I mostly use Dilithium for getting ZEN, how about keep the cap as is but lower the max someone can put Dil to ZEN? Maybe have special Dilithium Store percentage sales every so often?
The question as I asked it says that he has and is.
But he's not though. The guy playing just the single toon simply has not done the same amount of work as the person with the 28 toons, no matter how you slice it, so your question is unrealistic and flawed.
Again, I'm not talking about setting up anything. I'm talking about playing the game. Why is a given amount of gameplay worth more spread between multiple toons?
Because the people playing those multiple toons had to do more work to get those toons into a shape that they could farm dilithium. The person farming on 28 toons is worth more than the person only doing it on a single toon because that person has done 28 times the work as the person farming the single toon. The person doing the single toon deserves to be able to bring in a bit of dilithium because they did the work to build the toon up to where they could farm dilithium. Everything the person farming on one toon has done, the person farming with 28 toons has done 28 times over. That's 28 sets of weapons, skill sets, traits, ship builds, and so on. So because he's done 28 times the work, he gets 28 times the dilithium. The same is true with folks who farm on 55 toons. They've done 55 times the work to get the toons into a shape they could farm with, and as such they get 55 times the amount of dilithium. In other words, their payout is equal to the amount of work they put in. No matter how it's sliced, a person farming on a single toon simply has not done the same amount of work as someone farming on multiple toons. Eventually the person farming on the one toon can have the stuff the person with 28 or 55 toons has, but not as quickly as they have it.
As to why it's worth more, again they're doing 28 or 55 times the work the person with the single toon is doing, and that's the way the game was made. 8k dilithium per toon per day. If you want/need more dilithium then make more toons or buy it. Folks can get as much dilithium as they want if they play their cards smarter. As is right now I own everything in the cstore for ships and outfits, however I have also put in the time and effort to build myself up in game. Someone starting tomorrow that doesn't have what I do can eventually get it, they will just need to invest time and effort to get it.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
multi toons farming dil these days is not that difficult... not with JHD. Your at end game and you can just go farm dil right off the bat once you select a faction. Just a lot of repetitive acts... you no longer need to level up to do "end game" taskforces or battlezones. You can get 8k a day doing Dyson and a few other ques... then switch toons. rinse repeat... random taskforce doing normal and if you already have T5 rep on another toon... you just need max 650 rep marks and time to process it to hit T5 rep.
multi toons farming dil these days is not that difficult... not with JHD. Your at end game and you can just go farm dil right off the bat once you select a faction. Just a lot of repetitive acts... you no longer need to level up to do "end game" taskforces or battlezones. You can get 8k a day doing Dyson and a few other ques... then switch toons. rinse repeat... random taskforce doing normal and if you already have T5 rep on another toon... you just need max 650 rep marks and time to process it to hit T5 rep.
And if you have the Recruitment rewards you can create new burner characters, have them claim all their loot after ?20 hours? (I don't actually do this) then they don't even need to do the TFOs any more. Every day 3K dil from rep dailies then 20 days later, a mountain of dil from reps. Once that is consumed, delete and start over.
An account-wide dil limit of 15 - 20K would fix that.
An account-wide dil limit of 15 - 20K would fix that.
for me, that would be a terrible idea, like I use my dil to buy phoenix upgrades to create builds. The creation of builds is 1 of the only thing that keeps me in game.
multi toons farming dil these days is not that difficult... not with JHD. Your at end game and you can just go farm dil right off the bat once you select a faction. Just a lot of repetitive acts... you no longer need to level up to do "end game" taskforces or battlezones. You can get 8k a day doing Dyson and a few other ques... then switch toons. rinse repeat... random taskforce doing normal and if you already have T5 rep on another toon... you just need max 650 rep marks and time to process it to hit T5 rep.
And if you have the Recruitment rewards you can create new burner characters, have them claim all their loot after ?20 hours? (I don't actually do this) then they don't even need to do the TFOs any more. Every day 3K dil from rep dailies then 20 days later, a mountain of dil from reps. Once that is consumed, delete and start over.
