Ok, after taking some time to digest the reactions in a simple informative post I created (also, I had to go do my College stuff today first as well; priorities after all 😁), I figured I should take a moment to respond to it all. First of all, I would like to say that I personally disagree that anyone should (or will at all) get a refund back for anything they buy in game that gets nerfed later on. The old adage caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) still applies here, and in any game, just like it would when buying anything in life as well, whether it be a car, a house, a DVD player, and so on.
However, was this a "amoral" act? Honestly, I do not know. It certainly sucks though, and doesn't speak very highly about how the company runs things or makes its decisions, but that can be said of any company in truth. Even those who put out games. It is just part of the nature of the beast, as I have seen this happen before in a few games I have played, and it always hurt. Next though, I want to say this about the nerfs specifically. The only real one that was a major one that hurt so many players in the game, was the huge chainsaw they put to the Neutronic Eddies console.
They did not have to go this extreme with it, but for some reason they did, and I and others who play the game know it to be a fact. It absolutely did need to be looked at and adjusted, but not by as much as it has been. Making it 1/5th as effective as it was would have been good enough (though correct me if I am wrong in this please), but changing it so it is now less than 1% as effective is just a bat TRIBBLE crazy idea to come up with. You don't need to be an expert to know that at all (even a caveman like me can see it). So even as its passive effects haven't been hit, it still a horrible choice to simply make it relatively useless now.
Lastly (for now at least), this is directed towards BMR. I was personally one of your "quiet" supporters behind the scenes, and I always felt like some people gave you far more TRIBBLE than you ever deserved. However, what you just did (e.g. erassing a legit video that gave great and true INFORMATION about the game, from someone highly respected in game and out of it, and from someone with more credibility than many who play the game, including you and me both), has unfortunately made me reassess my opinion. And that is not only a shame, it breaks my heart.
Why? Because I know first hand how hard it is to be a forum moderator, having spent decades being on forums and interacting with mod's a lot. Some are very cool. Some try and see things from BOTH sides of a issue. Some are heavy handed. Some are just plain ignorant & egotistical. Some though are even way too lenient to be an effective one. And to be frank, atm I do not know which you are, or how many aspects I listed you have. But one thing is sure. I believe you have forgotten something important. And that is you are a player of STO FIRST, and a forum moderator SECOND.
You do not work for Cryptic (so you say, and I believe you.. for now), but what you did makes people think you do in fact work for them. I hate discrimination, but you also know what else I hate? I hate, hate censorship, and what you did, speaks of that very highly. In no way did I break the terms of this site, and if you think it was "trolling", I ask that you prove it... otherwise it is just your opinion, and as we all know, opinions are like... well, you know the rest lol. So let me give you some friendly advice sir...
A effective balanced forum moderator needs credibility and respect to get his job done right, and NOT be considered a over handed forum bully. Remember the old adage... Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely? Well, this applies to everyone in all aspects of people in positions of power, including presidents, business owners, and even forum moderators. So next time you feel the urge to do something on these forums, remember to take a step back, try and see things from the other person's viewpoint, reases, and THEN act as a reasonable, balanced, respectful person would. Because quite frankly, atm your credibility has just taken a bit of a more or less shot, and no mod needs that ever.
Anyways, I am sorry for causing such a ruckus here with some legit video info, and setting you in any way. My intent was only to illuminate something important with a video done by someone who has great credibility and information; never to cause heat or hurt anyone.In either case, sorry about the LONG TRIBBLE post, but seeing as I was the one who began it, I figured I should clear the air here. Oh, and to help anyone who needs some clarity on what a true troll is, I give you this image (as the video I posted was not trolling in any way; only the ignorant would see it as such). God bless you all, and as always...
@bjorjlen#6464 Ummm... I didn't remove that video. 🤷🏼♀️
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Calm down folks.
While most of us would rather have our shiny toys continue to sparkle, it is also no surprise that the damage output on both was reduced drastically. Those powers/consoles dominated the damage output for a reason and an eventual scale down was to be expected.
Similarly will the damage output from the lance console from that lockbox pilot ship be adjusted in time.
