> @azrael605 said: > > @thegrandnagus1 said: > > (Quote) > > > > So...why did you bring up other people's opinions if you don't care about them? > > Why does that matter to you? Seriously though, it is a response to the rant above my post, to the literal hundreds of times in the last year that I have been insulted for refusing to agree with people trash talking JJ, Rian Johnson, The Last Jedi, etc. Such bullies deserve to know they will not win with me.
To be fair most critics I've seen focus on critism of the movie and its makers, not its fans, but fans of the movie in as nasty a way as possible.
And I say that as an uninterested 3rd party who is NOT a Star Wars fan at all.
My hopes for Star Wars would be to take the budget of the next Trilogy and the next Star Wars series and put it towards an Andromeda Ascendant trilogy of Movies and TVs shows instead. Even the worst season of Andromeda is better then anything from Star Wars.
Some points of interest here, and now there are spoilers involved but given the thread title this is obvious.
The wntire new trilogy shares the same problem, but it's not as obvious anywhere else as it is here: Why are there so many plot points brought up which get completely ignored a second later?
We established that under the First Order, Stormtroopers are child soldiers, kidnapped and brainwashed. This is obviously a big point in the first film and now it is brought up again. Yet, neither Finn, nor the other liberated Troopers NOR THE SQUALING JEDIS ever question killing them all just for one second - and they could have done a lot to avoid unnecessary deaths. Rey is able to do the mind trick even! This wasn't a big issue in the original trilogy since we just assumed they were evil henchmen, the prequel trilogy made them clones but now? This could have been a HUGE plot point, companies of Troopers turning against the Order and help fight alongside the free people. But nope. Not for a moment. The new Troopers we meet stay nameless with one exception, and their plot thread leads nowhere.
What was the point of C3PO losing his memories translating the Sith inscription? Especially since R2 restroes his memories a bit later. This lead absolutely nowhere and it wasn't a big sacrifice either since it's undone later.
Chewies (presumed) death. Yes, Rey doesn't know he is still alive (contrary to literally everyone watching the film ) but they don't even pretend to keep the suspense for longer than five minutes. My wife and I were actually making fun of this as we were watching, picturing Disney being too afraid to have people walking out of the cinema at that point, so they immediately calm the rage. "You can sit down again, he's alright! Keep watching!".
Poes past contributes nothing aside from having a new ally out of nowhere with a magic get out of jail free card. The film is terribly afraid of adding depth to anything it touches and instead just throws plot elements at us.
The entire first act is horribly rushed and feels like a montage or trailer. Super short scenes of Kylo and the Rebels doing "something" to rapidly advance the plot, but we never have seen or heard anything about the Sith world, the magic compass thingies to get there, who Kylo is fighting to get them and so on. The original trilogy was more coherent than that and felt like an actual journey, with a strong chemistry within the party. Here we just rush through scenes - the first film of the new trilogy actually did this a lot better.
Does Rey actually laugh just once in this one? She's just that super serious not-really-a-jedi-jedi constantly wandering off to leave her party to fail whatever they are doing.
Resurrections. Seriously. How many times can people die and be force-healed back again? The final arc with Kylo and Rey just dying and healing each other again like three times was ridiculous. And their kiss was completely unnecessary, and incredibly cheesey.
Kylo becoming Ben again, just to die an unnecessary death. I would have preferred Ben surviving and being the rising Skywalker, honestly. Rey wouldn't have to die either.
Ben doesn't even gets to return as a force ghost? Why? Have Luke, Leia, Han and Ben appear in the last scene together at the very least.
Why does Rey return to Tatooine? This isn't where the Skywalkers are from. It's just to show us the old set of the house again. Fine nostalgic moment, but doesn't make sense.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
None of what Phoenix said is accurate. Nor does it match any available actual facts. Just as always he is spreading fanon and anecdotes told fifth hand that do not match the first hand facts.
If you want to believe all Hollywood people always lie in behind the scenes interviews and nothing is ever how they say it was then that is your prerogative, but the unusual way the original trilogy is scripted and plotted for the time it was made actually supports those "anecdotes told fifth hand" as you put it, so it does "match the first hand facts".
And, just for the sake of argument, even if Lucas and everyone else did for some weird reason lie about how it came about, the original trilogy still is structured in the odd hero echo way which is absent from the other two trilogies which makes them a bit flat in comparison.
