The spinning cube has mechanics that work. When you start getting into missions and details of what they would entail, then you are getting into subjective opinions as to what would be popular enough to implement.
And you would not have made the first statement I just quoted if you were accepting other's opinions on the popularity (or lack there of) of any given suggestion you make.
I'm sorry, but I am no longer sure what point you are trying to make related to the subject of this thread. Previously you were arguing that a Borg faction would violate the IP, which we discussed. Now I am not sure. Please elaborate.
I'm sorry, but I am no longer sure what point you are trying to make related to the subject of this thread. Previously you were arguing that a Borg faction would violate the IP, which we discussed. Now I am not sure. Please elaborate.
The question arose as to whether standard Borg restrictions (such as limited movement, limited autonomy, etc) would be acceptable to players as a play style.
You ended up tossing such questions out the window by way of saying you are only discussing what would work mechanically, rather than what would be acceptable or popular enough to warrant implementing a Borg faction.
And now after I have pointed out that you are still discussing more than just mechanics, you are feigning ignorance of that whole exchange.
That poll is 7 years old. Plan and desires certainly do change in that time. But even on this forum, if Cryptic were to just poll the players of its game like they used to, I seriously doubt Borg would come even close to Romulans as the 3rd Faction choice.
Agreed. They've conducted their own research since, but they've never given us any details on if this was a reputable outside firm (Perpetual used Nielsen Media Research), or if it was internal, or what; and it's been some time since they last talked about that, too, so it's also dated.
Perhaps now that they have newly increased funding, they will conduct new research and share it.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
The question arose as to whether standard Borg restrictions (such as limited movement, limited autonomy, etc) would be acceptable to players as a play style.
Yes, you did raise that issue. Some people may be willing to accept it, and others may not. Those that may not would be under no obligation to play something they do not want to. But there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
Yes, you did raise that issue. Some people may be willing to accept it, and others may not. Those that may not would be under no obligation to play something they do not want to. But there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
But there is also nothing in canon that says they could not decide to grow fairy wings and put on productions of Iolanthe.
"Could" and "Would" are very different words, and you keep playing fast and lose with "could", just as you earlier tried to claim you were only discussing what would work mechanically.
You keep setting the bar low so that you can easily step over it and declare your points valid that much more easily.
But there is also nothing in canon that says they could not decide to grow fairy wings and put on productions of Iolanthe.
If a Borg faction is ever added, I do not believe fairy wings are a realistic possibility. I do, however, see some increase in speed as a realistic possibility, with the explanation being their continuous adaption.
ok we can compromise... how about a tribble of borg faction then?
I also do not believe this is a realistic possibility. However, it is possible that the Borg faction would get some kind of additional bonus for using a Borg tribble.
If a Borg faction is ever added, I do not believe fairy wings are a realistic possibility. I do, however, see some increase in speed as a realistic possibility, with the explanation being their continuous adaption.
maybe the borg assimilated a race that has fairy like wings?
maybe the borg assimilated a race that has fairy like wings?
If that happened, then members of that specific race may still have their wings, or they may not. It is hard to predict what parts of a race's natural anatomy the Borg would leave intact, or simply remove and replace with something else.
However, hypothetical fairy wings are something the Borg currently do not possess. Mobility is. Increased mobility is simply an increase of something they already possess, which I believe to be more likely to happen if a Borg faction is ever added to the game.
If that happened, then members of that specific race may still have their wings, or they may not. It is hard to predict what parts of a race's natural anatomy the Borg would leave intact, or simply remove and replace with something else.
However, hypothetical fairy wings are something the Borg currently do not possess. Mobility is. Increased mobility is simply an increase of something they already possess, which I believe to be more likely to happen if a Borg faction is ever added to the game.
but wouldn't the ability to fly count as increased mobility? I mean the ability to fly would make them much more versatile and closer to "perfect"...
but wouldn't the ability to fly count as increased mobility?