Probably the only reason why it has not happened yet is because fewer people have access to it.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
> @bjorjlen#6464 said: > Wow... > > Ok, after taking some time to digest the reactions in a simple informative post I created (also, I had to go do my College stuff today first as well; priorities after all 😁), I figured I should take a moment to respond to it all. First of all, I would like to say that I personally disagree that anyone should (or will at all) get a refund back for anything they buy in game that gets nerfed later on. The old adage caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) still applies here, and in any game, just like it would when buying anything in life as well, whether it be a car, a house, a DVD player, and so on. > > However, was this a "amoral" act? Honestly, I do not know. It certainly sucks though, and doesn't speak very highly about how the company runs things or makes its decisions, but that can be said of any company in truth. Even those who put out games. It is just part of the nature of the beast, as I have seen this happen before in a few games I have played, and it always hurt. Next though, I want to say this about the nerfs specifically. The only real one that was a major one that hurt so many players in the game, was the huge chainsaw they put to the Neutronic Eddies console. > > They did not have to go this extreme with it, but for some reason they did, and I and others who play the game know it to be a fact. It absolutely did need to be looked at and adjusted, but not by as much as it has been. Making it 1/5th as effective as it was would have been good enough (though correct me if I am wrong in this please), but changing it so it is now less than 1% as effective is just a bat TRIBBLE crazy idea to come up with. You don't need to be an expert to know that at all (even a caveman like me can see it). So even as its passive effects haven't been hit, it still a horrible choice to simply make it relatively useless now. > > Lastly (for now at least), this is directed towards BMR. I was personally one of your "quiet" supporters behind the scenes, and I always felt like some people gave you far more TRIBBLE than you ever deserved. However, what you just did (e.g. erassing a legit video that gave great and true INFORMATION about the game, from someone highly respected in game and out of it, and from someone with more credibility than many who play the game, including you and me both), has unfortunately made me reassess my opinion. And that is not only a shame, it breaks my heart. > > Why? Because I know first hand how hard it is to be a forum moderator, having spent decades being on forums and interacting with mod's a lot. Some are very cool. Some try and see things from BOTH sides of a issue. Some are heavy handed. Some are just plain ignorant & egotistical. Some though are even way too lenient to be an effective one. And to be frank, atm I do not know which you are, or how many aspects I listed you have. But one thing is sure. I believe you have forgotten something important. And that is you are a player of STO FIRST, and a forum moderator SECOND. > > You do not work for Cryptic (so you say, and I believe you.. for now), but what you did makes people think you do in fact work for them. I hate discrimination, but you also know what else I hate? I hate, hate censorship, and what you did, speaks of that very highly. In no way did I break the terms of this site, and if you think it was "trolling", I ask that you prove it... otherwise it is just your opinion, and as we all know, opinions are like... well, you know the rest lol. So let me give you some friendly advice sir... > > A effective balanced forum moderator needs credibility and respect to get his job done right, and NOT be considered a over handed forum bully. Remember the old adage... Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely? Well, this applies to everyone in all aspects of people in positions of power, including presidents, business owners, and even forum moderators. So next time you feel the urge to do something on these forums, remember to take a step back, try and see things from the other person's viewpoint, reases, and THEN act as a reasonable, balanced, respectful person would. Because quite frankly, atm your credibility has just taken a bit of a more or less shot, and no mod needs that ever. > > Anyways, I am sorry for causing such a ruckus here with some legit video info, and setting you in any way. My intent was only to illuminate something important with a video done by someone who has great credibility and information; never to cause heat or hurt anyone.In either case, sorry about the LONG TRIBBLE post, but seeing as I was the one who began it, I figured I should clear the air here. Oh, and to help anyone who needs some clarity on what a true troll is, I give you this image (as the video I posted was not trolling in any way; only the ignorant would see it as such). God bless you all, and as always... > > Peace...
BMR did not remove the video link, another mod did. Please apologize to BMR for the false accusation against him.
Wow, now I feel even worse, and totally even more like a caveman now. BMR, I do sincerely apologize for directing my "heat" towards you; there is nothing I could say to excuse what I directed at you, as you had nothing to do with it at all. Some of my feeling I have are very much legit, BUT that is no reason to excuse the huge mistake I just did. I only saw what was done early this morning when I got up, and being half asleep still, when I saw the "b" in the name I (wrongly) assumed that it was you who had erased the video I posted as I thought that only you and @rattler2 were the only two moderators here.
Being disabled with brain damage, it sometimes affects' my ability to notice things unfortunately, but again that is no reason to blame you for what happened, and for that I very, very sincerely apologize for my error. I do not ask that you, or anyone forgive (or excuse) what I did, I only say that I am sorry, and I will try to pay more attention next time. Thank you for bringing light to my eyes and my error, including you @sthe91; I do appreciate it. Thank you, and again, sorry...
Peace...
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
We have four mods. Baddmoon and I just happen to be the most visible. Darkblade is also relatively active, and helps with some bug related issues. Wingedhussar isn't as active, but does appear.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Lastly (for now at least), this is directed towards BMR. I was personally one of your "quiet" supporters behind the scenes, and I always felt like some people gave you far more TRIBBLE than you ever deserved. However, what you just did (e.g. erassing a legit video that gave great and true INFORMATION about the game, from someone highly respected in game and out of it, and from someone with more credibility than many who play the game, including you and me both), has unfortunately made me reassess my opinion. And that is not only a shame, it breaks my heart.
Well, I appreciate whatever "quiet support" you may have allegedly afforded me, however short lived. I didn't see the video, so I cannot offer an opinion on it, but all of your qualifiers about the individual who made it and whatever information that it contained are, of course, your opinion. As such, that doesn't mean it necessarily holds the same with all people. That's for each person to determine for themselves. 🤷♀️
Why? Because I know first hand how hard it is to be a forum moderator, having spent decades being on forums and interacting with mod's a lot. Some are very cool. Some try and see things from BOTH sides of a issue. Some are heavy handed. Some are just plain ignorant & egotistical. Some though are even way too lenient to be an effective one. And to be frank, atm I do not know which you are, or how many aspects I listed you have. But one thing is sure. I believe you have forgotten something important. And that is you are a player of STO FIRST, and a forum moderator SECOND.
I have not forgotten that I am a STO player first. You have no idea how much I advocate for you guys behind the scenes. 👩⚖️
You do not work for Cryptic (so you say, and I believe you.. for now), but what you did makes people think you do in fact work for them. I hate discrimination, but you also know what else I hate? I hate, hate censorship, and what you did, speaks of that very highly. In no way did I break the terms of this site, and if you think it was "trolling", I ask that you prove it... otherwise it is just your opinion, and as we all know, opinions are like... well, you know the rest lol. So let me give you some friendly advice sir...
