test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options

How to communicate on the forum without getting moderated?

124678

Comments

  • Options
    mirrorterranmirrorterran Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    When a comment like "I don't know why my previous post was deleted" is followed by "post deleted for discussing moderation" including the part that was relevant to the topic at hand things are a bit heavy handed. Just delete the offending comment which wasn't offensive to begin with.

    If the offending comment wasn't offensive to begin with, then it would not have been moderated. If it was moderated, then it follows that the comment was offensive. If you can't be bothered to edit yourself to be non-offensive, why does it become my responsibility to edit you, so that your comment can be read without offense?

    Just so we are on the same page....I made an angry comment that wasn't directed at any specific person that was removed. I made a casual comment about "not sure why the comment was removed" and then addressed the topic. That entire comment was also removed. This is what I am referring to as heavy handed. I would have appreciated it if my comment on the subject matter had at least been left.

    Sorry I missed this comment earlier. I just looked into this particular issue and I would have to say that I'd have handled this differently, but like I said, we can make mistakes, too.

    Thank you. Your work here is invaluable.
  • Options
    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,550 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Assuming of course that Kael responds with anything other than an explanation of why he's too busy to deal with it.

    To add to this, it is also essentially a given that nothing will come of it even if he did.

    What exactly would you like to see come of it? We are spoken to when someone reports us to Kael.

    i mean, this convo has been nice to see take place, but look who has been absent...

    Except THIS conversation has really been about how moderators are doing the job and how best not to get moderated in the first place, so that members CAN complain without censure. So, why would Kael necessarily need to be present for this? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you just want to find fault.

    you are wrong. unless he has taken leave from his position, is he not part of the community here? can he also not, and has done, such as you, moderate, close threads, and send out notes to people?

    Ok. Yes, he is part of the community. Yes, he can and has moderated threads. But it's not his primary job, because he has other more pressing things to do, hence why that responsibility is delegated to moderators. So, I say again that this conversation has been about moderators, because the OP was definitely alluding to moderator actions and not the community manager.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • Options
    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,550 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    What exactly would you like to see come of it? We are spoken to when someone reports us to Kael.

    More than just a nice chat. The repeat offender should have been removed as a moderator a long time ago in my opinion.

    Some have said the same about me.

    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Assuming of course that Kael responds with anything other than an explanation of why he's too busy to deal with it.

    And why assume that he doesn't say anything to us behind the scenes when someone reports something to him?


    westmetals wrote: »
    I have, in the past, accused Cryptic of missing opportunities to meet us in the middle and extend an olive branch. The problem is that nobody on the community side seems to be moving towards the middle with olive branches of their own. So that is what I am doing. By choice. Cryptic knows my past hostilities, as this community does. I've been a part of this community for as long as there has been a community to be a part of.

    Because - as I pointed out in the other thread, although (above) one of the mods labeled my comment a "personal issue" -

    We're often ignored when we are civil. So it fades into the background.
    westmetals wrote: »
    I see a lot of threads get nuked for "Cryptic Bashing" Or complaining about things.
    But I gotta ask, how are players supposed to let the company/devs/whoever is in a position to actually listen and make changes know that people are unhappy, if there is nothing but censors, deletions and whatever else?

    And if someone tells me, go write a support ticket. Those are largely ignored. Entirely. So how does one actually go about letting cryptic be aware, that an individual, or even a community/segment of a community is unhappy?

    I have to admit that at first glance, I considered locking this thread for discussion of moderation. But then I read it again, and read it a third time, as I often do with seemingly "difficult" topics, and determined that this appears to be more of a sincere concern about how to communicate feedback when one is displeased.

    We literally have a thread in this subforum addressing that very thing:

    https://account.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1264896/a-reminder-on-how-to-have-a-discussion/p1

    ...

    Just to point out, I think it's very misleading and disingenuous to point to that thread as an example.

    And I disagree, because it's coming from the host, who is telling you how to behave in his house. This thread's question was about how best to communicate. That opening post says exactly how to communicate and how the host wants you to behave when engaging here with them and each other. Your personal issue aside, there's nothing misleading about it.

    My point being that later on the same page, it was pointed out that in the past, players who have followed those suggestions have been routinely ignored. Nothing was said or done to refute that, except for (after things got heated) Kael giving a reason why the one specific post being used as an example was missed. And a follow-up question on how to avoid that was also ignored.

    If following the "how best to communicate" instructions results in silence, then it's actually not the "how best to communicate". It's a set of instructions that don't work.

    And pointing to those instructions, is then misleading, because following them doesn't actually achieve the desired goal.

    So you assume. I believe that you're conflating two different ideas. Posting here on the forum allows members to communicate their thoughts to the devs and each other. The devs prefer that you do this civilly. Nowhere are you guaranteed a response from a dev, but you have achieved your desired goal in communicating your thoughts to them. If you're expecting or demanding a response from a dev, then I'm afraid more likely than not, you will be disappointed most of the time, because they are actually very busy with developing and managing the game.

    HOWEVER, in the precise case I am referring to, the communication I was trying to initiate was a series of questions about the desired operation of a new game feature, which was never adequately explained. Literally there's not enough documentation for a player to determine if its observed behavior is as designed or bugged. So a response from the devs (or Kael on their behalf) was necessary to resolve the problem.

    (The only "responses" I got in the meantime, which were mainly from one player, were simple hostility at my "impatience" in asking.... not actually on-topic.)

    And after several weeks and multiple threads... the only "response" given was "this is why I didn't answer before". And nothing else. And a question on how to make SURE the questions got through was ignored as well.

    We are now at 7 months and 23 days since I originally asked and there's STILL been no answer or update to documentation or anything.

    That's my point. You are directing us to instructions on "how to communicate" that don't result in communication.

    But they do result in communication that doesn't get you moderated, which is the point and topic of THIS thread. I'm not going to further derail this thread to debate you about precise cases and your personal issue with Kael not answering you in another thread. Because let's face it, the topic of THAT thread was "how to have a discussion," and you basically attempted to hijack and derail it by trying to get an answer to your issue.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • Options
    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,550 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    What exactly would you like to see come of it? We are spoken to when someone reports us to Kael.

