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An Admiral Speaks: No Endgame Content.... At All (Spoiler Alert)

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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I bought a week's worth of groceries, then ate them in a day.

    Now I'm hungry, and disappointed with the store as it is their fault.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I'll be honest, and I don't mean this to be an insult, but if I had the free time to make it through STO in a few days, I'd be more concerned about a lack of content in my life, than a lack of content in STO.

    By any standards, getting to admiral level in a few days is absolutely hammering it through at break-neck speed, and not a little foolhardy for that, since it was no secret to anyone that STO is, like all MMOs, a constant work in progress, perhaps more so than many. So I do think the OP only really has themself to blame with regard to feeling that there is nothing to do. But even if a character is at level 50 or whatever, there is still the challenge of doing it with other characters and ships, using other skills etc, although I daresay the OP would be inclined to go through that at Mach 10 too.

    Sometimes it's about the journey and not about the destination, and I put forward the proposition that if someone is inclined to level in five days, really, how long would any end-game content be likely to last them? Otr to put it another way, if I read War and Peace in a day, does that make it a bad book?

    Al
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I was in the Head Start, and I'm still trying to make it to LtCommander!
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Chock wrote:
    I'll be honest, and I don't mean this to be an insult, but if I had the free time to make it through STO in a few days, I'd be more concerned about a lack of content in my life, than a lack of content in STO.

    By any standards, getting to admiral level in a few days is absolutely hammering it through at break-neck speed, and not a little foolhardy for that, since it was no secret to anyone that STO is, like all MMOs, a constant work in progress, perhaps more so than many. So I do think the OP only really has themself to blame with regard to feeling that there is nothing to do. But even if a character is at level 50 or whatever, there is still the challenge of doing it with other characters and ships, using other skills etc, although I daresay the OP would be inclined to go through that at Mach 10 too.

    Sometimes it's about the journey and not about the destination, and I put forward the proposition that if someone is inclined to level in five days, really, how long would any end-game content be likely to last them? Otr to put it another way, if I read War and Peace in a day, does that make it a bad book?

    Al


    sorry man but i totaly disagree. i think it is insulting to the playerbase to actualy make it so easy to get to admiral. you can just grind your way to admiral. no big quests involved. hell its not even a big achievement. i would have loved to see a dozen long and hard missions that you must complete with a full group of 5 to actualy be alowed captain. but no - after the tutorial the quality of the game rises for a litle before totaly going underground
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I didn't read through the whole thread, but maybe its time to create a new character or go Klingon Faction for a while.

    There is a butt load of "parallel" content in this game you seem to have no interest in (which is your problem, not Cryptic's).

    I don't understand the fascination with rushing to end-game without enjoying ALL of the content that exists on the way, but I'm sure they are working on it. It sucks for some folks, but not many MMOs have much in end-game content when they launch.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I, personally, don't like to rush MMOs, but I don't like the idea that there is currently NO endgame. i guess if they had to cut corners then this was the best way to do it. :(
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    The problem with your post is the fact that you are comparing STO to a game (WoW) which has been around for nearly 6 years. If you compare applies to apples (i.e. Vanilla WoW with no patches), you didn't even have a PvP reward system in WoW. 3 instances of *relatively* high level content, and no raids. If you're comparing the "takes a long time to get through them" for WoW, there is no claim for this until you reach level 60.

    I already said in this post that WOW 2 end game raid at release - MC and Onyxia.
    Scholo, Strats, BRS were all high level content, and BRS is really 2 instances LBRS and UBRS.
    World PvP was very active - TM vs SS wa a lot of fun.

    i.e. WoW had a lot more content and end game and every thing else then STO at release.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    ... and you know what's also kind of funny? There won't be any real "endgame progression" in STOL, because with no death penalty of any kind, people will not be able to fail. Any content or endgame instance that comes out will be oneshotted by any and all groups that attempt it, because you quite simply cannot fail. No real sense of achievement, and the replayability of this new content will be next to nothing, as everybody will have everything they need from that content within a week.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Another lesson is don't underestimate your player base and put out enough content to last only a week.
    It has nothing to do with "underestimate" - it's not as if you accomplished something special.

    It's nice that you suspended your life for a week to reach maxlevel in some internet-spaceship MMO (well, if you had a life before at least).

    Its also nice that you let us know about the lack of endgame content. Now feel free to suspend your subscription until the added some endgame stuff, and don't let the door hit you when you leave.

    Personally, I will start thinking about endgame or the lack of it in about 2-3 months, when I finally reach top-level. ANd if there is nothing, I will just leave and play some other game.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Blubaa wrote:
    It has nothing to do with "underestimate" - it's not as if you accomplished something special.