Again, I was not the one to remove the video, but I am aware of the decision to do so. I object to your use of the term "discrimination," though. There was nothing discriminatory about the action. As for censorship, that's part and parcel of the job as moderator, where such things that are censored violate forum rules. No one is saying necessarily that you were trolling, in fact, you were given benefit of the doubt. The video itself, the maker of said video, was the one considered trolling, and so it was removed from this platform. They are, of course, free to say what they want where they originally uploaded it, but Cryptic is under no obligation to host it on their own platform. As for my opinion of what is "trolling"... yes, it is my opinion whenever I determine whether something is trolling. That's the very definition of my job as moderator, to determine things like that, and apply the rules where necessary. All of that relies on my judgment, my opinion as it were. I don't come to such decisions arbitarily. And please, don't call me "sir." 😉
A effective balanced forum moderator needs credibility and respect to get his job done right, and NOT be considered a over handed forum bully. Remember the old adage... Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely? Well, this applies to everyone in all aspects of people in positions of power, including presidents, business owners, and even forum moderators. So next time you feel the urge to do something on these forums, remember to take a step back, try and see things from the other person's viewpoint, reases, and THEN act as a reasonable, balanced, respectful person would. Because quite frankly, atm your credibility has just taken a bit of a more or less shot, and no mod needs that ever.
I can assure you that it doesn't matter how fair, or balanced I am in moderating this forum. There will always be someone who believes that I've overstepped and/or overreacted. Believe me, even uttering my own opinion seems to cause all kinds of issues with certain people. While I appreciate your advice, it's unnecessary, as I already do all the things you've suggested. Some don't see it that way, I know, because they're not actually on my end seeing that assessment process happening. They just see the end result. Just because I go through that assessment process, though, doesn't mean it's necessarily going to go your way. And just because it didn't go your way, doesn't mean that I didn't go through that assessment process. I've been doing this job a long time. I'm the longest serving active moderator on this forum. I came on the job back when Trendy was our Community Manager, and unlike my fellow moderators, had to go through a grueling interview process and was tested before I was granted the title and the powers that come with it. So, I was thoroughly vetted. I know what I'm doing. But thanks for your concern. 😊
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Is the issue who removed the video, or that the video was removed? If it were removed? What was the reason for its removal? Is that ok to ask? I know we aren’t supposed to discuss moderation. But you two are talking about it—does that mean we can have access to the censored information?
We have four mods. Baddmoon and I just happen to be the most visible. Darkblade is also relatively active, and helps with some bug related issues. Wingedhussar isn't as active, but does appear.
Thank you, thank you, very much for that information @rattler2. It will help me keep things straight from now on...
Wow, now I feel even worse, and totally even more like a caveman now. BMR, I do sincerely apologize for directing my "heat" towards you; there is nothing I could say to excuse what I directed at you, as you had nothing to do with it at all. Some of my feeling I have are very much legit, BUT that is no reason to excuse the huge mistake I just did. I only saw what was done early this morning when I got up, and being half asleep still, when I saw the "b" in the name I (wrongly) assumed that it was you who had erased the video I posted as I thought that only you and @rattler2 were the only two moderators here.
Being disabled with brain damage, it sometimes affects' my ability to notice things unfortunately, but again that is no reason to blame you for what happened, and for that I very, very sincerely apologize for my error. I do not ask that you, or anyone forgive (or excuse) what I did, I only say that I am sorry, and I will try to pay more attention next time. Thank you for bringing light to my eyes and my error, including you @sthe91; I do appreciate it. Thank you, and again, sorry...
Peace...
I bear no ill will. I don't take such things personally. It's all good. 😉
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Wow, now I feel even worse, and totally even more like a caveman now. BMR, I do sincerely apologize for directing my "heat" towards you; there is nothing I could say to excuse what I directed at you, as you had nothing to do with it at all. Some of my feeling I have are very much legit, BUT that is no reason to excuse the huge mistake I just did. I only saw what was done early this morning when I got up, and being half asleep still, when I saw the "b" in the name I (wrongly) assumed that it was you who had erased the video I posted as I thought that only you and @rattler2 were the only two moderators here.
Being disabled with brain damage, it sometimes affects' my ability to notice things unfortunately, but again that is no reason to blame you for what happened, and for that I very, very sincerely apologize for my error. I do not ask that you, or anyone forgive (or excuse) what I did, I only say that I am sorry, and I will try to pay more attention next time. Thank you for bringing light to my eyes and my error, including you @sthe91; I do appreciate it. Thank you, and again, sorry...
Peace...
I bear no ill will. I don't take such things personally. It's all good. 😉
Thank you, but I bear some ill will towards myself. It was a stupid mistake, no matter the good reasons for it; it was a mistake to blame you for something that you never did. So I won't be posting much for a bit until I feel better about it all; self moderation and all that. However, I am still confused by why it was erased in the first place as watching it again, and reading the definitions on both flaming & trolling, in no way was it either. But like you said, that is my opinion, and like I said, they can be like... ok I'll stop there as everyone knows anyways. In either case, thank you again for your kind understanding, and I apologize again for my inaccurate depiction of you doing this. Jar-Jar Binks I be atm...
