Hmm, also I think what you need to keep in mind is that once does not equal a pattern. If you're just going by the ExR then that could very well be a mistake, an anomaly. Whether it's more than that or not will begin to be seen with the Nebula.
If you look past the Nebula at the other Refits and the GalX, the other ships in the C-Store, they seem to suggest that balance is desired, and was likely desired with the ExR, but the ultimate result failed to achieve that.
Now it's just a question of if they fix that mistake, or repeat it with the Nebula. That they're asking for opinions and ideas more than two days in advance of the ship's launch is, at least, a good sign...
THIS IS ALL SUBJECT TO CHANGE!!! (unless you forgot what happened with the Excelsior) but better to start talking about it now than weeks from now.
Also keep in mind this ship has been in development for some time (pre-dates the new KDF ships being worked on)
Ok... here it is
Nebula
A StarCruiser variant (Its not a Retrofit. It utilizes the StarCruiser Skill).
Requires:
Rear Admiral
Weapons:
4 Fore
4 Aft
Boff seats (4 Boffs, 11 Powers):
1 Lt Tact
1 Cm Eng
1 LC Science
1 Lt Universal
Mods:
4 Eng
3 Sci
2 Tact
3 Device Slots
750 Crew
Unique Ability:
Tachyon Detection Grid: PBAoE buff that increases your, and allies w/in 10k, Starship Sensor Stat and Cloak Detection. Each buffed ally in turn will buff more allies within 10k of them - thus extending the grid.
Turn Rate = Galaxy
Any other stats not mentioned are the same as a Star Cruiser.
Screenshots attached - the second is one of the mission pod swap out configuration options
Thx dstahl .. this is exactly what i have hoped for in terms of the Nebula. To me it doesn't matter if this is a cruiser or a science ship, i will get the Nebula for my science va1 character then. I really hope the BO station layout stays like this. Ok i would'nt mind if you call it "Heavy Science Cruiser", connect it to the DSSV skill and swap the ENG Commander staion with the SCI LTcm.
The only thing i'm not sure of - is the unique ability able to compete against the the unique abilities of other special ships?!
THIS IS ALL SUBJECT TO CHANGE!!! (unless you forgot what happened with the Excelsior) but better to start talking about it now than weeks from now.
Also keep in mind this ship has been in development for some time (pre-dates the new KDF ships being worked on)
Ok... here it is
Nebula
A StarCruiser variant (Its not a Retrofit. It utilizes the StarCruiser Skill).
Requires:
Rear Admiral
Weapons:
4 Fore
4 Aft
Boff seats (4 Boffs, 11 Powers):
1 Lt Tact
1 Cm Eng
1 LC Science
1 Lt Universal
Mods:
4 Eng
3 Sci
2 Tact
3 Device Slots
750 Crew
Unique Ability:
Tachyon Detection Grid: PBAoE buff that increases your, and allies w/in 10k, Starship Sensor Stat and Cloak Detection. Each buffed ally in turn will buff more allies within 10k of them - thus extending the grid.
Turn Rate = Galaxy
Any other stats not mentioned are the same as a Star Cruiser.
Screenshots attached - the second is one of the mission pod swap out configuration options
This all good and nice. The only question that we NEED an answer to is can we get it IG as VA?
Thats the main problem we are having here No new ships avaliable threw IG mechanics
It's a Cruiser. It wouldn't make sense as a Science ship. It's basically an older kind of Galaxy-class with the ability to equip itself for specific missions.
It had anything from extra torpedo pods (making it more escort-like) to sensory pods (more science like). It is NOT at all a Science ship. It's a CRUISER with the ability to be a little more.
The Universal slot signifies the fact that it can be outfitted for different missions well enough. However...
Anyways here are some changes I made (IN RED):
Boff seats (4 Boffs, 11 Powers):
1 Lt Tact
1 Cm Eng 1 Lt Science
1 LC Universal
I just switched the Universal to Lieutenant Commander and Science to Lieutenant.
I changed that because I think you can further show that this ship is very able to take on any mission. It might not mesh well with the mods but whatever. :P
I can't agree with this post enough....This ship is multi-role to the core, make the universal slot LTC, and for the love of all that is holy please don't give it a DSSV base, I really can't disagree enough with the big Science lean here. I'll deal with the little dissapointments for me so far ( Starcruiser base, Poor turn rate) for the sake of game balance and I know why those are the way they are, but make this ship the MULTI-ROLE it was meant to be, LTC universal slot! I will not buy this ship for anything less.
I always pictured in my head the Excelcior would be the 'engineering' retrofit cruiser. Its initial designation was as a battleship.
The Nebula would be the 'science' retrofit cruiser with the swapable pod.
You would also need a 'tactical' retrofit cruiser, may I suggest the Northampton class frigate/blockade shiip. My personal favorite when I used to play the FASA Star Trek.
