Way I see it (no, really, saw the pertinent episode again last night), thickness of armor/hull is only marginally relevant. It's primarily about speed and inertia. A rapidly swung sword can cleave thru thick armor when its speed is high enough (essentially so high, that the inertia of the object hit causes said object to be too slow to react in time, as it were).
But that's thing: the big Klink ship wasn't moving fast at all. Eminently slow, actually. Since the Fed ship wasn't backed against a (literal) wall, so as to be simply crushed by the cleave, it should, IMHO, simply have bumped/veered off. No way it would have stood her ground and be slowly sliced like that.
The inertia and velocity of both craft must be taken into account, however. I haven't been able to find any data on the mass of a Walker-class starship, but I have to imagine it's at least ten thousand tons or so (a Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser masses about 9600 long tons when fully loaded). That much mass isn't going to "bump" anywhere very fast, especially if its velocity vector is more or less toward the cleave ship.
Way I see it (no, really, saw the pertinent episode again last night), thickness of armor/hull is only marginally relevant. It's primarily about speed and inertia. A rapidly swung sword can cleave thru thick armor when its speed is high enough (essentially so high, that the inertia of the object hit causes said object to be too slow to react in time, as it were).
But that's thing: the big Klink ship wasn't moving fast at all. Eminently slow, actually. Since the Fed ship wasn't backed against a (literal) wall, so as to be simply crushed by the cleave, it should, IMHO, simply have bumped/veered off. No way it would have stood her ground and be slowly sliced like that.
The inertia and velocity of both craft must be taken into account, however. I haven't been able to find any data on the mass of a Walker-class starship, but I have to imagine it's at least ten thousand tons or so (a Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser masses about 9600 long tons when fully loaded). That much mass isn't going to "bump" anywhere very fast, especially if its velocity vector is more or less toward the cleave ship.
The ship that got cleaved, the USS Europa, wasn't a Walker class, rather it was a Nimitz class.
Way I see it (no, really, saw the pertinent episode again last night), thickness of armor/hull is only marginally relevant. It's primarily about speed and inertia. A rapidly swung sword can cleave thru thick armor when its speed is high enough (essentially so high, that the inertia of the object hit causes said object to be too slow to react in time, as it were).
But that's thing: the big Klink ship wasn't moving fast at all. Eminently slow, actually. Since the Fed ship wasn't backed against a (literal) wall, so as to be simply crushed by the cleave, it should, IMHO, simply have bumped/veered off. No way it would have stood her ground and be slowly sliced like that.
The inertia and velocity of both craft must be taken into account, however. I haven't been able to find any data on the mass of a Walker-class starship, but I have to imagine it's at least ten thousand tons or so (a Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser masses about 9600 long tons when fully loaded). That much mass isn't going to "bump" anywhere very fast, especially if its velocity vector is more or less toward the cleave ship.
The ship that got cleaved, the USS Europa, wasn't a Walker class, rather it was a Nimitz class.
Absolutelly, but the Europa wasnt moving forward, was stationary while recovering the Shenzhou, if both were moving forward, yes, what we see in the cutscene (and in the series), would have been more credible.. sorry, i'm just hardwire to see phisics in everithing
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
Way I see it (no, really, saw the pertinent episode again last night), thickness of armor/hull is only marginally relevant. It's primarily about speed and inertia. A rapidly swung sword can cleave thru thick armor when its speed is high enough (essentially so high, that the inertia of the object hit causes said object to be too slow to react in time, as it were).
But that's thing: the big Klink ship wasn't moving fast at all. Eminently slow, actually. Since the Fed ship wasn't backed against a (literal) wall, so as to be simply crushed by the cleave, it should, IMHO, simply have bumped/veered off. No way it would have stood her ground and be slowly sliced like that.
The inertia and velocity of both craft must be taken into account, however. I haven't been able to find any data on the mass of a Walker-class starship, but I have to imagine it's at least ten thousand tons or so (a Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser masses about 9600 long tons when fully loaded). That much mass isn't going to "bump" anywhere very fast, especially if its velocity vector is more or less toward the cleave ship.
The ship that got cleaved, the USS Europa, wasn't a Walker class, rather it was a Nimitz class.
