'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You want to be an elitist and exclude people based on your prejudging of their gear alone.
Seems pretty insulting to me but moving along.
You think it is insulting to have what you have already claimed to do simply restated? And you still think its an insult when I specifically say "you do you" a couple sentences later?
There are also times and places aside from reasons I have given so far when knowing someone's build or what they're doing can actually give you more insight into your own numbers.
Sure, and what are you going to do with inspect? You sit there during the queue and inspect them to find out while parsing is not finished and you haven't recognized that there is a discrepency? Obviously not. You won't notice this till after the fact so you've still got no choice but to talk to them and ask them to let you inspect them.
I don't have enough to know the exact mark and grade of their gear no, but I can still dissect the other 90% of the build.
Of course you can, but that takes time to sift through the parser, time to look at their buff bar, time that someone who just wants to be an anti-social jerk probably won't spend. It also doesn't tell you oddities like having 6 phaser arrays with one of them mk 15 gold and the rest mk 12 green, does it? And again you're satisfying this curiosity after the fact, when the queue is done and everyone has moved on, preventing you from actually inspecting them or reading their buff bar, unless you sit there and inspect them during the queue.
In regards to your mk vi console example, unless they're just filling the slot so they have something vs nothing, a veteran player isn't going to slap a mk vi console on a ship when they can get better.
If I'm leveling a console/weapon/whatever and oops, ran out of dilithium to upgrade it, well yeah its stuck at whatever mark it is till I get more. Sure I could probably go do a mission and get a higher one, but then I might forget and upgrade that one, so I better keep the project console slotted so I know what I'm working on. When everything else is mk12 or more it doesn't matter at all.
I've got a ship right now, a disruptor build, running a phaser DBB. Why? Its the wide beam disco rep DBB. It has no place on that ship, outside of one purpose, the set bonus. Knowing that you can pretty easily assume that its a placeholder until I get to tier 6 in that rep to get the disruptor version. You can wonder why I spent the marks and dil on it in the first place, and I can safely say it was a brain TRIBBLE. forgetting it wasn't the disruptor version, as I was excited about unlocking that tier to continue putting the planned build together. Yet even if you didn't understand why I have it, because I didn't tell you, it works plenty well for another reason.
I also have one turret on that ship. Its a 4/4 ship that is a forward firing build, so rather than a rear torpedo I want a turret with my omnis. Which turret? Well you would likely guess the 8472 rep turret and you'd be right. To get the 2 piece bonus to buff damage I've got to use a console if I'm not using the torpedo. Which one? Well that neat little tac console works out very well, buffing my disruptor and photon torpedo damage for the forward torpedo in the long term, but in the mean while it also helps the one silly phaser DBB with an equal damage buff.
As you would also notice if you knew what ship it was, the ship only has 3 tac consoles and you can already guess 2 of them based on set bonuses, so that one left that is presumably a disruptor console to buff most of my weapons at once, and thus the lack of phaser damage buffing compared to disruptor damage buffing from one console of difference isn't going to be a big difference.
You and I know its a perfectly cogent and workable build in that way and while obviously it will be a little better once I get tier 6 disco rep to replace that phaser DBB, mixing damage and weapon types like that isn't actually hurting it much at all right now, and there are perfectly good reasons to do it to get what I want out of the ship rather than say replacing the set DBB with a generic DBB.
I'm fairly sure you aren't the one who would bother me about it. No, it is the simpler minds that don't take the effort to actually look over the entirety of the build and only notice a phaser and a turret on what is otherwise a disruptor beam ship. Yes, anyone parsing would notice the discrepancy, and scanning my buffs they could know more, but they would also probably not have a problem with the damage output either.
Like I said before, I'm aware there will be people who would abuse an inspect feature and try to use it to shame someone. However they do that now even without one. Folks that are determined to troll and harass others will do so regardless of what features are present in the game or not. If we quit adding features to games just because a few people MIGHT abuse it, then virtually all development on anything new will cease. Some people use modern technology for some pretty vile and evil purposes, but just because those particular people choose to abuse it, is not a valid enough reason to stop developing new and better technologies. The best folks can do is try to implement the technology in a way to minimize the potential of that abuse. In this instance with the inspect, we already have the report and ignore functions if someone wants to try to harass someone and be a tool. If something is going on heaven forbid, and they don't say something or use the available features, they bear some responsibility at that point. Yes the other person shouldn't be a jerk and they bear the chief responsibility. At the same time folks have tools at their disposal if/when a situation arises and aren't as powerless as you're making it sound. Every feature in game has the potential to be abused in one way or another and those determined to troll will always find a way with or without this new feature.
Lastly, as I've said many times now, I don't see what's so unreasonable about expecting folks to be conscious at the keyboard. I don't expect folks to do a 70 bagillion DPS, but I do at least expect that if they're joining a queue that requires 30k minimum from everyone in the run, that they're able to pull that 30k. If they can't, then they're not ready for it and it just becomes a miserable experience for all. This is why I have pushed for tools so folks can have that information and better ways to share builds, such as the inspect function, so they can actually improve. Overall I still maintain the benefits outweigh the possible downsides.
Why should I have to ignore/report everyone who bothers me if inspect is implemented without a choice? Why is it not reasonable to simply add an opt in toggle to prevent the potential harassment the tool can cause?
Here again you're arguing for the mere existence of the tool, while even explicitly saying it should be designed to minimize abuse, which is precisely what I've been saying the entire time about the opt in/out toggle. Are you trolling me now? I'm not arguing against the existence of the tool, just for the option to toggle it on/off.
You're now arguing for that option implicitly with what I bolded above, so I'm now assuming you don't actually disagree with me at all, you're just lost in your wish for how useful the tool could be and trying to explain that.
Wasn't this supposed to be about an inspect feature so you could see what outfit or pieces of an outfit someone is wearing?
How did it become about the invasion of privacy of someone seeing all your darkest details of your build?