It was a tough call whether to make this a Science Vessel or a Cruiser. The IP supports either. In the end we decided to make it a cruiser because it is so big and especially b/c it has so much in common with the Galaxy. So we decided to make it StarCruiser.
We could consider making it a Science Vessel. A Deep Space Science Vessel was the second choice. Doing so would swap the BOff and Mod slots. Also, its weapon slots would need to be reduced, and it would gain Subsystem Targeting. Finally it would have DeepSpace Science Vessel hull and Shield HP. So it would be something like:
Nebula
A DeepSpace Science Vessel variant (Its not a Retrofit. It utilizes the DeepSpace Science Vessel Skill).
Requires:
Rear Admiral
Weapons:
3 Fore
3 Aft
Boff seats (4 Boffs, 11 Powers):
1 Lt Tact
1 LC Eng
1 Cm Science
1 Lt Universal
Mods:
3 Eng
4 Sci
2 Tact
3 Device Slots
750 Crew
Unique Ability:
Tachyon Detection Grid: PBAoE buff that increases your, and allies w/in 10k, Starship Sensor Stat and Cloak Detection. Each buffed ally in turn will buff more allies within 10k of them - thus extending the grid.
Turn Rate = Galaxy
Any other stats not mentioned are the same as a DeepSpace Science Vessel.
Some thoughts.
1) The turn rate is awfully low for a ship that's smaller than the Galaxy. I would expect its main perk would be higher maneuverability due to that (while it would lose hull and crew). FOr a science ship, this is particularly bad, since too many science powers are 90° arc powers.
2) It would make sense to make it a Science Ship.
3) As a Science ship, the Universal Slot will probably rarely if ever used for Tactical Lt. With only 3 weapon slots per arc and no ability to carry cannons, its main focus can and will never be on firepower. The Bird of Prey works with tactical slots because it has 4 front arc weapons and can carry dual cannons, which at least gets it a powerful frontal attack.
A potential solution might be
- Drop the Science Vessels Target Subsystem skill.
- Add one front arc weapon slot _or_ add the ability to carry dual cannons. (the latter only works if you also improve the turning rate) or give it a 4/2 weapon layout at least.
4) Does the Tachyon Grid ability offer any advantages when people are not using cloak? Like the ability to just detect ships a a further distance (beyond the 20-30 km it currently is at). Some kind of combat buff?
5) Either way, since it has only one Universal BO slot instead of all slots being universal, losing an Ensign might be a little much. I would suggest adding one Tactical Console for a 4/3/3 layout, or adding a 4th device.
Honest feedback is... as a Cruiser it isn't balanced.
The most honest feedback I can give is ...
For 15 bucks, I'd buy the Nebula dstahl proposes.
I wouldn't pay a single dime for the DSSV version Gecko said they talked about.
Since this is a C-Store item ... there's the economic breakdown in the most honest and simple terms I can deliver. One purchase is worth the money. The other is not.
First make a base Nebula, without the mission pod attached:
Weapons:
3 Fore
3 Aft
Boff seats
1 Lt Tact
1 Cm Eng
1 LC Science
Mods:
2 Eng
2 Sci
2 Tact
3 Device Slots
750 Crew
Turn Rate = Galaxy
Any other stats not mentioned are the same as a Star Cruiser.
Energy config:
neutral, no boni/mali
Next make 3 different mission pods:
AWACS (Science)
Unique Ability:
Tachyon Detection Grid: PBAoE buff that increases your, and allies w/in 10k, Starship Sensor Stat and Cloak Detection. Each buffed ally in turn will buff more allies within 10k of them - thus extending the grid.
Adds
1 Commander Science BOFF station
Science ship shield boost
+2 Sci Mod
+1 Eng Mod
Science ship energy config
10% turning rate boost
ASSAULT (Tactical)
Unique Ability:
Torpedo Barage: In-build torpedospread 1 ability and photon torpedo luncher. Cool down 45 seconds
Adds:
1 Commander Tac station
30% turning rate boost
escort energy config
+1/+1 weapon slots
+2 Tac mod
+1 Eng Mod
SUPPORT (Engineer)
Unique Ability:
Field Repair Facility: Grants a 10% bonus to healing and repair abilities when used to friendly ships in a 10k radius. Cooldown 45 seconds
Adds:
1 Commander Enginer station
20% turning rate boost
cruiser energy config
+1/0 weapon
+1 Eng mod
+1 Sci mod
+1 Tac Mod
+10% hull
+1 Device slot
Swapping out missions pods can only be done at a starbase with a ship tailor npc.
Swapping a pod out costs 1000 credits and has a cooldown before the ship is usable again of 5 minutes.