    More than just a nice chat. The repeat offender should have been removed as a moderator a long time ago in my opinion.

    Some have said the same about me.

    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Assuming of course that Kael responds with anything other than an explanation of why he's too busy to deal with it.

    And why assume that he doesn't say anything to us behind the scenes when someone reports something to him?


    westmetals wrote: »
    I have, in the past, accused Cryptic of missing opportunities to meet us in the middle and extend an olive branch. The problem is that nobody on the community side seems to be moving towards the middle with olive branches of their own. So that is what I am doing. By choice. Cryptic knows my past hostilities, as this community does. I've been a part of this community for as long as there has been a community to be a part of.

    Because - as I pointed out in the other thread, although (above) one of the mods labeled my comment a "personal issue" -

    We're often ignored when we are civil. So it fades into the background.
    westmetals wrote: »
    I see a lot of threads get nuked for "Cryptic Bashing" Or complaining about things.
    But I gotta ask, how are players supposed to let the company/devs/whoever is in a position to actually listen and make changes know that people are unhappy, if there is nothing but censors, deletions and whatever else?

    And if someone tells me, go write a support ticket. Those are largely ignored. Entirely. So how does one actually go about letting cryptic be aware, that an individual, or even a community/segment of a community is unhappy?

    I have to admit that at first glance, I considered locking this thread for discussion of moderation. But then I read it again, and read it a third time, as I often do with seemingly "difficult" topics, and determined that this appears to be more of a sincere concern about how to communicate feedback when one is displeased.

    We literally have a thread in this subforum addressing that very thing:

    https://account.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1264896/a-reminder-on-how-to-have-a-discussion/p1

    ...

    Just to point out, I think it's very misleading and disingenuous to point to that thread as an example.

    And I disagree, because it's coming from the host, who is telling you how to behave in his house. This thread's question was about how best to communicate. That opening post says exactly how to communicate and how the host wants you to behave when engaging here with them and each other. Your personal issue aside, there's nothing misleading about it.

    My point being that later on the same page, it was pointed out that in the past, players who have followed those suggestions have been routinely ignored. Nothing was said or done to refute that, except for (after things got heated) Kael giving a reason why the one specific post being used as an example was missed. And a follow-up question on how to avoid that was also ignored.

    If following the "how best to communicate" instructions results in silence, then it's actually not the "how best to communicate". It's a set of instructions that don't work.

    And pointing to those instructions, is then misleading, because following them doesn't actually achieve the desired goal.

    So you assume. I believe that you're conflating two different ideas. Posting here on the forum allows members to communicate their thoughts to the devs and each other. The devs prefer that you do this civilly. Nowhere are you guaranteed a response from a dev, but you have achieved your desired goal in communicating your thoughts to them. If you're expecting or demanding a response from a dev, then I'm afraid more likely than not, you will be disappointed most of the time, because they are actually very busy with developing and managing the game.

    HOWEVER, in the precise case I am referring to, the communication I was trying to initiate was a series of questions about the desired operation of a new game feature, which was never adequately explained. Literally there's not enough documentation for a player to determine if its observed behavior is as designed or bugged. So a response from the devs (or Kael on their behalf) was necessary to resolve the problem.

    (The only "responses" I got in the meantime, which were mainly from one player, were simple hostility at my "impatience" in asking.... not actually on-topic.)

    And after several weeks and multiple threads... the only "response" given was "this is why I didn't answer before". And nothing else. And a question on how to make SURE the questions got through was ignored as well.

    We are now at 7 months and 23 days since I originally asked and there's STILL been no answer or update to documentation or anything.

    That's my point. You are directing us to instructions on "how to communicate" that don't result in communication.

    But they do result in communication that doesn't get you moderated, which is the point and topic of THIS thread. I'm not going to further derail this thread to debate you about precise cases and your personal issue with Kael not answering you in another thread. Because let's face it, the topic of THAT thread was "how to have a discussion," and you basically attempted to hijack and derail it by trying to get an answer to your issue.

    Well, BMR, I too feel that Bilateral interaction is necessary for STO, or any MMO to become the best it can be. To be clear, an MMO cannot be developed in a committee. But neither can it be developed entirely in a vacuum. The new direction I have taken is in the spirit of seeing bilateral interaction between the team and the community at some point. I must agree that the better part of a year passing by without a legitimate concern being addressed does not speak well in terms of communication. In fact, it feels like shouting against a gale. It's not very encouraging.

    I'm not disagreeing that communication should be bilateral. I would prefer that the devs were more active here as well. Hell, I can communicate directly with a dev on a daily basis, and I can still get frustrated with not being able to get answers sometimes. But I'm also mature enough to know that I can't always get what I want, and that sometimes "now" isn't the best time. And I accept that.

    Obviously, some of the devs shy away from here because of the atmosphere. You want that to change, change the atmosphere. You, personally, have acknowledged a need for that and have decided to make a change for yourself. I applaud that. I wish we had more of it, because I believe it truly could make a difference.

    But the point of THIS thread, at it's root, has been how best to communicate one's displeasure without getting moderated by the forum moderators. Not about the devs communicating back. For my part, I've tried to communicate how I do my job, so that you can avoid getting moderated by me, anyway. And for me, it's very simple: be kind, be courteous, and follow the rules.

    You want to communicate with a dev? You can't very well get your message across if your thread/post gets locked/deleted, because you were rude, insulting, and breaking forum rules. So, first step is: avoid getting moderated.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • Options
    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,550 Community Moderator
    westmetals wrote: »

    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    Assuming of course that Kael responds with anything other than an explanation of why he's too busy to deal with it.

    And why assume that he doesn't say anything to us behind the scenes when someone reports something to him?


    westmetals wrote: »
    I have, in the past, accused Cryptic of missing opportunities to meet us in the middle and extend an olive branch. The problem is that nobody on the community side seems to be moving towards the middle with olive branches of their own. So that is what I am doing. By choice. Cryptic knows my past hostilities, as this community does. I've been a part of this community for as long as there has been a community to be a part of.