What level is it that you become offended by an invasion of privacy? If someone could tell what uniform you are wearing? Maybe what weapon you are carrying? What vanity shield your ship has? If it was just for looking at mainly space barbie stuff would that be such an invasion to anyone?
my god there are a lot of people in this thread with thier panties in a twist. how many times have you heard someone on this forum ask about "the cool weapon that looked like X", or in the OP's original post, an interest in what outfit someone is wearing. all of your outrage is not even comperable to the cat calls and whistles I have endured during the summer, in real life.. Honestly the folks on here who are screaming NO NO NOT EVER I ask one question.. what are you HIDING?
my god there are a lot of people in this thread with thier panties in a twist. how many times have you heard someone on this forum ask about "the cool weapon that looked like X", or in the OP's original post, an interest in what outfit someone is wearing. all of your outrage is not even comperable to the cat calls and whistles I have endured during the summer, in real life.. Honestly the folks on here who are screaming NO NO NOT EVER I ask one question.. what are you HIDING?
Well if i had my panties in a twist over this two things would have happened. The first being i would have taken up moonlighting as a drag queen. The second one being after looking in the mirror i would half to comment that the reflection would look like one ugly bearded lady.
I have no issue at all with a clothing list to show off just what you have on your toon. Neither do i see others objecting to or even for the most part talking about that. Even these walls of text between forum users is all about the right to see your build and probe every thing so i can exclude and offer unasked for build changes.
opt in/ opt out switch and on we go or as pointed out use a form post start build sharing no code needed and we can look at content. No issue no wast by devs time coding a unneeded feature.
Ok guys, why don't we all dial it back a couple of notches? This thread is on the verge of becoming a flaming mess.
It's clear we have two sides:
- one that wants and inspect feature and, in most cases, is not opposed to an opt in/opt out switch (with opt in being the default state, meaning "deactivated until the user decides to swith it on");
- one that absolutely does NOT want an inspect feature, with some people unfortunately ignoring the opt in/opt out switch proposed.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Honestly the folks on here who are screaming NO NO NOT EVER I ask one question.. what are you HIDING?
One could ask why you feel like you are entitled to it?
Realistically you're showing me that information already. Any time I look at your character I can see your costume. The only question is if I know the names of the individual parts. Which I can look up if I really want to know. SO I'm kinda gonna know either way.
... I have no issue at all with a clothing list to show off just what you have on your toon. Neither do i see others objecting to or even for the most part talking about that. ...
I haven't any issue with people being able to see what's on my ship. That's just a handful of standard parts I equip into a limited number of boxes on my ship.
A 'tailor' inspect on the other hand would be something very personal. My outfit is a highly personalized statement that I created in the tailor. What would people think about me if they found out that I had a feminine toon that used certain sliders or clothing items in particular ways? Or if I used colors that weren't complimentary? How about my alien? To think that somebody could 'clone' my uniqueness and that I could actually end up with a doppelganger of myself in-game just creeps me out.
Not only would I be judged by the in-game fashionistas (they're everywhere), it brings up visions of being strapped down and being forced to undergo DNA testing in real life.
... I have no issue at all with a clothing list to show off just what you have on your toon. Neither do i see others objecting to or even for the most part talking about that. ...
I haven't any issue with people being able to see what's on my ship. That's just a handful of standard parts I equip into a limited number of boxes on my ship.
A 'tailor' inspect on the other hand would be something very personal. My outfit is a highly personalized statement that I created in the tailor. What would people think about me if they found out that I had a feminine toon that used certain sliders or clothing items in particular ways? Or if I used colors that weren't complimentary? How about my alien? To think that somebody could 'clone' my uniqueness and that I could actually end up with a doppelganger of myself in-game just creeps me out.
Not only would I be judged by the in-game fashionistas (they're everywhere), it brings up visions of being strapped down and being forced to undergo DNA testing in real life.
I think you miss what i said. I in no way want a slider copy, color or any such thing of that nature. I don't mind a list saying o i am wearing x arm band and y boots that i currently have showing. But as to the look in face features, Bulk in the arm's, The shade of purple i use in my gamma armor. For the record i would not enjoy the copy of me running around like a clone. Last time i was in the tailor i had 77 different outfits saved. And i have yet to do much in mix and match with them.
If i see a person wearing a clothing option that i like say a pack or a belt, top i think may look good mixed in with my own style i find it a bit of a task to track down just what the item is from. so just a list of o its the 3 mirror outfits and a few rep parts tossed in that i am looking at. as far as i am concerned that would be it if a person wants the part of the outfit then they have narrowed down the search.
But i find the entire ideal a wast of time on the dev's part to even bother coding this. either i can ask the person or try and track down the part if i cant get an answer.
> @protoneous said: > (Quote) > I haven't any issue with people being able to see what's on my ship. That's just a handful of standard parts I equip into a limited number of boxes on my ship. > > A 'tailor' inspect on the other hand would be something very personal. My outfit is a highly personalized statement that I created in the tailor. What would people think about me if they found out that I had a feminine toon that used certain sliders or clothing items in particular ways? Or if I used colors that weren't complimentary? How about my alien? To think that somebody could 'clone' my uniqueness and that I could actually end up with a doppelganger of myself in-game just creeps me out. > > Not only would I be judged by the in-game fashionistas (they're everywhere), it brings up visions of being strapped down and being forced to undergo DNA testing in real life.
First off, way too much imagination there. The idea of the fashion inspect isn't to glean colours and details of the character, it's to see the name of a particular outfit piece...and that's it, no dna theft or probing needed...just the name of an outfit piece. Is that a violation?
Clearly folks on here have taken what was a simple question and created groundwork that it's a felony to even think about asking for.
Since nothing productive will come from this, @baddmoonrizin or @darkbladejk Please lock this down.
Sure, and what are you going to do with inspect? You sit there during the queue and inspect them to find out while parsing is not finished and you haven't recognized that there is a discrepency? Obviously not. You won't notice this till after the fact so you've still got no choice but to talk to them and ask them to let you inspect them.