This is a multi role ship. Period. Thats its cannon role, that should be its role here, and we don't really have a multi role ship fed side. I'll take the star cruiser base ect but why marginalize all the other captains out there who love this ship design as much as I do by LIMITING a MULTIROLE ship to be mostly Science? I dont' think we need 3 different ships out there of nebula design, we just need to change TWO things of that original setup:
LT cmd Universal slot= MUTLIROLE, everyones happy
GALAXY TURN RATE? If someone did want to go Science it would really suck trying to keep those 90 degree sci abilities within range! it a little smaller, just do a little better than galaxy at least please.
C'mon guys, this could be the cruiser for everyone, just change the universal slot to LTC and you're there.
Maybe there is connection between the need to "pacify" your friends and they´re being drunks.
Actually they're mostly happy, well behaved drunks (as far as anything which might require being pacified). They are, however, also thirsty drunks. You can't talk and slurp beer at the same time without risking a suds-based drowning incident, so the buying of beer is an excellent way to obtain some "quite time"...:D
I read the entire thread and the discussion seems to be devolving to ad hominem.
Not really.
Mostly it's devolved into vocal cynicism toward the ship's future as far as balance and the C-Store goes. I don't really see anyone here trying to circumvent the arguments of another based on the people presenting it.
I can't agree with this post enough....This ship is multi-role to the core, make the universal slot LTC, and for the love of all that is holy please don't give it a DSSV base, I really can't disagree enough with the big Science lean here. I'll deal with the little dissapointments for me so far ( Starcruiser base, Poor turn rate) for the sake of game balance and I know why those are the way they are, but make this ship the MULTI-ROLE it was meant to be, LTC universal slot! I will not buy this ship for anything less.
Again, the problem with this approach is that the ship gains FAR too much of the BoP's versatility and nowhere near enough of it's fragility. The BoP's turn rate and battle cloak alone don't cover that. Alternating shield facings doesn't help when you have no shields on any facing as backup, and with a 4/2 weapons setup you need to have that movement so you can keep enemies in the only arc where you have weapons, whereas on a 4/4 Cruiser setup, well, you really don't lose much effectiveness arc-to-arc. Also, dropping your shields while under fire when you only have 24,000 hull is often fatal.
The suggested Cruiser setup just isn't balanced. If it's included I'm going to have to require that Cryptic toss another weapon slot on the back end of my Hegh'ta and up it's hull and shields to Reconnaissance Science Vessel levels.
3) As a Science ship, the Universal Slot will probably rarely if ever used for Tactical Lt. With only 3 weapon slots per arc and no ability to carry cannons, its main focus can and will never be on firepower.
It can, however, go between Science and Engineering.
5) Either way, since it has only one Universal BO slot instead of all slots being universal, losing an Ensign might be a little much. I would suggest adding one Tactical Console for a 4/3/3 layout, or adding a 4th device.
Nine is the max console limit for any ship in game as it stands now. A tenth seems like it's pushing things. Also, although a BoP loses only one Ensign slot for it's universal BOff slots as well, it also has the absolute lowest hull, shields and device slots available in the game, and except for the T5 Defiant Refit it also has the least crew.
Do you want to take a few more of the Hegh'ta's disadvantages? Because it cost a lot more than a single Ensign BOff slot to get what it has.
I wouldn't pay a single dime for the DSSV version Gecko said they talked about.
Since this is a C-Store item ... there's the economic breakdown in the most honest and simple terms I can deliver. One purchase is worth the money. The other is not.
And the one purchase is worth your money because you know it's not balanced.
And the one purchase is worth your money because you know it's not balanced.
The excelsior is not balanced either. I don't see that as an issue where the C-Store is concerned. If this ship is not better than a retrofit Intrepid, then it shouldn't be put up for sale. It's simple economics. I can just get a retro intrepid if I want a science ship from the c-store. Or use an RSV if I don't want to even bother.
And the one purchase is worth your money because you know it's not balanced.
exactly the point. the price tag makes the question of it's "hard" balance irrellevant . . . it must have an inherent advantage (in proportion to its extra cost) over the 2nd class "free" ships to warrant the additional fee attached to it.
all the ship's stats have been given to us for discussion, except the most important one . . . it's cost.
If the sole argument against a LTC universal slot is that it makes BoP's vulnerable ( A universal slot killing machine of unbalanced proportions) i'm not sure that matters. The excelsior got a LTC slot but less survivability, Those sort of balances can be made here. If they're going to give a universal slot, it should be one of value, and not a Token gesture. its either versatile or its not.
Oh my goodness, why does everyone want to try and overcomplamicate this? I am a sci-cap myself, and have been since Closed Beta, and I have to say that the Nebula as an alternate to the DSSV would be hella dumb. It has so many advantages to being a starcruiser variant:
Two extra weapon slots (for a whopping 8 compared to a simple 6 as a sci ship)
Same Base Hull as a starcruiser (oh my gosh, are these things durable as heck)
Wicked Engineering Slots (natch, being a cruiser)
Decent Tac and Sci Slots (to be expected, being a T5 cruiser)
Lotsa Sci Cons for a cruiser
What's gonna pull it all together as the perfect representation of the multi-purpose cruiser we all know and love is that tasty, dare I say, sexy, Lt Universal slot. This is what brings it to the house, gentlemen.