I think they might have tried setting up a situation like that in TFA but they probably did not understand it and failed to "steal the right parts" (as Abrams puts the practice in his TED talk) so it fell flat. Maybe they thought the anecdotes were a lie too.
Or on the other hand, maybe they knew it was not a lie (they had Lucas right there to talk to) but blew the "steal" by making both Rey and Finn exploited orphans without enough contrast between the two, especially since they followed current Hollywood trends by making Rey operate in a sort of watered-down "angsty action hero" mode instead of a networking strategic one like Leia did in ANH. Without enough contrast the 'echo' does not work properly (though too much is just as bad, the hard part is getting the right balance). There are a lot of things they could have done with Rey to accomplish that, but like a lot of other points in the Disney stuff they went for the kneejerk one and did the Luke analog option instead.
Personally, I think that since they insist on doing a kind of rehash instead of something entirely new that built on the original trilogy, it would have been great symmetry if they would have had Rey and Finn sort of mirror the original but have the story told from the Leia analog's point of view this time around (with her the stronger of the two this time, which would fit the mythology as well as the symmetry angles).
I enjoyed the film. A lot. If you haven't yet seen it, and you like Star Wars, please go see The Rise of Skywalker ASAP. Before you read anything about it on any film critic site or here. You have a brain. You like science fiction else you wouldn't be reading this. Do something radical! Make up your own mind. Without interference from the InterWebs. It's what we used to do in the old days. In 1977, a fifteen year old did just this. Based solely on what he saw in the tv commercials and the posters outside the movie theater. I've never regretted making this choice and I never will. I made the same choice this weekend. I was delighted and pleased to find out once again I made the correct one.
The best part for me? Annoying the keyboard hipster/warriors around here by posting this.
The Internet has nearly completely ruined science fiction films and series. Everyone hates everything about every one of them. Because everyone considers themselves both the One True Fan and the One True Expert at the same time. They insist on pointing these out as publicly as possible as often as possible to those of us who do not care.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
The best part for me? Annoying the keyboard hipster/warriors around here by posting this.
I agree with everything you said except this part. It's definitely sad that some people can't dislike a movie without trying to ruin it for those that enjoy it(like you). But it's equally sad that you can't enjoy the movie without wanting to upset/provoke other people who may not like it. Both types of behavior are sad, and bad for fandom.
Are we finally discussing spoilers? Just a small note on the ending.
The canon Marvel comics Darth Vader #25 states that Palpatine created Anakin, and thus the Skywalker bloodline, therefore the final scene is quite appropriate.
What do you mean by created? Rey and Ben kissing could be almost as bad as Leia and Luke kissing since they would be kissing cousins instead of kissing siblings.
> starkaos said:
> (Quote)
>
> What do you mean by created? Rey and Ben kissing could be almost as bad as Leia and Luke kissing since they would be kissing cousins instead of kissing siblings.
I mean he used the force to make Shmi pregnant with no father. The technique he talked about in Revenge of the Sith created by Darth Plaigus (not sure on the spelling). In fact Darth Vader #25 is a canonization of a deleted scene from Revenge of the Sith. Which does mean there is no genetic relationship between Rey and Ben.
So it is not as bad as Leia and Luke kissing, but it could get a bunch of Christians angry. Although, it would be interesting to see where Anakin got his Y chromosome. So if Palpatine used his DNA to create Anakin, then Rey and Ben are still related.
It was implied that mundane considerations like genetics were taken care of by the Force. Maybe it rewrote an existing X-string into a Y to get a male offspring, or maybe it used a copy of the Y string from the human form of "The Son" or whatever, or the physical starter cells could have coalesced from pure Force energy. Lots of different possibilities from the vagueness of the reference in the story.
The best part for me? Annoying the keyboard hipster/warriors around here by posting this.
I agree with everything you said except this part. Someone that can't enjoy something without wanting to upset other people has serious problems. And obviously, the same is true of those who can't "not enjoy" something without trying to ruin it for everyone else.
I never said I was perfect. Although I am guilty as charged as regards being human. As to "serious problems"? When you post your degree in psychology here, then you get to judge me and my actions or thoughts.
And thank you so very much for so successfully proving my point about keyboard warriors. And keyboard Ph.D's as well.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
I'm going to assume by "christian" you mean those same psychos that said Kirk comitted beastiality in Into Darkness because the women he was in bed with had tails. I have personally never met anyone like that, especially the ones in my family like my mother who theorizes that Noah's Ark was a spaceship.
