1. It wont make the game anymore of a challenge or more fun.
2. It wont make bad players quit.
3. It will more than likely make more players hang back at the entrance and not take part as much in Fleet actions and auto join group quest. Like they did in AV in WoW. They just sat ther and free loaded
4. It's a time sink. It's nothing more than a waste of time and resources.
5. Sometimes when you plot a coarse somewhere a enemy contact instance pulls you in and before you get out the enemy fleet kills you. Why take a penalty for that.
I would like to know the highest ranking character everyone has who voted yes.
My guess is they are all Admirals who want a club that very few can enter.
If it is skill points then they will never progress to get new missions.
Assume much? You DO realise that the question regarding a death penalty and its effects on the players progression has been up for discussion since beta.
People of ALL level ranges agree that some of the most fundamental MMO concepts are missing from STO and that the game is burnt through too quickly. And why is this so? Because the game doesn't offer much to slow the player progression down enough for the game to last as long as it should in comparison to its competitors.
Sure, it may seem like a good idea to not have a DP, to reward players with vast amounts of XP/SP and nice shinies regardless of the difficulty level. But in the end it only serves to reduce the overall interest duration for the player.
1. It wont make the game anymore of a challenge or more fun.
2. It wont make bad players quit.
3. It will more than likely make more players hang back at the entrance and not take part as much in Fleet actions and auto join group quest. Like they did in AV in WoW. They just sat ther and free loaded
4. It's a time sink. It's nothing more than a waste of time and resources.
5. Sometimes when you plot a coarse somewhere a enemy contact instance pulls you in and before you get out the enemy fleet kills you. Why take a penalty for that.
1) Whilst it doesn't directly dictate the challenge of an encounter, it DOES reinforce the need to successfully complete the encounter in a tactical way using skills in order to prevent the player from dieing. And lets face it, at the moment there is no reason NOT to die. In other words, a death penalty reinforces whatever challenge rules the devs design into an encounter. However, if player death has very little meaning or consequence, then that just means that any challenge is nullified. This is because challenge is defined by succeeding in an activity given certain rules and under certain conditions. No rules and no conditions = very little challenge.
2) DP has nothing to do with making bad players quit. A balanced encounter difficulty vs death penalty system isn't designed to do that anyhow. If anything, having more challenge with an appropriate consequence system may very well keep players subscribed because they WANT to succeed in the encounters and will happily join in them in order to try to do so. Thus prolonging the interest level of the game.
3) "Free loading" in places like the Deep Space Encounters can be combatted VERY easily. More on this later.
4) Yes, its basically a time sink, its an inconvenience to the player that doesn't succeed in completing an encounter with the necessary skill and in the necessary way. In other words, it combats the use of "zerging" which is even now evident in the game (Crystaline Entity)
5) THAT is a different issue entirely. A death penalty is a consequence of that poorly thought out scenario. Therefore, any death penalty can be negated for such a scenario if the devs deal with the main issue i.e. the players being targetted the moment they enter the DSE.
And that can done by taking inspiration from other MMOs: the use of "Not Targettable" countdown timers.
Such a timer could give the player enough time to decide whether or not to join in the fight or warp out. Also they could apply conditions for how people gain "markups" for missions (e.g. a maximum range or that they have to "tag" the target).
I'm not entirely convinced that the majority of anti-DP campaigners have migrated purely from the console market to STO. I just think many enjoy the lack of consequence to ones actions because it facilitates the need to spend the minimum time possible in order to make a lot of progress. And therefore, anything that is detrimental to that is met with negativity.
Players often enjoy taking the "path of least resistance" and don't like it when that path is made harder, no matter the amount and no matter its benefits to the long-term health of the activity in question.
I'm not a console gamer I am a burnt out pvp karma ... death penalty gamer that has been playing games since they were introduced.
When I was 20 and had lesss reponsibility and my gums were not receding and I was not wearing bifocals and could sit for 20 hours straight I didn't mind the death penalty.
Now not so much.. I am a battle weary gamer just wanting to have fun and not worrry about dropping gear when I die .. and running everytime I see a red dot on my radar just in case he beats me when I am out farming mobs for cash..to replace my armour I dropped last night in a dungeon when red chaotic characters mowed me and my guild over while we were trying to level on the monsters in the dungeons .. That's who I am.. I dont know about anyone else, but I have never played a single console game in my life.. imagine that.