Is the issue who removed the video, or that the video was removed? If it were removed? What was the reason for its removal? Is that ok to ask? I know we aren’t supposed to discuss moderation. But you two are talking about it—does that mean we can have access to the censored information?
The issue was the removal. It was removed, though, because its content violated forum rules. Yes, it is discussion of moderation, so we're going to just leave it there.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Well, as expected they refused to refund anything.
So now they've lost a customer who's been spending 300-500$ a year on zen. (Flaming, trolling comments moderated out. - BMR).
Yeah, this is bad behavior that shouldn't be rewarded. I will do the same. Not interested in the things I enjoy using randomly broken. No salt, just better things to spend my money on.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
This is one of the rare times I will explain something like this. I was the one who removed the video after having watched it. Person who made the video is entitled to their opinions like everyone else, but the video was not appropriate for this forum due to some of what was said in the video, more so how it was said than anything else. That's why it was removed. By terms of service I could have blanked the entire post, but I didn't do so because I didn't feel it right to wipe an entire thing for the words of another person in a linked video. That's all I'm going to say on that.
Now with the unpleasantness out of the way, I don't see the changes being as bad as people are talking about and I strongly disagree with folks who think Hull Image Refractors is useless now. You're still able to essentially double the hull of your current ship, which is nothing to sneeze at. The only thing that changed is you can't take an escort with say 70k hull and push it to over 250k or something like that now. Taking a ship from 100k to 200k hull thanks to that console is a significant boost still. Folks may not care much for it on the DPS side of things, but it still has value as a tank console.
With the Neutronic Eddies, Agony Redistributor, and Tholian Webspinner, I've used those consoles myself and I'm honestly surprised it took them this long to see some kind of change. While they were fun to use and fantastic consoles, they were becoming THE answer if you wanted to utilize certain builds. They didn't get to the point that the embassy plasma exploders or plasmonic leech did, but they still needed some adjustment. We can debate whether or not they've been over-nerfed or what have you, but it's not healthy for a game when items become THE answer in all cases.
When it comes to those items being nerfed, yes it sucks, but in the ToS they make clear that we could see adjustments or changes at any time. Yes it sucks if you paid money to get your hands on an item, but just like the kemocite deal before this, if an item is overpowered, they're going to nerf it for the health of the game. If people chose to buy the items out of the cstore or what have you, that is a choice you as a buyer made and is not Cryptic's fault. If you're someone who used the items, yes it sucks. I'm not fond of the changes to Hull Image Refractors, Tholian Webspinner or Agony Redistributor, but it happens. It means I now need to find different items to use. Cryptic never forced anyone to buy those items, people chose to buy those items.
I used to play alot of Magic the Gathering quite a bit years ago. When there were significantly powerful decks that became THE deck to play, bans for certain cards were issued for the health of the game. If you go to a tournament with 100 people, and 95 out of the 100 people there are playing the exact same deck, it's going to get old quick. If you buy into that deck while it's in the OP state, that is a decision you made as a player knowing the risk of the deck getting hit. If/when the deck gets hit a year or so down the road, or even a few months, you are not owed a refund for that. You chose to invest knowing the risk of the deck getting hit. I've had it happen in Magic, I've had it happen her in STO. It sucks every time it happens, but you move on. If you want to take a break for awhile or choose not to buy anything else, that's your choice to make as a player. I'm a strong proponent of voting with one's wallet. The fact that items can get nerfed and hit is why I advocate people not locking themselves strictly into one specific style of build. Such as don't lock yourself exclusively into disruptor energy DPS to the point you don't know how to do anything else. Diversify your builds.
When an item does high amounts of damage, that's not a bad thing by itself. When it starts to become THE answer like some of those items were doing, it's time for an adjustment. Again folks aren't required to like it, but it's going to happen from time to time.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I already put in a ticket demanding refunds for the adamant and risian weather control vessel. If they refuse to honor that much, I'll never buy zen again. It's bad enough that the mudd market is absolutely outrageous in its pricing, we've gone so far beyond "micro" transactions it isn't even funny, but to then turn around and take things that people have shelled out hundreds of dollars for and make them some of the worst consoles in the game without any warning or disclaimer? Nothing short of abhorrent behavior from Cryptic here.
why would you expect a refund on the risian ship? it was a giveaway summer ship. stuff happens. if they nerf sci down so it's not worth doing (again) so be it. early in this games history, you hit someone with viral matris, gw and or a drain, then float over and wipe the system with the carcass. then they nerfed sci BADLY. to the point it was not worth flying. I knew this was coming because they released far too much EPG stuff
Over time I've seen STO become "escorts online", cruiser BFAW city, megawell town, etc. etc. etc. etc. Right now it's Jellyfish Bubble Zone in TFOs but this too shall pass.
People who take this month's flavor of build too seriously might get very upset if their escort is no longer the DPS king, especially if they spent 900 million EC and 30,000 zen buying this month's ship traits, consoles, captain traits, boff skill manuals, etc.
I do agree that nerfs and the rare level increases like 60 -> 65 can be annoying if you've settled into a build and have no interest in changing it, but changes are part of MMO life.