As for the DNA factor, since Palpatine never made physical contact with Shmi it would be far easier to manipulate one of her X chromosomes into a Y, in sort of the reverse of how X-23 was made from Wolverine's DNA.
According to Christianity, God created Jesus Christ by somehow impregnating Mary remotely while Palpatine did the same thing with Shmi to create Anakin. Which could annoy some Christians since that is comparing Jesus Christ to Darth Vader and Palpatine to God. So Shmi is the Virgin Mother. Although, those Christians that stated that Kirk committed bestiality are insane since there is a huge difference between someone that commits bestiality and a xenophiliac like Kirk and Riker. After all an alien is able to give consent while an animal can't. Although, it would be interesting to see what religions will do if First Contact is established. I imagine that some will condemn xenophilia while others will state that they are all God's children.
Creating X-23 from Wolverine's DNA is not the same since X-23 only needs Wolverine's X Chromosome while Palpatine would need to create a Y chromosome for Anakin. As far as how difficult it is to perform remote genetic engineering with the Force, it is the same amount of difficulty to alter an X Chromosome into a Y chromosome as it is to insert modified DNA. Palpatine had to insert some genetic material into Shmi since changing just a X chromosome into a Y chromosome is not enough to create one of the most powerful Force users.
The best part for me? Annoying the keyboard hipster/warriors around here by posting this.
I agree with everything you said except this part. Someone that can't enjoy something without wanting to upset other people has serious problems. And obviously, the same is true of those who can't "not enjoy" something without trying to ruin it for everyone else.
I never said I was perfect. Although I am guilty as charged as regards being human. As to "serious problems"? When you post your degree in psychology here, then you get to judge me and my actions or thoughts.
And thank you so very much for so successfully proving my point about keyboard warriors. And keyboard Ph.D's as well.
You know, you're right. The "serious problems" comment was wrong of me and I apologize. I've updated my earlier post accordingly, with no mention of any "problems".
I enjoyed the film. A lot. If you haven't yet seen it, and you like Star Wars, please go see The Rise of Skywalker ASAP. Before you read anything about it on any film critic site or here. You have a brain. You like science fiction else you wouldn't be reading this. Do something radical! Make up your own mind. Without interference from the InterWebs. It's what we used to do in the old days. In 1977, a fifteen year old did just this. Based solely on what he saw in the tv commercials and the posters outside the movie theater. I've never regretted making this choice and I never will. I made the same choice this weekend. I was delighted and pleased to find out once again I made the correct one.
The best part for me? Annoying the keyboard hipster/warriors around here by posting this.
The Internet has nearly completely ruined science fiction films and series. Everyone hates everything about every one of them. Because everyone considers themselves both the One True Fan and the One True Expert at the same time. They insist on pointing these out as publicly as possible as often as possible to those of us who do not care.
There's so many reviews of everything these days, all of which act like they're vitally important. I think most of it is just that the critics NEED attention or they're irrelevant. But people don't pay enough attention unless you're screaming warnings about how bad something is.
Force sensitivity isn't determined by DNA, it is determined by Midichloreans, a symbiotic microorganism. Palpatine could quite easily imbue the embryo with a high level of Midichloreans through the Force. Palpatine specified that Plaigus's technique manipulated Midichloreans in Revenge of the Sith.
I also did not say that it was the same as X-23, I said it was somewhat like the reverse of how X-23 was created, a rough analogy.
DNA does play a role in Force Sensitivity or else Luke, Leia, and Ben wouldn't be Force Sensitive and Rey wouldn't be so powerful as Palpatine's Granddaughter. We would just have random people being Jedi and Sith with absolutely no blood relations.
Guys, does the comic in question actually go into that much specific detail on "DNA" vs "Midichlorians"? Or does it simply say that Palpatine used the force to create Anakin? Because if it's the latter that is obviously vague enough that there is no one "correct" version of how it happened. Of course, if the comic does get into that specific detail please quote the exact statements so we will have the actual "facts".
I decided to answer my own question and grab a digital copy of the comic. The answer is NO, it definitely does NOT go into any specifics. No mention of DNA or Midichlorians at all. Furthermore, everything in the comic is dream/vision that Vader has while knocked unconscious, leaving the reader to determine whether everything shown was literal or not.