I have played single player pc games early on before mmorpgs were introduced to the genre. When the first MMO was launched I bought it and never touched another single player game again. /shrug
Actually we are getting the results we wanted, Cryptic has heard us, and knows we are right, thats why they are working on a DP system right now.
Isn't that the point? One side made some noise and they acted now the other side is trying to make noise and the previous side is saying "shut up". Convenient, isn't it.
That's what has the pro-DP folks worried. A handful made noise and Cryptic acted. Now they see a tide rising in even greater numbers and don't want Cryptic to act on their deafening noise.
I'm not a console gamer I am a burnt out pvp karma ... death penalty gamer that has been playing games since they were introduced.
When I was 20 and had lesss reponsibility and my gums were not receding and I was not wearing bifocals and could sit for 20 hours straight I didn't mind the death penalty.
Now not so much.. I am a battle weary gamer just wanting to have fun and not worrry about dropping gear when I die .. and running everytime I see a red dot on my radar just in case he beats me when I am out farming mobs for cash..to replace my armour I dropped last night in a dungeon when red chaotic characters mowed me and my guild over while we were trying to level on the monsters in the dungeons .. That's who I am.. I dont know about anyone else, but I have never played a single console game in my life.. imagine that.
I have played single player pc games early on before mmorpgs were introduced to the genre. When the first MMO was launched I bought it and never touched another single player game again. /shrug
Then you reinforce my thoughts on the matter. Thank you
My point is that people in MMO discussions have a tendency to incorrectly "pigeon hole" players. Calling them "console lovers", "carebears", "kiddie wow players" or some other ridiculous nonsense, when in actual fact that is far from the truth.
Now, from what I've seen in these forums, not that many are big advocates of the "harsh" death penalties such as dropping / perma-losing items or XP / SP like the ones found in Eve Online. In fact, given that Cryptic have already begun to "tweak" the crew system that is already in the game, to me sounds like a pretty good indicator that they intend to go with their original plan for a "durability" type system which can be replenished.
After all, its already in the game, it just needs to be fully enabled once it is correctly balanced. And balancing starts with ensuring that whatever "crew" is lost is done so in a fair manner.
definately need some sort of death penalty, anything really, light or harsh, I don't care
we have way too many zerglings as it is..
once while I was broadsiding a terran federation Sol class I saw someone in a Galaxy class full impulse on by me and did Ramming Speed on it.. I watched as the enemy npc exploded and then looked at the galaxy class spinning and blowing up as well.. seriously... a perfectly fine ship, 1000 crewmen, all gone because the captain was too lazy to shoot and was going to respawn 2 seconds later as if nothing happened?
not to mention I'd loooove to see all those constantly dieing zerglings getting killed by Crystalline Entity shards put to a stop for once
Isn't that the point? One side made some noise and they acted now the other side is trying to make noise and the previous side is saying "shut up". Convenient, isn't it.
That's what has the pro-DP folks worried. A handful made noise and Cryptic acted. Now they see a tide rising in even greater numbers and don't want Cryptic to act on their deafening noise.
I never told you guys to shut up? And to be honest, I havent seen anyone else do it.
We are expressing our thoughts on the subject, does that threaten you?
CRYPTIC is not going to change its mind because of a bunch of ppl in pointless polls saying NO to a game change when the details have not even been released.
ALL the polls have proven is that when you ask a bunch of ppl to vote yes or no on summat they have no details or factual info about some will vote YES and some will vote NO.
At least if those who vote yes get their way they will see what the DP is going to be and can then make a educated decision and maybe change their vote.
However if those who vote NO get their way we may never see wtf they voted no on lol.
How about a MAYBE VOTE so we can get some details first ffs.:D:D
Fun is what the individual says it is not what someone else dictates.
Correct, and you'll find that a challenging but fair activity is often preferred to one that isn't. And challenge is reinforced by rules that impose a penalty on the player if they DON'T adhere to them.
Would you consider football as challenging as it is now, if all the rules where taken away or there was no reason to adhere to them?