If we do have to lower the power level of an item, and it’s an item players worked hard to get (which is very often the case), we will try to keep the item strong and viable, and not just lower its power level to the point where it never makes sense to use it. That won’t always be possible, and even where it is possible, sometimes we’ll miss that target — it’s a hard one to hit! But that will be our goal. In practice, an item that is crazy good for everybody will often, when balanced, become an item that’s good for some classes and builds but only O.K. for others.
Balance changes will not generally lead to makegoods, but we might make exceptions in certain cases involving big power decreases for items people had to directly pay cash for — we want to emphasize that it is NEVER our intention to grab cash from some deliberately too-strong item and then lower its power level, so a makegood can be called for in those cases.
In order to get better at making these kinds of changes, and to make fewer mistakes in the first place, we have recently formed a “Rewards Council”. The Council has all the item designers, the lead systems designer, the executive producer, and selected “expert character builders” from other parts of the Neverwinter team. The Rewards Council reviews all the items for each module before they go out, and it also reviews any big item power level changes we make on already-released items. Note the Rewards Council does not just lower power levels; especially in the pre-release reviews, there is a lot of feedback along the lines of “nobody will want that, what can we do to make it better?” (So far, we have actually spent more time increasing power levels than lowering them, although we do both.) We hope the amount of worthwhile gear we release with each module will go up over time as the Rewards Council gets better at its job.
We know that every time a strong piece of gear has its power level lowered, it can be painful. We hope that by being careful, being consistent, and following the guidelines discussed above, we will nevertheless still be making Neverwinter a better experience, and that any pain from the lowered power levels will be outweighed by a more enjoyable Neverwinter overall.
Nerfing things has ben the fallback for MMO evelopers for years. Rather than nerfing skills or items, why not create new skills or items that counter any seemingly overpowered aspects they may have? The research and development aspect of the game could be used to originate these counters. That way if one group doesn't like how powerful a skill or item lets another group be, they can choose to fabricate the elements needed to counter them. The ends would be the same, but the means would be through gameplay rather than just an arbitrary nerf that removes the very reason the item or skill appealed to the player who worked/paid for it in the first place.
I remember reading about a disease in another MMO that players could get infected with, and they in turn could infect other players. The result was an emergent pandemic in the game. The devs should have seen this as an opportunity to seed the game with reagents that players could experiment with to cvome up with a cure, and once discovered, while the disease could still be caught and spread, could be cured, adding another layer of engagement to the gameplay.
Wow, some very articulate (if i used articulate correctly) and thoughtful responses, well stated moderators. I am not trying to pump sunshine. No matter how i read that though, it sounds that way. lol I just enjoy reading something you can tell someone put effort and thought into. I also agree though that these consoles are not broken and are still viable. Take it on the chin with a grin. And remember- don't fly angry.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
I remember reading about a disease in another MMO that players could get infected with, and they in turn could infect other players. The result was an emergent pandemic in the game. The devs should have seen this as an opportunity to seed the game with reagents that players could experiment with to cvome up with a cure, and once discovered, while the disease could still be caught and spread, could be cured, adding another layer of engagement to the gameplay.
I think there was a thing in WoW about that, and it also happened in TOR.
However... the way you describe solving the issue still revolves around the Developer making that counter for players to find, while you kinda make it sound like "let the players solve it themselves".
As Darkblade said earlier, when something becomes the MUST HAVE, GO TO item that EVERYONE MUST HAVE to do anything... that's a problem, because if everyone is using it and refusing to use anything else... what's the point?
I had a fleetmate who was absolutely ADAMANT that no ship could beat the Temporal Multi-Mission Science Vessel for a megawell build. Of course he's also an old WoW veteran who takes his MMOs a bit more seriously. If its not Best in Slot, its not worth even trying it. Yet we have other ships that can pull the Megawell just fine.
I guess what I'm trying to add to Darkblade's explanation is that Best in Slot isn't always Best for Game. If everyone is running around in cookie cutter builds, there's no diversity. If everyone is flying the exact same build in the exact same ship... what's the point of doing anything? What's the point of experimenting with new things that come out if its not Best in Slot?
STO is a game that allows for extreme, viable diversity. You can have Tetryon builds competing with Phaser builds competing with Disruptor builds... and builds on so many different ships...
But when you have something that overpowers that diversity, something that basically demands one particular playstyle above all else... it takes away the fun that STO allows with its diversity.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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And that happens in STO too - you can take certain effects out of TFOs and damage or kill other players in social zones with them - anyone remember the elachi facehugger terror bombings from a few years back?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
So now they've lost a customer who's been spending 300-500$ a year on zen. (Flaming, trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)
Yeah.
And just because they have the right to do something, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. But hey, TRIBBLE is as TRIBBLE does (self-redacted).
Ok, after taking some time to digest the reactions in a simple informative post I created (also, I had to go do my College stuff today first as well; priorities after all 😁), I figured I should take a moment to respond to it all. First of all, I would like to say that I personally disagree that anyone should (or will at all) get a refund back for anything they buy in game that gets nerfed later on. The old adage caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) still applies here, and in any game, just like it would when buying anything in life as well, whether it be a car, a house, a DVD player, and so on.
