But Borg having individuality does change the plot.
Except, according to the story of the game, they wouldnt have individuality. You are confusing what you as a player sitting in front of a computer know, with what the characters in the game know and the story of the game, which is completely different and completely UNrelated. As long as the NPC characters in the game and whose dialog is written by the devs are not commenting on the Borg suddenly acting like they have individuality, then the plot of the game has not changed.
Except, according to the story of the game, they wouldnt have individuality. Once again, just because I, the player, may know my character dies and re-spawns does not mean the character I play is aware of that, or that the story of the game changes. And just because I, the player, may know that a real person is playing a Borg character rather than it simply being an NPC does not mean the character I play is aware of that, or that the story of the game changes. You are confusing what you as a player know with what the characters in the game know and the story of the game, which is completely different. As long as the NPC characters in the game and whose dialog is written by the devs are not commenting on the Borg suddenly acting like they have individuality, then the plot of the game has not changed.
So they wouldn't move faster than normal Borg (even in PvP), wouldn't express any individuality (even in PvP), etc, etc, etc, etc....?
Game mechanics are aspects of a game that are necessary to make a game playable.
There is a balancing act involved between game mechanics and immersion. The level and nature of changes needed for a playable Borg faction are different from simply re-spawning on death.
What is known in character isn't plot, by the way. It is a plot element. The reader or viewer often knows a lot more than the characters. In the time loop episodes one of the first things the characters have to do is realize they are in a time loop, even though that is obvious to the viewer. If it is a loop that will resolve on its own by the end of the episode, the characters don't even have to ever realize it was a loop. They usually will as part of working their way out of the situation but realization is not strictly necessary to the plot.
Except, according to the story of the game, they wouldnt have individuality. Once again, just because I, the player, may know my character dies and re-spawns does not mean the character I play is aware of that, or that the story of the game changes. And just because I, the player, may know that a real person is playing a Borg character rather than it simply being an NPC does not mean the character I play is aware of that, or that the story of the game changes. You are confusing what you as a player know with what the characters in the game know and the story of the game, which is completely different. As long as the NPC characters in the game and whose dialog is written by the devs are not commenting on the Borg suddenly acting like they have individuality, then the plot of the game has not changed.
You're still avoiding an important point. And that is, this is an MMO.
Once the door opens to a player assuming the role of a non-liberated Borg, that player is free to act -- and to interact -- with other players in any way that he chooses within the limits of the game.
If he's allowed to use Drozana, for example, there's nothing stopping him from going there and behaving in a way that non-liberated Borg simply don't behave. Moreover, NPC's that would normally be expected to react to a Borg with fear and hostility will not (it's a social zone), and players of other factions that would probably want to attack a Borg on sight can't.
This right here breaks the atmosphere of the game and the authority of canon in a very fundamental way. It allows the Borg to be portrayed in ways that are contrary to the intent of the game developers and the holders of the IP. Some people are allowed to play liberated Borg because that does not completely break consistency with the general portrayal of the Borg.
Adding non-liberated Borg players simply can not be done and made consistent with other elements of the game without changing the "story" in a way that CBS will accept. So far, I haven't heard any good rationale for doing that.
Not that it can't be done... just that nobody's given a reasonable suggestion that deals with that issue.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
So they wouldn't move faster than normal Borg (even in PvP), wouldn't express any individuality (even in PvP), etc, etc, etc, etc....?
This may come as a shock to you, but what people say in chat is not part of the official game story/plot. All that trash talk in PvP? Not a part of the game's story/plot. What a shocker!
If he's allowed to use Drozana, for example, there's nothing stopping him from going there and behaving in a way that non-liberated Borg simply don't behave.
I dare say it *should* be fairly obvious that if there were a playable Borg faction they wouldnt have access to areas like that.
Adding non-liberated Borg players simply can not be done and made consistent with other elements of the game without changing the "story" in a way that CBS will accept. So far, I haven't heard any good rationale for doing that.
Not that it can't be done... just that nobody's given a reasonable suggestion that deals with that issue.
The great thing is, neither yours nor my personal opinion matters in the least. 2 high level Cryptic employees(Craig and Dan) have both talked about doing a Borg faction one day, which they wouldnt have done if they didnt already know CBS would allow it.
Having said that, it is highly unlikely the Devs would ever have the resources to make a Borg faction since they would have to finish the KDF first, and then make a Rom faction before any others.
While the Borg is always possible, it's been said several times that Romulans would be the next playable Faction - assuming another were to be added to the game in the future.
This should have ended the thread.
___________________
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
This may come as a shock to you, but what people say in chat is not part of the official game story/plot. All that trash talk in PvP? Not a part of the game's story/plot. What a shocker!
It's not about chat.
It's about the incongruity of Borg being in places and in situations where they don't really belong, and not acting like Borg.
If Cryptic and CBS can accept that, and if the customers (players) can accept it, then there's no issue and Borg should be allowed.