This would be a game killer for me as I play solo and am married with a family a job and have bills to pay. If I had to play nonstop for days to get up the energy needed to replace a lost ship + equipment or to train up a new character I would have to quit STO because I just can't compete with the 13 year old babies out there who either steal or whine to daddy until he coughs up his credit card and buys "junior" 100 million energy and/or a pre-leveled character off a game gold site and can afford to buy all the best equipment illegal game currency can buy.
I switched from Eve to STO in the hopes of finding more mature and responsible players instead I am bombarded nonstop by spam mail and in local chat to buy illegal game currency. It's all about cheating, laziness and greed....just like Eve.
That is the reason I left Eve after 6 years and that will be the reason I leave STO if they continue to follow in eve's footsteps.
CRYPTIC is not going to change its mind because of a bunch of ppl in pointless polls saying NO to a game change when the details have not even been released.
Why not? Forum posts seem to have influenced them so far.
And you seem awful interested in shutting down the NOs. If no one is going to listen to them why bother trying to shut them up?
Correct, and you'll find that a challenging encounter is often preferred to one that isn't. And challenge is reinforced by rules that impose a penalty on the player if they DON'T adhere to them.
You can not agree and the immediately contradict your agreement in the same sentence. You know what is fun for you. Speaking beyond that is at best speculation and at worst your own projecting.
CRYPTIC is not going to change its mind because of a bunch of ppl in pointless polls saying NO to a game change when the details have not even been released.
ALL the polls have proven is that when you ask a bunch of ppl to vote yes or no on summat they have no details or factual info about some will vote YES and some will vote NO.
At least if those who vote yes get their way they will see what the DP is going to be and can then make a educated decision and maybe change their vote.
However if those who vote NO get their way we may never see wtf they voted no on lol.
How about a MAYBE VOTE so we can get some details first ffs.:D:D
You can not agree and the immediately contradict your agreement in the same sentence. You know what is fun for you. Speaking beyond that is at best speculation and at worst your own projecting.
Really? How am I contradicting myself? Just because YOU say so? Come on now Goodwind. I'm not so easily goaded lol.
Yes, I know what I consider fun.
However, ask yourself:
Why do people repeatedly play games that are not that easy to beat?
Why do people still enjoy games that impose a certain level of restriction on how the player can win, and rules on the individual taking part, and thus reduce the overall possibility of success?
Why is it that even though people get frustrated with a game, they will often return to it?
Answer me those questions, and you'll be closer to understanding the truth behind the definition of "fun"
1) Whilst it doesn't directly dictate the challenge of an encounter, it DOES reinforce the need to successfully complete the encounter in a tactical way using skills in order to prevent the player from dieing. And lets face it, at the moment there is no reason NOT to die. In other words, a death penalty reinforces whatever challenge rules the devs design into an encounter. However, if player death has very little meaning or consequence, then that just means that any challenge is nullified. This is because challenge is defined by succeeding in an activity given certain rules and under certain conditions. No rules and no conditions = very little challenge.
2) DP has nothing to do with making bad players quit. A balanced encounter difficulty vs death penalty system isn't designed to do that anyhow. If anything, having more challenge with an appropriate consequence system may very well keep players subscribed because they WANT to succeed in the encounters and will happily join in them in order to try to do so. Thus prolonging the interest level of the game.
3) "Free loading" in places like the Deep Space Encounters can be combatted VERY easily. More on this later.
4) Yes, its basically a time sink, its an inconvenience to the player that doesn't succeed in completing an encounter with the necessary skill and in the necessary way. In other words, it combats the use of "zerging" which is even now evident in the game (Crystaline Entity)
5) THAT is a different issue entirely. A death penalty is a consequence of that poorly thought out scenario. Therefore, any death penalty can be negated for such a scenario if the devs deal with the main issue i.e. the players being targetted the moment they enter the DSE.
And that can done by taking inspiration from other MMOs: the use of "Not Targettable" countdown timers.
Such a timer could give the player enough time to decide whether or not to join in the fight or warp out. Also they could apply conditions for how people gain "markups" for missions (e.g. a maximum range or that they have to "tag" the target).
You didn't counter any of my points. You agreed with me but still think there should be a there a Death penalty. It will just be more stuff for them to fix.