    Because - as I pointed out in the other thread, although (above) one of the mods labeled my comment a "personal issue" -

    We're often ignored when we are civil. So it fades into the background.
    westmetals wrote: »
    I see a lot of threads get nuked for "Cryptic Bashing" Or complaining about things.
    But I gotta ask, how are players supposed to let the company/devs/whoever is in a position to actually listen and make changes know that people are unhappy, if there is nothing but censors, deletions and whatever else?

    And if someone tells me, go write a support ticket. Those are largely ignored. Entirely. So how does one actually go about letting cryptic be aware, that an individual, or even a community/segment of a community is unhappy?

    I have to admit that at first glance, I considered locking this thread for discussion of moderation. But then I read it again, and read it a third time, as I often do with seemingly "difficult" topics, and determined that this appears to be more of a sincere concern about how to communicate feedback when one is displeased.

    We literally have a thread in this subforum addressing that very thing:

    https://account.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1264896/a-reminder-on-how-to-have-a-discussion/p1

    ...

    Just to point out, I think it's very misleading and disingenuous to point to that thread as an example.

    And I disagree, because it's coming from the host, who is telling you how to behave in his house. This thread's question was about how best to communicate. That opening post says exactly how to communicate and how the host wants you to behave when engaging here with them and each other. Your personal issue aside, there's nothing misleading about it.

    My point being that later on the same page, it was pointed out that in the past, players who have followed those suggestions have been routinely ignored. Nothing was said or done to refute that, except for (after things got heated) Kael giving a reason why the one specific post being used as an example was missed. And a follow-up question on how to avoid that was also ignored.

    If following the "how best to communicate" instructions results in silence, then it's actually not the "how best to communicate". It's a set of instructions that don't work.

    And pointing to those instructions, is then misleading, because following them doesn't actually achieve the desired goal.

    So you assume. I believe that you're conflating two different ideas. Posting here on the forum allows members to communicate their thoughts to the devs and each other. The devs prefer that you do this civilly. Nowhere are you guaranteed a response from a dev, but you have achieved your desired goal in communicating your thoughts to them. If you're expecting or demanding a response from a dev, then I'm afraid more likely than not, you will be disappointed most of the time, because they are actually very busy with developing and managing the game.

    HOWEVER, in the precise case I am referring to, the communication I was trying to initiate was a series of questions about the desired operation of a new game feature, which was never adequately explained. Literally there's not enough documentation for a player to determine if its observed behavior is as designed or bugged. So a response from the devs (or Kael on their behalf) was necessary to resolve the problem.

    (The only "responses" I got in the meantime, which were mainly from one player, were simple hostility at my "impatience" in asking.... not actually on-topic.)

    And after several weeks and multiple threads... the only "response" given was "this is why I didn't answer before". And nothing else. And a question on how to make SURE the questions got through was ignored as well.

    We are now at 7 months and 23 days since I originally asked and there's STILL been no answer or update to documentation or anything.

    That's my point. You are directing us to instructions on "how to communicate" that don't result in communication.

    But they do result in communication that doesn't get you moderated, which is the point and topic of THIS thread. I'm not going to further derail this thread to debate you about precise cases and your personal issue with Kael not answering you in another thread. Because let's face it, the topic of THAT thread was "how to have a discussion," and you basically attempted to hijack and derail it by trying to get an answer to your issue.

    It's not MY issue, it is quite literally an issue that affects every single player in the game. But whatever. I guess you have decided to join Chive's team and bully me into silence.

    "But they do result in communication that doesn't get you moderated," Yes... one sided communication. Which doesn't resolve the issue when the issue needs it to be two-sided.

    AND by the way... I wasn't derailing. I was quite literally asking how to have the discussion he was talking about. If you're going to set forth standards of behavior for that conversation, fine... when and where is the conversation itself?

    Look here, buddy. Don't go accusing me of "bullying," because I called you out on your behavior. Now, if I have to, I'll find an answer to your question.

    And by the way, I'm the moderator. I'm the arbiter who decides whether a thread has been hijacked/derailed. Not you.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • Options
    theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    In following this thread, and being someone who looks for solutions, I have of some of questions/observations.

    Who writes the Forum Rules? I'm not asking for specific names or anything of that nature, but is it a collaborative effort between departments, who has the final say, is the answer a tightly kept secret, etc... I ask because if the Forum Mods are not involved then the rest of us are addressing the wrong group.

    If we are going to claim that bilateral communication is a two-way operation, then would it not be consistent that our (the Not Mods) concepts of civil discourse also be taken into account on a basis that is more than a mere exception?

    There are sections in this next observation to which I believe someone will take offense. That is not my intention and perhaps it is a failing on my part that I can't think of another way to express it. Indeed, the disclaimer I just wrote is a fine example. I'm trying to give us all a tool to use here in the hopes of better understanding some distinctions in the way we communicate, as well.

    I believe there are a good number of us Forum Users who would like to discuss these concerns in an adult manner rather than in a mature manner. Here's some examples:

    1. "Hey, Joey, don't take this the wrong way, and I certainly don't mean to offend, but that shirt looks like one of Elton John's stage costumes took a tropical vacation and the hotel ran out of toilet paper."

    2. "Hey, Joey, nice shirt! You lose a bet?"

    In the first example we have a mature conversational gambit that is over burdened with disclaimers and it takes up too much of our time for the purpose it is meant to serve.

    Meanwhile the second example is an adult conversational gambit that gets the point across in a far more efficient manner.

    And, no, I don't mean the unrestrained use of profanity and insults. I'm talking about being able to efficiently and accurately describe a concern to those that may have the ability to address said concern. Even if in doing so the word, "sucks," (to exert negative air pressure) or the word, "TRIBBLE," (the human backside what expels assorted excreta), are thrown into the mix to express in no uncertain term the level of disappointment the player may feel at the time.