My contention is that neither Cryptic, nor CBS, nor the customers in general are likely to accept that at face value without Cryptic fundamentally altering the story and the missions that are based on it.
What in-game excuse do you give for allowing a Borg to fight against Borg in Infected, for example? Maybe you can ignore that it doesn't seem to make sense, and maybe you can rationalize it so you can enjoy the game, but a lot of people won't.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
The great thing is, neither yours nor my personal opinion matters in the least. 2 high level Cryptic employees(Craig and Dan) have both talked about doing a Borg faction one day, which they wouldnt have done if they didnt already know CBS would allow it.
True that. With certain subjects they flat out tell us CBS wont allow it, but they have never said anything like that regarding a Borg faction, and have actually talked about wanting to do one. They obviously know CBS will allow it, but i doubt they will ever be able to do the leg work to actually make it happen.
It's about the incongruity of Borg being in places and in situations where they don't really belong, and not acting like Borg.
If Cryptic and CBS can accept that, and if the customers (players) can accept it, then there's no issue and Borg should be allowed.
My contention is that neither Cryptic, nor CBS, nor the customers in general are likely to accept that at face value without Cryptic fundamentally altering the story and the missions that are based on it.
What in-game excuse do you give for allowing a Borg to fight against Borg in Infected, for example? Maybe you can ignore that it doesn't seem to make sense, and maybe you can rationalize it so you can enjoy the game, but a lot of people won't.
Its not that hard to figure out; a Borg faction wouldnt have access to certain areas and missions. Common sense.
This may come as a shock to you, but what people say in chat is not part of the official game story/plot. All that trash talk in PvP? Not a part of the game's story/plot. What a shocker!
Some of it is in character though. Captains trash talked at each other in a lot of Trek space battles in canon. Even to the extent of a Klingon captain babbling Shakespearean quotes at Kirk.
Your forum name is Jack Sparrow and you are saying taunting/witty banter isn't part of plot?
I dare say it *should* be fairly obvious that if there were a playable Borg faction they wouldnt have access to areas like that.
Ah! You and I can probably agree about that. But would everybody else who wants to play a Borg be content with that limitation? And what other accomodations would Cryptic need to make if they exclude Borg from common social zones and cross-faction content?
I'm not saying they can't do it. I'm saying there are non-trivial issues they'll have to deal with to make it happen.
The great thing is, neither yours nor my personal opinion matters in the least. 2 high level Cryptic employees(Craig and Dan) have both talked about doing a Borg faction one day, which they wouldnt have done if they didnt already know CBS would allow it.
High-level Cryptic employees have also "talked" about having a complete KDF experience, putting V'Ger in the game, making the Vesta and Ambassador available, having an Open PvP and/or Territory Control zone, and removing zone boundaries for a more seamless space travel experience. Until the details are worked out and it's on the schedule, it's just talk. We know what they'd "like" to put in the game, if they can. Doesn't mean CBS has signed on to that yet.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
True that. With certain subjects they flat out tell us CBS wont allow it, but they have never said anything like that regarding a Borg faction, and have actually talked about wanting to do one. They obviously know CBS will allow it, but i doubt they will ever be able to do the leg work to actually make it happen.
Its not that hard to figure out; a Borg faction wouldnt have access to certain areas and missions. Common sense.
Exactly. The simple truth is the opinions of the people posting in this thread mean NOTHING, myself included. The devs have told us before that the forums do not represent the playerbase, so none of this arguing matters. What does actually matter is that they have said they would like to do a Borg faction on more than one occasion, meaning they know they have the permission.
Some of it is in character though. Captains trash talked at each other in a lot of Trek space battles in canon. Even to the extent of a Klingon captain babbling Shakespearean quotes at Kirk.
Your forum name is Jack Sparrow and you are saying taunting/witty banter isn't part of plot?
Seriously?
No, my witty banter has absolutely nothing to do with the plot of this game.
High-level Cryptic employees have also "talked" about having a complete KDF experience, putting V'Ger in the game, making the Vesta and Ambassador available, having an Open PvP and/or Territory Control zone, and removing zone boundaries for a more seamless space travel experience.
Yep, and I have no doubt CBS has given them permission to do all of those things. But the catch, as I said earlier, is that they dont actually have the resources to do it. Just because you have permission to do something doesnt mean you actually CAN.
True that. With certain subjects they flat out tell us CBS wont allow it, but they have never said anything like that regarding a Borg faction, and have actually talked about wanting to do one. They obviously know CBS will allow it, but i doubt they will ever be able to do the leg work to actually make it happen.
No they don't. At best, they know that CBS is open to the possibility. The details are still up in the air, and CBS can still say no at any time until they've approved it.
I can guarantee they haven't approved it without seeing what Cryptic plans to do with it.
Its not that hard to figure out; a Borg faction wouldnt have access to certain areas and missions. Common sense.