Comments
1. It wont make the game anymore of a challenge or more fun.
2. It wont make bad players quit.
3. It will more than likely make more players hang back at the entrance and not take part as much in Fleet actions and auto join group quest. Like they did in AV in WoW. They just sat ther and free loaded
4. It's a time sink. It's nothing more than a waste of time and resources.
5. Sometimes when you plot a coarse somewhere a enemy contact instance pulls you in and before you get out the enemy fleet kills you. Why take a penalty for that.
Assume much? You DO realise that the question regarding a death penalty and its effects on the players progression has been up for discussion since beta.
People of ALL level ranges agree that some of the most fundamental MMO concepts are missing from STO and that the game is burnt through too quickly. And why is this so? Because the game doesn't offer much to slow the player progression down enough for the game to last as long as it should in comparison to its competitors.
Sure, it may seem like a good idea to not have a DP, to reward players with vast amounts of XP/SP and nice shinies regardless of the difficulty level. But in the end it only serves to reduce the overall interest duration for the player.
1) Whilst it doesn't directly dictate the challenge of an encounter, it DOES reinforce the need to successfully complete the encounter in a tactical way using skills in order to prevent the player from dieing. And lets face it, at the moment there is no reason NOT to die. In other words, a death penalty reinforces whatever challenge rules the devs design into an encounter. However, if player death has very little meaning or consequence, then that just means that any challenge is nullified. This is because challenge is defined by succeeding in an activity given certain rules and under certain conditions. No rules and no conditions = very little challenge.
2) DP has nothing to do with making bad players quit. A balanced encounter difficulty vs death penalty system isn't designed to do that anyhow. If anything, having more challenge with an appropriate consequence system may very well keep players subscribed because they WANT to succeed in the encounters and will happily join in them in order to try to do so. Thus prolonging the interest level of the game.
3) "Free loading" in places like the Deep Space Encounters can be combatted VERY easily. More on this later.
4) Yes, its basically a time sink, its an inconvenience to the player that doesn't succeed in completing an encounter with the necessary skill and in the necessary way. In other words, it combats the use of "zerging" which is even now evident in the game (Crystaline Entity)
5) THAT is a different issue entirely. A death penalty is a consequence of that poorly thought out scenario. Therefore, any death penalty can be negated for such a scenario if the devs deal with the main issue i.e. the players being targetted the moment they enter the DSE.
And that can done by taking inspiration from other MMOs: the use of "Not Targettable" countdown timers.
Such a timer could give the player enough time to decide whether or not to join in the fight or warp out. Also they could apply conditions for how people gain "markups" for missions (e.g. a maximum range or that they have to "tag" the target).
Not knowing what one would be didn't stop all the posts clamoring for a DP. Why change the rules now? Are the results not coming out the way you want?
> <
Actually we are getting the results we wanted, Cryptic has heard us, and knows we are right, thats why they are working on a DP system right now.
I'm not a console gamer I am a burnt out pvp karma ... death penalty gamer that has been playing games since they were introduced.
When I was 20 and had lesss reponsibility and my gums were not receding and I was not wearing bifocals and could sit for 20 hours straight I didn't mind the death penalty.
Now not so much.. I am a battle weary gamer just wanting to have fun and not worrry about dropping gear when I die .. and running everytime I see a red dot on my radar just in case he beats me when I am out farming mobs for cash..to replace my armour I dropped last night in a dungeon when red chaotic characters mowed me and my guild over while we were trying to level on the monsters in the dungeons .. That's who I am.. I dont know about anyone else, but I have never played a single console game in my life.. imagine that.
I have played single player pc games early on before mmorpgs were introduced to the genre. When the first MMO was launched I bought it and never touched another single player game again. /shrug
Reward with no risk....silliness.
Isn't that the point? One side made some noise and they acted now the other side is trying to make noise and the previous side is saying "shut up". Convenient, isn't it.
That's what has the pro-DP folks worried. A handful made noise and Cryptic acted. Now they see a tide rising in even greater numbers and don't want Cryptic to act on their deafening noise.
Then you reinforce my thoughts on the matter. Thank you
My point is that people in MMO discussions have a tendency to incorrectly "pigeon hole" players. Calling them "console lovers", "carebears", "kiddie wow players" or some other ridiculous nonsense, when in actual fact that is far from the truth.