    If it were me, I'd far prefer to have a passionate player base than an indifferent one, even if I have to deal with being called a dickhead (the male reproductive wand, but it's attached to the cranium).

    My bizarre sense of humor notwithstanding, I sincerely hope that I was able to get my point across without insult.

    Cheers!



  • Options
    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,550 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    Some have said the same about me.

    Hence, my point that nothing every comes of it if reports are made to Kael. I personally am not talking about one or two isolated incidents. There has been a very predictable, very systemic pattern of poor behavior and overstepping of bounds over the years. Absolutely nothing has changed and absolutely nothing ever will.
    Obviously, some of the devs shy away from here because of the atmosphere. You want that to change, change the atmosphere.

    They do remember we are the customers helping to keep them employed, right? This door swings both ways.

    Quite honestly, I think the overall point is being lost and/or totally ignored by hiding behind "these are the rules here" and that may very well be the goal.

    @sirsitsalot is spot on - longstanding, legitimate concerns not being addressed does not speak well in terms of communication. That feeling like shouting against a gale is absolutely right.

    If you're referring to something in particular, I'm afraid that I'm unaware of it. I had been gone for awhile and I apologize to the community for that.

    Yes, they are aware of that. I honestly believe that they'd like to come here more, but as Kael once said, it's hard to get up the wherewithal to wade into a bunch of flame posts, which is unfortunately how they perceive this forum. If that were to change, though, then I believe you'd see them here more often.


    I'm not disagreeing that communication should be bilateral. I would prefer that the devs were more active here as well. Hell, I can communicate directly with a dev on a daily basis, and I can still get frustrated with not being able to get answers sometimes. But I'm also mature enough to know that I can't always get what I want, and that sometimes "now" isn't the best time. And I accept that.

    Obviously, some of the devs shy away from here because of the atmosphere. You want that to change, change the atmosphere. You, personally, have acknowledged a need for that and have decided to make a change for yourself. I applaud that. I wish we had more of it, because I believe it truly could make a difference.

    As you just got done saying, you're a moderator. I think you want to keep being a moderator. And I think you know that if you were to start rocking the boat with any kind of fervor, you would likely find yourself stripped of that privilege. So no matter how upset you may personally get over not getting answers or seeing your own concerns addressed, you are mature enough to bite your tongue and keep soldiering on.

    I have talked about perception in the past. What people perceive defines the truths they know, until they perceive something differently and accept new truths. Or make a conscious decision to change direction after looking at themselves, whichb is what I have done.

    I can understand that the developers are too busy to personally come in here and just shoot the breeze with us. But the PERCEPTION here is that they do not have the time to take bug reports and legitimate concerns from the community to hart and do something about it. When reports or inquiries are made and they don't even get acknowledged, let alone addressed, for over 8 MONTHS, this feeds the PERCEPTION that the dev team does not care, even if they do.

    I said in another thread that if they cannot communicate us words, they can communicate with actions. And when we go months and months without seeing actions, what does logic tell you that the community is going to perceive. Lack of communication AND lack of action adds fuel to the fire. And the negative energy increases.
    But the point of THIS thread, at it's root, has been how best to communicate one's displeasure without getting moderated by the forum moderators. Not about the devs communicating back. For my part, I've tried to communicate how I do my job, so that you can avoid getting moderated by me, anyway. And for me, it's very simple: be kind, be courteous, and follow the rules.

    You want to communicate with a dev? You can't very well get your message across if your thread/post gets locked/deleted, because you were rude, insulting, and breaking forum rules. So, first step is: avoid getting moderated.

    Fair enough. I just wanted to offer some clarity on what I am perceiving as a root problem and flashpoint for a lot of the forum fires that you guys have to put out. See we don't just want to be able to talk to a dev. We want to be able to have some reasonable assurances that our concerns will be addressed.

    Even if every single person here decides for themselves to take a similar path as I have chosen to take, if following the guidelines in the "How to have a discussion" post doesn't result in bilateral communication, OR actual actions taken to address the issues we raise, then it is an exercise in futility, and will only serve to add to the frustration, and nothing will change.

    At the time of this writing, my signature reads "There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle. I am declaring my intent to spearhead an effort to meet in the middle. The question is, Is Cryptic willing to do the same? This "Us against Them" attitude needs to stop. And it will stop when both parties decide that enough is enough.

    There should be a symbiotic relationship between Cryptic and the community. From my chair, the best possible game STO can possibly be will come about when we have a dev team that genuinely has its finger on the pulse of the community they expect to consume their product. This cannot happen unless bilateral interaction occurs. Even if our interaction is to give voice to concerns or concepts that might improve things and Cryptic's interaction is to produce the results to that effect.

    We are all in this together, and yet we are divided against each other. Nothing productive can come of that status quo. If we are in this together, then we need to be able to strive together for the common good of us all. What is past is past. But we can begin building a better future right here in the present.

    So yes. I am going to be a self-proclaimed ambassador for this community. I'll step aside if someone more qualified comes along. But someone has to take the first step towards more than a band-aid solution to this arterial problem.

    Following the guidelines of How to have a discussion may prevent threads from being moderated or locked. But the concept of a discussion calls for bilateral interaction. When that does not occur after months and months, no discussion ever happened, and whatever was put out there is just floating around in the ether serving no purpose.

    I want to see positive change, so I am putting forth the effort to be part of that change. But this community is not all that needs to change. Cryptic needs to be a part of it as well, or there can be no change. I'd like to see where STO could go if we were all on the same page, rather than fractured the way we are now.

    I hear what you're saying, and I agree with most of it. Unfortunately the onus of changing the atmosphere and the dialogue of this forum is on the users. Once that is done, the devs are more likely to return, but not before then.

    westmetals wrote: »


    You want to communicate with a dev? You can't very well get your message across if your thread/post gets locked/deleted, because you were rude, insulting, and breaking forum rules. So, first step is: avoid getting moderated.

    Except that's not up to us.