You say that. But it's a pretty significant limitation in an MMO where there's a lot of cross-faction content and a significant portion of the endgame material deals with the Borg.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
No they don't. At best, they know that CBS is open to the possibility. The details are still up in the air, and CBS can still say no at any time until they've approved it.
I can guarantee they haven't approved it without seeing what Cryptic plans to do with it.
Yeah yeah, we all know its a back and forth process where Cryptic keeps making changes until CBS is satisfied. But from the multiple comments they have made about doing a Borg faction one day, they are obviously fairly confident that they would be able to work it out. But if it makes you feel better to think otherwise, feel free
Yeah yeah, we all know its a back and forth process where Cryptic keeps making changes until CBS is satisfied. But from the multiple comments they have made about doing a Borg faction one day, they are obviously fairly confident that they would be able to work it out. But if it makes you feel better to think otherwise, feel free
You are taking such changes as being possible though. That is not always the case.
And they may have been 'fairly confident' when they said it. That doesn't mean they would still feel the same way now, or that CBS would.
The simple truth is the opinions of the people posting in this thread mean NOTHING, myself included. The devs have told us before that the forums do not represent the playerbase, so none of this arguing matters.
If we rule out the idea that Cryptic cares about customer feedback at all, then I suppose I agree with you.
I'm not saying they don't take our feedback with a grain of salt, or that they assume that the forums are the only true representation of what their customers want. But I believe the forums are important to Cryptic, or I wouldn't bother.
Anyway, it's been fun but this debate is making me tired. This particular piece of the Collective is going to find something else to do for awhile.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
You are taking such changes as being possible though. That is not always the case.
And they may have been 'fairly confident' when they said it. That doesn't mean they would still feel the same way now, or that CBS would.
Your right; things do change. However until they say anything to that effect, then their previous comments stand. And as recently as the latest Ask Cryptic, Dan is still talking about the possibility of a Borg faction.
What makes you think being part of a hive mind removes autonomy? You must think Im proposing we play as a drone...no, Im proposing we play as the autonomous entity within Collective that controls a whole ship(s) and its drones. Playing as a Vinculum is akin to being a Captain or Admiral in command of a ship(s) and its crew.
And how do you do anything ground combat related if all you are is a computer giving orders to your ship?
"My frozen dairy-based confectionery attracts all the males of the species to the facilities. They all agree on it's superiority. Indeed, it is superior to yours. I could teach you the finer details but that would require monetary recompense on your part." -The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Right Im going to try and argue FOR a Borg faction , solve some of the problems etc
But please note that given the choice I would REMOVE the borg entirely from the Game
Firstly Ships
Well obviously you would be flying a basic cube
No upgrades would be required and it would not have a "choice" of design or weapons
so that saves on programming time for a start
On Destruction of your cube you would "eject" into the sphere it could also be used in some missions as it is.
For "shuttle " missions you would fly the probe (the tiny 9 borg version not the one the size of voyager)
Well thats no problem everything except the probe already coded
Ships weapons well those are fitted as standard so no need for slots
Same with Shields etc All totally uniform so no need for expensive coding.
Ditto Engines etc
Every cube would have identical stats with every other cube in existance.
Moving on to Crew
Well clearly you would still need something to approximate bridge officers
As a permium race choice these BAFF (Borg Assimilated Function Force) could be customisable (original race and gender implants etc) Z Store purchases (same as the existing Borg Boffs)
With the added bonus of being available as Liberated borg to those who allow such things on their bridges.
AND opening up options for the liberated borg characters to change appearance that I know they long for.
Or you could take "bog standard" drones skinned as the ones in STF and with preset and unchangable Gear
None of them would need to have an armour or shield slot they could just have "Borg" written there
As to weapons well there are several Borg limbs
pick and mix (no COSTS no Qualities no Rarities)
Skill wise well Borg don't HAVE skills individually you would have a "master skill set" instead (at say 10X the expertise cost per level ) which ALL your drones could draw from.
This would of course Not include Hand to hand skills as no borg is capable of those.
(no such thing as Borg Norris)
Your "character" would be the Ship itself not the individuals
Gear
Well naturally you would be on AUTO COLLECT all loot would be sucked up and assimilated converting to Raw materials at a rate of perhaps 1 rm per item
Creating a new Drone slot could cost a few hundred RM doubling for each one until you have your full crew (of dozens)
No non borg weapons would be usable of course
No non borg gear would be kept
and you would not have an inventry as such
As to EC nah
The exchange is used by the living the borg do not trade thus no exchange access needed
Dilith?
Well yes Borg CAN mine
as to trading it for Zen Why not
Pets Nope
Z store ships Nope
Accessable space
yes Borg space would have to be limited (as appearing in EITHER Quadrant would scramble the 6 great factions to destroy you (Federation , Klingon , Romulan , Tholian, Undine ,Ferengi "Borg are bad for business") not that i would not like to see that as a mission as "borg endgame" you fly in against 001 and face EVERYONE else in the galaxy in a borg version of no win (wave 400 anyone??))