Put a Science BOFF there, and you got, well, a Heavy Science Cruiser.
Put an Engineer BOFF there, and you have a RIDICULOUS repair and support ship.
Put a Tactical BOFF there, and hello nurse! You can have a gunboat or a beam cruiser.
As a DSSV variant, the Nebula would really lose out. It'd have less weapons, less hull, and its maneuverability would still be the same as the cruiser variant (garbage). Sure, it'd get subsystem targeting (my personal favorite feature of Science ships), but so what. As a starcruiser variant, it's longevity and offensive power would more than make up for that. And with the Universal BOFF slot, as I pointed out, would make the Nebula the Fed's true first multi-purpose ship. And it would be a very nice ship, indeed.
For you canon-tards, yes it's supposed to be a cruiser (as if anyone were somehow in denial over that). Deal with it
For you "neglected" sci-guys whining about needing more science ships, as a fellow science player, this would be probably the best science ship for us to get, without it actually being a science ship; so what if it's not really a science ship, get over yourselves you divas.
For the handfull of you Kingon players whining about how you wanna keep your precious Universal BOFF slots to your BoP's, STFU back to Quo'Nos. It'd be the second Fed ship with a UniBOFF slot compared to your HOW MANY.
.... man, I normally don't ran like that, but holy buckets, did I need to get that off my chest.
(DStahl, since I know you watch this thread in particular like a hawk, I hope that I at least made you smile a bit with my candor, but also gave you quite a bit to mull over with my points of power.)
As well there ought to be a T3 Science version in the mix as well. The current ships in that range are the only ships in the game less appealing to me than the four nacelle T3 cruisers.
And it should turn as well as the other ships in its tier and of its type. Its been brought up that the Galaxy's turn rate is only workable with a cruiser, and I have to concur. It's more compact and not quite as massive as a Galaxy so no problem there really.
The excelsior is not balanced either. I don't see that as an issue where the C-Store is concerned. If this ship is not better than a retrofit Intrepid, then it shouldn't be put up for sale. It's simple economics. I can just get a retro intrepid if I want a science ship from the c-store. Or use an RSV if I don't want to even bother.
Yes. I think we both know that this the form your (perfectly warranted) anti-C-Store message has decided to take. Here's the problem:
Constructive is here.
...
...
...
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... what you're doing right now is all the way over here.
Instead of rooting for the ship to sink by punching more holes in the bottom of the hull, it's probably better to try and get the devs to see reason and fix the mistake they made with the Excelsior than to egg them toward making more mistakes with the Nebula, even if it is sarcasm at work.
You said earlier that people don't react well to sarcasm. That's apt. A lot of people also don't get sarcasm. Sometimes intentionally. Don't go giving people justification, even accidentally, that they don't need and probably shouldn't have. That's not something that's going to turn out well.
exactly the point. the price tag makes the question of it's "hard" balance irrellevant . . . it must have an inherent advantage over the 2nd class "free" ships to warrant the additional fee attached to it (in proportion to its extra cost).
all the ship's stats have been given to us for discussion, except the most important one . . . it's cost.
People do buy stuff for variety. I generally won't refuse to buy a new pair of pants that isn't objectively better than my current pants simply because I already have pants available to me. Sometimes I'll buy new pants just so I can wear new pants, or to replace my old pants with something different for a change.
"Better" is not the sole selling point of any one thing.
If the sole argument against a LTC universal slot is that it makes BoP's vulnerable ( A universal slot killing machine of unbalanced proportions) i'm not sure that matters. The excelsior got a LTC slot but less survivability, Those sort of balances can be made here. If they're going to give a universal slot, it should be one of value, and not a Token gesture. its either versatile or its not.
You assume the ExR is balanced. You also assume the Hegh'ta isn't. You also assume a Lt. Science/Engineering slot is worthless.
I think most people would debate all of those things.
People do buy stuff for variety. I generally won't refuse to buy a new pair of pants that isn't objectively better than my current pants simply because I already have pants available to me. Sometimes I'll buy new pants just so I can wear new pants, or to replace my old pants with something different for a change.
do you pay $18 for jeans worth $5?
Cryptic isn't basing the Neb's balance strength and eventual price tag on your shopping habits . . . there gonna base both those factors on OUR shopping habits . . . us customers as a whole.
that means perceived worh vs applied cost . . . game balance takes a back seat in regards to exclusively C-Store purchased ships.
The question isn't how is the Nebula balanced against other ships. It's how is it balanced against it's additonal cost . . . and they haven't yet provided the price tag it will sport.
You assume the ExR is balanced. You also assume the Hegh'ta isn't. You also assume a Lt. Science/Engineering slot is worthless.
I think most people would debate all of those things.