However, was this a "amoral" act? Honestly, I do not know. It certainly sucks though, and doesn't speak very highly about how the company runs things or makes its decisions, but that can be said of any company in truth. Even those who put out games. It is just part of the nature of the beast, as I have seen this happen before in a few games I have played, and it always hurt. Next though, I want to say this about the nerfs specifically. The only real one that was a major one that hurt so many players in the game, was the huge chainsaw they put to the Neutronic Eddies console.
They did not have to go this extreme with it, but for some reason they did, and I and others who play the game know it to be a fact. It absolutely did need to be looked at and adjusted, but not by as much as it has been. Making it 1/5th as effective as it was would have been good enough (though correct me if I am wrong in this please), but changing it so it is now less than 1% as effective is just a bat TRIBBLE crazy idea to come up with. You don't need to be an expert to know that at all (even a caveman like me can see it). So even as its passive effects haven't been hit, it still a horrible choice to simply make it relatively useless now.
Lastly (for now at least), this is directed towards BMR. I was personally one of your "quiet" supporters behind the scenes, and I always felt like some people gave you far more TRIBBLE than you ever deserved. However, what you just did (e.g. erassing a legit video that gave great and true INFORMATION about the game, from someone highly respected in game and out of it, and from someone with more credibility than many who play the game, including you and me both), has unfortunately made me reassess my opinion. And that is not only a shame, it breaks my heart.
Why? Because I know first hand how hard it is to be a forum moderator, having spent decades being on forums and interacting with mod's a lot. Some are very cool. Some try and see things from BOTH sides of a issue. Some are heavy handed. Some are just plain ignorant & egotistical. Some though are even way too lenient to be an effective one. And to be frank, atm I do not know which you are, or how many aspects I listed you have. But one thing is sure. I believe you have forgotten something important. And that is you are a player of STO FIRST, and a forum moderator SECOND.
You do not work for Cryptic (so you say, and I believe you.. for now), but what you did makes people think you do in fact work for them. I hate discrimination, but you also know what else I hate? I hate, hate censorship, and what you did, speaks of that very highly. In no way did I break the terms of this site, and if you think it was "trolling", I ask that you prove it... otherwise it is just your opinion, and as we all know, opinions are like... well, you know the rest lol. So let me give you some friendly advice sir...
A effective balanced forum moderator needs credibility and respect to get his job done right, and NOT be considered a over handed forum bully. Remember the old adage... Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely? Well, this applies to everyone in all aspects of people in positions of power, including presidents, business owners, and even forum moderators. So next time you feel the urge to do something on these forums, remember to take a step back, try and see things from the other person's viewpoint, reases, and THEN act as a reasonable, balanced, respectful person would. Because quite frankly, atm your credibility has just taken a bit of a more or less shot, and no mod needs that ever.
Anyways, I am sorry for causing such a ruckus here with some legit video info, and setting you in any way. My intent was only to illuminate something important with a video done by someone who has great credibility and information; never to cause heat or hurt anyone.In either case, sorry about the LONG TRIBBLE post, but seeing as I was the one who began it, I figured I should clear the air here. Oh, and to help anyone who needs some clarity on what a true troll is, I give you this image (as the video I posted was not trolling in any way; only the ignorant would see it as such). God bless you all, and as always...
Peace...
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While most of us would rather have our shiny toys continue to sparkle, it is also no surprise that the damage output on both was reduced drastically. Those powers/consoles dominated the damage output for a reason and an eventual scale down was to be expected.
Similarly will the damage output from the lance console from that lockbox pilot ship be adjusted in time.
Probably the only reason why it has not happened yet is because fewer people have access to it.
> Wow...
>
> Ok, after taking some time to digest the reactions in a simple informative post I created (also, I had to go do my College stuff today first as well; priorities after all 😁), I figured I should take a moment to respond to it all. First of all, I would like to say that I personally disagree that anyone should (or will at all) get a refund back for anything they buy in game that gets nerfed later on. The old adage caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) still applies here, and in any game, just like it would when buying anything in life as well, whether it be a car, a house, a DVD player, and so on.
>
> However, was this a "amoral" act? Honestly, I do not know. It certainly sucks though, and doesn't speak very highly about how the company runs things or makes its decisions, but that can be said of any company in truth. Even those who put out games. It is just part of the nature of the beast, as I have seen this happen before in a few games I have played, and it always hurt. Next though, I want to say this about the nerfs specifically. The only real one that was a major one that hurt so many players in the game, was the huge chainsaw they put to the Neutronic Eddies console.
>
> They did not have to go this extreme with it, but for some reason they did, and I and others who play the game know it to be a fact. It absolutely did need to be looked at and adjusted, but not by as much as it has been. Making it 1/5th as effective as it was would have been good enough (though correct me if I am wrong in this please), but changing it so it is now less than 1% as effective is just a bat TRIBBLE crazy idea to come up with. You don't need to be an expert to know that at all (even a caveman like me can see it). So even as its passive effects haven't been hit, it still a horrible choice to simply make it relatively useless now.
>
> Lastly (for now at least), this is directed towards BMR. I was personally one of your "quiet" supporters behind the scenes, and I always felt like some people gave you far more TRIBBLE than you ever deserved. However, what you just did (e.g. erassing a legit video that gave great and true INFORMATION about the game, from someone highly respected in game and out of it, and from someone with more credibility than many who play the game, including you and me both), has unfortunately made me reassess my opinion. And that is not only a shame, it breaks my heart.