So I would suggest The delta quadrant ONLY
(which hey it takes decades to cross)
Enemies there would include the Undine , the khazon , The janeway clones (thousands of those out there) and the LIBERATED Borg who would get a new free transwarp to get there and fight their cousins
Also "the Vengeful sons" (last survivours of Races assimilated / destroyed/ eaten by the borg) who would ALSO get the free transwarp (about half the Alien captains out there have this backstory)
Access to Alpha and Beta quadrants would be TOTALLY Blocked otherwise people would quit in droves
Borg "end game" would be a series of Assimilation missions against the Undine and other "ultra hard" races.
Always ending with the words "loses exceed projected gain Withdraw!" so they can reset for next time
there would be no Mk XII sets (or sets of any kind) for the borg
Pre End game?
Well a variation on Explore (assimilate) set up using the random alien generation system and with enemies scaled to 5 levels ABOVE the borgs level each time seems logical.
Foundry Access
No problem
Now to the other bits
Social areas ??
Borg never socialise they do not even TALK to each other most of the time
so some sort of "hive mind" channel (the only channel they would EVER need except Local)
PVP
Borg Vrs Liberated borg or Vengeful son could be set up in the Delta quad
Borg vrs Klingon or Fed handled with a special instance at Kerrat
In all such situations the BORG would be out numbered so 1 borg queues against 5 Feds
Levels ? and Ranks?
Well Borg HAVE no ranks
Level wise they should Scale as everyone else does (Borg entry mission being "Tutorial where you lost your arm" )
mission briefs would be
"proceed immediately to (coords) Assimilate"
or
"Janeway clones detected in (coords) Evacuate all Drones and Destroy planet"
style
no choice no accept or decline
Fleets
NA
Borg do not socialise
Hope that helps a little
But Borg in the Alpha ? or Beta?
you might wind up on a disection table in a starbase but thats the only time you will get onto one
I'm just going to put in my idea for how to make a Borg faction.
The Borg do not attack everything they see, and they don't send every drone/ship after an enemy. So if people are controlling them and some of them are attacking but other people aren't it makes sense. In space you would control your Borg ship and get the choice of tractor probe (best tractor beam of all the ships), regeneration probe (can heal others and yourself better), regular probe (they'd have to give it some ability to balance with the others like maybe the best tachyon beam), sphere (more weapons), and in the C store you could get a cube for say 1000 zen. For 1000 zen you don't see cubes all over the place but they're not extremely rare. And maybe like 2500 zen you could get a tactical cube. And for more c store options you could have like a different kind of cube that's like a carrier and can launch spheres/probes. When your ship is destroyed you respawn by the borg transwarping in another ship. For equipment you can only have the borg set and plasma weapons, but they would have different types of Borg shields and you can buy plasma weapons with different modifiers. And all ships have the borg engines that let you go warp 20, and you can transwarp to any sector block. For abilities most come built into the type of ship you're using but you would get say three of your choice like boff powers.
On the ground, you control your drone. You would get to chose from tactical or medical drone. The tactical drone has lots of weapons including ranged ones but the medical drones can assimilate. The assimilate ability would have like a thirty second cooldown or something. If you're killed you respawn by another drone being beamed down. As for the tailor, you can change the appearence of your drone with different implants and eyepieces, and this could be explained simply as your just controlling a different drone that looks like that. You can change to a tactical or medical at any time for energy credits or whatever currency as well as the tailor.
As for starbases you would have unimatrixes. You can change your ship, appearence, or type of drone there and they would all be close by in the unimatrix since the drones can only walk.
You wouldn't have STFs, for an obvious reason. Cryptic wouldn't need to develop any missions becuase it could be all in pvp and warzones. They just put in like one Borg battle zone in every sector block (something like kerrat) and put the Borg faction in the pvp queues and that's it. Fairly simple.
I think this could actually be viable for making a Borg faction, as it wouldn't take much to develop and Cryptic would still make money from the sales of cubes and other uprgrades/items in the C store.
The Drones and Ship are one...they are linked. To Command the ship also means you command the drones within it...you're still thinking to meat-bagish.
So when you initiate a ground mission, you're going to be simultaneously controlling 5 borg drones all at once? They're just going to stay in formation and all move exactly as you move? You'll be able to make them start doing the Thriller dance perfectly?
"My frozen dairy-based confectionery attracts all the males of the species to the facilities. They all agree on it's superiority. Indeed, it is superior to yours. I could teach you the finer details but that would require monetary recompense on your part." -The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
But that still gives YOU, the drone that YOU control- complete freedom of movement and choice. This isn't how the Borg operate.
"My frozen dairy-based confectionery attracts all the males of the species to the facilities. They all agree on it's superiority. Indeed, it is superior to yours. I could teach you the finer details but that would require monetary recompense on your part." -The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
According to you. Every other source says otherwise.