    It's nice that you suspended your life for a week to reach maxlevel in some internet-spaceship MMO (well, if you had a life before at least).

    Its also nice that you let us know about the lack of endgame content. Now feel free to suspend your subscription until the added some endgame stuff, and don't let the door hit you when you leave.

    Personally, I will start thinking about endgame or the lack of it in about 2-3 months, when I finally reach top-level.

    And by then just about everyone else will be thinking the same thing... and *POW*, the content will likely exist by then. I think thats the idea :P

    They designed the game to appeal to 90% of their audience rather than to the 10% that powerlevel (and believe me, there isn't a remotely easy way to appeal to both when you have to develop an MMO in a realistic time frame). I can't honestly knock cryptic for playing the numbers.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    skylr616 wrote: »
    I didn't read through the whole thread, but maybe its time to create a new character or go Klingon Faction for a while.

    There is a butt load of "parallel" content in this game you seem to have no interest in (which is your problem, not Cryptic's).

    I don't understand the fascination with rushing to end-game without enjoying ALL of the content that exists on the way, but I'm sure they are working on it. It sucks for some folks, but not many MMOs have much in end-game content when they launch.

    the klingon content is in a even more sad state than feds. klingon fraction was released completely unfinished to make arena matches possible i guess.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Nelzie wrote: »
    Why?

    Because there is absolutely more to life than sitting at a computer all weekend long to see how quickly one can level a toon. It's hardly an accomplishment to be proud of, in fact it smacks of an acute self-centered way of living.

    I cannot even fathom tossing away that much of my time and energy on something that has as little (in the grand scheme of things) meaning as self-entertainment when there are important, lasting things to work on. Like repairs/remodeling/cleaning the house, planning a Superbowl Party, reading to my daughter, doing our tax returns, frolicking with my wife, visiting friends, building furniture and even chatting online with friends I have developed all over the world, thanks to the Internet.

    It takes some really weird priorities to plan out an entire weekend of sitting in front of a PC just to see if one could max out a toon on an MMO as fast as possible and then spend time complaining about the already well known facts about that MMO.

    But hey, my priorities aren't your priorities, you go ahead and keep it real.

    I'm sure there's toms of people out there who would find the way you spend your free time just as frivolous as the guy that sat in front of STO all weekend. But hey, their priorities aren't yours, or his, either.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I just hit Lt.Cmdr, hehe. And I was in at the headstart. :D
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    zerosoul wrote: »
    the klingon content is in a even more sad state than feds. klingon fraction was released completely unfinished to make arena matches possible i guess.

    I think thats the whole point... we criticise Cryptic for not releasing unfinished end-game content, then we turn around and complain about them releasing unfinished Klingon content. They just can't win.

    I am much happier with the product being out now and playing it AS they finish the content off... if you really want to play a filled-out and polished product then return to the game in a year (at least this way, YOU GET THE CHOICE).
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Guess you missed the part about being a sheep. The point is there is NO endgame at ALL. So even if I took, say, a month to level.. then what? Wait? Endgame content is a hard lesson many devs have learned and here we go again...
    ok then... join my epic mission to get the devs to allow me to play as a undine

    you will join the fleet ar mars and launch a series of attacks on earth.

    Reward

    500 skill points
    300 bridge officer points
    1 tribble

    meeet the fleet in the sol system
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Kommodor wrote: »
    Most MMO's have vast worlds to explore, why would anyone delvelop a game were you are suppose to rush through the first 98% of their work just to complain about the last 2%?

    Ok, to completely reverse that, why would any developer spend 98% of their time developing content that 98% of the population will eventually (be it in hours or months) out level, as opposed to developing max level content that the player will be able to continue to make use of for the life of the game? (Well until an expansion raises the cap at least, but don't even get me started on how much content raising level caps wastes)

    If the game was designed oposite, 2% around leveling, 98% around max level, then guess what... the majority of the population will have 98% of the content available to them for the majority of the time they spend playing. (Because even the extreme casuals whom take two months to reach cap will be spending far more than 2 months at cap) Now obviously 98% cap 2% reaching cap is too extreme the other way, but you get my point. And it's just as much too extreme the direction it is now as it would be if it were 98% post cap.

    If your cap is R-Admiral (be it 45 or 50) for a year, and you plan extremely conservative and say most people will take 2 months to reach cap, then you're looking at over 80% of the players time being spent at cap. So now logically shouldn't close to 80% of the games content be content that's designed to be used at level cap?

    To everyone who said we should have known, the expectation was that Borg Space was going in with release. After all not only is Borg Space already on the map, but the end of beta event involved the borg, showing that they were basically ready to go in already. Why should we have expected them to not be in game when we'd already seen them?