An account-wide dil limit of 15 - 20K would fix that.
15-20k is insanely, cripplingly low. That is 2-3 characters currently. You're then taking 4 days to get a full set of reputation space gear, and another 3 days for a weapon and ground set. Then to upgrade it another week to get phoenix kits at least? Then you have all your other equipment to upgrade. Oh did you want fleet credits and fleet gear too? You thought it was hard getting people to contribute Dil right now, but who is going to dump 20000 dil into a fleet project when that is their entire accountwide refining limit for the day?
I have probably like 15 characters right now. None of them are just "pylons" but at least for a little while longer they are all hitting the refining cap daily (No I don't actually play them all enough to earn that much daily, its primarily mark conversions because I have so many extra marks which I'm finally dumping.) All of them have full mk 15 purple or better gear for space and ground and can handle advanced at least.
I have no idea how much Dil that took to make happen. I do know it would cripple my ability to do anything more if there was an absurdly low account wide dil limit. It would become impossible to ever refine all the dil I make with those characters with such a terribly low limit. I wouldn't be able to put my surplus on the market for the fleet addicts. Seeing dilithium at 50 per zen again would be amusing.
Here's another thing compared to Neverwinter. Neverwinter had a default higher refine limit than STO per character too. Also they decided to make Astral Diamonds needed for pretty much everything, including their Exchange.
Neverwinter is a bit more hardcore than STO.
And frankly... everyone who advocates for higher refine limits or account wide refine caps... aren't thinking things through.
Higher Refine Limits: Temporary solution that would wear off maybe within a month, and we'll be right back to people asking for a higher refine limit again in no time.
Account Wide Cap: What is the point of even suggesting this? Doesn't do anything about the DL that already exists in circulation. Just inhibits people's ability to get DL in the future.
The problem is with an account cap people will start requesting a raise in the account cap at some point, and we'll be right back to this very same discussion again. Nothing will change.
I care about the health as well.
I just honestly don't see how a cap will help. Having something to spend it on does have an impact though. We've seen it in the past.
In this case we both agree that we need a more balanced economy, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the method.
Also 15k is just a bit above 2 characters. Kinda harsh, which is one of the reasons I disagree with an account cap. Finding the right level is just as rough as finding the right sink people are willing to use.
The problem is with an account cap people will start requesting a raise in the account cap at some point, and we'll be right back to this very same discussion again. Nothing will change.
Other than the inflation issue can be solved you mean. And really if they have the rate at 15k per account or less...which I suspect maybe the case to cause deflation...or at least keep the market in check...I suspect that all those people who asked for the account limit will be none too happy from the get go. So from a people will complain PoV...yeah that won't change...but I could care less about that. What I care about is the health of the dilex. And an account limit COULD potentially be helpful with that.
Capping dilithium at an even lower amount doesn't address the problem and while it may lower supply of dilithium and deflate the exchange for a time, it will absolutely shut fleets down outright. As others have pointed out, if you think people don't donate dilithium now, wait till something like that gets implemented. There's more to consider than purely how much dilithium is on the exchange as dilithium limits effect the entire game. Yeah you might have cheaper zen for a time, but it would bring everything else to a screeching halt. Dilithium stayed low for the longest time because you had fleets to pull excess dilithium from the game and there was actually something to remove the excess supply that had value. Now that many fleets are maxed out, that sink that was there previously is no longer as effective. Phoenix packs being permanent definitely helps with a slow steady pull downward, but it's not enough on its own. They need a sink that gives benefits or perceived value that maxing out fleet holdings does, and then you will see dilithium come back down to earth. As to what that benefit would be is up for debate. All lowering the limit to 15k across an account would do is slap a band-aid solution on the problem without addressing why it got out of control to start with, and simply kick the can down the road. Plus if you think alot of folks left when Delta Rising hit, implement something like that and you'll see enough people leave to cause a game shut down.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Exactly, we're already so close to the cap and you can almost guarantee once the legendary pack is released it will hit 500 and stay there for a while, especially if they have sales and stuff for the weeks to come.