I've already provided canon references to the contrary and I can site more.
There is every reason to assume two cubes are exactly the same, at least in the context of this discussion. Everyone in canon from Guinan to Seven to Picard to Q says so. Individual ships do not decide. Decisions are made by the collective, not by the ship, per canon. They may appear to be individual from time to time (such as Seven, pre-liberation, or Picard as Locutus), but that is a show to trap non-Borg. There was no evidence that Locutus had any autonomy.
see above
Again, they don't. They seem to because that ship responds to its particular situation, but it is a collective decision.
see the above
Autonomoujs behavior can been seen in Enterprise episdoe "Regeneration". Autonomous behavior is implied in how the Queen, the embodiment of the Collective is activly keeping Borg vessels from engaging Voyager, why would she have to tell them to stay away unless they acting on their own to engage them? This also implies that though all ships are part of the Collective, not all ships/lower parts of the Collective know everything thats going on, in some cases the left hand of the Collective may not know what the right hand is doing...which isnt uncommon in an organsim.
When the 3 cubes are chasing rushing to engage the Undine, one ship breaks off from the pack to scan Voyager...why do that, The Queen stated that they always knew where Voyager was, that they were keeping tabs on the ship...yet this vessel "felt" the need to do what can only be deemed an unnecessary scan, unless it was acting on its own...perhaps once again, this cube didnt know not to engage Voyager and it had to be told to disengage.
The only "serious" talk about a Borg Player-Faction for STO, is here in the forums among interested players.
Which is getting kinda-sorta nasty... :eek:
I highly doubt Cryptic is doing anything with this particular player request...,
...other than filing it away in the "Perhaps Someday?" File...
And probably having a good chuckle if They happen to read this thread.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
A borg faction would make more sense as the offshoot group we see Lore leading in Decent I & II. That way they could also fight the NCP borg in the game, but with the incentive of freeing them from the collective. They could use modified probes and sphere ships, and maybe even a modified cube as the t5 ship.
Autonomoujs behavior can been seen in Enterprise episdoe "Regeneration". Autonomous behavior is implied in how the Queen, the embodiment of the Collective is activly keeping Borg vessels from engaging Voyager, why would she have to tell them to stay away unless they acting on their own to engage them? This also implies that though all ships are part of the Collective, not all ships/lower parts of the Collective know everything thats going on, in some cases the left hand of the Collective may not know what the right hand is doing...which isnt uncommon in an organsim.
There is no need to hide anything in a collective. Each drone, each ship, each unimatrix serves one purpose. To assimilate new technology and cultures. When one ship is engaged in one sector, there is no reason to believe there is some unknowing cube out there that is unaware of a threat that is now posed against another borg ship. It makes no sense to keep anything from any drone. They dont think for themselves so theres no need to worry about opinions, or choices and betrayal.
When the 3 cubes are chasing rushing to engage the Undine, one ship breaks off from the pack to scan Voyager...why do that, The Queen stated that they always knew where Voyager was, that they were keeping tabs on the ship...yet this vessel "felt" the need to do what can only be deemed an unnecessary scan, unless it was acting on its own...perhaps once again, this cube didnt know not to engage Voyager and it had to be told to disengage.
You answered your own question. How does the Borg keep tabs on Voyager? Does the Queen have a magic 8 ball? No. Her Cubes routinely use sensor data to update the Hive on Voyagers activities. In this instance you have mentioned, Voyager wasnt the objective. But knowing how Janeway behaved and how StarFleet and the Federation was always too curious for their own good. It made sense to scan them and get an up to date intel on what Voyager was doing, what it was carrying and what level of threat it posed if any. It wouldnt be the first time a StarFleet crew had overcome the Borg.
Comments
Except, according to the story of the game, they wouldnt have individuality. You are confusing what you as a player sitting in front of a computer know, with what the characters in the game know and the story of the game, which is completely different and completely UNrelated. As long as the NPC characters in the game and whose dialog is written by the devs are not commenting on the Borg suddenly acting like they have individuality, then the plot of the game has not changed.
So they wouldn't move faster than normal Borg (even in PvP), wouldn't express any individuality (even in PvP), etc, etc, etc, etc....?
Game mechanics are aspects of a game that are necessary to make a game playable.
There is a balancing act involved between game mechanics and immersion. The level and nature of changes needed for a playable Borg faction are different from simply re-spawning on death.
What is known in character isn't plot, by the way. It is a plot element. The reader or viewer often knows a lot more than the characters. In the time loop episodes one of the first things the characters have to do is realize they are in a time loop, even though that is obvious to the viewer. If it is a loop that will resolve on its own by the end of the episode, the characters don't even have to ever realize it was a loop. They usually will as part of working their way out of the situation but realization is not strictly necessary to the plot.
You're still avoiding an important point. And that is, this is an MMO.
Once the door opens to a player assuming the role of a non-liberated Borg, that player is free to act -- and to interact -- with other players in any way that he chooses within the limits of the game.