Yes, it would. However, walking faster is simply an increase of something they can already do. Flying is not. That is not to say that some sort of built in jet pack would not provide certain tactical advantages, but it is not based upon any existing ability that they currently have.
If a flying race were to exist, then they would need hollow bones and/or other methods to keep their weight down. Otherwise, they will have huge wingspans that will get in the way of other people. Making such a race into a Borg would add to the weight which would cause the wings to be no longer functional.
Of course, if the Borg enters some magical dimension and assimilated a bunch of magical beings, then they would be able to fly, shapeshift, and a ton of other creepy stuff that would make the Borg such a threat that we might as well crawl up into a ball and wait for the inevitable or blow up the sun.
If a flying race were to exist, then they would need hollow bones and/or other methods to keep their weight down. Otherwise, they will have huge wingspans that will get in the way of other people. Making such a race into a Borg would add to the weight which would cause the wings to be no longer functional.
Of course, if the Borg enters some magical dimension and assimilated a bunch of magical beings, then they would be able to fly, shapeshift, and a ton of other creepy stuff that would make the Borg such a threat that we might as well crawl up into a ball and wait for the inevitable or blow up the sun.
pffft this is star trek real life physics are only valid when they don't conflict with the plot
pffft this is star trek real life physics are only valid when they don't conflict with the plot
While that is generally true, it is not likely the plot will ever include fairy wings. Even if they wanted the Borg to fly, there is sufficient technology in Trek to make that happen without wings.
but wouldn't the ability to fly count as increased mobility? I mean the ability to fly would make them much more versatile and closer to "perfect"...
now I wonder why they can't fly already
It took Daleks approximately 50 years of canon development to learn how to fly, and they are at least as successful a race as the Borg. The Daleks had more incentive to fly, though, having been even more mobility limited than the Borg.
So the Borg aren't really due to figure it out for another 25 RL years or so
It took Daleks approximately 50 years of canon development to learn how to fly, and they are at least as successful a race as the Borg. The Daleks had more incentive to fly, though, having been even more mobility limited than the Borg.
So the Borg aren't really due to figure it out for another 25 RL years or so
lol but why can't the borg just assimilate it from someone who already has it? or hell we have seen anti-gravity/ jet packs used by the Feds before why don't the Borg have them?
lol but why can't the borg just assimilate it from someone who already has it? or hell we have seen anti-gravity/ jet packs used by the Feds before why don't the Borg have them?
The answer is, they could. But whether the writers would actually do that is a completely different story(pun).
Before Cryptic can come up with a Borg faction, then they need to decide what type of borg faction is necessary. A Borg Cooperative faction can work in a MMO setting, but a Borg Collective faction can't. In order to make a Borg Collective faction work, then players would need to be a self-autonomous Borg which seems to be a temporary state for certain Borg. Having thousands of such Borg in close proximity would require changing what the Borg is. There is also the problem that players will want to be able to customize their Borg character and ship which makes this scenario further unlikely. Interesting story is also required since that is a major reason why people play missions rather than pvp and do exploraton missions all day long. A mini-faction where you can't choose what your character looks like, ship looks like, bridge officer layout, or equipment layout does not work in an MMO. If you can name one MMO that doesn't let you pick which equipment to use, which powers to use, and what your character looks like, is not some feature like Monster Play, and had decent positive feedback, then a Borg Collective Faction is viable and I would play it for at least a month if it came out.
A Borg Cooperative faction would let players play as close to an actual Borg as they want with modified Borg ships. The Borg Cooperative has a hive mind, borg technology, borg ships, borg culture, but allows players to have the freedom to play their character how they want. If you want to play a Drone that doesn't have much autonomy, then you can. If you want to play a Borg that is trying to deal with the baggage from their past life as a Borg, then you can. If you want to pla a Borg that wants to use what they learned as a Borg for the betterment of the galaxy, then you can.
lol but why can't the borg just assimilate it from someone who already has it? or hell we have seen anti-gravity/ jet packs used by the Feds before why don't the Borg have them?