The problem is with an account cap people will start requesting a raise in the account cap at some point, and we'll be right back to this very same discussion again. Nothing will change.
Other than the inflation issue can be solved you mean. And really if they have the rate at 15k per account or less...which I suspect maybe the case to cause deflation...or at least keep the market in check...I suspect that all those people who asked for the account limit will be none too happy from the get go. So from a people will complain PoV...yeah that won't change...but I could care less about that. What I care about is the health of the dilex. And an account limit COULD potentially be helpful with that.
Can't speak for others but I'd be perfectly happy with 15k account-wide. Or indeed even 8k or whatever else Cryptic thinks is best. My interest in the matter is not the numbers, but making the game more main-friendly. Not everyone wants to switch toons all the time while playing.
I do see one problem with lowering the limit too much, though. The majority of the game's rewards are either dilithium ore or something that converts to dilithium ore. If players can't refine much of it, they have no reason to earn much of it either. So they'd need something else to keep them playing.
And I agree, "people will complain" is no basis to design a game by. People complain about everything.
Exactly, we're already so close to the cap and you can almost guarantee once the legendary pack is released it will hit 500 and stay there for a while, especially if they have sales and stuff for the weeks to come.
In this case, while historically that's been true... I'm not quite sure how it will affect the exchange prices as we are talking about something around the price of a Lifer Sub. Its a bit out of the range of most casuals and even a lot of the people who grind things out.
I grind things out and I'm looking at that amount like "uh... guys? You really expect me to spend an entire year grinding this out?"
I think I'll wait for the individual releases down the road.
An account limit would just entice people to make more accounts, it wouldnt have much impact on dill generation, just saying
People will always find alternate ways
Except that the alternate accounts would not have access to the main account's unlocks including ships for admiralty and x Recruit reward boxes so farming would go more slowly. Also, the zen would be split by account with no easy way to transfer it.
Nothing can stop farming, but an account-wide refinement cap would limit dil inflation from farmers.
I'm not saying it should happen. I'm just saying don't be surprised if it happens the next time Cryptic looks at ways to reduce the dil supply.
I also don't buy that a 20K cap would spell DOOM! since most players have 3 or fewer captains (as of a dev statement a year or two ago, or was it an infographic from '17 - '19?). Most players would be able to refine more when they had a spike from reputations or events with that kind of cap in place of the current 8K. They would see it as a benefit.
An account limit would just entice people to make more accounts, it wouldnt have much impact on dill generation, just saying
People will always find alternate ways
Except that the alternate accounts would not have access to the main account's unlocks including ships for admiralty and x Recruit reward boxes so farming would go more slowly. Also, the zen would be split by account with no easy way to transfer it.
Nothing can stop farming, but an account-wide refinement cap would limit dil inflation from farmers.
I'm not saying it should happen. I'm just saying don't be surprised if it happens the next time Cryptic looks at ways to reduce the dil supply.
I also don't buy that a 20K cap would spell DOOM! since most players have 3 or fewer captains (as of a dev statement a year or two ago, or was it an infographic from '17 - '19?). Most players would be able to refine more when they had a spike from reputations or events with that kind of cap in place of the current 8K. They would see it as a benefit.
if not wrong cryptic had added the option to buy a ship as gift - if I am not wrong(cant log right now) then they could gather dill and covert it to zen, buy as gift to their other account
the other way they can use this is putting dill in their own fleet
Exactly, we're already so close to the cap and you can almost guarantee once the legendary pack is released it will hit 500 and stay there for a while, especially if they have sales and stuff for the weeks to come.
In this case, while historically that's been true... I'm not quite sure how it will affect the exchange prices as we are talking about something around the price of a Lifer Sub. Its a bit out of the range of most casuals and even a lot of the people who grind things out.
I grind things out and I'm looking at that amount like "uh... guys? You really expect me to spend an entire year grinding this out?"
I think I'll wait for the individual releases down the road.
