed schematics for any tech they took off they ship. That knowledge would be immediately available to the entire collective for the most part and could then be built and installed on every vessel that can find the materials needed to build the device or weapon... in a matter of hours or days every cube in the collective could, and would have it.
Not if that equipment is made from a type of material their other ships do not yet have access to.
Not if that equipment is made from a type of material their other ships do not yet have access to.
Again... they are the Borg. They downloaded the ships database, hence they know exactly where to find any exotic materials needed to manufacture the technology in question... and they have the firepower to barge in and take over any mining operation present that the originators of the technology might have had operational... so yeah, even if special materials are required, if it is technology the Collective finds of value, they Will take whatever steps are needed to manufacture it.
Vice Admiral Ross
and others too numerous to name...
Again... they are the Borg. They downloaded the ships database, hence they know exactly where to find any exotic materials needed to manufacture the technology in question... and they have the firepower to barge in and take over any mining operation present that the originators of the technology might have had operational... so yeah, even if special materials are required, if it is technology the Collective finds of value, they Will take whatever steps are needed to manufacture it.
I agree that makes sense. However all of that takes time, meaning until it was done there would be a Borg ship flying around with tech that the rest of them didnt have.
If the Borg found a piece of technology that they could not duplicate or not duplicate it easily, then chances are that it would be applied to the best ship that it could be attached to instead of the first ship to find it. There is no point in putting a planet destroyer on a regular Cube when a ship with multiphasic shields and neutronium armor would be a better fit.
I agree that makes sense. However all of that takes time, meaning until it was done there would be a Borg ship flying around with tech that the rest of them didnt have.
Why would it be mounted for use rather than in the ship's lab? You seem to be treating this as if study is something that happens by osmosis simply by having possession.
It would be nice to see something along the Borg being playable, but let me through a wrench into that possibility, what about Species 8472 or that of Tholians as a playable race? Iam really Borg tired, the movies, TV and STO have over played the Borg and while iam not dismissing it we need to look to other factions besides Borg as a playable race. Heck, many are waiting on the Romulans, which should be interesting when it happens.
Commander Shran - You tell Archer, that is three the pink skin owes me!
Comments
That may be true, but we are talking about a Borg faction in this game, not within the novels. And in this game, lower level Borg ships are more common than Cubes.
You are talking about something completely different than I am:
You are talking about assimilating entire ships.
I am talking about assimilating specific technological components from ships
While it is true that assimilating an entire ship(what you are talking about) is the exception to the rule(as stated in the quote below),
assimilating technological components from ships that are encountered(what I am talking about) is more common(as discussed in the quote below).
Furthermore, I am not talking about physical appearances of seeing a piece of an assimilated ship in the side of a cube, but rather differences in technology. Different technology produces different things, regardless of appearance. Assimilating a quantum torpedo launcher is going to have a different result than assimilating a disruptor bank.
It is impossible for ships that are made up of different technological components to have the "exact same stats and look". Similar perhaps, but certainly not the "exact same". The only way to have the "exact same look and stats" would be for them to literally be made out of the "exact same" materials. And with different Borg ships assimilating components from different ships, that is not the case. A Borg ship with assimilated Starfleet technology would not be the "exact same" as a Borg ship with assimilated Klingon technology.
The Borg do not do that. They reverse engineer anything useful and refit their entire fleet. You are turning the Borg into Pakled.
The Borg do in fact takes parts from other ships:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Assimilation#Procedure
As the quote says, they then incorporate those parts into their own technology. However taking parts from a Fed ship will not produce the "exact same stats and look" as taking parts from a Klingon ship. Different things cannot, by definition, be "the exact same".
Into their TECHNOLOGY, not into THAT ship.
Technology means 'general database of tech', as opposed to 'they scrap ships and incorporate the parts into the ship doing the scrapping.'
You keep thinking of them as individuals, rather than an inter-linked collective. Why would they not reverse engineer and disseminate? Your interpretation tosses out the Borg's main advantage.
While the Borg are in fact an inter-linked collective, they carry our their agenda through individual ships. If a specific ship is on a specific assignment and encounters a specific piece of equipment which would increase it's effectiveness in any way, it would be illogical not to assimilate that equipment for use on that specific ship. If the collective consciousness is then able to reverse engineer that technology for use on other ships, they will. But there is no guarantee that they will be able to reverse engineer it, meaning that specific piece of equipment would remain unique to the specific ship using it.
Where is there ANY evidence that the Borg improve individual ships rather than the overall collective?
Obviously any given ship has to do the dissection. They can't send any given captured ship simultaneously to each Borg.
If they can't reverse engineer it, how would they be able to integrate it safely in the first place? And why wouldn't they bring it home to better/more dedicated facilities?
It is illogical to assimilate tech solely for one ship something that could advance the entire race, and there is no evidence at all that the Borg think the way you are suggesting. Incorporating something you do not understand is not 'incorporation into your technology.'