Absolutelly, but the Europa wasnt moving forward, was stationary while recovering the Shenzhou, if both were moving forward, yes, what we see in the cutscene (and in the series), would have been more credible.. sorry, i'm just hardwire to see phisics in everithing
Thrusters would have been at station-keeping at least - you don't want to drift away during an operation like that. So thrusters would have been working to keep the ship in place, while the cleave ship broke it.
Also the note above, concerning the equation for kinetic energy.
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
What if your truck hits a feather, though?! It will just get pushed aside.
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
What if your truck hits a feather, though?! It will just get pushed aside.
Yeah, i still think that is using tractor beams to keep the target in place (the most practical explanation) or Jonsills explanation, that also could be a practical one to do that damage without pushing the ship away by transfering momentum.
BTW, i love this kind of discussions... so much fun and so nerdy at the same time
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
What if your truck hits a feather, though?! It will just get pushed aside.
Yeah, i still think that is using tractor beams to keep the target in place (the most practical explanation) or Jonsills explanation, that also could be a practical one to do that damage without pushing the ship away by transfering momentum.
BTW, i love this kind of discussions... so much fun and so nerdy at the same time
Now that you mention it, the Europa, IN THE GAME, has a tractor beam on a ship below, at the time of the incident (not in the real Episode). The tractor beam should have kept it better in place, as traction is a 2-way street kinda deal: both ships will feel it equally, the one doing the toeing and the toeee (yeah that last word probably doesn't exist, but you what I mean).
I just did a BBS that had me laughing out loud. This time there were three of us, (as best I could tell), doing Science magic, and one guy had a science power I didn't recognise. It looked rather like a smaller version of the Bajoran wormhole, in a different color scheme. If anyone could tell me more about this, I would appreciate it.
At any rate, it was a facerollroflstompwtfbbq of truly epic proportions. Watching a dreadnought get pulled back and forth between two powerful gravity wells is a diversion worthy of Ares himself. Sometimes this game has moments when it is just absolutely sublime, and those all-too-rare moments make up for a lot.
... And now I'm wondering how useful a (continuous) Tractor Beam in space really is. Once you have reached your desired flight speed, with no extraneous forces working on the ship you're toeing (cuz you're in space), you'd actually only need to pulse your TB every now and then (for when speeding up, and course corrections and such). But I digress.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I just did a BBS that had me laughing out loud. This time there were three of us, (as best I could tell), doing Science magic, and one guy had a science power I didn't recognise. It looked rather like a smaller version of the Bajoran wormhole, in a different color scheme. If anyone could tell me more about this, I would appreciate it.
Very Cold In Space, maybe? With spore-infused stuffz, it's reportedly a real killer.
I played Binary twice in a row on an Engineer in a Legendary Verity (once to complete the Event and once to start the Bonus). Well the second run there were Mega Grav Wells with Temporal Anchor, constant scooping up of loads of Klingon Ships. I'd keep up TSIII into the maelstrom with some FAW, Emergency Artillery, and Danube Runabouts
It was fast and glorious.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
What if your truck hits a feather, though?! It will just get pushed aside.
That would really depend upon, is the feather still attached to the bird? If the answer is yes, then you likely have a new hood ornament, and maybe a need for new grill on your truck.
I just finished the event and got my Disco R2D2 pet and kit power. The Disco R2D2 shares a cooldown with the engineer ability support drone. Use one and it locks out the other with a cooldown. Kind of stinks really.. going back to my TOS drones.
Now that you mention it, the Europa, IN THE GAME, has a tractor beam on a ship below, at the time of the incident (not in the real Episode).
Yes, it did - it had a Tractor beam on the U.S.S. Shenzhou UNTIL it was struckby the Klingon Cleave ship (the PoV in the episode is different, but yeah, Cryptic got it right):
The Tractor Beam engages at 1:30 into the video clip.
It maintains through the Admiral's speech and disengages as the Cleave ship starts to 'strike' the Europa at 3:28 into the clip.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Now that you mention it, the Europa, IN THE GAME, has a tractor beam on a ship below, at the time of the incident (not in the real Episode).