If there are individual releases though...so far it seems like the Devs have hinted that wont be the case. Besides if they listed things like the Discovery Connie as a single purchase I can see that sucker likely going for more than even the Vizier
@baddmoonrizin Isn't it time 'Increase Dilithium refinement cap!' be put on the F.C.T?! It's invariably being suggested, over and over again, by ppl with not even the slightest notion about how economies work: specifically Inflation.
Oh, I agree that this is a topic that should probably be in the FCT, but I'd need a dev to go on the record with an answer/reason as to why it will not be changed before that can happen.
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Oh, I agree that this is a topic that should probably be in the FCT, but I'd need a dev to go on the record with an answer/reason as to why it will not be changed before that can happen.
Not sure if this would be a viable option but instead of a daily limit of 8k why not a weekly limit of ~50k, which could be achieved as quickly or as slowly as a toon required. This would satisfy the "need it now" situations whilst slightly reducing the overall supply. This would also benefit fleets where a single player is grinding multiple toons to satisfy fleet project requirements because other fleet members (a) won't contribute; (b) can't contribute or (c) have vanished altogether.
Not only is it NOT time to increase the refining cap. I can't imagine a situation in which it will ever be a good idea to do so. How this topic is not part of the FCT is beyond me.
When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
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But he's not though. The guy playing just the single toon simply has not done the same amount of work as the person with the 28 toons, no matter how you slice it, so your question is unrealistic and flawed.
Because the people playing those multiple toons had to do more work to get those toons into a shape that they could farm dilithium. The person farming on 28 toons is worth more than the person only doing it on a single toon because that person has done 28 times the work as the person farming the single toon. The person doing the single toon deserves to be able to bring in a bit of dilithium because they did the work to build the toon up to where they could farm dilithium. Everything the person farming on one toon has done, the person farming with 28 toons has done 28 times over. That's 28 sets of weapons, skill sets, traits, ship builds, and so on. So because he's done 28 times the work, he gets 28 times the dilithium. The same is true with folks who farm on 55 toons. They've done 55 times the work to get the toons into a shape they could farm with, and as such they get 55 times the amount of dilithium. In other words, their payout is equal to the amount of work they put in. No matter how it's sliced, a person farming on a single toon simply has not done the same amount of work as someone farming on multiple toons. Eventually the person farming on the one toon can have the stuff the person with 28 or 55 toons has, but not as quickly as they have it.
As to why it's worth more, again they're doing 28 or 55 times the work the person with the single toon is doing, and that's the way the game was made. 8k dilithium per toon per day. If you want/need more dilithium then make more toons or buy it. Folks can get as much dilithium as they want if they play their cards smarter. As is right now I own everything in the cstore for ships and outfits, however I have also put in the time and effort to build myself up in game. Someone starting tomorrow that doesn't have what I do can eventually get it, they will just need to invest time and effort to get it.
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And if you have the Recruitment rewards you can create new burner characters, have them claim all their loot after ?20 hours? (I don't actually do this) then they don't even need to do the TFOs any more. Every day 3K dil from rep dailies then 20 days later, a mountain of dil from reps. Once that is consumed, delete and start over.
An account-wide dil limit of 15 - 20K would fix that.
for me, that would be a terrible idea, like I use my dil to buy phoenix upgrades to create builds. The creation of builds is 1 of the only thing that keeps me in game.
15-20k is insanely, cripplingly low. That is 2-3 characters currently. You're then taking 4 days to get a full set of reputation space gear, and another 3 days for a weapon and ground set. Then to upgrade it another week to get phoenix kits at least? Then you have all your other equipment to upgrade. Oh did you want fleet credits and fleet gear too? You thought it was hard getting people to contribute Dil right now, but who is going to dump 20000 dil into a fleet project when that is their entire accountwide refining limit for the day?
I have probably like 15 characters right now. None of them are just "pylons" but at least for a little while longer they are all hitting the refining cap daily (No I don't actually play them all enough to earn that much daily, its primarily mark conversions because I have so many extra marks which I'm finally dumping.) All of them have full mk 15 purple or better gear for space and ground and can handle advanced at least.
