World of Warcraft, Corrupted Blood plague from Zul'gurub. The devs never considered what would happen if players took the debuff with them *OUT* of the raid.
Although it did spawn something interesting, although unintended, which I believe helped medical people study how pandemics spread in a "controlled" environment. And TOR actually has a whole EVENT around the Rakghul Plague.
Nerfing things has ben the fallback for MMO evelopers for years. Rather than nerfing skills or items, why not create new skills or items that counter any seemingly overpowered aspects they may have? The research and development aspect of the game could be used to originate these counters. That way if one group doesn't like how powerful a skill or item lets another group be, they can choose to fabricate the elements needed to counter them. The ends would be the same, but the means would be through gameplay rather than just an arbitrary nerf that removes the very reason the item or skill appealed to the player who worked/paid for it in the first place.
That only works when the 'problem' is pvp in nature, since it's players 'solving' a problem caused by another player. PvP in STO is a bad joke under the best of circumstances. The suggestion that the devs would 'fix' these consoles now, after all this time, for PvP reasons is laughable.
I remember reading about a disease in another MMO that players could get infected with, and they in turn could infect other players. The result was an emergent pandemic in the game. The devs should have seen this as an opportunity to seed the game with reagents that players could experiment with to cvome up with a cure, and once discovered, while the disease could still be caught and spread, could be cured, adding another layer of engagement to the gameplay.
World of Warcraft, Corrupted Blood plague from Zul'gurub. The devs never considered what would happen if players took the debuff with them *OUT* of the raid.
That's because they weren't supposed to be able to take it out of the raid in the first place. Debuffs usually dropped when the fight ended or you left the instance. Oops.
That was a wild a zany time and one I hoped to never repeat until the SWToR devs decided to do it on purpose, ugh.
World of Warcraft, Corrupted Blood plague from Zul'gurub. The devs never considered what would happen if players took the debuff with them *OUT* of the raid.
Although it did spawn something interesting, although unintended, which I believe helped medical people study how pandemics spread in a "controlled" environment. And TOR actually has a whole EVENT around the Rakghul Plague.
And funnily enough, the behaviours exhibited there were mirrored in real life all through late 2019-present.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The only thing Cryptic did wrong is not fixing all of this stuff sooner. But that is part of their model. Release stuff that is obviously OP... then claim stupidity just long enough for the sell through. Then correct... so the next obviously OP bit of gear can replace it.
Having said that everyone on about the hull imager it got a massive BUFF. For PvE content. No more stacks means your temp hull never expires... it means you don't have to worry about the baby heals from things like Brace for Impact or hazard emitters filling up your temp hull spots. To top it off each heal refreshes the stack. So the Engi team you hit 2 min ago in say a warzone... is still in your temp pool as long as you keep popping at least one heal every 30s. Is it a nerf for the instant super hull PVP builds ya a bit... on the other hand you can stay cloaked in an enhanced cloak ship and heal yourself up to a 150k stack as well. In PvE land... just keep popping your heals and you will be running around with double hull... and get to keep it there as long as you pop one heal every 30s.
I'm sure the 20 stack removal helps with potential server lag induced by multiple people on a map having 20 stacks of ticking temp hull. 20 stacks tracking timers x multiple people on maps. Its simpler now. Anyway Slight nerf for PvP.... massive buff for that console in PvE.
If the Passives aren't nerfed seriously I have no problem if they correct the clickies so that spawns don't overfeed on each other. The problem I have is waiting years to do so.
My previous errors on Passive values brings up another point. If a Console is suppose to provide a fixed alteration then it should do so regardless of where you are. 22.9% is 22.9% is 22.9%. Calculating end results, yeah, that may be difficult in the 'wrong' environment, but fixed values are fixed values.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Nerfing things has ben the fallback for MMO evelopers for years. Rather than nerfing skills or items, why not create new skills or items that counter any seemingly overpowered aspects they may have? The research and development aspect of the game could be used to originate these counters. That way if one group doesn't like how powerful a skill or item lets another group be, they can choose to fabricate the elements needed to counter them. The ends would be the same, but the means would be through gameplay rather than just an arbitrary nerf that removes the very reason the item or skill appealed to the player who worked/paid for it in the first place.
I remember reading about a disease in another MMO that players could get infected with, and they in turn could infect other players. The result was an emergent pandemic in the game. The devs should have seen this as an opportunity to seed the game with reagents that players could experiment with to cvome up with a cure, and once discovered, while the disease could still be caught and spread, could be cured, adding another layer of engagement to the gameplay.