They presumably consider it a waste of energy or something. There is no ST race that i know of that uses jet packs 24/7 for the majority of their populace.
A Borg Cooperative faction can work in a MMO setting, but a Borg Collective faction can't.
It most certainly can. It may not be something you would personally be interested in, but that does not mean others would not.
In order to make a Borg Collective faction work, then players would need to be a self-autonomous Borg which seems to be a temporary state for certain Borg. Having thousands of such Borg in close proximity would require changing what the Borg is.
Like a few others in this thread, you are confusing the storyline of the game itself with your own real life awareness. Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. And within the storyline of the game, someone playing a Borg character wouldnt have free will, they would simply be part of the collective. The fact that the person playing a Borg would be controlling a single character would simply be a game mechanic, not part of the game's story.
Now, I agree that it not be practical to try to create any story-heavy Borg missions(like the episodic content that the Feds have). However the way the bare bones star cluster type missions work would be perfect for a Borg faction, because the only difference would be instead of destroying 5 ships you would be assimilating 5 ships. Additionally, the Borg are well suited for a type of monster-play PvP scenario.
Lastly, if a Borg faction were ever added, it is highly unlikely it would share social hubs with the other factions. It is also highly unlikely they would even have access to many of the emotes the other factions have available, such as dancing. Therefore, there would not be much opportunity to see a Borg player behaving in a seemingly ridiculous way.
It most certainly can. It may not be something you would personally be interested in, but that does not mean others would not.
Like a few others in this thread, you are confusing the storyline of the game itself with your own real life awareness. Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. And within the storyline of the game, someone playing a Borg character wouldnt have free will, they would simply be part of the collective. The fact that the person playing a Borg would be controlling a single character would simply be a game mechanic, not part of the game's story.
Now, I agree that it not be practical to try to create any story-heavy Borg missions(like the episodic content that the Feds have). However the way the bare bones star cluster type missions work would be perfect for a Borg faction, because the only difference would be instead of destroying 5 ships you would be assimilating 5 ships. Additionally, the Borg are well suited for a type of monster-play PvP scenario.
Lastly, if a Borg faction were ever added, it is highly unlikely it would share social hubs with the other factions. It is also highly unlikely they would even have access to many of the emotes the other factions have available, such as dancing. Therefore, there would not be much opportunity to see a Borg player behaving in a seemingly ridiculous way.
In other words, what you want is a faction that looks like it only took 2 weeks to make since we can reuse the ships, abilities, ground models, and modify a bunch of maps. Only thing that seems complicated whould be balancing the borg ships to fit with other player ships. If that is your definition of a borg faction, then good luck trying to find anyone to play with you since people like to play content that looks like good hard work went into it.
Making something that should be monster play into an actual faction will never work. If its monster play, then it would work since people don't expect much from it and can easily waste a couple of hours on it or more. If its a faction, then people want more like story missions, raids, better ship variety, and other stuff that we expect in the KDF and Fed factions. Borg Collective Monster Play works. Borg Collective Faction doesn't. More groups can be added if Monster Play is added. Wouldn't need to create Breen,Tholian, Dominion, and other factions if they are all included at the same time and they require minimal effort compared to actual factions.
Labelling this as Borg Faction rather than Borg Collective Faction ignores other Borg Faction ideas like a Borg Cooperative Faction and whatever Hugh's group is called. Over 30 years can give a decent history for them. Only the Borg Collective Faction would be limited to current social hubs like Deep Space 9 not other Borg factions.
In other words, what you want is a faction that looks like it only took 2 weeks to make since we can reuse the ships, abilities, ground models, and modify a bunch of maps.
I am not discussing my personal wants, but rather what I believe to be the most likely way a possible Borg faction will work. And as someone who has done a little amateur video game development, I can assure you that it would take more than 2 weeks to do even the bare minimum that would be required to do what we are discussing, simply because the professional process involves more testing and retesting.
Only thing that seems complicated whould be balancing the borg ships to fit with other player ships.