I have no idea how much Dil that took to make happen. I do know it would cripple my ability to do anything more if there was an absurdly low account wide dil limit. It would become impossible to ever refine all the dil I make with those characters with such a terribly low limit. I wouldn't be able to put my surplus on the market for the fleet addicts. Seeing dilithium at 50 per zen again would be amusing.
Neverwinter is a bit more hardcore than STO.
And frankly... everyone who advocates for higher refine limits or account wide refine caps... aren't thinking things through.
Higher Refine Limits: Temporary solution that would wear off maybe within a month, and we'll be right back to people asking for a higher refine limit again in no time.
Account Wide Cap: What is the point of even suggesting this? Doesn't do anything about the DL that already exists in circulation. Just inhibits people's ability to get DL in the future.
I just honestly don't see how a cap will help. Having something to spend it on does have an impact though. We've seen it in the past.
In this case we both agree that we need a more balanced economy, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the method.
Also 15k is just a bit above 2 characters. Kinda harsh, which is one of the reasons I disagree with an account cap. Finding the right level is just as rough as finding the right sink people are willing to use.
Capping dilithium at an even lower amount doesn't address the problem and while it may lower supply of dilithium and deflate the exchange for a time, it will absolutely shut fleets down outright. As others have pointed out, if you think people don't donate dilithium now, wait till something like that gets implemented. There's more to consider than purely how much dilithium is on the exchange as dilithium limits effect the entire game. Yeah you might have cheaper zen for a time, but it would bring everything else to a screeching halt. Dilithium stayed low for the longest time because you had fleets to pull excess dilithium from the game and there was actually something to remove the excess supply that had value. Now that many fleets are maxed out, that sink that was there previously is no longer as effective. Phoenix packs being permanent definitely helps with a slow steady pull downward, but it's not enough on its own. They need a sink that gives benefits or perceived value that maxing out fleet holdings does, and then you will see dilithium come back down to earth. As to what that benefit would be is up for debate. All lowering the limit to 15k across an account would do is slap a band-aid solution on the problem without addressing why it got out of control to start with, and simply kick the can down the road. Plus if you think alot of folks left when Delta Rising hit, implement something like that and you'll see enough people leave to cause a game shut down.
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Exactly, we're already so close to the cap and you can almost guarantee once the legendary pack is released it will hit 500 and stay there for a while, especially if they have sales and stuff for the weeks to come.
I do see one problem with lowering the limit too much, though. The majority of the game's rewards are either dilithium ore or something that converts to dilithium ore. If players can't refine much of it, they have no reason to earn much of it either. So they'd need something else to keep them playing.
And I agree, "people will complain" is no basis to design a game by. People complain about everything.
Ah... ok.
In this case, while historically that's been true... I'm not quite sure how it will affect the exchange prices as we are talking about something around the price of a Lifer Sub. Its a bit out of the range of most casuals and even a lot of the people who grind things out.
I grind things out and I'm looking at that amount like "uh... guys? You really expect me to spend an entire year grinding this out?"
I think I'll wait for the individual releases down the road.
People will always find alternate ways
Except that the alternate accounts would not have access to the main account's unlocks including ships for admiralty and x Recruit reward boxes so farming would go more slowly. Also, the zen would be split by account with no easy way to transfer it.
Nothing can stop farming, but an account-wide refinement cap would limit dil inflation from farmers.
I'm not saying it should happen. I'm just saying don't be surprised if it happens the next time Cryptic looks at ways to reduce the dil supply.
I also don't buy that a 20K cap would spell DOOM! since most players have 3 or fewer captains (as of a dev statement a year or two ago, or was it an infographic from '17 - '19?). Most players would be able to refine more when they had a spike from reputations or events with that kind of cap in place of the current 8K. They would see it as a benefit.
if not wrong cryptic had added the option to buy a ship as gift - if I am not wrong(cant log right now) then they could gather dill and covert it to zen, buy as gift to their other account
the other way they can use this is putting dill in their own fleet
If there are individual releases though...so far it seems like the Devs have hinted that wont be the case. Besides if they listed things like the Discovery Connie as a single purchase I can see that sucker likely going for more than even the Vizier
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Thanks for the reply.
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