I generally prefer to buff other underperforming items when it's my own mods or content I've created for other games, but if it's one lone item causing the issues, then sometimes I will nerf just that one item so as I'm not having to do a ton of additional work just because of one item, especially if it's the only thing upsetting the balance I'm shooting for. Once again the problem in this instance is some of those consoles were getting to be THE answer in all cases and thus part of why we saw nerfs. No game lets stuff like that sit for long. With Magic the Gathering as the prime example I used before, if I go to a 100 man tournament and 95 of the 100 decks I encounter there are card for card the exact same thing, it's going to get old quick. It's not healthy for a game when that happens. Sometimes simply buffing a bunch of other stuff only makes things worse. Once again people are not entitled to keep something in a broken OP state at the expense of the game's health, even if they worked for it or not.
As to the disease you're referring to it was the Blood Plague incident in World of Warcraft years ago. As to why it was fixed is because it wasn't supposed to happen in the first place. People were never supposed to be able to take it outside the raid as all debuffs were supposed to fall off after the fight ended or when you left the instance. The problem in this instance is that a bug allowed the debuff to remain on Hunter pets even if said pet left the raid. There was also no level restrictions as to who could get said disease in game. Meaning a brand new player could walk into the city and drop over dead because they caught the disease in game. Thus halting all progress and potentially giving people the wrong idea about the game. Even if they wanted to do what you're talking about, how do you cure something if it kills in one tic before you could even use a cure? That's one instance where it just needed to be straight up fixed as there was nothing engaging about it at all save an annoyance preventing people from accessing certain critical areas for awhile. There's elements that are fun and engaging and elements that would just be tedious chores, and what you're describing would've been a tedious chore.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Well after playing around with the Tholian spinner and neutronic eddies— I don’t think I was significantly affected by the change. Granted I have less potential to create a crazy DPS build. But in my non-optimized builds the consoles were not doing crazy best-in-slot DPS for anyway.
For high-end EPG builds these consoles got seriously gutted. But a casual player just slotting it for a “fun” clicky (Not sure how fun the eddies are because it is hard to see after you fire it) really isn’t going to see a huge depreciation in their overall DPS.
The Agony redistributer change is a lot worse though, especially considering the price tag to get it.
Also, Darkblade’s comparison to MTG was interesting, but I think STO’s is way more user-friendly. Magic phases out their sets so quickly, it is mandatory to pay hundreds of dollars every few months to play in most public settings (casual games among friends are still cheap though). Sure you may not top the DPS league charts without a pricey meta build. But in STO barring some major nerf (like the current one), a five-year old build is as legal and effective today as it was five years ago. The DPS bar may have gone up, but there is no artificial mechanism that makes older ships and consoles unusable.
when an above average player can beat all content in a t3 or t4 ship, there is no use in crying or complaining as the game changes. As an EPG maven, I can play through everything without the gear mentioned in the thread. if a change makes something "not good" then find something else to change it.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
Well after playing around with the Tholian spinner and neutronic
eddies— I don’t think I was significantly affected by the change. Granted I have less potential to create a crazy DPS build. But in my non-optimized builds the consoles were not doing crazy best-in-slot DPS for anyway.
For high-end EPG builds these consoles got seriously gutted. But a casual player just slotting it for a “fun” clicky (Not sure how fun the eddies are because it is hard to see after you fire it) really isn’t going to see a huge depreciation in their overall DPS.
Well... maybe the Eddie console + Megawell = probably entertaining spin cycle.
And I only used the spinner on a Tetryon build. Combo's rather well with the Tarantula's Web Cannon. I can zap a group with the Web Spinner, trapping them, and they are still webbed long enough for me to fire the Web Cannon, which does have a charge up time. Pretty nasty in the right circumstances, but the combo is admittedly limited to Tholian ships, especially needing access to the Tarantula at least for the Web Cannon. I actually use my Web Cannon a bit more thanks to the Web Spinner. The Gantrithor gets some love! (yes I named my Tarantula after Tassadar's command ship in StarCraft.)
Comments
Although it did spawn something interesting, although unintended, which I believe helped medical people study how pandemics spread in a "controlled" environment. And TOR actually has a whole EVENT around the Rakghul Plague.
That's because they weren't supposed to be able to take it out of the raid in the first place. Debuffs usually dropped when the fight ended or you left the instance. Oops.
That was a wild a zany time and one I hoped to never repeat until the SWToR devs decided to do it on purpose, ugh.