On this point who I've been using tools like that for years and can quickly gather information that i need. Also assuming I did want to inspect someone while a queue is active, who said I'm incapable of looking over stuff in a window and fighting at the same time? No it wouldn't be ideal for obvious reasons, however assuming I did want to do it I'm more than capable, as are quite a few others. Not to toot my own horn but when you've played MMOs as long as I have you tend to pick up a few things and how to move much more quickly. Slightly more on this below in a moment.
Of course you can, but that takes time to sift through the parser, time to look at their buff bar, time that someone who just wants to be an anti-social jerk probably won't spend. It also doesn't tell you oddities like having 6 phaser arrays with one of them mk 15 gold and the rest mk 12 green, does it? And again you're satisfying this curiosity after the fact, when the queue is done and everyone has moved on, preventing you from actually inspecting them or reading their buff bar, unless you sit there and inspect them during the queue.
You don't need to be sitting still in other MMOs to inspect someone, so why would STO be different in that regard if a feature were to be implemented? As I said above when you've been playing MMOs as long as I have you learn to move quickly to dissect information. Also assuming I wanted to watch someone's buff bars, screencapture softwares are a thing and I have multiple of them on my rig. Sometimes I use them for bug testing purposes, sometimes for doing stuff on youtube if/when I post, and sometimes just for other fun shenanigans. If I want to read someone's buff bars all I need is the video in that regard. Also I keybinds out the aft shuttle bay. I'm using a Logitech G105 Keyboard and G13 Gamepad along with a Razor Naga 2014 edition mouse. So you can image the keybinds I get going. G13 I have mainly because I hurt my wrist several years back and it hurt to play most computer games more than 5 minutes without it since it had a built in wrist rest. Mostly those extra binds and stuff are used for bug hunting purposes as far as STO goes. There are instances in which I need to observe bars in real time and those extra binds help with that. Anyone can get a gamepad like that or a Tartarus pad and do it so it's not unique to me.
Like I said it doesn't tell me specifically what the mark and grade of the weapons are, though typically if one item does a boatload of damage it can show as a discrepancy in the parser and I can tell there's something different about that particular weapon.
If I'm leveling a console/weapon/whatever and oops, ran out of dilithium to upgrade it, well yeah its stuck at whatever mark it is till I get more. Sure I could probably go do a mission and get a higher one, but then I might forget and upgrade that one, so I better keep the project console slotted so I know what I'm working on. When everything else is mk12 or more it doesn't matter at all.
I've got a ship right now, a disruptor build, running a phaser DBB. Why? Its the wide beam disco rep DBB. It has no place on that ship, outside of one purpose, the set bonus. Knowing that you can pretty easily assume that its a placeholder until I get to tier 6 in that rep to get the disruptor version. You can wonder why I spent the marks and dil on it in the first place, and I can safely say it was a brain TRIBBLE. forgetting it wasn't the disruptor version, as I was excited about unlocking that tier to continue putting the planned build together. Yet even if you didn't understand why I have it, because I didn't tell you, it works plenty well for another reason.
I also have one turret on that ship. Its a 4/4 ship that is a forward firing build, so rather than a rear torpedo I want a turret with my omnis. Which turret? Well you would likely guess the 8472 rep turret and you'd be right. To get the 2 piece bonus to buff damage I've got to use a console if I'm not using the torpedo. Which one? Well that neat little tac console works out very well, buffing my disruptor and photon torpedo damage for the forward torpedo in the long term, but in the mean while it also helps the one silly phaser DBB with an equal damage buff.
As you would also notice if you knew what ship it was, the ship only has 3 tac consoles and you can already guess 2 of them based on set bonuses, so that one left that is presumably a disruptor console to buff most of my weapons at once, and thus the lack of phaser damage buffing compared to disruptor damage buffing from one console of difference isn't going to be a big difference.
You and I know its a perfectly cogent and workable build in that way and while obviously it will be a little better once I get tier 6 disco rep to replace that phaser DBB, mixing damage and weapon types like that isn't actually hurting it much at all right now, and there are perfectly good reasons to do it to get what I want out of the ship rather than say replacing the set DBB with a generic DBB.
I'm fairly sure you aren't the one who would bother me about it. No, it is the simpler minds that don't take the effort to actually look over the entirety of the build and only notice a phaser and a turret on what is otherwise a disruptor beam ship. Yes, anyone parsing would notice the discrepancy, and scanning my buffs they could know more, but they would also probably not have a problem with the damage output either.
There's several things on this particular block I think need to be clarified. In regards to the gear portion of it with the console. In that regard if you run out of dilithium and such at that low of a grade, why not spend all of 500k ec and get a cheapo to use as a placeholder? Personally I never swap a piece over until it's at least mk xii or outright ready to go. Virtually every other veteran player I've talked to does the same.
In regards to mixing energy types, the example you're giving and what I was talking about with someone running a full on rainbow build is not the same thing. What I was talking about are those builds that pretty much every weapon is a different damage type, nothing is consistent on the build, and the powers on the build aren't boosting anything they're running, like running FAW on a cannons build without even a single beam. The builds where it's obvious the person didn't do their proper research or is inexperienced. What you're talking about is using a singular off type weapon for its bonuses it grants you. On some builds I have used a singular Herald AP beam to cheese the proc on newer toons until I can get something more established.
Keep in mind on these points you're bringing up, I can see all of these different weapon types you're using on the parser data. If I look at your breakdown and I see your primary source of damage was disruptor, but you have that singular phaser on the build, then my assumption would be that you're running that dual bank with the tac console on the ship and haven't unlocked t6 in that rep to get the disruptor variant yet. No matter if they come across this via inspect or via the parsers, there will always be some people who look at it and don't understand why, and spout off due to their own lack of knowledge. Again this speaks more about them than it does the inspect feature or the parsers. Having one or perhaps two off energy type weapons on the ship for their bonuses isn't the same thing as what I was speaking on above. I've not seen your build so I couldn't give an on-paper estimate of what I think it would do. However going by what you've described here, I don't believe you would be one of the folks I would have an issue with.