Yes, it did - it had a Tractor beam on the U.S.S. Shenzhou UNTIL it was struckby the Klingon Cleave ship (the PoV in the episode is different, but yeah, Cryptic got it right):
The Tractor Beam engages at 1:30 into the video clip.
It maintains through the Admiral's speech and disengages as the Cleave ship starts to 'strike' the Europa at 3:28 into the clip.
At 3:30 into the vid, the Captain of the Shenzhou asks for visuals. I see no Tractor beam engaged at that time. In the game, the Tractor beam appears to be still on, at that moment.
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
What if your truck hits a feather, though?! It will just get pushed aside.
The mass of the feather is negligible; the mass of the truck dominates in this collision. One must also take into account the surface area available to absorb the impact energies. Damage to the truck is trivial to nonexistent; damage to the feather is catastrophic, particularly if we assume a rigid feather (I assume most Starfleet ships are incapable of flexing to minimize impact damage, as this would make them terribly unsuitable to their primary task of being starships).
keep in mind beyond mass you also have speed in the equation, even at impulse speeds a starship apparently moves a pretty decent percentage of the speed of light. accelerate a feather up to .75c and I bet even the feather will do some damage on impact.
honestly photon torpedos don't do nearly eneugh damage considering you could just accelerate a basket ball sized rock to 0.5 C and you'd have a weapon with the destructive capacity of the hiroshima bomb.
keep in mind beyond mass you also have speed in the equation, even at impulse speeds a starship apparently moves a pretty decent percentage of the speed of light. accelerate a feather up to .75c and I bet even the feather will do some damage on impact.
honestly photon torpedos don't do nearly eneugh damage considering you could just accelerate a basket ball sized rock to 0.5 C and you'd have a weapon with the destructive capacity of the hiroshima bomb.
Common mistake - you are confusing "Ke=MV^2" which is kinetic energy with "E=MC^2" which is the formula for total conversion of mass to energy, as in the Hiroshima atrocity device to which you refer.
> @chastity1337 said: > (Quote) > > Common mistake - you are confusing "Ke=MV^2" which is kinetic energy with "E=MC^2" which is the formula for total conversion of mass to energy, as in the Hiroshima atrocity device to which you refer.
I think some of you forget a few things. All mass has gravity and all ships have mass.
Likewise gravity is still everywhere including within star systems and the BBS is rather close to those stars and one of them is a black hole.
And the cleave ship is ramming a very dense and narrow blade against a flat surface thats not so thick. It could line up. Your focusing a lot of kinetic energy into a narrow point with two relatively large ships. Sure the cleave is bigger but the europa isnt tiny.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
Except for relativistic speeds where things get more complicated for relativistic speeds its E=mc^2-Mc^2 ,where M is the rest mass of the object and m is the mass while in motion.
That said while official sources say that impulse speeds are a signifigant portion of lightspeed the stuff on screen does not match for the most part, only times there's implied relativistic speeds is when "in-transit" in system but in-combat speed don't look more then few hundred kilometers per hour for cap ships at best (shuttles are faster).
We should also remember that mass is slow and bigger the object less "willing" it's to move (that's why a small baseball sized asteroid doesn't deorbit the Earth when hitting it), not mention that the Europa Had both impulse and warp engines online until the damage to the ship shut them down so there might have been some thrust even if we didn't observe any motion.
There's really nothing we can do about, so why argue about it. If only the cutscene was skippable.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
TOS ships like the Constitution class would have probably bounced off the blade before it went very far in, since they were supposed to be heavily armored with nine inches of tritanium armor over their pressure hulls (that carrier variant they use in DSC probably has the same thin unarmored hulls that the other DSC ships have though, judging by the way that very slow moving large projectile went in).
And sure, the tritanium armor is heavy, but the TOS ships survived bouncing some pretty hefty rocks in the doomsday machine episode, clipped several asteroids chasing Mudds ship in another, and even withstood a giant hand grabbing the ship by the saucer section and shaking it around (I forget the psi number they gave for the hand, but as usual it was insanely high by today's standards).