If you are suggesting that Borg ships would be too strong in comparison with the existing player ships, the fact that you can already defeat every Borg ship in a 1 on 1 fight shows they are no longer the big scary bad guy in STO.
If its monster play, then it would work since people don't expect much from it and can easily waste a couple of hours on it or more.
That is essentially what I am discussing, yes; a monster play Borg faction.
I am not discussing my personal wants, but rather what I believe to be the most likely way a possible Borg faction will work. And as someone who has done a little video game development, I can assure you that it would take more than 2 weeks to do even the bare minimum that would be required to do what we are discussing.
Are you sure about that? All Borg Ships that you can pilot as a Borg are already made. No need for unique equipment since every Borg Ship should be the same. Therefore, the power layout and weapon layout is the same for each ship. Only art that needs to be done is UI changes and assimilation animation for ships. Borg don't even need a social hub. Don't create any new ships and art work by reusing current models would make the Borg Faction just programming with a very minor art component.
If you are suggesting that Borg ships would be too strong in comparison with the existing player ships, the fact that you can already defeat every Borg ship in a 1 on 1 fight shows they are no longer the big scary bad guy in STO.
Some powers need to be nerfed like that power draining ability. Certain areas need to be buffed and others nerfed so players can use it.
That is essentially what I am discussing, yes; a monster play Borg faction.
Then it should be called Monster Play or a Star Trek appropriate name than a Borg Collective faction. As I said before, naming it a faction gives players certain expectations. Namely, that what is expected in other factions should eventually be part of the Borg Collective faction. Such as Borg Collective Duty Officer assignments and Borg Collective Fleet Starbases.
Are you sure about that? All Borg Ships that you can pilot as a Borg are already made. No need for unique equipment since every Borg Ship should be the same.
Yes, I am sure. And no, all Borg ships are not the same. From memory-alpha:
With the crew of a vessel assimilated or otherwise subdued, the Borg stripped the ship down for parts to incorporate into their own technology.
Therefore, a Borg ship which has assimilated technology from a Galaxy class ship would be different than a Borg ship which has assimilated technology from a Bird of Prey.
Therefore, a Borg ship which has assimilated technology from a Galaxy class ship would be different than a Borg ship which has assimilated technology from a Bird of Prey.
That is only limited to ships that they have assimilated. In Star Trek including novels, there are very few assimilated ships and most are the standard Cube ship.
With the crew of a vessel assimilated or otherwise subdued, the Borg stripped the ship down for parts to incorporate into their own technology. If possible the assimilated ship was towed into a hangar aboard the attacking Borg ship. (VOY: "Dark Frontier", "Collective") It was rare for the Borg to keep an assimilated vessel intact, except in instances where a Borg crew was forced to abandon their own ship and commandeer their victims'. (Star Trek: First Contact; VOY: "Scorpion, Part II"; ENT: "Regeneration")
Therefore, assimilated ships are the exception not the rule. Sure you might find a piece of a Galaxy ship in one section of a Borg ship and a Bird of Prey in another, but the overall look is the same with very little difference. Any difference in Borg ships is due to building materials and those differences are not noticeable in Borg ships unless it is part of the plot for the main characters to realize a piece of the hull came from a friendly ship.
Comments
I'm sorry, but I am no longer sure what point you are trying to make related to the subject of this thread. Previously you were arguing that a Borg faction would violate the IP, which we discussed. Now I am not sure. Please elaborate.
The question arose as to whether standard Borg restrictions (such as limited movement, limited autonomy, etc) would be acceptable to players as a play style.
You ended up tossing such questions out the window by way of saying you are only discussing what would work mechanically, rather than what would be acceptable or popular enough to warrant implementing a Borg faction.
And now after I have pointed out that you are still discussing more than just mechanics, you are feigning ignorance of that whole exchange.
Is that sufficient elaboration for you?