Why should I have to ignore/report everyone who bothers me if inspect is implemented without a choice? Why is it not reasonable to simply add an opt in toggle to prevent the potential harassment the tool can cause?
Here again you're arguing for the mere existence of the tool, while even explicitly saying it should be designed to minimize abuse, which is precisely what I've been saying the entire time about the opt in/out toggle. Are you trolling me now? I'm not arguing against the existence of the tool, just for the option to toggle it on/off.
You're now arguing for that option implicitly with what I bolded above, so I'm now assuming you don't actually disagree with me at all, you're just lost in your wish for how useful the tool could be and trying to explain that.
On the first point of this block, the logic you're using there is like hating the current TV show that's on a particular channel yet refusing to change the channel. Or better yet, it's like having an issue with profanity yet refusing to turn on the profanity filter. You have a TV remote and profanity filter for those reasons. In terms of STO if someone is giving you grief or just annoying you in general, you can place them on ignore then pretend they don't exist. If it's severe enough or they've found a way to bypass the ignore, then you can report them and it WILL be dealt with appropriately. If you have an immediate solution to the problem, why would you not use it? In the few instances someone tried to give me grief in the earlier days of my STO career I simply put them on ignore. Same thing in SWTOR or WoW. "Oh you're a Death Knight running blood, don't you know frost is the tank spec. you noob." I would ignore them or make them look dumb by outperforming them. Point being, you are given such tools for exactly those reasons. The same logic would apply even if inspect was a thing and you had the opt in/out portion of it. If someone is giving you grief about what they see on your inspect page, then turn it off and/or put them on ignore. Why complain if you're not willing to do anything about it on your end or by asking for help if needed? Also I am not saying they can't add an opt in/out. More on this below.
On the next point, I have no desire to troll here. If for sake of argument I did want to troll someone, I would be alot more creative than this thread. I'm also not saying an opt in/out can't exist. In the bolded section of my post you quoted I am NOT arguing for an opt in/out feature to a potential inspect function. I'm not opposed to it existing, but I'm NOT advocating for it. In that section you quoted, I am acknowledging the reality that no feature is 100% abuse free and the best anyone can do is try to implement means to try to reduce that abuse potential. If you want to say an opt in/out feature is such a tech, that we can have a specific debate about. Overall I am doing 2 things, first I am advocating for the implementation of an inspect feature. Second I am also questioning why folks want an opt in/out feature, and questioning the need for its existence since you've already consented to giving away up to 90% of the data needed to determine your build anyways. I am not saying it can't exist, I am questioning the need for its existence. To me that's like making a build page showcasing my Vaadwaur Juggernaut tank build, then getting mad at people for viewing that page. At that point why get mad since I already consented to give away the data?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Having colored text next to your name is not an auto-exemption from being misinformed.
Once again you are NOT the sole authority on who is properly informed and who isn't. Nor are you the sole authority on who is ignorant and who isn't. You can change the wording around as much as you wish, but it remains the same. Disagreeing with you does not make someone misinformed, ignorant, or whatever other word you choose to use.
Please feel free to quote where I expressly stated I am the authority on common sense and anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant. By the way, suggesting that I don't read what you wrote and should read it again "slowly" is coming off as insulting to me.
You're really going to try and say that there will not be people outraged by an inspect feature? Really? How completely and utterly ignorant can you be? You're a mod. You're part of the group maintaining the F.C.T. Just look at some of the topics covered there.
I'm not going to continue to argue with you over semantics and this particular point. This following bit will be the last time I comment on this particular bit. When you frame your argument as being "common sense" as you did originally, you are insinuating anyone who opposes the argument is against "common sense." When you make statements like the second one I quoted, you are insinuating that it's ignorance to disagree with you on that point and you are an authority on what is ignorant and what isn't. I also told you to read what I said again slowly, because I never suggested there wouldn't be people outraged. There's going to be people outraged no matter what the devs do. So with that said, I advise you to avoid such statements in the future while you're ahead.
What about a negative impact on the player themselves?
You would need to demonstrate what this negative impact would be. You would as well need to demonstrate how the inspect feature itself is at fault and not just someone being a tool by abusing the feature, and how the current system would be insufficient to handle the issue without needing a special feature attached with it. Again people try to abuse people now with or without an inspect feature. That alone is not reason enough to withhold the tool.
No, no one consented to displaying their build or gear choices to other players when they join a TF. They consented to join a TF and have fun. Perhaps you should re-read the first few replies others have made here again. There was no objection to reading a character bio or costume. Build choices are entirely different and they would like it kept to themselves.
No, people do not consent to giving away any data to any other player if they join a TF. You might be running a third product product to collect and parse the combat logs, but in no way did anyone joining a random TFO consent to you using it. You took away their choice and consented for them. That is putting your curiosity and wants above theirs. That says a lot.
When you join a TFO it's possible for the team to see your buff bars, health bar, what weapons you're firing, boff powers, and so on, and for you to see theirs. It's also possible that someone in the run could be running a combat log file to calculate damage. This has been the standard in MMOs for the past 20+ years, and many team based games, and STO is no exception. If one has been playing MMOs for more than a day or even heard of them, then one should already be aware of this fact before joining a TFO. When you join a TFO you are acknowledging that all of those things may be taking place and are telling the system to put you into the run anyways. At that point you have given consent to the fact those things can be taking place, and as such your permission to view the combat log is NOT needed.
Secondly on this point, the combat log file itself is NOT a 3rd party addon. The combat log file is text file that is generated by the game itself that I can start and stop at any time with the "/combatlog 1" and "combatlog 0" commands. All the third party parsers do is read the text in the file and calculate the numbers for you, instead of you having to do it all by hand. Again I do not need your permission or that of anyone else to read the log file. I have a right to know how well or not well I am doing in a queue. One person does NOT trump the right of the other 4 people to read combat logs they took and that are made available by the game itself. By joining the queue you were acknowledging that someone in the run, or multiple someone's could be parsing.