I don't think the excelsior is unbalanced you're right. It has far less survivability than the soverign.
And I do think that a ship with entirely open universal slots is a little much, but with how little the klingon side has to work with I"m not running to scream OP, I just don't think that figures into the equation here. I'm looking for ways that this ship could fit its true multirole purpose, and I don't expect the devs to make three dif ships as has been suggested. I also don't think an Lt C slot would be op given some balances sacrifices could be made.
I'm looking foward to some sort of compromise for someone not taking a science lean on this ship, even if its not a bigger universal slot. Just something that says, you can still do great DPS, or survive well, or use Sci abilites. This is the Jack of all trades starship of the federation, I just want the devs to take advantage of this opportunity to create a unique ship that has something for everyone.
It was a tough call whether to make this a Science Vessel or a Cruiser. The IP supports either. In the end we decided to make it a cruiser because it is so big and especially b/c it has so much in common with the Galaxy. So we decided to make it StarCruiser.
We could consider making it a Science Vessel. A Deep Space Science Vessel was the second choice. Doing so would swap the BOff and Mod slots. Also, its weapon slots would need to be reduced, and it would gain Subsystem Targeting. Finally it would have DeepSpace Science Vessel hull and Shield HP. So it would be something like:
Nebula
A DeepSpace Science Vessel variant (Its not a Retrofit. It utilizes the DeepSpace Science Vessel Skill).
Requires:
Rear Admiral
Weapons:
3 Fore
3 Aft
Boff seats (4 Boffs, 11 Powers):
1 Lt Tact
1 LC Eng
1 Cm Science
1 Lt Universal
Mods:
3 Eng
4 Sci
2 Tact
3 Device Slots
750 Crew
Unique Ability:
Tachyon Detection Grid: PBAoE buff that increases your, and allies w/in 10k, Starship Sensor Stat and Cloak Detection. Each buffed ally in turn will buff more allies within 10k of them - thus extending the grid.
Turn Rate = Galaxy
Any other stats not mentioned are the same as a DeepSpace Science Vessel.
My Opinion is it should be a science vessel. We already have the dreadnaught, exec., and the retrofit galaxy which are all cruisers. The Science/Escorts really only have one special ship which is the retrofits. I think the science crowd needs some love and honestly the unique ability sounds more science related to me. Just my 2 cents... which are worth just that.
and yet another FUNCTION that is only avaible in the C-Store?
since it is again a Rear Admiral Ship (like the Excelsior) it will not be avaible for Emblems either?
And this time arround probably will not even get a *free* lower tier variant?
Why not make the tachyon detection grid a new sci skill that every ship can use?
In the TNG Episode they had all kind's of Ships used for the grid so it is not like the Nebula Class would be the only one who should be able to do it, in fact every ship with a Deflectordish would be able to.
I don't think the excelsior is unbalanced you're right. It has far less survivability than the soverign.
What it loses in defence it more than makes up for in offence.
If you're going the pure defence route that means you're going to be stacking some defencive powers on shared cool down, meaning you're gaining less than a "full" individual power for each added. With a waltz into the tactical trees you don't have the same worries, and start gaining fuller benefits, as well as broadening your capabilities (and in Cryptic games DPS tend to take a front seat).
Now, add in some extra manoeuvrability in a system of diminishing returns where at lower levels every point is a godsend. You're more easily able to bring weapon arcs to bear, and alter shield facing (and in a Cruiser-type with what amounts to the second best shield numbers in the game).
And there's a special ability, which although non-combat is still something.
And I do think that a ship with entirely open universal slots if a little much, but with how little the klingon side has to work with I"m not running to scream OP, I just don't think that figures into the equation here.
A few balance passes ago I'd have agreed with you. The BoP's hull and shields have continually gotten lower and lower though, and these days it's just not what it once was. It's a series of major drawbacks with one major advantage (universal BOff slots) and one advantage that varies between decent and questionable based on play style (battle cloak, which tends to be death if you don't gear toward it heavily, but can be rather serviceable if you do apparently).
I'm looking for ways that this ship could fit its true multirole purpose, and I don't expect the devs to make three dif ships as has been suggested. I also don't think an Lt C slot would be op given some balances sacrifices could be made.
As I've said previously... if sacrifices are made, I'm fine with that. As it stands now though simply swapping the Lt Universal for an LtC universal really doesn't cut it.
Comments
Hmm, also I think what you need to keep in mind is that once does not equal a pattern. If you're just going by the ExR then that could very well be a mistake, an anomaly. Whether it's more than that or not will begin to be seen with the Nebula.
If you look past the Nebula at the other Refits and the GalX, the other ships in the C-Store, they seem to suggest that balance is desired, and was likely desired with the ExR, but the ultimate result failed to achieve that.
Now it's just a question of if they fix that mistake, or repeat it with the Nebula. That they're asking for opinions and ideas more than two days in advance of the ship's launch is, at least, a good sign...