Agreed. They've conducted their own research since, but they've never given us any details on if this was a reputable outside firm (Perpetual used Nielsen Media Research), or if it was internal, or what; and it's been some time since they last talked about that, too, so it's also dated.
Perhaps now that they have newly increased funding, they will conduct new research and share it.
Me playing UT2k4 (red guy) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0DnP7wXnU
Yes, you did raise that issue. Some people may be willing to accept it, and others may not. Those that may not would be under no obligation to play something they do not want to. But there is nothing within canon or this game's story that says the Borg could never develop greater mobility as they continue to adapt against other civilizations.
Feel free to start a thread about a tribble faction if you wish, although that is not what this thread is about.
But there is also nothing in canon that says they could not decide to grow fairy wings and put on productions of Iolanthe.
"Could" and "Would" are very different words, and you keep playing fast and lose with "could", just as you earlier tried to claim you were only discussing what would work mechanically.
You keep setting the bar low so that you can easily step over it and declare your points valid that much more easily.
ok we can compromise... how about a tribble of borg faction then?
Allow me to settle this - Borg Faction thread, Borg discussion. Let's stay on topic please.
If a Borg faction is ever added, I do not believe fairy wings are a realistic possibility. I do, however, see some increase in speed as a realistic possibility, with the explanation being their continuous adaption.
I also do not believe this is a realistic possibility. However, it is possible that the Borg faction would get some kind of additional bonus for using a Borg tribble.
maybe the borg assimilated a race that has fairy like wings?
True, but then more people wanted to play Klingons than Federation ;-)
If that happened, then members of that specific race may still have their wings, or they may not. It is hard to predict what parts of a race's natural anatomy the Borg would leave intact, or simply remove and replace with something else.
However, hypothetical fairy wings are something the Borg currently do not possess. Mobility is. Increased mobility is simply an increase of something they already possess, which I believe to be more likely to happen if a Borg faction is ever added to the game.
but wouldn't the ability to fly count as increased mobility? I mean the ability to fly would make them much more versatile and closer to "perfect"...
now I wonder why they can't fly already
Yes, it would. However, walking faster is simply an increase of something they can already do. Flying is not. That is not to say that some sort of built in jet pack would not provide certain tactical advantages, but it is not based upon any existing ability that they currently have.
Of course, if the Borg enters some magical dimension and assimilated a bunch of magical beings, then they would be able to fly, shapeshift, and a ton of other creepy stuff that would make the Borg such a threat that we might as well crawl up into a ball and wait for the inevitable or blow up the sun.
pffft this is star trek real life physics are only valid when they don't conflict with the plot
While that is generally true, it is not likely the plot will ever include fairy wings. Even if they wanted the Borg to fly, there is sufficient technology in Trek to make that happen without wings.
It took Daleks approximately 50 years of canon development to learn how to fly, and they are at least as successful a race as the Borg. The Daleks had more incentive to fly, though, having been even more mobility limited than the Borg.
So the Borg aren't really due to figure it out for another 25 RL years or so
lol but why can't the borg just assimilate it from someone who already has it? or hell we have seen anti-gravity/ jet packs used by the Feds before why don't the Borg have them?
The answer is, they could. But whether the writers would actually do that is a completely different story(pun).
A Borg Cooperative faction would let players play as close to an actual Borg as they want with modified Borg ships. The Borg Cooperative has a hive mind, borg technology, borg ships, borg culture, but allows players to have the freedom to play their character how they want. If you want to play a Drone that doesn't have much autonomy, then you can. If you want to play a Borg that is trying to deal with the baggage from their past life as a Borg, then you can. If you want to pla a Borg that wants to use what they learned as a Borg for the betterment of the galaxy, then you can.
They presumably consider it a waste of energy or something. There is no ST race that i know of that uses jet packs 24/7 for the majority of their populace.
It most certainly can. It may not be something you would personally be interested in, but that does not mean others would not.