And funnily enough, the behaviours exhibited there were mirrored in real life all through late 2019-present.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Having said that everyone on about the hull imager it got a massive BUFF. For PvE content. No more stacks means your temp hull never expires... it means you don't have to worry about the baby heals from things like Brace for Impact or hazard emitters filling up your temp hull spots. To top it off each heal refreshes the stack. So the Engi team you hit 2 min ago in say a warzone... is still in your temp pool as long as you keep popping at least one heal every 30s. Is it a nerf for the instant super hull PVP builds ya a bit... on the other hand you can stay cloaked in an enhanced cloak ship and heal yourself up to a 150k stack as well. In PvE land... just keep popping your heals and you will be running around with double hull... and get to keep it there as long as you pop one heal every 30s.
I'm sure the 20 stack removal helps with potential server lag induced by multiple people on a map having 20 stacks of ticking temp hull. 20 stacks tracking timers x multiple people on maps. Its simpler now. Anyway Slight nerf for PvP.... massive buff for that console in PvE.
My previous errors on Passive values brings up another point. If a Console is suppose to provide a fixed alteration then it should do so regardless of where you are. 22.9% is 22.9% is 22.9%. Calculating end results, yeah, that may be difficult in the 'wrong' environment, but fixed values are fixed values.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I generally prefer to buff other underperforming items when it's my own mods or content I've created for other games, but if it's one lone item causing the issues, then sometimes I will nerf just that one item so as I'm not having to do a ton of additional work just because of one item, especially if it's the only thing upsetting the balance I'm shooting for. Once again the problem in this instance is some of those consoles were getting to be THE answer in all cases and thus part of why we saw nerfs. No game lets stuff like that sit for long. With Magic the Gathering as the prime example I used before, if I go to a 100 man tournament and 95 of the 100 decks I encounter there are card for card the exact same thing, it's going to get old quick. It's not healthy for a game when that happens. Sometimes simply buffing a bunch of other stuff only makes things worse. Once again people are not entitled to keep something in a broken OP state at the expense of the game's health, even if they worked for it or not.
As to the disease you're referring to it was the Blood Plague incident in World of Warcraft years ago. As to why it was fixed is because it wasn't supposed to happen in the first place. People were never supposed to be able to take it outside the raid as all debuffs were supposed to fall off after the fight ended or when you left the instance. The problem in this instance is that a bug allowed the debuff to remain on Hunter pets even if said pet left the raid. There was also no level restrictions as to who could get said disease in game. Meaning a brand new player could walk into the city and drop over dead because they caught the disease in game. Thus halting all progress and potentially giving people the wrong idea about the game. Even if they wanted to do what you're talking about, how do you cure something if it kills in one tic before you could even use a cure? That's one instance where it just needed to be straight up fixed as there was nothing engaging about it at all save an annoyance preventing people from accessing certain critical areas for awhile. There's elements that are fun and engaging and elements that would just be tedious chores, and what you're describing would've been a tedious chore.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
eddies— I don’t think I was significantly affected by the change. Granted I have less potential to create a crazy DPS build. But in my non-optimized builds the consoles were not doing crazy best-in-slot DPS for anyway.
For high-end EPG builds these consoles got seriously gutted. But a casual player just slotting it for a “fun” clicky (Not sure how fun the eddies are because it is hard to see after you fire it) really isn’t going to see a huge depreciation in their overall DPS.
The Agony redistributer change is a lot worse though, especially considering the price tag to get it.
Also, Darkblade’s comparison to MTG was interesting, but I think STO’s is way more user-friendly. Magic phases out their sets so quickly, it is mandatory to pay hundreds of dollars every few months to play in most public settings (casual games among friends are still cheap though). Sure you may not top the DPS league charts without a pricey meta build. But in STO barring some major nerf (like the current one), a five-year old build is as legal and effective today as it was five years ago. The DPS bar may have gone up, but there is no artificial mechanism that makes older ships and consoles unusable.
Well... maybe the Eddie console + Megawell = probably entertaining spin cycle.
And I only used the spinner on a Tetryon build. Combo's rather well with the Tarantula's Web Cannon. I can zap a group with the Web Spinner, trapping them, and they are still webbed long enough for me to fire the Web Cannon, which does have a charge up time. Pretty nasty in the right circumstances, but the combo is admittedly limited to Tholian ships, especially needing access to the Tarantula at least for the Web Cannon. I actually use my Web Cannon a bit more thanks to the Web Spinner. The Gantrithor gets some love! (yes I named my Tarantula after Tassadar's command ship in StarCraft.)