    And I'm getting sick and tired of everyone claiming that the only way to reach Admiral by this point is that we must have all exploited. Can I say that no one has exploited, of course not. But it's just as absurd of you to claim that everyone has. I have never attempted to fix a PvP match to cycle them faster (hell, I've never even gotten in when I've enters the que), and I've never AFK'd in a deep space soaking XP. Hell, Commander + I rarely spent more than 1 or 2 rounds straight in a deep space because there simply weren't any. The majority of my latter levels came form doing sector patrols and exploration missions, with just a quick deep space thrown in between them occasionally.

    Just because we don't add and extra few hours to each mission by exploring for (basically useless) anomalies, or reading every chat bubble when the green highlighted one means you must click this to advance, doesn't mean we've done anything underhanded, or that I would be at all uneasy about having a dev or GM look through my leveling logs. I simply knew the content from beta (Multiple betas even), so I knew where to go and didn't need to spend any time learning the basics. Nothing unsavory about it.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    skylr616 wrote: »
    I think thats the whole point... we criticise Cryptic for not releasing unfinished end-game content, then we turn around and complain about them releasing unfinished Klingon content. They just can't win.

    I am much happier with the product being out now and playing it AS they finish the content off... if you really want to play a finished product then return to the game in a year (at least this way, YOU GET THE CHOICE).



    i see from your signature that you are a commander. sorry to bring this to you, but have you thought about what fleet action you might be enjoying after crystaline? (i dont even enjoy crystaline - klingon scout force was my favorit)

    guess what - none :) there is no more instances afterwards - same goes for the content. sure you can do the missions, patrouls, sector defenses. i did most of them - and all of them had the same basic principle gameplay - set phasers to murder and go. i would like to group up with 4 other people and do some fleet actions or instances - call it what you want. why not have a 5man mission that takes a litle while and rewards a blue item or so that all can roll on? you can choose who you want to group with, that would give the fleets some sense aswell
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    theCorvus wrote:
    That is a complete load of tosh. EvE doesn't even have an end game. People who have been playing since launch haven't hit the skill cap (which is always expanding). A one day old newbie can be playing EvE "end game".

    That is one of the great things about EvE. No "sorry you can't play with us you are too low level". Newbies can always scout or just collect loot for you.

    And when EvE launched all you could do was kill people, mine, and build stuff. No sovereignty, no star bases or outposts. PVE "end game" wasn't added until over a year after launch.

    End game starts on day one in eve. I love nubs in that game, catch them early and you can have a bloodthirsty little bugger who is a valuble fleet asset within the first day. The thing with both eve and SWG (pre NGE) was that the devs did not have to add more and more content to keep people happy, they gave us the tools to make our own content from day one.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Dude are you serious? Show me one MMO that didn't have at least some instance or raid to do at endgame. WoW at least had some 5 man stuff to do. Now show me another MMO where people didn't rush to max level. Go ahead... I"ll wait while you try to think of one. Don't hate on me because I made time to play over the weekend and level up. I pay just like you and expect at least something to do once the work is done.

    Dude you maxed out after 2 days.....gratz. But your not getting any sympathy from all the level 5's that are still enjoying the game. NO mmo has end game on day 3 including WOW which i persoanlly played from startup. I would rather see all the bugs fixed and then have cryptic start to work on content.

    I feel sorry for you because you completely missed the point of playing the game.

    Its not a race.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    stroke stroke stroke

    I made Admiral fastorz!!!! Notice me!!!!

    stroke stroke stroke
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Someone spends 24/7 playing the game (Minus patch time) to be the first to reach the end game then B&M about no end game content. I think it is a typical bragripe to be expected in the 1st week of the game.

    Cryptic should focus their patches on the more average player and not the maniac. For someone in the 0.1 percentile of players to demand they should get dibs on content is ludicrous. Unless he wants to start paying MY subscription then I expect Cryptic will improve the game for those of us in the 75 percentile first.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Yargnit wrote: »
    Ok, to completely reverse that, why would and developer spend 98% of their time developing content that 98% of the population will eventually (be it in hours or months) out level, as opposed to developing max level content that the player will be able to continue to make use of for the life of the game?.

    Because no one but power levelers would care about getting to max level if the content on the way wasn't good to begin with.

    I mean... your pretty much saying that the leveling doesn't matter at all... why didn't they just come out with a game that starts you at 45 and you just pick out all the stuff you want and go about doing missions that gain you nothing but gear and money.

    In life (and in gaming), its the journey that matters... not the destination.