If he's allowed to use Drozana, for example, there's nothing stopping him from going there and behaving in a way that non-liberated Borg simply don't behave. Moreover, NPC's that would normally be expected to react to a Borg with fear and hostility will not (it's a social zone), and players of other factions that would probably want to attack a Borg on sight can't.
This right here breaks the atmosphere of the game and the authority of canon in a very fundamental way. It allows the Borg to be portrayed in ways that are contrary to the intent of the game developers and the holders of the IP. Some people are allowed to play liberated Borg because that does not completely break consistency with the general portrayal of the Borg.
Adding non-liberated Borg players simply can not be done and made consistent with other elements of the game without changing the "story" in a way that CBS will accept. So far, I haven't heard any good rationale for doing that.
Not that it can't be done... just that nobody's given a reasonable suggestion that deals with that issue.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This may come as a shock to you, but what people say in chat is not part of the official game story/plot. All that trash talk in PvP? Not a part of the game's story/plot. What a shocker!
I dare say it *should* be fairly obvious that if there were a playable Borg faction they wouldnt have access to areas like that.
The great thing is, neither yours nor my personal opinion matters in the least. 2 high level Cryptic employees(Craig and Dan) have both talked about doing a Borg faction one day, which they wouldnt have done if they didnt already know CBS would allow it.
Having said that, it is highly unlikely the Devs would ever have the resources to make a Borg faction since they would have to finish the KDF first, and then make a Rom faction before any others.
This should have ended the thread.
"There is no problem in the universe that can't be solved with a bribe, a paid assassin, or an overpowered fighter." - Chubain from Jumpgate Evolution
It's not about chat.
It's about the incongruity of Borg being in places and in situations where they don't really belong, and not acting like Borg.
If Cryptic and CBS can accept that, and if the customers (players) can accept it, then there's no issue and Borg should be allowed.
My contention is that neither Cryptic, nor CBS, nor the customers in general are likely to accept that at face value without Cryptic fundamentally altering the story and the missions that are based on it.
What in-game excuse do you give for allowing a Borg to fight against Borg in Infected, for example? Maybe you can ignore that it doesn't seem to make sense, and maybe you can rationalize it so you can enjoy the game, but a lot of people won't.
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True that. With certain subjects they flat out tell us CBS wont allow it, but they have never said anything like that regarding a Borg faction, and have actually talked about wanting to do one. They obviously know CBS will allow it, but i doubt they will ever be able to do the leg work to actually make it happen.
Its not that hard to figure out; a Borg faction wouldnt have access to certain areas and missions. Common sense.
Some of it is in character though. Captains trash talked at each other in a lot of Trek space battles in canon. Even to the extent of a Klingon captain babbling Shakespearean quotes at Kirk.
Your forum name is Jack Sparrow and you are saying taunting/witty banter isn't part of plot?
Seriously?
Ah! You and I can probably agree about that. But would everybody else who wants to play a Borg be content with that limitation? And what other accomodations would Cryptic need to make if they exclude Borg from common social zones and cross-faction content?
I'm not saying they can't do it. I'm saying there are non-trivial issues they'll have to deal with to make it happen.
High-level Cryptic employees have also "talked" about having a complete KDF experience, putting V'Ger in the game, making the Vesta and Ambassador available, having an Open PvP and/or Territory Control zone, and removing zone boundaries for a more seamless space travel experience. Until the details are worked out and it's on the schedule, it's just talk. We know what they'd "like" to put in the game, if they can. Doesn't mean CBS has signed on to that yet.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Exactly. The simple truth is the opinions of the people posting in this thread mean NOTHING, myself included. The devs have told us before that the forums do not represent the playerbase, so none of this arguing matters. What does actually matter is that they have said they would like to do a Borg faction on more than one occasion, meaning they know they have the permission.
No, my witty banter has absolutely nothing to do with the plot of this game.
Yep, and I have no doubt CBS has given them permission to do all of those things. But the catch, as I said earlier, is that they dont actually have the resources to do it. Just because you have permission to do something doesnt mean you actually CAN.
No they don't. At best, they know that CBS is open to the possibility. The details are still up in the air, and CBS can still say no at any time until they've approved it.
I can guarantee they haven't approved it without seeing what Cryptic plans to do with it.
You say that. But it's a pretty significant limitation in an MMO where there's a lot of cross-faction content and a significant portion of the endgame material deals with the Borg.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Yeah yeah, we all know its a back and forth process where Cryptic keeps making changes until CBS is satisfied. But from the multiple comments they have made about doing a Borg faction one day, they are obviously fairly confident that they would be able to work it out. But if it makes you feel better to think otherwise, feel free
You are taking such changes as being possible though. That is not always the case.
And they may have been 'fairly confident' when they said it. That doesn't mean they would still feel the same way now, or that CBS would.
If we rule out the idea that Cryptic cares about customer feedback at all, then I suppose I agree with you.