    Literally. Because I'm talking about threads that were moderated because of other players who were "were rude, insulting, and breaking forum rules" toward me. Which I could not avoid, even after literally telling them to back off multiple times.

    Except, it literally is. You just stated "other players" got the thread moderated. Their behavior needs to change as well. None of this is directed specifically at you. It's for everyone here. No, you can't control what other people do, but you can report them instead of sparring with them, and let one of us deal with them.

    And no, I'm not deciding the purpose of your posts, but I am judging your behavior.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • Options
    theboxisredtheboxisred Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    In following this thread, and being someone who looks for solutions, I have of some of questions/observations.

    Who writes the Forum Rules? I'm not asking for specific names or anything of that nature, but is it a collaborative effort between departments, who has the final say, is the answer a tightly kept secret, etc... I ask because if the Forum Mods are not involved then the rest of us are addressing the wrong group.

    If we are going to claim that bilateral communication is a two-way operation, then would it not be consistent that our (the Not Mods) concepts of civil discourse also be taken into account on a basis that is more than a mere exception?

    There are sections in this next observation to which I believe someone will take offense. That is not my intention and perhaps it is a failing on my part that I can't think of another way to express it. Indeed, the disclaimer I just wrote is a fine example. I'm trying to give us all a tool to use here in the hopes of better understanding some distinctions in the way we communicate, as well.

    I believe there are a good number of us Forum Users who would like to discuss these concerns in an adult manner rather than in a mature manner. Here's some examples:

    1. "Hey, Joey, don't take this the wrong way, and I certainly don't mean to offend, but that shirt looks like one of Elton John's stage costumes took a tropical vacation and the hotel ran out of toilet paper."

    2. "Hey, Joey, nice shirt! You lose a bet?"

    In the first example we have a mature conversational gambit that is over burdened with disclaimers and it takes up too much of our time for the purpose it is meant to serve.

    Meanwhile the second example is an adult conversational gambit that gets the point across in a far more efficient manner.

    And, no, I don't mean the unrestrained use of profanity and insults. I'm talking about being able to efficiently and accurately describe a concern to those that may have the ability to address said concern. Even if in doing so the word, "sucks," (to exert negative air pressure) or the word, "TRIBBLE," (the human backside what expels assorted excreta), are thrown into the mix to express in no uncertain term the level of disappointment the player may feel at the time.

    If it were me, I'd far prefer to have a passionate player base than an indifferent one, even if I have to deal with being called a dickhead (the male reproductive wand, but it's attached to the cranium).

    My bizarre sense of humor notwithstanding, I sincerely hope that I was able to get my point across without insult.

    Cheers!



    I think that an adult conversation can be had while maintaining a level of decorum. Saying that something sucks backside, while pointed, can also be communicated by saying "I don't like this" and the following with an explanation of "why." Throwing out slang is not adult. Especially in typed communication. We set there, thinking about what we're going to type before we type it, which means we are in complete control of the narrative. It's an advantage over verbal communication, where it's easy to just let words tumble out of our mouth, unfiltered.

    Me personally, I end to take people more seriously when their communication is not laced with epithets.

    I understand, and I'm certainly open to alternate takes on the concept, especially when they are presented well.

    But allow me to pose the following scenario to better illustrate my point;

    Were you to express to someone the highest level of pain which of the following terms would you use to achieve that goal?

    "That hurts."

    "That really hurts!"

    "That Really profanicating hurts!"

    Plus, which of those would be the most accurate?

    I know you and I have more than those three options available to us, but not everyone does. Just look at how many people say/type, "would of," or, "based off of." That is, though, why I do not advocate for the arbitrary and gratuitous use of profanity, just that we don't discard the idea one is trying to communicate simply because profanity was used, especially when there are far better reasons to reject an idea.

    Epithets can be another matter entirely, depending on the context.

    Thanks for the observation, though. I firmly believe that an idea cannot improve unless it is challenged.

    Cheers!
  • Options
    roninwolf1981#2968 roninwolf1981 Member Posts: 589 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The problem with the "Boot Camp" comparison is that is military training. Not a public forum. Drill Sergeants are basically breaking recruits down to improve them, adding pressure to the training to help recruits better deal with the stress of the battlefield. Also note that Drill Sergants are authority figures. Person A on the forums does not hold such authority sitting behind a keyboard.

    There is no such battlefield conditions on a public forum.

    And again... there are ways to express yourself without devolving into attacks. And there is a difference between what I'll classify as normal "asking questions" and "Tucker Carlson asking questions". One is clearly requesting information, while the other is just a defense to hide behind to launch carefully worded attacks. We mods have to try and figure out if something is legit or an attack all the time. And when something basically encourages attacking the Devs for not doing something under the guise of "just asking questions"... that's a problem because it is NOT asking questions, its veiled attack encouragement.

    I could have closed this down due to discussion of moderation, like Baddmoon said. However as this was not questioning any particular action and came across as honest, I let it go and even tried to explain some reasoning as to recent activity. The fact we have some people in this thread trying to justify attacks as "expressing discontent" or "a way to make the devs improve" is a bit of a problem because the Devs don't frequent the forums, mostly because of the toxic attitude some show when they DO show up. So most of the attacks just bounce around the community itself and don't make their way to the Dev Office. It also shows a lack of respect if someone believes that screaming profanities and flames will improve the situation. Usually the result is either the exact opposite, or the situation devolves to the point we have to step in because of rule violations.

    If something is of concern and many players bring it up (preferably in a civil manner), we'll actually pass it up the chain. Information is important after all. But when its buried under rage posts... that's a problem because it will either obscure the actual issue or just result in "Why hasn't X been done nao?! I DEMAND THIS ISSUE BE LOOKED AT BECAUSE I SAY SO!" posts which provide NO usable information other than Person A is in rage mode over something. IMO the "my wallet is closed until X happens" statements also provide no usable information other than said individual is publically making a choice not to spend any money. That is fine and said individual's choice, but honestly... why do you need to annouce it to the internet?