Buy him a beer. That usually shuts my friends up. But then... most of my friends are drunks.
Thx dstahl .. this is exactly what i have hoped for in terms of the Nebula. To me it doesn't matter if this is a cruiser or a science ship, i will get the Nebula for my science va1 character then. I really hope the BO station layout stays like this. Ok i would'nt mind if you call it "Heavy Science Cruiser", connect it to the DSSV skill and swap the ENG Commander staion with the SCI LTcm.
The only thing i'm not sure of - is the unique ability able to compete against the the unique abilities of other special ships?!
Maybe there is connection between the need to "pacify" your friends and they´re being drunks.
This all good and nice. The only question that we NEED an answer to is can we get it IG as VA?
Thats the main problem we are having here No new ships avaliable threw IG mechanics
So I won't stay long.
IF the plan has room for both sci and cruiser variations, then there's no harm in making it that way.
I can't agree with this post enough....This ship is multi-role to the core, make the universal slot LTC, and for the love of all that is holy please don't give it a DSSV base, I really can't disagree enough with the big Science lean here. I'll deal with the little dissapointments for me so far ( Starcruiser base, Poor turn rate) for the sake of game balance and I know why those are the way they are, but make this ship the MULTI-ROLE it was meant to be, LTC universal slot! I will not buy this ship for anything less.
The Nebula would be the 'science' retrofit cruiser with the swapable pod.
You would also need a 'tactical' retrofit cruiser, may I suggest the Northampton class frigate/blockade shiip. My personal favorite when I used to play the FASA Star Trek.
Some thoughts.
1) The turn rate is awfully low for a ship that's smaller than the Galaxy. I would expect its main perk would be higher maneuverability due to that (while it would lose hull and crew). FOr a science ship, this is particularly bad, since too many science powers are 90° arc powers.
2) It would make sense to make it a Science Ship.
3) As a Science ship, the Universal Slot will probably rarely if ever used for Tactical Lt. With only 3 weapon slots per arc and no ability to carry cannons, its main focus can and will never be on firepower. The Bird of Prey works with tactical slots because it has 4 front arc weapons and can carry dual cannons, which at least gets it a powerful frontal attack.
A potential solution might be
- Drop the Science Vessels Target Subsystem skill.
- Add one front arc weapon slot _or_ add the ability to carry dual cannons. (the latter only works if you also improve the turning rate) or give it a 4/2 weapon layout at least.
4) Does the Tachyon Grid ability offer any advantages when people are not using cloak? Like the ability to just detect ships a a further distance (beyond the 20-30 km it currently is at). Some kind of combat buff?
5) Either way, since it has only one Universal BO slot instead of all slots being universal, losing an Ensign might be a little much. I would suggest adding one Tactical Console for a 4/3/3 layout, or adding a 4th device.
The most honest feedback I can give is ...
For 15 bucks, I'd buy the Nebula dstahl proposes.
I wouldn't pay a single dime for the DSSV version Gecko said they talked about.
Since this is a C-Store item ... there's the economic breakdown in the most honest and simple terms I can deliver. One purchase is worth the money. The other is not.
First make a base Nebula, without the mission pod attached:
Weapons:
3 Fore
3 Aft
Boff seats
1 Lt Tact
1 Cm Eng
1 LC Science
Mods:
2 Eng
2 Sci
2 Tact
3 Device Slots
750 Crew
Turn Rate = Galaxy
Any other stats not mentioned are the same as a Star Cruiser.
Energy config:
neutral, no boni/mali
Next make 3 different mission pods:
AWACS (Science)
Unique Ability:
Tachyon Detection Grid: PBAoE buff that increases your, and allies w/in 10k, Starship Sensor Stat and Cloak Detection. Each buffed ally in turn will buff more allies within 10k of them - thus extending the grid.
Adds
1 Commander Science BOFF station
Science ship shield boost
+2 Sci Mod
+1 Eng Mod
Science ship energy config
10% turning rate boost
ASSAULT (Tactical)
Unique Ability:
Torpedo Barage: In-build torpedospread 1 ability and photon torpedo luncher. Cool down 45 seconds
Adds:
1 Commander Tac station
30% turning rate boost
escort energy config
+1/+1 weapon slots
+2 Tac mod
+1 Eng Mod
SUPPORT (Engineer)
Unique Ability:
Field Repair Facility: Grants a 10% bonus to healing and repair abilities when used to friendly ships in a 10k radius. Cooldown 45 seconds
Adds:
1 Commander Enginer station
20% turning rate boost
cruiser energy config
+1/0 weapon
+1 Eng mod
+1 Sci mod
+1 Tac Mod
+10% hull
+1 Device slot
Swapping out missions pods can only be done at a starbase with a ship tailor npc.
Swapping a pod out costs 1000 credits and has a cooldown before the ship is usable again of 5 minutes.