Throwaway dialog in DSC s2e1 stated that Jetts wrecked ship was made from titanium though, and if the cruiser that the cleave hit was one that used that mundane metal it is not too much of a stretch that it came apart like that (especially if it is as toletpaper thin as the Shenzhou's is from the blowout scene before that. Of course, the cleave would never have survived the explosion when the antimatter bunkers detonated in contact with the cleave's hull no less, but that would never even be considered in the especially crazy physics action movies use (and DSC is done in that style).
As for the timegating problem, it is way too noticeable because they run until the timers run out and all the enemy ships just fade out for the most part, which makes the scenario feel unnecessarily fake, especially when they do it several times during the run. A less immersion-breaking way of doing it would be to use shorter timers to pad the scenario but use them to bring in enemy ships for a certain amount of time then wait until the players destroy them all instead of using them to dismiss the enemy ships.
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
What if your truck hits a feather, though?! It will just get pushed aside.
The mass of the feather is negligible; the mass of the truck dominates in this collision. One must also take into account the surface area available to absorb the impact energies. Damage to the truck is trivial to nonexistent; damage to the feather is catastrophic, particularly if we assume a rigid feather (I assume most Starfleet ships are incapable of flexing to minimize impact damage, as this would make them terribly unsuitable to their primary task of being starships).
Assuming it is a rigid body means you assume there is no damage to it as you are assuming the rigidness of the shape throughout the interaction. A rigid body assumption on the ships would give you the upper velocity that the impact would impart as all the energy transferred to the target ship is used to impart velocity rather than cause damage, and it would probably slow down the impacting ship slightly as well. For such an example the delta V for the first ship tells you the V of the impacted ship when the mass of both ships stays the same.
A feather is a terrible example because of the way a feather interacts with the airflow around a truck, an egg would be better suited for destruction.
The ship is going to deform and take damage, probably, but deformation is using some of the energy of the impact to destroy/damage parts of the ship, like it would destroy an egg, and in fact is going to lower the damage of impact to the rest of the ship in the same way a crumple zone in a car absorbs impact energy. How much is a big question.
The error remains in having the ship stay completely still. There is no reason to imagine it wouldn't be pushed backwards, because there is literally nothing stopping it from moving backwards, and as the egg would be destroyed it is also splattered and has its separated mass imparted with velocities in many directions, including some that takes the truck velocity, stuck to the windshield or whatever.
Also, with the context of the scene, the ship might have been using reverse thrust already to pull the other ship back from hitting the asteroid, in addition to the tractor beam, but it has zero reason to use forward thrust in that situation. As the scene shows the ship being cut like tinfoil, there is no way to cut tinfoil with a knife, sword or anything else, and not also have to hold it in place or watch it be imparted with a velocity away from the cutting device.
Likewise gravity is still everywhere including within star systems and the BBS is rather close to those stars and one of them is a black hole.
one of them is NOT a black hole - they are both stars, as burned ham's log entry in vulcan hello makes abundantly clear
"First officer's log, stardate 1207.3. On Earth, it's May 11, 2256, a Sunday. The crew of the USS Shenzhou has been called to the edge of Federation space to investigate damage done to one of our interstellar relays. Blast burns around the hole are inconclusive. Were they caused by an asteroid, or was it deliberately destroyed to limit Starfleet communications? And if so, by whom? Despite the risks of our mission, I remain optimistic. It's hard not to be in the face of such beauty – in this case, a binary star system. Around these two suns, ice, dust, and gasses collide to form planets future generations will call home. A humbling reminder that all life is born from chaos and destruction."
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Few things to consider in the series (opposed to the cutscene in STO) the viewscreen of the Shenzou was clear of any debris when the tractor beam shut down meaning it was at least at 90 degree angle away from the asteroid field and more like at 180 degree angle to the field meaning the nose of both the Shenzou and the Europa was away from the field not towards it. Thus the Europa was in fact most likely using its primary impulse engines as the field as behind it not in front when the Cleave ship hit it.
also as I've stated before mass is slow or more clearly momentum does not disapear in absense of air. While we don't know the exact mass of the Nimitz class it can't be much lighter then the Connie seeing as those roughly the same size range. This means that the Europa can not suddenly shift motion vectors at blink of an eye. Also the Europa wasn't really cut like with a knife, if your knife cause the item you're cutting to deform the way the Europa's hull was you definetly need to sharpen it as the hull plates of the Europa were clearly buckling and bending out of the way of a mass rather then getting cleanly cut.