I'm not saying they don't take our feedback with a grain of salt, or that they assume that the forums are the only true representation of what their customers want. But I believe the forums are important to Cryptic, or I wouldn't bother.
Anyway, it's been fun but this debate is making me tired. This particular piece of the Collective is going to find something else to do for awhile.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Your right; things do change. However until they say anything to that effect, then their previous comments stand. And as recently as the latest Ask Cryptic, Dan is still talking about the possibility of a Borg faction.
And how do you do anything ground combat related if all you are is a computer giving orders to your ship?
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The same computer/Vinculum that controls the ship also controls the individual drones.
But please note that given the choice I would REMOVE the borg entirely from the Game
Firstly Ships
Well obviously you would be flying a basic cube
No upgrades would be required and it would not have a "choice" of design or weapons
so that saves on programming time for a start
On Destruction of your cube you would "eject" into the sphere it could also be used in some missions as it is.
For "shuttle " missions you would fly the probe (the tiny 9 borg version not the one the size of voyager)
Well thats no problem everything except the probe already coded
Ships weapons well those are fitted as standard so no need for slots
Same with Shields etc All totally uniform so no need for expensive coding.
Ditto Engines etc
Every cube would have identical stats with every other cube in existance.
Moving on to Crew
Well clearly you would still need something to approximate bridge officers
As a permium race choice these BAFF (Borg Assimilated Function Force) could be customisable (original race and gender implants etc) Z Store purchases (same as the existing Borg Boffs)
With the added bonus of being available as Liberated borg to those who allow such things on their bridges.
AND opening up options for the liberated borg characters to change appearance that I know they long for.
Or you could take "bog standard" drones skinned as the ones in STF and with preset and unchangable Gear
None of them would need to have an armour or shield slot they could just have "Borg" written there
As to weapons well there are several Borg limbs
pick and mix (no COSTS no Qualities no Rarities)
Skill wise well Borg don't HAVE skills individually you would have a "master skill set" instead (at say 10X the expertise cost per level ) which ALL your drones could draw from.
This would of course Not include Hand to hand skills as no borg is capable of those.
(no such thing as Borg Norris)
Your "character" would be the Ship itself not the individuals
Gear
Well naturally you would be on AUTO COLLECT all loot would be sucked up and assimilated converting to Raw materials at a rate of perhaps 1 rm per item
Creating a new Drone slot could cost a few hundred RM doubling for each one until you have your full crew (of dozens)
No non borg weapons would be usable of course
No non borg gear would be kept
and you would not have an inventry as such
As to EC nah
The exchange is used by the living the borg do not trade thus no exchange access needed
Dilith?
Well yes Borg CAN mine
as to trading it for Zen Why not
Pets Nope
Z store ships Nope
Accessable space
yes Borg space would have to be limited (as appearing in EITHER Quadrant would scramble the 6 great factions to destroy you (Federation , Klingon , Romulan , Tholian, Undine ,Ferengi "Borg are bad for business") not that i would not like to see that as a mission as "borg endgame" you fly in against 001 and face EVERYONE else in the galaxy in a borg version of no win (wave 400 anyone??))
So I would suggest The delta quadrant ONLY
(which hey it takes decades to cross)
Enemies there would include the Undine , the khazon , The janeway clones (thousands of those out there) and the LIBERATED Borg who would get a new free transwarp to get there and fight their cousins
Also "the Vengeful sons" (last survivours of Races assimilated / destroyed/ eaten by the borg) who would ALSO get the free transwarp (about half the Alien captains out there have this backstory)
Access to Alpha and Beta quadrants would be TOTALLY Blocked otherwise people would quit in droves
Borg "end game" would be a series of Assimilation missions against the Undine and other "ultra hard" races.
Always ending with the words "loses exceed projected gain Withdraw!" so they can reset for next time
there would be no Mk XII sets (or sets of any kind) for the borg
Pre End game?
Well a variation on Explore (assimilate) set up using the random alien generation system and with enemies scaled to 5 levels ABOVE the borgs level each time seems logical.
Foundry Access
No problem
Now to the other bits
Social areas ??
Borg never socialise they do not even TALK to each other most of the time
so some sort of "hive mind" channel (the only channel they would EVER need except Local)
PVP
Borg Vrs Liberated borg or Vengeful son could be set up in the Delta quad
Borg vrs Klingon or Fed handled with a special instance at Kerrat
In all such situations the BORG would be out numbered so 1 borg queues against 5 Feds
Levels ? and Ranks?