    Your first 3 paragraphs; I could never have worded it as perfectly and as soundly as how you put it.
  • Options
    davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,566 Arc User
    In following this thread, and being someone who looks for solutions, I have of some of questions/observations.

    Who writes the Forum Rules? I'm not asking for specific names or anything of that nature, but is it a collaborative effort between departments, who has the final say, is the answer a tightly kept secret, etc... I ask because if the Forum Mods are not involved then the rest of us are addressing the wrong group.

    If we are going to claim that bilateral communication is a two-way operation, then would it not be consistent that our (the Not Mods) concepts of civil discourse also be taken into account on a basis that is more than a mere exception?

    There are sections in this next observation to which I believe someone will take offense. That is not my intention and perhaps it is a failing on my part that I can't think of another way to express it. Indeed, the disclaimer I just wrote is a fine example. I'm trying to give us all a tool to use here in the hopes of better understanding some distinctions in the way we communicate, as well.

    I believe there are a good number of us Forum Users who would like to discuss these concerns in an adult manner rather than in a mature manner. Here's some examples:

    1. "Hey, Joey, don't take this the wrong way, and I certainly don't mean to offend, but that shirt looks like one of Elton John's stage costumes took a tropical vacation and the hotel ran out of toilet paper."

    2. "Hey, Joey, nice shirt! You lose a bet?"

    In the first example we have a mature conversational gambit that is over burdened with disclaimers and it takes up too much of our time for the purpose it is meant to serve.

    Meanwhile the second example is an adult conversational gambit that gets the point across in a far more efficient manner.

    And, no, I don't mean the unrestrained use of profanity and insults. I'm talking about being able to efficiently and accurately describe a concern to those that may have the ability to address said concern. Even if in doing so the word, "sucks," (to exert negative air pressure) or the word, "TRIBBLE," (the human backside what expels assorted excreta), are thrown into the mix to express in no uncertain term the level of disappointment the player may feel at the time.

    If it were me, I'd far prefer to have a passionate player base than an indifferent one, even if I have to deal with being called a dickhead (the male reproductive wand, but it's attached to the cranium).

    My bizarre sense of humor notwithstanding, I sincerely hope that I was able to get my point across without insult.

    Cheers!

    Hopefully Joey is a good friend or coworker, where you both understand each others' sense of humor. Both examples are insulting the person's fashion choice, and the "polite" one might be mistaken as homophobic by working "Elton John" into the insult.

    No, I'm not personally offended, triggered, whatever, but someone else might be, and you do not know the other forum members to the extent that you know your pal Joey. I hope you would not walk up to a stranger on the street and say "nice shirt! You lose a bet?"

    That's why I'm arguing you need to be careful. We can't see your expression or hear your tone of voice, and most of us don't know you well enough to translate in-jokes, personal slang, Some people are fine with rough and tumble arguments, some want milder discourse. Cryptic has apparently decided to err on the side of inclusiveness and set phasers to "mild."


  • Options
    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,233 Community Moderator
    westmetals wrote: »
    Please judge what you just said. When a player is literally trying to force another player to be quiet, you want the player who is being bullied to remain silent and wait for moderation? In other words, you are taking the side of the bully?

    There is such a thing as "too far gone to salvage". At which point, collateral damage is unavoidable. And it is interesting to note that a lot of that comes without people reporting things to mods so we can cut it off before it gets that far. By the time we DO hear about it on our own or stumble across it, it could be multiple pages of flame war. In which case... its a burning wreck and there's really no point in trying to redact every single post for multiple pages. Going by forum rules that could result in multiple bans too depending on just how bad it is.

    In which case... we may just go for the lesser of two evils and close the whole thing down. No one wants to go through multiple pages of post redacted - insert mod name here just to get to the next actual post that didn't break rules. Unfortunately that does mean innocent bystanders get caught in the crossfire when people take over a thread with an argument that goes too far.

    The report button exists for a reason. And we do follow up on reported posts. Most of the time I actually consult the other mods on what to do as well, as some cases aren't as clear cut, at least to me, as some make it out to be. We're not all knowing. We don't just appear every time there's something causing problems the second it starts. We either find it ourselves because we frequent certain areas of the forums more than others, or we get a report from other forum users. Part of us keeping the peace is getting reports for other forumites. We then judge the reported post to see if action is required per forum rules. Necromancy is pretty clear cut and I'll jump on those pretty fast when reported if I happen to be on and see those reports. But sometimes harassing material or flame/troll reports can actually have neuance to it where it turns out its not just the reported post, but part of a whole chain of events. So it could be as simple as a single post, in which case easy to deal with, or it could be just one link in a chain we have to investigate which could lead to more action than initially thought.

    Moderator isn't just "see problem, swat problem". Its a combination of peacekeeper and investigator. And just like the Police, we can't do anything unless we see it or get reports of it. So we are also reliant on everyone else knowing the forum rules and flagging posts that they feel violate said rules. In which case it is identified for us to investigate.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • Options
    wingedhussar#7584 wingedhussar Member Posts: 437 Community Moderator
    edited June 2022
    valoreah wrote: »
    I hear what you're saying, and I agree with most of it. Unfortunately the onus of changing the atmosphere and the dialogue of this forum is on the users. Once that is done, the devs are more likely to return, but not before then.

    All I can say in response to this is wow. Holding paying customers in such contempt speaks volumes about what kind of organization Cryptic is.

    smh

    The forum is a free (gratis) service provided at company expense. You are not unconditionally entitled to use it, nor do Cryptic's employees have any obligation to put up with abusive conduct. The end.
    latest?cb=20171202101458

    ...THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!
    Volunteer community moderator for the Star Trek Online forums. Not a Cryptic Studios or Perfect World employee.
  • Options
    wingedhussar#7584 wingedhussar Member Posts: 437 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    The forum is a free (gratis) service provided at company expense. You are not unconditionally entitled to use it. The end.

    Quite honestly, I am at a loss how you derived this from my post?