>
> Why? Because I know first hand how hard it is to be a forum moderator, having spent decades being on forums and interacting with mod's a lot. Some are very cool. Some try and see things from BOTH sides of a issue. Some are heavy handed. Some are just plain ignorant & egotistical. Some though are even way too lenient to be an effective one. And to be frank, atm I do not know which you are, or how many aspects I listed you have. But one thing is sure. I believe you have forgotten something important. And that is you are a player of STO FIRST, and a forum moderator SECOND.
>
> You do not work for Cryptic (so you say, and I believe you.. for now), but what you did makes people think you do in fact work for them. I hate discrimination, but you also know what else I hate? I hate, hate censorship, and what you did, speaks of that very highly. In no way did I break the terms of this site, and if you think it was "trolling", I ask that you prove it... otherwise it is just your opinion, and as we all know, opinions are like... well, you know the rest lol. So let me give you some friendly advice sir...
>
> A effective balanced forum moderator needs credibility and respect to get his job done right, and NOT be considered a over handed forum bully. Remember the old adage... Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely? Well, this applies to everyone in all aspects of people in positions of power, including presidents, business owners, and even forum moderators. So next time you feel the urge to do something on these forums, remember to take a step back, try and see things from the other person's viewpoint, reases, and THEN act as a reasonable, balanced, respectful person would. Because quite frankly, atm your credibility has just taken a bit of a more or less shot, and no mod needs that ever.
>
> Anyways, I am sorry for causing such a ruckus here with some legit video info, and setting you in any way. My intent was only to illuminate something important with a video done by someone who has great credibility and information; never to cause heat or hurt anyone.In either case, sorry about the LONG TRIBBLE post, but seeing as I was the one who began it, I figured I should clear the air here. Oh, and to help anyone who needs some clarity on what a true troll is, I give you this image (as the video I posted was not trolling in any way; only the ignorant would see it as such). God bless you all, and as always...
>
> Peace...
BMR did not remove the video link, another mod did. Please apologize to BMR for the false accusation against him.
Being disabled with brain damage, it sometimes affects' my ability to notice things unfortunately, but again that is no reason to blame you for what happened, and for that I very, very sincerely apologize for my error. I do not ask that you, or anyone forgive (or excuse) what I did, I only say that I am sorry, and I will try to pay more attention next time. Thank you for bringing light to my eyes and my error, including you @sthe91; I do appreciate it. Thank you, and again, sorry...
Peace...
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Well, I appreciate whatever "quiet support" you may have allegedly afforded me, however short lived. I didn't see the video, so I cannot offer an opinion on it, but all of your qualifiers about the individual who made it and whatever information that it contained are, of course, your opinion. As such, that doesn't mean it necessarily holds the same with all people. That's for each person to determine for themselves. 🤷♀️
I have not forgotten that I am a STO player first. You have no idea how much I advocate for you guys behind the scenes. 👩⚖️
Again, I was not the one to remove the video, but I am aware of the decision to do so. I object to your use of the term "discrimination," though. There was nothing discriminatory about the action. As for censorship, that's part and parcel of the job as moderator, where such things that are censored violate forum rules. No one is saying necessarily that you were trolling, in fact, you were given benefit of the doubt. The video itself, the maker of said video, was the one considered trolling, and so it was removed from this platform. They are, of course, free to say what they want where they originally uploaded it, but Cryptic is under no obligation to host it on their own platform. As for my opinion of what is "trolling"... yes, it is my opinion whenever I determine whether something is trolling. That's the very definition of my job as moderator, to determine things like that, and apply the rules where necessary. All of that relies on my judgment, my opinion as it were. I don't come to such decisions arbitarily. And please, don't call me "sir." 😉
I can assure you that it doesn't matter how fair, or balanced I am in moderating this forum. There will always be someone who believes that I've overstepped and/or overreacted. Believe me, even uttering my own opinion seems to cause all kinds of issues with certain people. While I appreciate your advice, it's unnecessary, as I already do all the things you've suggested. Some don't see it that way, I know, because they're not actually on my end seeing that assessment process happening. They just see the end result. Just because I go through that assessment process, though, doesn't mean it's necessarily going to go your way. And just because it didn't go your way, doesn't mean that I didn't go through that assessment process. I've been doing this job a long time. I'm the longest serving active moderator on this forum. I came on the job back when Trendy was our Community Manager, and unlike my fellow moderators, had to go through a grueling interview process and was tested before I was granted the title and the powers that come with it. So, I was thoroughly vetted. I know what I'm doing. But thanks for your concern. 😊
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Thank you, thank you, very much for that information @rattler2. It will help me keep things straight from now on...
Peace...
I bear no ill will. I don't take such things personally. It's all good. 😉
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You're welcome. As I said when you first came on the forums, don't hesitate to ask.
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colored text = mod mode
Thank you, but I bear some ill will towards myself. It was a stupid mistake, no matter the good reasons for it; it was a mistake to blame you for something that you never did. So I won't be posting much for a bit until I feel better about it all; self moderation and all that. However, I am still confused by why it was erased in the first place as watching it again, and reading the definitions on both flaming & trolling, in no way was it either. But like you said, that is my opinion, and like I said, they can be like... ok I'll stop there as everyone knows anyways. In either case, thank you again for your kind understanding, and I apologize again for my inaccurate depiction of you doing this. Jar-Jar Binks I be atm...