I also decided to do some "google research" on this comic and the writers of the comic say "the dark side is not a reliable narrator". Scroll down to the tweet chain in this article from the writers of the comic:
i won't lie, i would actually like to see someone pull off even a tenth the TRIBBLE starkiller pulled off in TFU onscreen somewhere...but not make a habit out of it
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
i don't suppose that star destroyer was named in that novel, was it? the only star destroyer i could find that had any mention of rey scavenging from it was the Interrogator - but its WP page says nothing about luke being the cause of it crashing
so either its page just hasn't been updated yet or it was a different, possibly unnamed, star destroyer and rey's salvaged from more than one
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
i don't suppose that star destroyer was named in that novel, was it? the only star destroyer i could find that had any mention of rey scavenging from it was the Interrogator - but its WP page says nothing about luke being the cause of it crashing
so either its page just hasn't been updated yet or it was a different, possibly unnamed, star destroyer and rey's salvaged from more than one
I was thinking of the one we see her crawling around inside on Jakku?
Comments
> > @thegrandnagus1 said:
> > (Quote)
> >
> > So...why did you bring up other people's opinions if you don't care about them?
>
> Why does that matter to you? Seriously though, it is a response to the rant above my post, to the literal hundreds of times in the last year that I have been insulted for refusing to agree with people trash talking JJ, Rian Johnson, The Last Jedi, etc. Such bullies deserve to know they will not win with me.
To be fair most critics I've seen focus on critism of the movie and its makers, not its fans, but fans of the movie in as nasty a way as possible.
And I say that as an uninterested 3rd party who is NOT a Star Wars fan at all.
My hopes for Star Wars would be to take the budget of the next Trilogy and the next Star Wars series and put it towards an Andromeda Ascendant trilogy of Movies and TVs shows instead. Even the worst season of Andromeda is better then anything from Star Wars.
The wntire new trilogy shares the same problem, but it's not as obvious anywhere else as it is here: Why are there so many plot points brought up which get completely ignored a second later?
We established that under the First Order, Stormtroopers are child soldiers, kidnapped and brainwashed. This is obviously a big point in the first film and now it is brought up again. Yet, neither Finn, nor the other liberated Troopers NOR THE SQUALING JEDIS ever question killing them all just for one second - and they could have done a lot to avoid unnecessary deaths. Rey is able to do the mind trick even! This wasn't a big issue in the original trilogy since we just assumed they were evil henchmen, the prequel trilogy made them clones but now? This could have been a HUGE plot point, companies of Troopers turning against the Order and help fight alongside the free people. But nope. Not for a moment. The new Troopers we meet stay nameless with one exception, and their plot thread leads nowhere.
What was the point of C3PO losing his memories translating the Sith inscription? Especially since R2 restroes his memories a bit later. This lead absolutely nowhere and it wasn't a big sacrifice either since it's undone later.
Chewies (presumed) death. Yes, Rey doesn't know he is still alive (contrary to literally everyone watching the film
Poes past contributes nothing aside from having a new ally out of nowhere with a magic get out of jail free card. The film is terribly afraid of adding depth to anything it touches and instead just throws plot elements at us.
The entire first act is horribly rushed and feels like a montage or trailer. Super short scenes of Kylo and the Rebels doing "something" to rapidly advance the plot, but we never have seen or heard anything about the Sith world, the magic compass thingies to get there, who Kylo is fighting to get them and so on. The original trilogy was more coherent than that and felt like an actual journey, with a strong chemistry within the party. Here we just rush through scenes - the first film of the new trilogy actually did this a lot better.
Does Rey actually laugh just once in this one? She's just that super serious not-really-a-jedi-jedi constantly wandering off to leave her party to fail whatever they are doing.
Resurrections. Seriously. How many times can people die and be force-healed back again? The final arc with Kylo and Rey just dying and healing each other again like three times was ridiculous. And their kiss was completely unnecessary, and incredibly cheesey.
Kylo becoming Ben again, just to die an unnecessary death. I would have preferred Ben surviving and being the rising Skywalker, honestly. Rey wouldn't have to die either.
Ben doesn't even gets to return as a force ghost? Why? Have Luke, Leia, Han and Ben appear in the last scene together at the very least.
Why does Rey return to Tatooine? This isn't where the Skywalkers are from. It's just to show us the old set of the house again. Fine nostalgic moment, but doesn't make sense.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If you want to believe all Hollywood people always lie in behind the scenes interviews and nothing is ever how they say it was then that is your prerogative, but the unusual way the original trilogy is scripted and plotted for the time it was made actually supports those "anecdotes told fifth hand" as you put it, so it does "match the first hand facts".