Now, from what I've seen in these forums, not that many are big advocates of the "harsh" death penalties such as dropping / perma-losing items or XP / SP like the ones found in Eve Online. In fact, given that Cryptic have already begun to "tweak" the crew system that is already in the game, to me sounds like a pretty good indicator that they intend to go with their original plan for a "durability" type system which can be replenished.
After all, its already in the game, it just needs to be fully enabled once it is correctly balanced. And balancing starts with ensuring that whatever "crew" is lost is done so in a fair manner.
no to double pene...
definately need some sort of death penalty, anything really, light or harsh, I don't care
we have way too many zerglings as it is..
once while I was broadsiding a terran federation Sol class I saw someone in a Galaxy class full impulse on by me and did Ramming Speed on it.. I watched as the enemy npc exploded and then looked at the galaxy class spinning and blowing up as well.. seriously... a perfectly fine ship, 1000 crewmen, all gone because the captain was too lazy to shoot and was going to respawn 2 seconds later as if nothing happened?
not to mention I'd loooove to see all those constantly dieing zerglings getting killed by Crystalline Entity shards put to a stop for once
I'd prefer a WoW-like death penalty
Fun comes with overcoming a challenge. Zerging an encounter isn't challenging. That's just boring and has little effect on the possibile outcome.
I never told you guys to shut up? And to be honest, I havent seen anyone else do it.
We are expressing our thoughts on the subject, does that threaten you?
Fun is what the individual says it is not what someone else dictates.
You should pay attention to what you quote then.
ALL the polls have proven is that when you ask a bunch of ppl to vote yes or no on summat they have no details or factual info about some will vote YES and some will vote NO.
At least if those who vote yes get their way they will see what the DP is going to be and can then make a educated decision and maybe change their vote.
However if those who vote NO get their way we may never see wtf they voted no on lol.
How about a MAYBE VOTE so we can get some details first ffs.:D:D
Correct, and you'll find that a challenging but fair activity is often preferred to one that isn't. And challenge is reinforced by rules that impose a penalty on the player if they DON'T adhere to them.
Would you consider football as challenging as it is now, if all the rules where taken away or there was no reason to adhere to them?
This would be a game killer for me as I play solo and am married with a family a job and have bills to pay. If I had to play nonstop for days to get up the energy needed to replace a lost ship + equipment or to train up a new character I would have to quit STO because I just can't compete with the 13 year old babies out there who either steal or whine to daddy until he coughs up his credit card and buys "junior" 100 million energy and/or a pre-leveled character off a game gold site and can afford to buy all the best equipment illegal game currency can buy.
I switched from Eve to STO in the hopes of finding more mature and responsible players instead I am bombarded nonstop by spam mail and in local chat to buy illegal game currency. It's all about cheating, laziness and greed....just like Eve.
That is the reason I left Eve after 6 years and that will be the reason I leave STO if they continue to follow in eve's footsteps.
Why not? Forum posts seem to have influenced them so far.
And you seem awful interested in shutting down the NOs. If no one is going to listen to them why bother trying to shut them up?
A little advise about trolls...if you feed them they will stick around.
Lol. dont worry, I've been watching his responses to your posts in other threads.
I know what he's up to.
You can not agree and the immediately contradict your agreement in the same sentence. You know what is fun for you. Speaking beyond that is at best speculation and at worst your own projecting.
ALL the polls have proven is that when you ask a bunch of ppl to vote yes or no on summat they have no details or factual info about some will vote YES and some will vote NO.
At least if those who vote yes get their way they will see what the DP is going to be and can then make a educated decision and maybe change their vote.
However if those who vote NO get their way we may never see wtf they voted no on lol.
How about a MAYBE VOTE so we can get some details first ffs.:D:D
Really? How am I contradicting myself? Just because YOU say so? Come on now Goodwind. I'm not so easily goaded lol.
Yes, I know what I consider fun.
However, ask yourself:
- Why do people repeatedly play games that are not that easy to beat?
- Why do people still enjoy games that impose a certain level of restriction on how the player can win, and rules on the individual taking part, and thus reduce the overall possibility of success?
- Why is it that even though people get frustrated with a game, they will often return to it?
Answer me those questions, and you'll be closer to understanding the truth behind the definition of "fun"You didn't counter any of my points. You agreed with me but still think there should be a there a Death penalty. It will just be more stuff for them to fix.