To try to say that using a parser is taking away people's choice to keep their builds private is like someone leaving their phone on speaker in a crowded shopping mall, then getting mad at everyone in there for "spying" on your conversation. It doesn't work like that. Like no, you shouldn't have had it on speaker if you didn't want to take the chance someone might hear, or you should have had the conversation in private via text or elsewhere.
This says a lot too. @foxrockssocks is right - it sounds very elitest. I'm sure that isn't your intent, but it does come off that way. Not everyone is a DPS chaser, nor does everyone want (or need) unsolicited "advice" from someone else about how they chose to play the game.
You do NOT and I repeat do NOT need to be a DPS chaser to do a respectable amount of damage to get through most content in the game. 30k dps will get you through any advanced or normal content in game, and even a couple of the lesser elites. For that matter 20k will get you there as well. One doesn't need to be doing a zillion DPS in order to contribute. The idea that one must be a DPS chaser to do damage is a huge myth in this game that I wish would die and burn in Grethor already. Most folks will not care about your damage as long as you're contributing something to the team.
If a queue requires 50k DPS and mk xii across the board to succeed, and the run fails because the 5th guy can't meet those basic standards set forth by the queue itself, then the rest of the team has every right to be mad at that person for not pulling their weight. They also have a right to say something and voice their frustrations about the matter, provided of course its kept civil. If the other 4 members of the team are meeting those demands, why should the 5th guy be exempt just because he's "playing for fun." Yes I want the 5th guy to have fun, but that 5th person's fun does not trump that of the other 4, and the opposite is true as well that the 4 do not trump the one. Thus there must be a balance of some sort, which is why I don't see it as unreasonable to expect a basic minimum amount of effort from people.
That's why I mentioned the example of the person in my fleet who keeps asking me to take them into a Korfez nearly everytime they're on. I know that person isn't ready, and so far have refused to improve themselves to get ready. Their excuse is the same as some of what I'm seeing "I play for fun, I don't chase DPS like you." I want that fleet member to have fun, but I'm also going to take the other 3 people into account and not subject them to a guaranteed failed run just because that person is not ready yet. I want that fleet member to be able to get into the queue, and promised to get a crew together just for that run when they prove they are ready for it. Queues like Korfez, HSE, and similar are queues where you have to bring your A game, or you will fail. Not all elites are like this, and I would say it's about half and half.
The moment their playing of the game begins to effect me, I have every right to say hold the phone. Simply because someone is "playing for fun" does not give them a criticism free pass.
Cannot tell you how many times I've been on TFs where I carried most of the DPS. Did not bother me in the slightest. I still got the marks I was after and other people enjoyed themselves. Nor would I ever suggest to anyone that they "aren't ready" for whatever content they want to try. That is not for me to decide and so long as they are having fun, more power to them. That's what is important, not parsing through combat logs to see who "doesn't have the right build".
If build information and sharing is that important, start a forum section for build sharing and allow people to post what they have there. You can link to the URL in your character profile. Problem solved with zero programming effort.
I don't care if people aren't doing as much DPS as I am as long as they're contributing to the team and meeting the basic requirements set forth by the queue itself. STO is extremely forgiving compared to other games out there and in most queues its only a 2% minimum damage requirement for the entire run, not sustained, but the entire run. In elite, 99% of the things that were optional in normal and advanced, are now automatic fail conditions. In Korfez if you don't have the output to clear the first wave of ships, you fail. In Brotherhood of the Sword, if you don't complete the objectives you fail. In Borg Disconnected, if you don't meet the objectives, you fail. The difference I'm seeing based on your statements between you and I, I don't care to tell people they're not ready for something if they're not. If the queue requires 50k dps and mk xii very rare across the board and they don't have that, I don't care to tell them they're not ready for the queue at that point, because that's a fact being established by the basic standards the queue itself sets. In that situation it's not me being an elitist, but stating the facts established by the game.
Continuing with that hypothetical example, in STO there are a ton of different ways to get to our hypothetical 50k and mk xii very rare across the board. I don't care if they do it via cannons, beams, torps, mines, all turrets, space wizardry or even in a shuttle. All I care about is that they have the gear and can do the 50k. I don't mind helping folks who need it, and have said that multiple times, as well as helped many people in my STO career.
Overall I simply see no reason why the feature shouldn't exist as there are already systems in place to deal with the downsides.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You think it is insulting to have what you have already claimed to do simply restated? And you still think its an insult when I specifically say "you do you" a couple sentences later?
Sure, and what are you going to do with inspect? You sit there during the queue and inspect them to find out while parsing is not finished and you haven't recognized that there is a discrepency? Obviously not. You won't notice this till after the fact so you've still got no choice but to talk to them and ask them to let you inspect them.
Of course you can, but that takes time to sift through the parser, time to look at their buff bar, time that someone who just wants to be an anti-social jerk probably won't spend. It also doesn't tell you oddities like having 6 phaser arrays with one of them mk 15 gold and the rest mk 12 green, does it? And again you're satisfying this curiosity after the fact, when the queue is done and everyone has moved on, preventing you from actually inspecting them or reading their buff bar, unless you sit there and inspect them during the queue.
If I'm leveling a console/weapon/whatever and oops, ran out of dilithium to upgrade it, well yeah its stuck at whatever mark it is till I get more. Sure I could probably go do a mission and get a higher one, but then I might forget and upgrade that one, so I better keep the project console slotted so I know what I'm working on. When everything else is mk12 or more it doesn't matter at all.