Just be the STO engine can't show it doesn't mean said deformation didn't happen as it was clearly shown in the series itself.
EDIT:the field is in fact visible at Shenzou viewscreen I blame the scene being too dark to not notice it at first but still my point about the momentum is still valid not mention and there is a clear turn in the scene meaning we can't say that the Europa didn't employ any forward thrust.
As I'm sure has been mentioned here, Federation ships are not completely structurally sound. This is why they have a subsystem for Structural Integrity. You can even get boff abilities that feed this, like Emergency Power to Structural Integrity.
Without this power system, it's pretty safe to assume that a Federation ship would get crushed, like a stomped soda can, in high gravity areas, and fly apart at warp speed.
Add to this they also come with an Inertial Dampener system as well, and we have evidence that the Federation really needs to learn how to build starships.
Comments
The ship that got cleaved, the USS Europa, wasn't a Walker class, rather it was a Nimitz class.
Absolutelly, but the Europa wasnt moving forward, was stationary while recovering the Shenzhou, if both were moving forward, yes, what we see in the cutscene (and in the series), would have been more credible.. sorry, i'm just hardwire to see phisics in everithing
IDK - I had the same problem with that scene that I had with the Ramming scene in ST:NEM - either the Navigational Deflectors would have lessened the impact (that's what they are designed to do - deflect large objects; or hell, the ships would have effectively bounced off each other for the most part as there's no 'gravity' to push against and even with the mass of the objects; you wouldn't have that damaging a collision at the low speed the objects were colliding at. If Federation ship hulls are that flimsy, they should come apart under any FTL warp speed.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Ke=MV^2
Kinetic energy equals mass times the square of velocity. And when you've got that much mass, you don't really need a whole lot of velocity to hurt someone.
If you get hit by a bicycle going 35 km/h you might get a bruise. If you get hit by a Kenworth hauling doubles full of live hogs going 35 km/h, you're going to be a hurting puppy.
Also the note above, concerning the equation for kinetic energy.
What if your truck hits a feather, though?! It will just get pushed aside.
Yeah, i still think that is using tractor beams to keep the target in place (the most practical explanation) or Jonsills explanation, that also could be a practical one to do that damage without pushing the ship away by transfering momentum.
BTW, i love this kind of discussions... so much fun and so nerdy at the same time
Now that you mention it, the Europa, IN THE GAME, has a tractor beam on a ship below, at the time of the incident (not in the real Episode). The tractor beam should have kept it better in place, as traction is a 2-way street kinda deal: both ships will feel it equally, the one doing the toeing and the toeee (yeah that last word probably doesn't exist, but you what I mean).
At any rate, it was a facerollroflstompwtfbbq of truly epic proportions. Watching a dreadnought get pulled back and forth between two powerful gravity wells is a diversion worthy of Ares himself. Sometimes this game has moments when it is just absolutely sublime, and those all-too-rare moments make up for a lot.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Very Cold In Space, maybe? With spore-infused stuffz, it's reportedly a real killer.
It was fast and glorious.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Also, Cryptic did really well in recreating the scenes from the series into the game, at least this tfo, so well done!
That would really depend upon, is the feather still attached to the bird? If the answer is yes, then you likely have a new hood ornament, and maybe a need for new grill on your truck.
Yes, it did - it had a Tractor beam on the U.S.S. Shenzhou UNTIL it was struckby the Klingon Cleave ship (the PoV in the episode is different, but yeah, Cryptic got it right):
The Tractor Beam engages at 1:30 into the video clip.
It maintains through the Admiral's speech and disengages as the Cleave ship starts to 'strike' the Europa at 3:28 into the clip.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
At 3:30 into the vid, the Captain of the Shenzhou asks for visuals. I see no Tractor beam engaged at that time. In the game, the Tractor beam appears to be still on, at that moment.
honestly photon torpedos don't do nearly eneugh damage considering you could just accelerate a basket ball sized rock to 0.5 C and you'd have a weapon with the destructive capacity of the hiroshima bomb.