LT cmd Universal slot= MUTLIROLE, everyones happy
GALAXY TURN RATE? If someone did want to go Science it would really suck trying to keep those 90 degree sci abilities within range! it a little smaller, just do a little better than galaxy at least please.
C'mon guys, this could be the cruiser for everyone, just change the universal slot to LTC and you're there.
Actually they're mostly happy, well behaved drunks (as far as anything which might require being pacified). They are, however, also thirsty drunks. You can't talk and slurp beer at the same time without risking a suds-based drowning incident, so the buying of beer is an excellent way to obtain some "quite time"...:D
Not really.
Mostly it's devolved into vocal cynicism toward the ship's future as far as balance and the C-Store goes. I don't really see anyone here trying to circumvent the arguments of another based on the people presenting it.
Again, the problem with this approach is that the ship gains FAR too much of the BoP's versatility and nowhere near enough of it's fragility. The BoP's turn rate and battle cloak alone don't cover that. Alternating shield facings doesn't help when you have no shields on any facing as backup, and with a 4/2 weapons setup you need to have that movement so you can keep enemies in the only arc where you have weapons, whereas on a 4/4 Cruiser setup, well, you really don't lose much effectiveness arc-to-arc. Also, dropping your shields while under fire when you only have 24,000 hull is often fatal.
The suggested Cruiser setup just isn't balanced. If it's included I'm going to have to require that Cryptic toss another weapon slot on the back end of my Hegh'ta and up it's hull and shields to Reconnaissance Science Vessel levels.
It can, however, go between Science and Engineering.
Nine is the max console limit for any ship in game as it stands now. A tenth seems like it's pushing things. Also, although a BoP loses only one Ensign slot for it's universal BOff slots as well, it also has the absolute lowest hull, shields and device slots available in the game, and except for the T5 Defiant Refit it also has the least crew.
Do you want to take a few more of the Hegh'ta's disadvantages? Because it cost a lot more than a single Ensign BOff slot to get what it has.
And the one purchase is worth your money because you know it's not balanced.
The excelsior is not balanced either. I don't see that as an issue where the C-Store is concerned. If this ship is not better than a retrofit Intrepid, then it shouldn't be put up for sale. It's simple economics. I can just get a retro intrepid if I want a science ship from the c-store. Or use an RSV if I don't want to even bother.
exactly the point. the price tag makes the question of it's "hard" balance irrellevant . . . it must have an inherent advantage (in proportion to its extra cost) over the 2nd class "free" ships to warrant the additional fee attached to it.
all the ship's stats have been given to us for discussion, except the most important one . . . it's cost.
Yeah happy Joy Joy is correct almost all the Starfleet ships are Cruisers. That make sense as the Feds seem to love big general purpose ships.
Two extra weapon slots (for a whopping 8 compared to a simple 6 as a sci ship)
Same Base Hull as a starcruiser (oh my gosh, are these things durable as heck)
Wicked Engineering Slots (natch, being a cruiser)
Decent Tac and Sci Slots (to be expected, being a T5 cruiser)
Lotsa Sci Cons for a cruiser
What's gonna pull it all together as the perfect representation of the multi-purpose cruiser we all know and love is that tasty, dare I say, sexy, Lt Universal slot. This is what brings it to the house, gentlemen.
Put a Science BOFF there, and you got, well, a Heavy Science Cruiser.
Put an Engineer BOFF there, and you have a RIDICULOUS repair and support ship.
Put a Tactical BOFF there, and hello nurse! You can have a gunboat or a beam cruiser.
As a DSSV variant, the Nebula would really lose out. It'd have less weapons, less hull, and its maneuverability would still be the same as the cruiser variant (garbage). Sure, it'd get subsystem targeting (my personal favorite feature of Science ships), but so what. As a starcruiser variant, it's longevity and offensive power would more than make up for that. And with the Universal BOFF slot, as I pointed out, would make the Nebula the Fed's true first multi-purpose ship. And it would be a very nice ship, indeed.
For you canon-tards, yes it's supposed to be a cruiser (as if anyone were somehow in denial over that). Deal with it
For you "neglected" sci-guys whining about needing more science ships, as a fellow science player, this would be probably the best science ship for us to get, without it actually being a science ship; so what if it's not really a science ship, get over yourselves you divas.
For the handfull of you Kingon players whining about how you wanna keep your precious Universal BOFF slots to your BoP's, STFU back to Quo'Nos. It'd be the second Fed ship with a UniBOFF slot compared to your HOW MANY.
.... man, I normally don't ran like that, but holy buckets, did I need to get that off my chest.
(DStahl, since I know you watch this thread in particular like a hawk, I hope that I at least made you smile a bit with my candor, but also gave you quite a bit to mull over with my points of power.)
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=177816
As well there ought to be a T3 Science version in the mix as well. The current ships in that range are the only ships in the game less appealing to me than the four nacelle T3 cruisers.