I've got a ship right now, a disruptor build, running a phaser DBB. Why? Its the wide beam disco rep DBB. It has no place on that ship, outside of one purpose, the set bonus. Knowing that you can pretty easily assume that its a placeholder until I get to tier 6 in that rep to get the disruptor version. You can wonder why I spent the marks and dil on it in the first place, and I can safely say it was a brain TRIBBLE. forgetting it wasn't the disruptor version, as I was excited about unlocking that tier to continue putting the planned build together. Yet even if you didn't understand why I have it, because I didn't tell you, it works plenty well for another reason.
I also have one turret on that ship. Its a 4/4 ship that is a forward firing build, so rather than a rear torpedo I want a turret with my omnis. Which turret? Well you would likely guess the 8472 rep turret and you'd be right. To get the 2 piece bonus to buff damage I've got to use a console if I'm not using the torpedo. Which one? Well that neat little tac console works out very well, buffing my disruptor and photon torpedo damage for the forward torpedo in the long term, but in the mean while it also helps the one silly phaser DBB with an equal damage buff.
As you would also notice if you knew what ship it was, the ship only has 3 tac consoles and you can already guess 2 of them based on set bonuses, so that one left that is presumably a disruptor console to buff most of my weapons at once, and thus the lack of phaser damage buffing compared to disruptor damage buffing from one console of difference isn't going to be a big difference.
You and I know its a perfectly cogent and workable build in that way and while obviously it will be a little better once I get tier 6 disco rep to replace that phaser DBB, mixing damage and weapon types like that isn't actually hurting it much at all right now, and there are perfectly good reasons to do it to get what I want out of the ship rather than say replacing the set DBB with a generic DBB.
I'm fairly sure you aren't the one who would bother me about it. No, it is the simpler minds that don't take the effort to actually look over the entirety of the build and only notice a phaser and a turret on what is otherwise a disruptor beam ship. Yes, anyone parsing would notice the discrepancy, and scanning my buffs they could know more, but they would also probably not have a problem with the damage output either.
Why should I have to ignore/report everyone who bothers me if inspect is implemented without a choice? Why is it not reasonable to simply add an opt in toggle to prevent the potential harassment the tool can cause?
Here again you're arguing for the mere existence of the tool, while even explicitly saying it should be designed to minimize abuse, which is precisely what I've been saying the entire time about the opt in/out toggle. Are you trolling me now? I'm not arguing against the existence of the tool, just for the option to toggle it on/off.
You're now arguing for that option implicitly with what I bolded above, so I'm now assuming you don't actually disagree with me at all, you're just lost in your wish for how useful the tool could be and trying to explain that.
How did it become about the invasion of privacy of someone seeing all your darkest details of your build?
What level is it that you become offended by an invasion of privacy? If someone could tell what uniform you are wearing? Maybe what weapon you are carrying? What vanity shield your ship has?
If it was just for looking at mainly space barbie stuff would that be such an invasion to anyone?
I would put it on the same level as assault. 'Inspecting' somebody is a very serious matter, and you should not make light of it.
Well if i had my panties in a twist over this two things would have happened. The first being i would have taken up moonlighting as a drag queen. The second one being after looking in the mirror i would half to comment that the reflection would look like one ugly bearded lady.
I have no issue at all with a clothing list to show off just what you have on your toon. Neither do i see others objecting to or even for the most part talking about that. Even these walls of text between forum users is all about the right to see your build and probe every thing so i can exclude and offer unasked for build changes.
opt in/ opt out switch and on we go or as pointed out use a form post start build sharing no code needed and we can look at content. No issue no wast by devs time coding a unneeded feature.
It's clear we have two sides:
- one that wants and inspect feature and, in most cases, is not opposed to an opt in/opt out switch (with opt in being the default state, meaning "deactivated until the user decides to swith it on");
- one that absolutely does NOT want an inspect feature, with some people unfortunately ignoring the opt in/opt out switch proposed.
Maybe we should leave it at that, by asking either @baddmoonrizin or @darkbladejk to forward the idea/input/proposal/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to @ambassadorkael#6946?
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I'm not sure if the forum has 'notches', when it comes to disagreements; it seems to have 2 settings:
1: Veiled insult mode
2: Full on flamethrower mode
The internet is quite hilarious sometimes, you get to watch people arguing (quite passionately) about the most trivial of things.
My character Tsin'xing
A 'tailor' inspect on the other hand would be something very personal. My outfit is a highly personalized statement that I created in the tailor. What would people think about me if they found out that I had a feminine toon that used certain sliders or clothing items in particular ways? Or if I used colors that weren't complimentary? How about my alien? To think that somebody could 'clone' my uniqueness and that I could actually end up with a doppelganger of myself in-game just creeps me out.
Not only would I be judged by the in-game fashionistas (they're everywhere), it brings up visions of being strapped down and being forced to undergo DNA testing in real life.
I think you miss what i said. I in no way want a slider copy, color or any such thing of that nature. I don't mind a list saying o i am wearing x arm band and y boots that i currently have showing. But as to the look in face features, Bulk in the arm's, The shade of purple i use in my gamma armor. For the record i would not enjoy the copy of me running around like a clone. Last time i was in the tailor i had 77 different outfits saved. And i have yet to do much in mix and match with them.
If i see a person wearing a clothing option that i like say a pack or a belt, top i think may look good mixed in with my own style i find it a bit of a task to track down just what the item is from. so just a list of o its the 3 mirror outfits and a few rep parts tossed in that i am looking at. as far as i am concerned that would be it if a person wants the part of the outfit then they have narrowed down the search.
But i find the entire ideal a wast of time on the dev's part to even bother coding this. either i can ask the person or try and track down the part if i cant get an answer.
> (Quote)
> I haven't any issue with people being able to see what's on my ship. That's just a handful of standard parts I equip into a limited number of boxes on my ship.
>
> A 'tailor' inspect on the other hand would be something very personal. My outfit is a highly personalized statement that I created in the tailor. What would people think about me if they found out that I had a feminine toon that used certain sliders or clothing items in particular ways? Or if I used colors that weren't complimentary? How about my alien? To think that somebody could 'clone' my uniqueness and that I could actually end up with a doppelganger of myself in-game just creeps me out.