Common mistake - you are confusing "Ke=MV^2" which is kinetic energy with "E=MC^2" which is the formula for total conversion of mass to energy, as in the Hiroshima atrocity device to which you refer.
> (Quote)
>
> Common mistake - you are confusing "Ke=MV^2" which is kinetic energy with "E=MC^2" which is the formula for total conversion of mass to energy, as in the Hiroshima atrocity device to which you refer.
I think some of you forget a few things. All mass has gravity and all ships have mass.
Likewise gravity is still everywhere including within star systems and the BBS is rather close to those stars and one of them is a black hole.
And the cleave ship is ramming a very dense and narrow blade against a flat surface thats not so thick. It could line up. Your focusing a lot of kinetic energy into a narrow point with two relatively large ships. Sure the cleave is bigger but the europa isnt tiny.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
That said while official sources say that impulse speeds are a signifigant portion of lightspeed the stuff on screen does not match for the most part, only times there's implied relativistic speeds is when "in-transit" in system but in-combat speed don't look more then few hundred kilometers per hour for cap ships at best (shuttles are faster).
We should also remember that mass is slow and bigger the object less "willing" it's to move (that's why a small baseball sized asteroid doesn't deorbit the Earth when hitting it), not mention that the Europa Had both impulse and warp engines online until the damage to the ship shut them down so there might have been some thrust even if we didn't observe any motion.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Assuming it is a rigid body means you assume there is no damage to it as you are assuming the rigidness of the shape throughout the interaction. A rigid body assumption on the ships would give you the upper velocity that the impact would impart as all the energy transferred to the target ship is used to impart velocity rather than cause damage, and it would probably slow down the impacting ship slightly as well. For such an example the delta V for the first ship tells you the V of the impacted ship when the mass of both ships stays the same.
A feather is a terrible example because of the way a feather interacts with the airflow around a truck, an egg would be better suited for destruction.
The ship is going to deform and take damage, probably, but deformation is using some of the energy of the impact to destroy/damage parts of the ship, like it would destroy an egg, and in fact is going to lower the damage of impact to the rest of the ship in the same way a crumple zone in a car absorbs impact energy. How much is a big question.
The error remains in having the ship stay completely still. There is no reason to imagine it wouldn't be pushed backwards, because there is literally nothing stopping it from moving backwards, and as the egg would be destroyed it is also splattered and has its separated mass imparted with velocities in many directions, including some that takes the truck velocity, stuck to the windshield or whatever.
Also, with the context of the scene, the ship might have been using reverse thrust already to pull the other ship back from hitting the asteroid, in addition to the tractor beam, but it has zero reason to use forward thrust in that situation. As the scene shows the ship being cut like tinfoil, there is no way to cut tinfoil with a knife, sword or anything else, and not also have to hold it in place or watch it be imparted with a velocity away from the cutting device.
one of them is NOT a black hole - they are both stars, as burned ham's log entry in vulcan hello makes abundantly clear
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
also as I've stated before mass is slow or more clearly momentum does not disapear in absense of air. While we don't know the exact mass of the Nimitz class it can't be much lighter then the Connie seeing as those roughly the same size range. This means that the Europa can not suddenly shift motion vectors at blink of an eye. Also the Europa wasn't really cut like with a knife, if your knife cause the item you're cutting to deform the way the Europa's hull was you definetly need to sharpen it as the hull plates of the Europa were clearly buckling and bending out of the way of a mass rather then getting cleanly cut.
Just be the STO engine can't show it doesn't mean said deformation didn't happen as it was clearly shown in the series itself.
EDIT:the field is in fact visible at Shenzou viewscreen I blame the scene being too dark to not notice it at first but still my point about the momentum is still valid not mention and there is a clear turn in the scene meaning we can't say that the Europa didn't employ any forward thrust.
Without this power system, it's pretty safe to assume that a Federation ship would get crushed, like a stomped soda can, in high gravity areas, and fly apart at warp speed.
Add to this they also come with an Inertial Dampener system as well, and we have evidence that the Federation really needs to learn how to build starships.