Peace...
The issue was the removal. It was removed, though, because its content violated forum rules. Yes, it is discussion of moderation, so we're going to just leave it there.
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Yeah, this is bad behavior that shouldn't be rewarded. I will do the same. Not interested in the things I enjoy using randomly broken. No salt, just better things to spend my money on.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Now with the unpleasantness out of the way, I don't see the changes being as bad as people are talking about and I strongly disagree with folks who think Hull Image Refractors is useless now. You're still able to essentially double the hull of your current ship, which is nothing to sneeze at. The only thing that changed is you can't take an escort with say 70k hull and push it to over 250k or something like that now. Taking a ship from 100k to 200k hull thanks to that console is a significant boost still. Folks may not care much for it on the DPS side of things, but it still has value as a tank console.
With the Neutronic Eddies, Agony Redistributor, and Tholian Webspinner, I've used those consoles myself and I'm honestly surprised it took them this long to see some kind of change. While they were fun to use and fantastic consoles, they were becoming THE answer if you wanted to utilize certain builds. They didn't get to the point that the embassy plasma exploders or plasmonic leech did, but they still needed some adjustment. We can debate whether or not they've been over-nerfed or what have you, but it's not healthy for a game when items become THE answer in all cases.
When it comes to those items being nerfed, yes it sucks, but in the ToS they make clear that we could see adjustments or changes at any time. Yes it sucks if you paid money to get your hands on an item, but just like the kemocite deal before this, if an item is overpowered, they're going to nerf it for the health of the game. If people chose to buy the items out of the cstore or what have you, that is a choice you as a buyer made and is not Cryptic's fault. If you're someone who used the items, yes it sucks. I'm not fond of the changes to Hull Image Refractors, Tholian Webspinner or Agony Redistributor, but it happens. It means I now need to find different items to use. Cryptic never forced anyone to buy those items, people chose to buy those items.
I used to play alot of Magic the Gathering quite a bit years ago. When there were significantly powerful decks that became THE deck to play, bans for certain cards were issued for the health of the game. If you go to a tournament with 100 people, and 95 out of the 100 people there are playing the exact same deck, it's going to get old quick. If you buy into that deck while it's in the OP state, that is a decision you made as a player knowing the risk of the deck getting hit. If/when the deck gets hit a year or so down the road, or even a few months, you are not owed a refund for that. You chose to invest knowing the risk of the deck getting hit. I've had it happen in Magic, I've had it happen her in STO. It sucks every time it happens, but you move on. If you want to take a break for awhile or choose not to buy anything else, that's your choice to make as a player. I'm a strong proponent of voting with one's wallet. The fact that items can get nerfed and hit is why I advocate people not locking themselves strictly into one specific style of build. Such as don't lock yourself exclusively into disruptor energy DPS to the point you don't know how to do anything else. Diversify your builds.
When an item does high amounts of damage, that's not a bad thing by itself. When it starts to become THE answer like some of those items were doing, it's time for an adjustment. Again folks aren't required to like it, but it's going to happen from time to time.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
why would you expect a refund on the risian ship? it was a giveaway summer ship. stuff happens. if they nerf sci down so it's not worth doing (again) so be it. early in this games history, you hit someone with viral matris, gw and or a drain, then float over and wipe the system with the carcass. then they nerfed sci BADLY. to the point it was not worth flying. I knew this was coming because they released far too much EPG stuff
People who take this month's flavor of build too seriously might get very upset if their escort is no longer the DPS king, especially if they spent 900 million EC and 30,000 zen buying this month's ship traits, consoles, captain traits, boff skill manuals, etc.
I do agree that nerfs and the rare level increases like 60 -> 65 can be annoying if you've settled into a build and have no interest in changing it, but changes are part of MMO life.
Thu 15 Sep 2022 09:00:00 AM PDT - https://arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11526143-balance-changes%3A-general-direction
Excerpt:
SWTOR did that intentionally back in 2012, it was fun heading to a social area to infect people -- https://swtor-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Rakghoul_Pandemic
I think there was a thing in WoW about that, and it also happened in TOR.
However... the way you describe solving the issue still revolves around the Developer making that counter for players to find, while you kinda make it sound like "let the players solve it themselves".
As Darkblade said earlier, when something becomes the MUST HAVE, GO TO item that EVERYONE MUST HAVE to do anything... that's a problem, because if everyone is using it and refusing to use anything else... what's the point?
I had a fleetmate who was absolutely ADAMANT that no ship could beat the Temporal Multi-Mission Science Vessel for a megawell build. Of course he's also an old WoW veteran who takes his MMOs a bit more seriously. If its not Best in Slot, its not worth even trying it. Yet we have other ships that can pull the Megawell just fine.
I guess what I'm trying to add to Darkblade's explanation is that Best in Slot isn't always Best for Game. If everyone is running around in cookie cutter builds, there's no diversity. If everyone is flying the exact same build in the exact same ship... what's the point of doing anything? What's the point of experimenting with new things that come out if its not Best in Slot?
STO is a game that allows for extreme, viable diversity. You can have Tetryon builds competing with Phaser builds competing with Disruptor builds... and builds on so many different ships...
But when you have something that overpowers that diversity, something that basically demands one particular playstyle above all else... it takes away the fun that STO allows with its diversity.
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colored text = mod mode
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"