    I edited my post to clarify while you were responding to it. The upshot is that there's a point at which no amount of pay is worth putting up with verbal abuse from customers.
    latest?cb=20171202101458

    ...THEN THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!
    Volunteer community moderator for the Star Trek Online forums. Not a Cryptic Studios or Perfect World employee.
  • Options
    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,550 Community Moderator
    In following this thread, and being someone who looks for solutions, I have of some of questions/observations.

    Who writes the Forum Rules? I'm not asking for specific names or anything of that nature, but is it a collaborative effort between departments, who has the final say, is the answer a tightly kept secret, etc... I ask because if the Forum Mods are not involved then the rest of us are addressing the wrong group.

    If we are going to claim that bilateral communication is a two-way operation, then would it not be consistent that our (the Not Mods) concepts of civil discourse also be taken into account on a basis that is more than a mere exception?

    The current Terms of Service (ToS) were written by Gearbox. The forum rules as currently written were devised by PWE. The Frequently Created Threads (FCT) list was developed by the Cryptic Community Team in collaboration with the forum community. All 3 are used in governing the moderation of this forum.

    Well, bilateral, by definition, IS a two-way operation. But the rules governing civil discourse on this forum do not have to take into account what the forum users may/may not consider civil discourse. Some here have already stated that they believe insults are just fine during civil discourse. Cryptic disagrees. Their house. They get to decide what they find acceptable.


    westmetals wrote: »
    Please judge what you just said. When a player is literally trying to force another player to be quiet, you want the player who is being bullied to remain silent and wait for moderation? In other words, you are taking the side of the bully?

    And... isn't it against the rules to reopen a closed thread's topic? Because I specifically asked another mod about that back in November when this was going on and they repeatedly evaded giving me an answer.

    I did not say that you have to remain silent. But surely you can ignore the other person until moderation can happen, and not rise to their baiting you to engage in what would well become a flame war. In other words, you're an adult, right?

    Well, let me unequivocally answer that question for you: It is NOT against the rules to reopen a closed thread. Kael is the ultimate authority over the forum, and he can change/do what he wills, so anyone is welcome to plead their case to him about any forum issues. But since he is a very busy person and not always available in a pinch, you can plead your case to one of the moderators, who will investigate the situation. Personally, I will do this for anyone, even if I'm the one who closed the thread. I have no problem reversing my own decisions, if compelling evidence is offered up to me. That doesn't necessarily mean, though, that we will reopen a thread, even with compelling evidence. There could be other factors as to why we might not (i.e. said thread may have been closed due to a flame war and reopening might restart said flame war). But no, it's not against the rules, and you can most certainly ask.


    valoreah wrote: »
    I hear what you're saying, and I agree with most of it. Unfortunately the onus of changing the atmosphere and the dialogue of this forum is on the users. Once that is done, the devs are more likely to return, but not before then.

    All I can say in response to this is wow. Holding paying customers in such contempt speaks volumes about what kind of organization Cryptic is.

    smh

    Ok, first, know that this is just MY opinion and not representative of Cryptic and its views. We all know that the devs have shied away from the forum because of the perception of toxicity. I personally believe that if we, as the forum community, change the atmosphere here, then the devs are more likely to re-engage with us on the forum.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • Options
    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,550 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    I edited my post to clarify while you were responding to it. The upshot is that there's a point at which no amount of pay is worth putting up with verbal abuse from customers.

    To be brutally honest, I struggle to understand how any mature, grown adult is able to call typed words on an internet forum from people they will never meet in real life "abuse". It really is not a all difficult to just simply wade through any of the obvious noise and other nonsense in reading a thread to get to the gist of the issue. That noise is also very easy to simply ignore.

    I guess I just come from a different generation. I have had to deal with many an irate customer in person and/or via phone over the years who have said things far, far, far worse than anything ever typed here. I never had a forum police to come silence them. I always keep in mind that they are a customer and they are obviously frustrated with something. For that, I give them the benefit of the doubt and help as best I can because they are a customer. I would never ignore them or tell them they had to be nice to me before I would engage with them. I know there are other businesses out there that would love to take their money if I did not take care of them.

    I suppose from here on out, we can send flowers and bake cookies and draw pretty pictures of rainbows with unicorns prancing on them sprinkling magic fairy dust and ask pretty, pretty please to have the developers take a look at any issues that come up. We will still get ignored of course, but we can all sleep better knowing that we did our super happy nice nice dance for them.

    You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Val. Everyone is different, and handles/reacts to such things differently. This is Cryptic's house, though, and they get to decide what they find acceptable and what they don't. Others can either choose to modify their behavior, or choose not to participate.
    GrWzQke.png
    Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
    Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
    Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
    ----> Contact Customer Support <----
    Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
    Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
    Want the latest information on Star Trek Online?
    Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
  • Options
    fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,955 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Some have said the same about me.

    Hence, my point that nothing every comes of it if reports are made to Kael. I personally am not talking about one or two isolated incidents. There has been a very predictable, very systemic pattern of poor behavior and overstepping of bounds over the years. Absolutely nothing has changed and absolutely nothing ever will.
    Obviously, some of the devs shy away from here because of the atmosphere. You want that to change, change the atmosphere.

    They do remember we are the customers helping to keep them employed, right? This door swings both ways.

    Quite honestly, I think the overall point is being lost and/or totally ignored by hiding behind "these are the rules here" and that may very well be the goal.

    @sirsitsalot is spot on - longstanding, legitimate concerns not being addressed does not speak well in terms of communication. That feeling like shouting against a gale is absolutely right.

    If you're referring to something in particular, I'm afraid that I'm unaware of it. I had been gone for awhile and I apologize to the community for that.

    Yes, they are aware of that. I honestly believe that they'd like to come here more, but as Kael once said, it's hard to get up the wherewithal to wade into a bunch of flame posts, which is unfortunately how they perceive this forum. If that were to change, though, then I believe you'd see them here more often.


    I'm not disagreeing that communication should be bilateral. I would prefer that the devs were more active here as well. Hell, I can communicate directly with a dev on a daily basis, and I can still get frustrated with not being able to get answers sometimes. But I'm also mature enough to know that I can't always get what I want, and that sometimes "now" isn't the best time. And I accept that.