And, just for the sake of argument, even if Lucas and everyone else did for some weird reason lie about how it came about, the original trilogy still is structured in the odd hero echo way which is absent from the other two trilogies which makes them a bit flat in comparison.
I think they might have tried setting up a situation like that in TFA but they probably did not understand it and failed to "steal the right parts" (as Abrams puts the practice in his TED talk) so it fell flat. Maybe they thought the anecdotes were a lie too.
Or on the other hand, maybe they knew it was not a lie (they had Lucas right there to talk to) but blew the "steal" by making both Rey and Finn exploited orphans without enough contrast between the two, especially since they followed current Hollywood trends by making Rey operate in a sort of watered-down "angsty action hero" mode instead of a networking strategic one like Leia did in ANH. Without enough contrast the 'echo' does not work properly (though too much is just as bad, the hard part is getting the right balance). There are a lot of things they could have done with Rey to accomplish that, but like a lot of other points in the Disney stuff they went for the kneejerk one and did the Luke analog option instead.
Personally, I think that since they insist on doing a kind of rehash instead of something entirely new that built on the original trilogy, it would have been great symmetry if they would have had Rey and Finn sort of mirror the original but have the story told from the Leia analog's point of view this time around (with her the stronger of the two this time, which would fit the mythology as well as the symmetry angles).
The best part for me? Annoying the keyboard hipster/warriors around here by posting this.
The Internet has nearly completely ruined science fiction films and series. Everyone hates everything about every one of them. Because everyone considers themselves both the One True Fan and the One True Expert at the same time. They insist on pointing these out as publicly as possible as often as possible to those of us who do not care.
I agree with everything you said except this part. It's definitely sad that some people can't dislike a movie without trying to ruin it for those that enjoy it(like you). But it's equally sad that you can't enjoy the movie without wanting to upset/provoke other people who may not like it. Both types of behavior are sad, and bad for fandom.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
What do you mean by created? Rey and Ben kissing could be almost as bad as Leia and Luke kissing since they would be kissing cousins instead of kissing siblings.
So it is not as bad as Leia and Luke kissing, but it could get a bunch of Christians angry. Although, it would be interesting to see where Anakin got his Y chromosome. So if Palpatine used his DNA to create Anakin, then Rey and Ben are still related.
I never said I was perfect. Although I am guilty as charged as regards being human. As to "serious problems"? When you post your degree in psychology here, then you get to judge me and my actions or thoughts.
And thank you so very much for so successfully proving my point about keyboard warriors. And keyboard Ph.D's as well.
According to Christianity, God created Jesus Christ by somehow impregnating Mary remotely while Palpatine did the same thing with Shmi to create Anakin. Which could annoy some Christians since that is comparing Jesus Christ to Darth Vader and Palpatine to God. So Shmi is the Virgin Mother. Although, those Christians that stated that Kirk committed bestiality are insane since there is a huge difference between someone that commits bestiality and a xenophiliac like Kirk and Riker. After all an alien is able to give consent while an animal can't. Although, it would be interesting to see what religions will do if First Contact is established. I imagine that some will condemn xenophilia while others will state that they are all God's children.
Creating X-23 from Wolverine's DNA is not the same since X-23 only needs Wolverine's X Chromosome while Palpatine would need to create a Y chromosome for Anakin. As far as how difficult it is to perform remote genetic engineering with the Force, it is the same amount of difficulty to alter an X Chromosome into a Y chromosome as it is to insert modified DNA. Palpatine had to insert some genetic material into Shmi since changing just a X chromosome into a Y chromosome is not enough to create one of the most powerful Force users.
You know, you're right. The "serious problems" comment was wrong of me and I apologize. I've updated my earlier post accordingly, with no mention of any "problems".
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My character Tsin'xing
DNA does play a role in Force Sensitivity or else Luke, Leia, and Ben wouldn't be Force Sensitive and Rey wouldn't be so powerful as Palpatine's Granddaughter. We would just have random people being Jedi and Sith with absolutely no blood relations.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I also decided to do some "google research" on this comic and the writers of the comic say "the dark side is not a reliable narrator". Scroll down to the tweet chain in this article from the writers of the comic:
https://movieweb.com/did-palpatine-create-anakin-skywalker-star-wars/
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
so either its page just hasn't been updated yet or it was a different, possibly unnamed, star destroyer and rey's salvaged from more than one
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My character Tsin'xing