Like a few others in this thread, you are confusing the storyline of the game itself with your own real life awareness. Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. And within the storyline of the game, someone playing a Borg character wouldnt have free will, they would simply be part of the collective. The fact that the person playing a Borg would be controlling a single character would simply be a game mechanic, not part of the game's story.
Now, I agree that it not be practical to try to create any story-heavy Borg missions(like the episodic content that the Feds have). However the way the bare bones star cluster type missions work would be perfect for a Borg faction, because the only difference would be instead of destroying 5 ships you would be assimilating 5 ships. Additionally, the Borg are well suited for a type of monster-play PvP scenario.
Lastly, if a Borg faction were ever added, it is highly unlikely it would share social hubs with the other factions. It is also highly unlikely they would even have access to many of the emotes the other factions have available, such as dancing. Therefore, there would not be much opportunity to see a Borg player behaving in a seemingly ridiculous way.
In other words, what you want is a faction that looks like it only took 2 weeks to make since we can reuse the ships, abilities, ground models, and modify a bunch of maps. Only thing that seems complicated whould be balancing the borg ships to fit with other player ships. If that is your definition of a borg faction, then good luck trying to find anyone to play with you since people like to play content that looks like good hard work went into it.
Making something that should be monster play into an actual faction will never work. If its monster play, then it would work since people don't expect much from it and can easily waste a couple of hours on it or more. If its a faction, then people want more like story missions, raids, better ship variety, and other stuff that we expect in the KDF and Fed factions. Borg Collective Monster Play works. Borg Collective Faction doesn't. More groups can be added if Monster Play is added. Wouldn't need to create Breen,Tholian, Dominion, and other factions if they are all included at the same time and they require minimal effort compared to actual factions.
Labelling this as Borg Faction rather than Borg Collective Faction ignores other Borg Faction ideas like a Borg Cooperative Faction and whatever Hugh's group is called. Over 30 years can give a decent history for them. Only the Borg Collective Faction would be limited to current social hubs like Deep Space 9 not other Borg factions.
I am not discussing my personal wants, but rather what I believe to be the most likely way a possible Borg faction will work. And as someone who has done a little amateur video game development, I can assure you that it would take more than 2 weeks to do even the bare minimum that would be required to do what we are discussing, simply because the professional process involves more testing and retesting.
If you are suggesting that Borg ships would be too strong in comparison with the existing player ships, the fact that you can already defeat every Borg ship in a 1 on 1 fight shows they are no longer the big scary bad guy in STO.
That is essentially what I am discussing, yes; a monster play Borg faction.
Are you sure about that? All Borg Ships that you can pilot as a Borg are already made. No need for unique equipment since every Borg Ship should be the same. Therefore, the power layout and weapon layout is the same for each ship. Only art that needs to be done is UI changes and assimilation animation for ships. Borg don't even need a social hub. Don't create any new ships and art work by reusing current models would make the Borg Faction just programming with a very minor art component.
Some powers need to be nerfed like that power draining ability. Certain areas need to be buffed and others nerfed so players can use it.
Then it should be called Monster Play or a Star Trek appropriate name than a Borg Collective faction. As I said before, naming it a faction gives players certain expectations. Namely, that what is expected in other factions should eventually be part of the Borg Collective faction. Such as Borg Collective Duty Officer assignments and Borg Collective Fleet Starbases.
Yes, I am sure. And no, all Borg ships are not the same. From memory-alpha:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Assimilation#Procedure
Therefore, a Borg ship which has assimilated technology from a Galaxy class ship would be different than a Borg ship which has assimilated technology from a Bird of Prey.
That is only limited to ships that they have assimilated. In Star Trek including novels, there are very few assimilated ships and most are the standard Cube ship.
Therefore, assimilated ships are the exception not the rule. Sure you might find a piece of a Galaxy ship in one section of a Borg ship and a Bird of Prey in another, but the overall look is the same with very little difference. Any difference in Borg ships is due to building materials and those differences are not noticeable in Borg ships unless it is part of the plot for the main characters to realize a piece of the hull came from a friendly ship.