All cubes are not tactical cubes:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg_tactical_cube
Only 1 known Diamond(in canon):
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg_Queen's_vessel
And within this game's story:
http://www.stowiki.org/Unimatrix_0047_Command_Ship
These are all examples of specific ships being outfitted with specific technology that is not common to the "fleet" as a whole. However, since each individual ship is simply a part of the collective, any improvement to an individual ship is in fact an improvement to the collective as a whole.
Those are examples of ship classes, not individually modified ships. Some tech might be reserved for higher class ships or for classes specialized for specific purposes, but that isn't what we are discussing.
A repair vessel is going to have better repair facilities than a scout probe, for example. That repair vessel won't have gotten that way randomly by having assimilated some non-Borg repair vessel(s), it will have been built specifically for that role.
But I am pretty sure you know that.
Yeah, I'm with Kimmera on this one. Those are all ship classes designed for specific purposes. This is not Kirby. You do not have a Sphere eat a Galaxy Class to become a Diamond.
The major issue we face is not playability as many have discussed with PvE and PvP and Liberated and Unliberated but rather the "dead Targ" issue that the KDF faces. Borg are not as popular as some may think, maybe 15% of the player base (definitely not 29% any more) might be interested in this. Can Stahl and company justify to PWE the millions it would likely cost to add a new faction to the game, to appease the 15%? Hardly.
I think a large portion of that 15% would simply be satisifed with a Borg themed lock box. For admin it would be much easier to implement than a whole faction and it would actually turn a profit versus adding a F2P faction or a P2P faction whose cost would be so high that it would turn away most customers.
The lock box rewards could contain Liberated Species unlocks for your account. Perhaps Liberated Trill for Fed and Liberated Orion for KDF. That way LTSers can still say they have the "perk" that somehow justifies forking over $300 USD. :P However if the Liberated Species unlock is equal in rarity to the Jem Bug ship then basically you are buying the LTS one master key at a time so I don't see why there is outrage when STO makes the same amount of profit and players are paying the same price as LTSers.
Some of the lesser prizes could contain partially assimilated Fed and KDF ships. For example, take the Intrepid class and make the main saucer look like it is half saucer and half Borg sphere. The interiors would require the most time and resources to make them look half assimiliated as well. Lobi store rewards could contain unlocks of the Voyager series Borg jumpsuit or some new costume designs be created. Again more resources in a resource limited world.
And if you don't like the Borg... don't buy the keys to unlock the box.
If STO was really really concerned about a possible fail, they could offer up dummy lock boxes as a presale decider, see how many unlock them, and then give out preunlocked lock boxes on a 1:1 ratio later when the Assimilated Lock Boxes go live. If not enough boxes sell then just give back keys on a 1:1 basis per each dummy box unlocked.
Considering the majority of the thread I've bothered to read is just the same two people bickering back and forth, not really.
I would enjoy a Borg Lockbox, but having the liberated borg species as a reward requires some serious modification. Lifers would need their liberated borg captains changed to Liberated Borg instead of Liberated Borg Humans or Liberated Borg Klingons. Only allowing regular humanoid options available instead of the more interesting alien options possible would make it easier for the devs to develop them since the implants might be messed up with weird head shapes. Then people that get the main reward in the box could get Liberated Borg Humans and Liberated Borg Klingons with a few modifications to traits so they are not as good as the current liberated borg species like no option for Efficient or Neural Blast.
I would prefer an interesting new Borg ship for a lockbox ship instead of the Liberated Borg species as a reward.
I would like to see all races as playable. Borg,Dominion,cardassian,Ferengi,Romulans, in addition to the ones already there. and of course any others i have forgotten to mention.
We are talking about the Borg... they can adapt to different weapons fire in a few shots... they have access to some of the greatest minds of civilizations far older then Vulcans and El Aurians.
That said, if they can figure out how to make a given piece of technology taken from a captured or assimilated ship work, they can figure out how to build it easily... especially when you consider the fact that they tend to download databases off ships they board (as they did their first time on the Enterprise-D) and therefore would have detailed schematics for any tech they took off they ship. That knowledge would be immediately available to the entire collective for the most part and could then be built and installed on every vessel that can find the materials needed to build the device or weapon... in a matter of hours or days every cube in the collective could, and would have it.
and others too numerous to name...
Not if that equipment is made from a type of material their other ships do not yet have access to.
Again... they are the Borg. They downloaded the ships database, hence they know exactly where to find any exotic materials needed to manufacture the technology in question... and they have the firepower to barge in and take over any mining operation present that the originators of the technology might have had operational... so yeah, even if special materials are required, if it is technology the Collective finds of value, they Will take whatever steps are needed to manufacture it.
and others too numerous to name...
I agree that makes sense. However all of that takes time, meaning until it was done there would be a Borg ship flying around with tech that the rest of them didnt have.
Why would it be mounted for use rather than in the ship's lab? You seem to be treating this as if study is something that happens by osmosis simply by having possession.