    They will eventually add all that stuff at end-game (on... and on... etc), but for now they will add slowly and hopefully develop the content based on the feedback of people that take the time to savor all the content between the beginning and end-game.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think the op's post is interesting but I find it amazeing some of you people have so much time on your hands that you can rush through the game and no thats not ment as an insult. However I did have a similar experience on champions with a lack of end game content so I can totally understand how fusterateing it can to encounter a dead end.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    damn that sucks..theres no fleet actions after crystine entity...damn..
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Cryptic already said that in a few weeks after launch they were going to release more content including the Borg stuff. Well, go make another character now or start over. When a lot of people aren't even close to that rank why do that?
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    MorganUK wrote: »
    Reaching max level <> exploring all content. You can max out WoW and still only have discovered less than a thrid of the world.

    And the record for maxing out a wow character *Vanilla* ie 1-60 is around 26 hours so your post is a load of old tosh really

    Also when people swtich to Klingon and start maxing out their chracters I am sure there will be plenty of pvp there as well

    Here is a differnce in MMO development.

    In WoW I have 5 toons.... None of them have had the same player experience. Each had different starting points and leveled with different quest chains. Sure there was overlap and common dungeons but on each one it ws a slightly different game in the same world. And as you said there is still stuff none of them had done.

    In every cryptic game its a static linear progression. Every toon does the same thing in the same order. Since there is no replay value, people just powerlevel thru it because its mindnumbling boring. The missions dont even change. Same sets, Same mobs. For 50 levels.

    Even if you want to "gear up" your toon for PVP, all you can do is the one map. Over and Over and Over. So people tend to lose interest and move on.

    Same thing with CO. Every AT I played starts at the same spot. Does same series before moving on to the same zone and playing the same content again.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    are you people nuts? why do you keep ****ing the op off? there is no content for endgame and thats a fact. just because people decide to play it at their own pace doesnt mean you have to insult them. itmight help if you stopped defending your bs opinion and started asking for content. because sooner or later you will face the same ****ing situation. nothing to do that is. after crystaline - hell there arent even anymore fleet actions.

    and i dont see theproblem with setting up idiot fleet actions like klingon scout force. 5minutes of design - couple days of implementation is all we ask for.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    I think the op's post is interesting but I find it amazeing some of you people have so much time on your hands that you can rush through the game and no thats not ment as an insult. However I did have a similar experience on champions with a lack of end game content so I can totally understand how fusterateing it can to encounter a dead end.

    It is a sport to a number of people. They take their entire years vacation at the launch of certain games... getting 2 hours of sleep a night... to reach the highest level as quickly as possible. There are a few people that were Admiral on launch day. I think its pretty amazing, but I find it silly that some of these same people are annoyed with how little there is to do at the end of that week :P
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Chenchuan wrote: »
    Here is a differnce in MMO development.

    In WoW I have 5 toons.... None of them have had the same player experience. Each had different starting points and leveled with different quest chains. Sure there was overlap and common dungeons but on each one it ws a slightly different game in the same world. And as you said there is still stuff none of them had done.

    Really? You honestly played 5 different games? Doubt it. The level 1-10 starting areas are about as different as it gets...which takes maybe an hour or two. Everything else is the exact same grind. You may be able to quest in different areas, but once you hit around level 30, the content is exactly the same. Can't tell you the number of times I've done 'SM runs' from 31-35 so I could avoid Stranglethorn Hell. The only way it's 'somewhat' different is if you play opposing factions, but it's still the same basic idea.
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    Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2010
    Whoa almost 50 pages in a few hours.

    But I'm not sure why anyone is surprised. There was NO END GAME whatsoever in Champions Online either. That's why everyone hit max in a week, and quit. That game is a ghost town, much like Star Trek Online will be if they don't get some end game content in and quickly. Leveling is a breeze in this game especially with Defend missions. Was getting a level about every 30 minutes.

    Cryptic DOESN'T build for End Game. Just look at the developers history for a quick lesson. They don't plan for longevity, they plan to make the big bucks on release from everyone purchasing a copy, make a few more dollars off the suckers who bought into Lifetime, and then move onto another MMO to repeat the same process. What a shocker, they are already working on another MMO as we speak.

    So if your looking for a game to play for months, you bought the wrong game. I knew this game would be done and over with in under a month, but that's fine with me. That's more playtime then I usually get out of a $50 game purchase. If your looking for an MMO to spend years of playtime on then I'd suggest something more a long the lines of World Of Warcraft, Lord Of The Rings Online, or EverQuest 2. Cryptic doesn't make MMOs, they make console games for your PC, play STO with a Xbox 360 controller, it feels just right.
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