>
> Not only would I be judged by the in-game fashionistas (they're everywhere), it brings up visions of being strapped down and being forced to undergo DNA testing in real life.
First off, way too much imagination there.
The idea of the fashion inspect isn't to glean colours and details of the character, it's to see the name of a particular outfit piece...and that's it, no dna theft or probing needed...just the name of an outfit piece.
Is that a violation?
Since nothing productive will come from this, @baddmoonrizin or @darkbladejk Please lock this down.
On this point who I've been using tools like that for years and can quickly gather information that i need. Also assuming I did want to inspect someone while a queue is active, who said I'm incapable of looking over stuff in a window and fighting at the same time? No it wouldn't be ideal for obvious reasons, however assuming I did want to do it I'm more than capable, as are quite a few others. Not to toot my own horn but when you've played MMOs as long as I have you tend to pick up a few things and how to move much more quickly. Slightly more on this below in a moment.
You don't need to be sitting still in other MMOs to inspect someone, so why would STO be different in that regard if a feature were to be implemented? As I said above when you've been playing MMOs as long as I have you learn to move quickly to dissect information. Also assuming I wanted to watch someone's buff bars, screencapture softwares are a thing and I have multiple of them on my rig. Sometimes I use them for bug testing purposes, sometimes for doing stuff on youtube if/when I post, and sometimes just for other fun shenanigans. If I want to read someone's buff bars all I need is the video in that regard. Also I keybinds out the aft shuttle bay. I'm using a Logitech G105 Keyboard and G13 Gamepad along with a Razor Naga 2014 edition mouse. So you can image the keybinds I get going. G13 I have mainly because I hurt my wrist several years back and it hurt to play most computer games more than 5 minutes without it since it had a built in wrist rest. Mostly those extra binds and stuff are used for bug hunting purposes as far as STO goes. There are instances in which I need to observe bars in real time and those extra binds help with that. Anyone can get a gamepad like that or a Tartarus pad and do it so it's not unique to me.
Like I said it doesn't tell me specifically what the mark and grade of the weapons are, though typically if one item does a boatload of damage it can show as a discrepancy in the parser and I can tell there's something different about that particular weapon.
There's several things on this particular block I think need to be clarified. In regards to the gear portion of it with the console. In that regard if you run out of dilithium and such at that low of a grade, why not spend all of 500k ec and get a cheapo to use as a placeholder? Personally I never swap a piece over until it's at least mk xii or outright ready to go. Virtually every other veteran player I've talked to does the same.
In regards to mixing energy types, the example you're giving and what I was talking about with someone running a full on rainbow build is not the same thing. What I was talking about are those builds that pretty much every weapon is a different damage type, nothing is consistent on the build, and the powers on the build aren't boosting anything they're running, like running FAW on a cannons build without even a single beam. The builds where it's obvious the person didn't do their proper research or is inexperienced. What you're talking about is using a singular off type weapon for its bonuses it grants you. On some builds I have used a singular Herald AP beam to cheese the proc on newer toons until I can get something more established.
Keep in mind on these points you're bringing up, I can see all of these different weapon types you're using on the parser data. If I look at your breakdown and I see your primary source of damage was disruptor, but you have that singular phaser on the build, then my assumption would be that you're running that dual bank with the tac console on the ship and haven't unlocked t6 in that rep to get the disruptor variant yet. No matter if they come across this via inspect or via the parsers, there will always be some people who look at it and don't understand why, and spout off due to their own lack of knowledge. Again this speaks more about them than it does the inspect feature or the parsers. Having one or perhaps two off energy type weapons on the ship for their bonuses isn't the same thing as what I was speaking on above. I've not seen your build so I couldn't give an on-paper estimate of what I think it would do. However going by what you've described here, I don't believe you would be one of the folks I would have an issue with.
On the first point of this block, the logic you're using there is like hating the current TV show that's on a particular channel yet refusing to change the channel. Or better yet, it's like having an issue with profanity yet refusing to turn on the profanity filter. You have a TV remote and profanity filter for those reasons. In terms of STO if someone is giving you grief or just annoying you in general, you can place them on ignore then pretend they don't exist. If it's severe enough or they've found a way to bypass the ignore, then you can report them and it WILL be dealt with appropriately. If you have an immediate solution to the problem, why would you not use it? In the few instances someone tried to give me grief in the earlier days of my STO career I simply put them on ignore. Same thing in SWTOR or WoW. "Oh you're a Death Knight running blood, don't you know frost is the tank spec. you noob." I would ignore them or make them look dumb by outperforming them. Point being, you are given such tools for exactly those reasons. The same logic would apply even if inspect was a thing and you had the opt in/out portion of it. If someone is giving you grief about what they see on your inspect page, then turn it off and/or put them on ignore. Why complain if you're not willing to do anything about it on your end or by asking for help if needed? Also I am not saying they can't add an opt in/out. More on this below.
On the next point, I have no desire to troll here. If for sake of argument I did want to troll someone, I would be alot more creative than this thread. I'm also not saying an opt in/out can't exist. In the bolded section of my post you quoted I am NOT arguing for an opt in/out feature to a potential inspect function. I'm not opposed to it existing, but I'm NOT advocating for it. In that section you quoted, I am acknowledging the reality that no feature is 100% abuse free and the best anyone can do is try to implement means to try to reduce that abuse potential. If you want to say an opt in/out feature is such a tech, that we can have a specific debate about. Overall I am doing 2 things, first I am advocating for the implementation of an inspect feature. Second I am also questioning why folks want an opt in/out feature, and questioning the need for its existence since you've already consented to giving away up to 90% of the data needed to determine your build anyways. I am not saying it can't exist, I am questioning the need for its existence. To me that's like making a build page showcasing my Vaadwaur Juggernaut tank build, then getting mad at people for viewing that page. At that point why get mad since I already consented to give away the data?