Well Borg HAVE no ranks
Level wise they should Scale as everyone else does (Borg entry mission being "Tutorial where you lost your arm" )
mission briefs would be
"proceed immediately to (coords) Assimilate"
or
"Janeway clones detected in (coords) Evacuate all Drones and Destroy planet"
style
no choice no accept or decline
Fleets
NA
Borg do not socialise
Hope that helps a little
But Borg in the Alpha ? or Beta?
you might wind up on a disection table in a starbase but thats the only time you will get onto one
Not only is that NOT obvious, it is highly UNlikely. You would more likely be in a probe or sphere at most.
its also the Canon ship of the borg (spheres come out of cubes)
doesn't matter what ship we give them as they will not be a threat to the rest of us
restricted safely to the delta and pvp
The Drones and Ship are one...they are linked. To Command the ship also means you command the drones within it...you're still thinking to meat-bagish.
The Borg do not attack everything they see, and they don't send every drone/ship after an enemy. So if people are controlling them and some of them are attacking but other people aren't it makes sense. In space you would control your Borg ship and get the choice of tractor probe (best tractor beam of all the ships), regeneration probe (can heal others and yourself better), regular probe (they'd have to give it some ability to balance with the others like maybe the best tachyon beam), sphere (more weapons), and in the C store you could get a cube for say 1000 zen. For 1000 zen you don't see cubes all over the place but they're not extremely rare. And maybe like 2500 zen you could get a tactical cube. And for more c store options you could have like a different kind of cube that's like a carrier and can launch spheres/probes. When your ship is destroyed you respawn by the borg transwarping in another ship. For equipment you can only have the borg set and plasma weapons, but they would have different types of Borg shields and you can buy plasma weapons with different modifiers. And all ships have the borg engines that let you go warp 20, and you can transwarp to any sector block. For abilities most come built into the type of ship you're using but you would get say three of your choice like boff powers.
On the ground, you control your drone. You would get to chose from tactical or medical drone. The tactical drone has lots of weapons including ranged ones but the medical drones can assimilate. The assimilate ability would have like a thirty second cooldown or something. If you're killed you respawn by another drone being beamed down. As for the tailor, you can change the appearence of your drone with different implants and eyepieces, and this could be explained simply as your just controlling a different drone that looks like that. You can change to a tactical or medical at any time for energy credits or whatever currency as well as the tailor.
As for starbases you would have unimatrixes. You can change your ship, appearence, or type of drone there and they would all be close by in the unimatrix since the drones can only walk.
You wouldn't have STFs, for an obvious reason. Cryptic wouldn't need to develop any missions becuase it could be all in pvp and warzones. They just put in like one Borg battle zone in every sector block (something like kerrat) and put the Borg faction in the pvp queues and that's it. Fairly simple.
I think this could actually be viable for making a Borg faction, as it wouldn't take much to develop and Cryptic would still make money from the sales of cubes and other uprgrades/items in the C store.
So when you initiate a ground mission, you're going to be simultaneously controlling 5 borg drones all at once? They're just going to stay in formation and all move exactly as you move? You'll be able to make them start doing the Thriller dance perfectly?
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yep. You can already issue specific commands to individual Boffs, and when you arent they are being controlled by the AI.
"maggot bait"
"radio shacker"
"scrappy"
and of course "ambulatory biomedical waste"
-The Milkshake Song: Vulcan Edition
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Autonomoujs behavior can been seen in Enterprise episdoe "Regeneration". Autonomous behavior is implied in how the Queen, the embodiment of the Collective is activly keeping Borg vessels from engaging Voyager, why would she have to tell them to stay away unless they acting on their own to engage them? This also implies that though all ships are part of the Collective, not all ships/lower parts of the Collective know everything thats going on, in some cases the left hand of the Collective may not know what the right hand is doing...which isnt uncommon in an organsim.
When the 3 cubes are chasing rushing to engage the Undine, one ship breaks off from the pack to scan Voyager...why do that, The Queen stated that they always knew where Voyager was, that they were keeping tabs on the ship...yet this vessel "felt" the need to do what can only be deemed an unnecessary scan, unless it was acting on its own...perhaps once again, this cube didnt know not to engage Voyager and it had to be told to disengage.
Which is getting kinda-sorta nasty... :eek:
I highly doubt Cryptic is doing anything with this particular player request...,
...other than filing it away in the "Perhaps Someday?" File...
And probably having a good chuckle if They happen to read this thread.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
There is no need to hide anything in a collective. Each drone, each ship, each unimatrix serves one purpose. To assimilate new technology and cultures. When one ship is engaged in one sector, there is no reason to believe there is some unknowing cube out there that is unaware of a threat that is now posed against another borg ship. It makes no sense to keep anything from any drone. They dont think for themselves so theres no need to worry about opinions, or choices and betrayal.
You answered your own question. How does the Borg keep tabs on Voyager? Does the Queen have a magic 8 ball? No. Her Cubes routinely use sensor data to update the Hive on Voyagers activities. In this instance you have mentioned, Voyager wasnt the objective. But knowing how Janeway behaved and how StarFleet and the Federation was always too curious for their own good. It made sense to scan them and get an up to date intel on what Voyager was doing, what it was carrying and what level of threat it posed if any. It wouldnt be the first time a StarFleet crew had overcome the Borg.