    Obviously, some of the devs shy away from here because of the atmosphere. You want that to change, change the atmosphere. You, personally, have acknowledged a need for that and have decided to make a change for yourself. I applaud that. I wish we had more of it, because I believe it truly could make a difference.

    As you just got done saying, you're a moderator. I think you want to keep being a moderator. And I think you know that if you were to start rocking the boat with any kind of fervor, you would likely find yourself stripped of that privilege. So no matter how upset you may personally get over not getting answers or seeing your own concerns addressed, you are mature enough to bite your tongue and keep soldiering on.

    I have talked about perception in the past. What people perceive defines the truths they know, until they perceive something differently and accept new truths. Or make a conscious decision to change direction after looking at themselves, whichb is what I have done.

    I can understand that the developers are too busy to personally come in here and just shoot the breeze with us. But the PERCEPTION here is that they do not have the time to take bug reports and legitimate concerns from the community to hart and do something about it. When reports or inquiries are made and they don't even get acknowledged, let alone addressed, for over 8 MONTHS, this feeds the PERCEPTION that the dev team does not care, even if they do.

    I said in another thread that if they cannot communicate us words, they can communicate with actions. And when we go months and months without seeing actions, what does logic tell you that the community is going to perceive. Lack of communication AND lack of action adds fuel to the fire. And the negative energy increases.
    But the point of THIS thread, at it's root, has been how best to communicate one's displeasure without getting moderated by the forum moderators. Not about the devs communicating back. For my part, I've tried to communicate how I do my job, so that you can avoid getting moderated by me, anyway. And for me, it's very simple: be kind, be courteous, and follow the rules.

    You want to communicate with a dev? You can't very well get your message across if your thread/post gets locked/deleted, because you were rude, insulting, and breaking forum rules. So, first step is: avoid getting moderated.

    Fair enough. I just wanted to offer some clarity on what I am perceiving as a root problem and flashpoint for a lot of the forum fires that you guys have to put out. See we don't just want to be able to talk to a dev. We want to be able to have some reasonable assurances that our concerns will be addressed.

    Even if every single person here decides for themselves to take a similar path as I have chosen to take, if following the guidelines in the "How to have a discussion" post doesn't result in bilateral communication, OR actual actions taken to address the issues we raise, then it is an exercise in futility, and will only serve to add to the frustration, and nothing will change.

    At the time of this writing, my signature reads "There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle. I am declaring my intent to spearhead an effort to meet in the middle. The question is, Is Cryptic willing to do the same? This "Us against Them" attitude needs to stop. And it will stop when both parties decide that enough is enough.

    There should be a symbiotic relationship between Cryptic and the community. From my chair, the best possible game STO can possibly be will come about when we have a dev team that genuinely has its finger on the pulse of the community they expect to consume their product. This cannot happen unless bilateral interaction occurs. Even if our interaction is to give voice to concerns or concepts that might improve things and Cryptic's interaction is to produce the results to that effect.

    We are all in this together, and yet we are divided against each other. Nothing productive can come of that status quo. If we are in this together, then we need to be able to strive together for the common good of us all. What is past is past. But we can begin building a better future right here in the present.

    So yes. I am going to be a self-proclaimed ambassador for this community. I'll step aside if someone more qualified comes along. But someone has to take the first step towards more than a band-aid solution to this arterial problem.

    Following the guidelines of How to have a discussion may prevent threads from being moderated or locked. But the concept of a discussion calls for bilateral interaction. When that does not occur after months and months, no discussion ever happened, and whatever was put out there is just floating around in the ether serving no purpose.

    I want to see positive change, so I am putting forth the effort to be part of that change. But this community is not all that needs to change. Cryptic needs to be a part of it as well, or there can be no change. I'd like to see where STO could go if we were all on the same page, rather than fractured the way we are now.

    I hear what you're saying, and I agree with most of it. Unfortunately the onus of changing the atmosphere and the dialogue of this forum is on the users. Once that is done, the devs are more likely to return, but not before then.

    westmetals wrote: »


    You want to communicate with a dev? You can't very well get your message across if your thread/post gets locked/deleted, because you were rude, insulting, and breaking forum rules. So, first step is: avoid getting moderated.

    Except that's not up to us.

    Literally. Because I'm talking about threads that were moderated because of other players who were "were rude, insulting, and breaking forum rules" toward me. Which I could not avoid, even after literally telling them to back off multiple times.

    Except, it literally is. You just stated "other players" got the thread moderated. Their behavior needs to change as well. None of this is directed specifically at you. It's for everyone here. No, you can't control what other people do, but you can report them instead of sparring with them, and let one of us deal with them.

    And no, I'm not deciding the purpose of your posts, but I am judging your behavior.



    As I'm still of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with the moderation here, I'd like to focus on another thing:

    Yes, they are aware of that. I honestly believe that they'd like to come here more, but as Kael once said, it's hard to get up the wherewithal to wade into a bunch of flame posts, which is unfortunately how they perceive this forum. If that were to change, though, then I believe you'd see them here more often.

    Although I perfectly understand this reasoning, there is one thing I don't understand. These forums were always rather rough. There were always both rude players and players who could communicate their concerns in a more civilised way.

    As the forum has become noticably less busy compared to years ago - and most trolls were effectively banned by Kael, which I applaud him for - that also means that there are far fewer rude players here.

    Yet in the past there were quite a few Devs who did frequent the forum, whereas they're now mostly gone.


    I can understand why people wish to stay away from a toxic website. I can also understand that, if this place is perceived as toxic, that would require change from the toxic people.
    But what I don't get: this forum used to be much more toxic in the past. Devs visited then. Now they don't, even though there's a much more friendly atmosphere here (or at least, that's my perception, but can any of the people who've also been here for a long time disagree with that?)
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.

    [6/12 9:59][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 24097 (13711) Physical Damage(Critical) to Elite Tactical Drone
This discussion has been closed.