And it should turn as well as the other ships in its tier and of its type. Its been brought up that the Galaxy's turn rate is only workable with a cruiser, and I have to concur. It's more compact and not quite as massive as a Galaxy so no problem there really.
You think the *****ing about the Excelsior is annoying, wait for a cruiser with a Ltc+Lt tactical layout. ;p
Yes. I think we both know that this the form your (perfectly warranted) anti-C-Store message has decided to take. Here's the problem:
Constructive is here.
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...
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... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... what you're doing right now is all the way over here.
Instead of rooting for the ship to sink by punching more holes in the bottom of the hull, it's probably better to try and get the devs to see reason and fix the mistake they made with the Excelsior than to egg them toward making more mistakes with the Nebula, even if it is sarcasm at work.
You said earlier that people don't react well to sarcasm. That's apt. A lot of people also don't get sarcasm. Sometimes intentionally. Don't go giving people justification, even accidentally, that they don't need and probably shouldn't have. That's not something that's going to turn out well.
People do buy stuff for variety. I generally won't refuse to buy a new pair of pants that isn't objectively better than my current pants simply because I already have pants available to me. Sometimes I'll buy new pants just so I can wear new pants, or to replace my old pants with something different for a change.
"Better" is not the sole selling point of any one thing.
You assume the ExR is balanced. You also assume the Hegh'ta isn't. You also assume a Lt. Science/Engineering slot is worthless.
I think most people would debate all of those things.
do you pay $18 for jeans worth $5?
Cryptic isn't basing the Neb's balance strength and eventual price tag on your shopping habits . . . there gonna base both those factors on OUR shopping habits . . . us customers as a whole.
that means perceived worh vs applied cost . . . game balance takes a back seat in regards to exclusively C-Store purchased ships.
The question isn't how is the Nebula balanced against other ships. It's how is it balanced against it's additonal cost . . . and they haven't yet provided the price tag it will sport.
I don't think the excelsior is unbalanced you're right. It has far less survivability than the soverign.
And I do think that a ship with entirely open universal slots is a little much, but with how little the klingon side has to work with I"m not running to scream OP, I just don't think that figures into the equation here. I'm looking for ways that this ship could fit its true multirole purpose, and I don't expect the devs to make three dif ships as has been suggested. I also don't think an Lt C slot would be op given some balances sacrifices could be made.
I'm looking foward to some sort of compromise for someone not taking a science lean on this ship, even if its not a bigger universal slot. Just something that says, you can still do great DPS, or survive well, or use Sci abilites. This is the Jack of all trades starship of the federation, I just want the devs to take advantage of this opportunity to create a unique ship that has something for everyone.
People are shelling out $3-$25 for stuff worth nothing in the C-Store already... welcome to Star Trek fans.
Destroying game balance, eventually, will alienate even them. You can't sell an $18 product to a non-existent install base.
My Opinion is it should be a science vessel. We already have the dreadnaught, exec., and the retrofit galaxy which are all cruisers. The Science/Escorts really only have one special ship which is the retrofits. I think the science crowd needs some love and honestly the unique ability sounds more science related to me. Just my 2 cents... which are worth just that.
No one is forcing you to buy it. Those of us who do will enjoy it.
so it is only a ship skin and will be in the 160-240 c-point range?
...1200 C-Points *ka-ching*
and yet another FUNCTION that is only avaible in the C-Store?
since it is again a Rear Admiral Ship (like the Excelsior) it will not be avaible for Emblems either?
And this time arround probably will not even get a *free* lower tier variant?
Why not make the tachyon detection grid a new sci skill that every ship can use?
In the TNG Episode they had all kind's of Ships used for the grid so it is not like the Nebula Class would be the only one who should be able to do it, in fact every ship with a Deflectordish would be able to.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tachyon_detection_grid
What it loses in defence it more than makes up for in offence.
If you're going the pure defence route that means you're going to be stacking some defencive powers on shared cool down, meaning you're gaining less than a "full" individual power for each added. With a waltz into the tactical trees you don't have the same worries, and start gaining fuller benefits, as well as broadening your capabilities (and in Cryptic games DPS tend to take a front seat).
Now, add in some extra manoeuvrability in a system of diminishing returns where at lower levels every point is a godsend. You're more easily able to bring weapon arcs to bear, and alter shield facing (and in a Cruiser-type with what amounts to the second best shield numbers in the game).
And there's a special ability, which although non-combat is still something.
A few balance passes ago I'd have agreed with you. The BoP's hull and shields have continually gotten lower and lower though, and these days it's just not what it once was. It's a series of major drawbacks with one major advantage (universal BOff slots) and one advantage that varies between decent and questionable based on play style (battle cloak, which tends to be death if you don't gear toward it heavily, but can be rather serviceable if you do apparently).
As I've said previously... if sacrifices are made, I'm fine with that. As it stands now though simply swapping the Lt Universal for an LtC universal really doesn't cut it.