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Once again you are NOT the sole authority on who is properly informed and who isn't. Nor are you the sole authority on who is ignorant and who isn't. You can change the wording around as much as you wish, but it remains the same. Disagreeing with you does not make someone misinformed, ignorant, or whatever other word you choose to use.
I'm not going to continue to argue with you over semantics and this particular point. This following bit will be the last time I comment on this particular bit. When you frame your argument as being "common sense" as you did originally, you are insinuating anyone who opposes the argument is against "common sense." When you make statements like the second one I quoted, you are insinuating that it's ignorance to disagree with you on that point and you are an authority on what is ignorant and what isn't. I also told you to read what I said again slowly, because I never suggested there wouldn't be people outraged. There's going to be people outraged no matter what the devs do. So with that said, I advise you to avoid such statements in the future while you're ahead.
You would need to demonstrate what this negative impact would be. You would as well need to demonstrate how the inspect feature itself is at fault and not just someone being a tool by abusing the feature, and how the current system would be insufficient to handle the issue without needing a special feature attached with it. Again people try to abuse people now with or without an inspect feature. That alone is not reason enough to withhold the tool.
When you join a TFO it's possible for the team to see your buff bars, health bar, what weapons you're firing, boff powers, and so on, and for you to see theirs. It's also possible that someone in the run could be running a combat log file to calculate damage. This has been the standard in MMOs for the past 20+ years, and many team based games, and STO is no exception. If one has been playing MMOs for more than a day or even heard of them, then one should already be aware of this fact before joining a TFO. When you join a TFO you are acknowledging that all of those things may be taking place and are telling the system to put you into the run anyways. At that point you have given consent to the fact those things can be taking place, and as such your permission to view the combat log is NOT needed.
Secondly on this point, the combat log file itself is NOT a 3rd party addon. The combat log file is text file that is generated by the game itself that I can start and stop at any time with the "/combatlog 1" and "combatlog 0" commands. All the third party parsers do is read the text in the file and calculate the numbers for you, instead of you having to do it all by hand. Again I do not need your permission or that of anyone else to read the log file. I have a right to know how well or not well I am doing in a queue. One person does NOT trump the right of the other 4 people to read combat logs they took and that are made available by the game itself. By joining the queue you were acknowledging that someone in the run, or multiple someone's could be parsing.
To try to say that using a parser is taking away people's choice to keep their builds private is like someone leaving their phone on speaker in a crowded shopping mall, then getting mad at everyone in there for "spying" on your conversation. It doesn't work like that. Like no, you shouldn't have had it on speaker if you didn't want to take the chance someone might hear, or you should have had the conversation in private via text or elsewhere.
You do NOT and I repeat do NOT need to be a DPS chaser to do a respectable amount of damage to get through most content in the game. 30k dps will get you through any advanced or normal content in game, and even a couple of the lesser elites. For that matter 20k will get you there as well. One doesn't need to be doing a zillion DPS in order to contribute. The idea that one must be a DPS chaser to do damage is a huge myth in this game that I wish would die and burn in Grethor already. Most folks will not care about your damage as long as you're contributing something to the team.
If a queue requires 50k DPS and mk xii across the board to succeed, and the run fails because the 5th guy can't meet those basic standards set forth by the queue itself, then the rest of the team has every right to be mad at that person for not pulling their weight. They also have a right to say something and voice their frustrations about the matter, provided of course its kept civil. If the other 4 members of the team are meeting those demands, why should the 5th guy be exempt just because he's "playing for fun." Yes I want the 5th guy to have fun, but that 5th person's fun does not trump that of the other 4, and the opposite is true as well that the 4 do not trump the one. Thus there must be a balance of some sort, which is why I don't see it as unreasonable to expect a basic minimum amount of effort from people.
That's why I mentioned the example of the person in my fleet who keeps asking me to take them into a Korfez nearly everytime they're on. I know that person isn't ready, and so far have refused to improve themselves to get ready. Their excuse is the same as some of what I'm seeing "I play for fun, I don't chase DPS like you." I want that fleet member to have fun, but I'm also going to take the other 3 people into account and not subject them to a guaranteed failed run just because that person is not ready yet. I want that fleet member to be able to get into the queue, and promised to get a crew together just for that run when they prove they are ready for it. Queues like Korfez, HSE, and similar are queues where you have to bring your A game, or you will fail. Not all elites are like this, and I would say it's about half and half.
The moment their playing of the game begins to effect me, I have every right to say hold the phone. Simply because someone is "playing for fun" does not give them a criticism free pass.
I don't care if people aren't doing as much DPS as I am as long as they're contributing to the team and meeting the basic requirements set forth by the queue itself. STO is extremely forgiving compared to other games out there and in most queues its only a 2% minimum damage requirement for the entire run, not sustained, but the entire run. In elite, 99% of the things that were optional in normal and advanced, are now automatic fail conditions. In Korfez if you don't have the output to clear the first wave of ships, you fail. In Brotherhood of the Sword, if you don't complete the objectives you fail. In Borg Disconnected, if you don't meet the objectives, you fail. The difference I'm seeing based on your statements between you and I, I don't care to tell people they're not ready for something if they're not. If the queue requires 50k dps and mk xii very rare across the board and they don't have that, I don't care to tell them they're not ready for the queue at that point, because that's a fact being established by the basic standards the queue itself sets. In that situation it's not me being an elitist, but stating the facts established by the game.
Continuing with that hypothetical example, in STO there are a ton of different ways to get to our hypothetical 50k and mk xii very rare across the board. I don't care if they do it via cannons, beams, torps, mines, all turrets, space wizardry or even in a shuttle. All I care about is that they have the gear and can do the 50k. I don't mind helping folks who need it, and have said that multiple times, as well as helped many people in my STO career.
Overall I simply see no reason why the feature shouldn't exist as there are already systems in place to deal with the downsides.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator