I do not consent to anyone attempting to peep on what I have for outfits/gear/traits/skills loadout, without asking. And if such a mechanic is instituted, there had better be one implemented with a "closed door" option. Warhammer Online/Return of Reckoning has this. You can already see what outfit someone is wearing when they walk around in STO. If you're THAT curious, all you have to do is open a line of communication with the player that caught your attention.
Yes - because in 53 years of Star Trek various ships COULDN'T get a readout of other ships weapons status, weapons types, etc. So it wouldn't be Star Trek...oh, wait...
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Really, you didn't even address the argument. You want to know someone's BUILD. That is a lot of information to wade through on many different pages of a person's character that would have to be reorganized and redacted in places to make this infodump even work, and you know the only time someone gets curious about it is during an STF. You want a little clicky button somewhere to simply and quickly magically inspect someone and get all that info at once. Well when are you going to digest that information?
If you felt like showing the other person some respect you could ask them and meet up and discuss it. With this magic button, inspectors are likely going to sit there in an STF pouring over stuff while things go on around them, and it WILL result in preemptive harassment by people who are dumbasses. It happens in every game with such a feature.
I know for a fact I'll be harassed for not having fleet anything. At least without inspect its not obvious that I didn't first get the gear from some fleet then leave the fleet. I'm not going to say it will happen endlessly, every day, but it will happen and I don't deserve that for your silly desire to know everything about someone else's build without bothering to ask them.
Yes obviously I don't like the idea which is why I've been suggesting opt in/out for the system, which no one has even tried to argue against, absurdly. What is your issue with that? I mean really, if someone is opting out, what do you think you're going to see of value in their build? Probably nothing so it saves you the time of looking through it and realizing there is nothing of interest there. What is bad about that?
It will lead to harassment of people undeserving of it, not least of which is myself. The privacy argument isn't just about privacy itself its about respect for the other player as a person, not just another button to interact with. Why do you think we say 'ask them' as if talking to another person about builds in an MMO is some novel concept? You should never trust anyone who wants to look through your things unbidden, because they have a marked lack of respect for you, whether its an individual or a government.
The sad thing is refusing to even argue the point shows a lack of respect for another player as a person. You guys apparently don't even comprehend the idea that people don't want someone snooping around their character sheet without even knowing it is happening, and actively mock it rather than try to understand it. And that really proves to me why inspect should not be a thing.
People harass other people now from time to time whether one may feel its deserved or not. If someone is harassing another person that says more about them than anything else. You're never going to completely eliminate the harassment problem no matter what you do. This is why folks are given the ability to place folks on ignore and if it gets to be serious enough you can report them. Any sensible person is going to realize not everyone is at the same gear level or has the same resources as more veteran players. However I fail to see what's so unreasonable about expecting a basic minimum amount of effort and gear from people. If a queue needs 50k dps to complete and all mk xiii very rare minimum for you to survive it, and you can't meet those goals, you are not ready for the queue and your presence is a drain on the team until you up your game. That doesn't mean the player is bad, it simply means that particular content is not targeted towards them since they're not ready for it yet.
Secondly you do not need fleet gear to succeed in game. Fleet gear is a nice set of stuff to invest in but absolutely not required. Anyone telling you otherwise is straight up lying to you. Finally someone knowing my build is not showing me disrespect nor is someone analyzing parse data and my buff bars showing me disrespect. If you go into a TFO you are giving away most of your build data anyways by virtue of the buff bars and the in-game combat log if someone has it running. All the 3rd party parsers do is read what's already there and break it down faster than you can by hand. I would buy the privacy argument if you're not already giving away all of that data to start with. it's not an invasion of privacy if you're willingly giving the data away, which is what you do by entering a TFO. Again this isn't real life personal information we're talking about, but stats in a video game. Furthermore if you are not pulling your weight it can and does effect the team, and no one person is so important in game that they should be allowed a free ride at the expense of the other 4 people. Most people will not care what kind of gear you have as long as you can pull the basic minimum to get through the run. It's been that way even in games like WoW for years.
If you're playing by yourself then I would agree. However when you join a TFO your team has the right to know you can carry your weight since your performance good or bad will effect the team.
Sorry, but this is completely false. Seeing what gear and build they have is a very small part of the equation. Player experience and skill are of far greater importance than gear and you cannot glean that from looking at gear.
So you're telling me, that if I am forming a group to do a TFO run or if I'm forming a raid group (WoW) I have no right know what they have and that they can carry their own weight, and should just take whoever applies first? Sorry but no it doesn't work like that. If I am going into a Korfez or HSE run as just a hypothetical, I'm not going to invite the guy who has only been playing a week and only pulling 20k and has only mk xi very rare gear, because he's going to get trounced and the run will fail. Quite simply put he's not ready yet. In time he will be, but that time isn't now.
I am not saying gear is the end all be all decision maker as to whether someone can carry their own weight or not. However you can often at times tell alot about a person's experience level by the kinds of builds they're putting together. Are they throwing on a smattering of cannons, turrets, beams, torps, and mines, or are they sticking to one type of weapons such as cannons, or beams with maybe a set piece torp mixed in? Are they running antiproton but using all polaron gear? Are they running a phaser beam array setup and packing full phaser gear or other gear that backs up their weapons? Even if they're running only mk xii gear from the story missions, is it at least a cohesive build? No it's not a perfect indication but you can get a fair idea of the experience level from that as well as how much effort they've put into the build to get something cohesive.
It's 100% unfair to the other 4 guys in the run to expect them to carry a 5th person who is not ready for the run, even if those 4 guys are capable of doing so. No it won't completely eliminate that stuff, but the inspect feature gives people a tool that can be used to eliminate situations like this. It also gives a tool that can be used to help out fleetmates and people to improve the game as a whole. Not to mention as another has pointed out, even in Trek itself, they could scan various other ships and tell what they're running. One could almost say it's untrek-like for us not to have it but that's another can of worms entirely.
Aside from the harassment argument, which already has in game solutions to it, folks have not demonstrated the harm in someone knowing their build.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Also, when you become experienced enough you can identify icons on the BUFF bars as well as weapon visuals and sounds. Depending on what a person has, you dont even need a parser or inspector as it were to essentially breakdown someone's build.
You wont know all there traits and skill tree, but you can design a decent picture of what they may have under the hood in your head.
Me personally, if someone wants to inspect my build I am fully OK with that. If someone wants to harass me because i might only do 50k to 75k DPS, I will just ignore them or report them.
Sorry, but this is completely false. Seeing what gear and build they have is a very small part of the equation. Player experience and skill are of far greater importance than gear and you cannot glean that from looking at gear.
You aren't wrong, but neither is he. If you see a ship with lower end gear, it doesn't necessarily mean the player is inexperienced. As you pointed out in another post, it could be an experienced player on an Alt. However, if you look at their build and they have a beam/cannon hybrid with no cool down reduction, 5 alloy consoles and bridge officer powers that don't boost anything they're actually using.. you get your answer very quickly. It doesn't take long to tell the difference between a sensible lower end build and someone that's just mindlessly throwing anything on their ship.
By no means do I think that gives anyone a reason to harass that player, but that would be someone I would offer help to if they wanted it.
Right to know? That's pretty heavy verbiage. Right to live? Yes. Right to freedom? Yes. Right to see what kind of gear you're carrying in a video game? No. One might like to know, but one does not have a right to know.
Agreed, either way.. lets stop the hyperbole.. no one's 'rights' are in danger either way.
People harass other people now from time to time whether one may feel its deserved or not. If someone is harassing another person that says more about them than anything else. You're never going to completely eliminate the harassment problem no matter what you do.
Very true, harassment currently exists even without an 'inspect' feature, and those determined to harass will use any method available to them to do so. The solution is not to hamper game development or withhold useful features out of fear of how these people will use such a feature. The solution is to report and ignore those players.
The main upside I see to an inspect feature is that it would make it much easier to share builds in game for those that wanted to share ideas. That seems like a good thing to me, and while I realize some might use it to try and troll, those people are going to troll either way.
Really, you didn't even address the argument. You want to know someone's BUILD. That is a lot of information to wade through on many different pages of a person's character that would have to be reorganized and redacted in places to make this infodump even work, and you know the only time someone gets curious about it is during an STF. You want a little clicky button somewhere to simply and quickly magically inspect someone and get all that info at once. Well when are you going to digest that information?
If you felt like showing the other person some respect you could ask them and meet up and discuss it. With this magic button, inspectors are likely going to sit there in an STF pouring over stuff while things go on around them, and it WILL result in preemptive harassment by people who are dumbasses. It happens in every game with such a feature.
I know for a fact I'll be harassed for not having fleet anything. At least without inspect its not obvious that I didn't first get the gear from some fleet then leave the fleet. I'm not going to say it will happen endlessly, every day, but it will happen and I don't deserve that for your silly desire to know everything about someone else's build without bothering to ask them.
Yes obviously I don't like the idea which is why I've been suggesting opt in/out for the system, which no one has even tried to argue against, absurdly. What is your issue with that? I mean really, if someone is opting out, what do you think you're going to see of value in their build? Probably nothing so it saves you the time of looking through it and realizing there is nothing of interest there. What is bad about that?
It will lead to harassment of people undeserving of it, not least of which is myself. The privacy argument isn't just about privacy itself its about respect for the other player as a person, not just another button to interact with. Why do you think we say 'ask them' as if talking to another person about builds in an MMO is some novel concept? You should never trust anyone who wants to look through your things unbidden, because they have a marked lack of respect for you, whether its an individual or a government.
The sad thing is refusing to even argue the point shows a lack of respect for another player as a person. You guys apparently don't even comprehend the idea that people don't want someone snooping around their character sheet without even knowing it is happening, and actively mock it rather than try to understand it. And that really proves to me why inspect should not be a thing.
People harass other people now from time to time whether one may feel its deserved or not. If someone is harassing another person that says more about them than anything else. You're never going to completely eliminate the harassment problem no matter what you do. This is why folks are given the ability to place folks on ignore and if it gets to be serious enough you can report them. Any sensible person is going to realize not everyone is at the same gear level or has the same resources as more veteran players. However I fail to see what's so unreasonable about expecting a basic minimum amount of effort and gear from people. If a queue needs 50k dps to complete and all mk xiii very rare minimum for you to survive it, and you can't meet those goals, you are not ready for the queue and your presence is a drain on the team until you up your game. That doesn't mean the player is bad, it simply means that particular content is not targeted towards them since they're not ready for it yet.
Secondly you do not need fleet gear to succeed in game. Fleet gear is a nice set of stuff to invest in but absolutely not required. Anyone telling you otherwise is straight up lying to you. Finally someone knowing my build is not showing me disrespect nor is someone analyzing parse data and my buff bars showing me disrespect. If you go into a TFO you are giving away most of your build data anyways by virtue of the buff bars and the in-game combat log if someone has it running. All the 3rd party parsers do is read what's already there and break it down faster than you can by hand. I would buy the privacy argument if you're not already giving away all of that data to start with. it's not an invasion of privacy if you're willingly giving the data away, which is what you do by entering a TFO. Again this isn't real life personal information we're talking about, but stats in a video game. Furthermore if you are not pulling your weight it can and does effect the team, and no one person is so important in game that they should be allowed a free ride at the expense of the other 4 people. Most people will not care what kind of gear you have as long as you can pull the basic minimum to get through the run. It's been that way even in games like WoW for years.
There is no need to invent a tool that will allow harassment either. Why is it no one has any argument against a checkbox to opt out/in? I've made it fairly obvious, I think, that I'm not unsympathetic to the desire to have an easy way to inspect someone's build, but you shouldn't be able to intrude on anyone and everyone if they want to opt out. What is wrong with that? Seriously, this is the obvious solution that makes everyone happy. Why do you care about knowing my build if I want to opt out to the point that you think I should have no choice in the matter?
And what does this inspect feature offer you if someone isn't up to par? Yeah some queues may require certain DPS to complete. Which ones I'm not sure. ISA certainly doesn't require DPS, it requires DPS or nanite sphere control. One improved gravity well and someone keeping it up on the gate is enough to give the other 4 infinite time for however good or bad their DPS may be.
But even still, so what if someone isn't up to par? Inspect doesn't fix that, nor does it necessarily tell you who the weak link is. It also doesn't tell you much unless they are in QL 2 gear or something obvious. You can run around in mk 15 gear with a super expensive build and do terrible DPS afterall. They just don't know how to use it all well. Your parser already tells you who is the weak link and you don't need inspect to tell you that. If you're not using a parser then you honestly don't know that the person with low gear is doing badly.
I'm also aware that fleet gear is totally unnecessary, and I'm sure everyone else in this thread knows that as well. That isn't the issue. The issue is there are other people don't comprehend that and are the type to harass about it, just like they would harass about having mk 12 gear in advanced. No there's nothing wrong with that either, obviously, but the harasser type is the kind of elitist that expects everyone to have mk 15 and fleet gear and if you don't you suck.
And again, inspect doesn't help you with someone who isn't pulling their weight nor does it even help you find out that detail. Your parser is the only thing that tells you that, and even then it doesn't tell you how their other actions may have been beneficial. Maybe they were spamming extend shields and other heals that kept your big DPSers able to focus on DPS and had tons of control expertise for their grav wells to amazingly gather the entire map for the ever exciting chain warp core breach game, but not enough part gens to do any useful damage.
I mean just consider two situations. Take the high control grav well and put it on the gateway in ISA. Now what about putting it on the nanite controllers? Same DPS in both situation, but one is far worse for the team. Now imagine your gateway grav well person has poor gear, other than getting enough controlx for that to work, and imagine your nanite controller grav well person has great gear. Who is the real liability? The parser doesn't necessarily tell you the problem. Inspect definitely does not.
Ultimately the only thing inspect lets you do is go after someone for their gear if you think it isn't up to par in this situation. That is the sort of thing that should be avoided, no matter how helpful you're trying to be because no one reacts well to unsolicited advice. Other people have argued an interest in high performing builds, which is fine, as is the interest in helping poor performers who ask for help, but if they don't want help or don't want to share, then why should they be forced to do so and reveal every little detail that the parser can't uncover?
So you're telling me, that if I am forming a group to do a TFO run or if I'm forming a raid group (WoW) I have no right know what they have and that they can carry their own weight, and should just take whoever applies first? Sorry but no it doesn't work like that.
This isn't WoW. It's STO and STO does not have anything even remotely similar to raid tiers in WoW. You're making a lot of assumptions based on looking at gear and ignorantly equating that to skill to determine the ability of a player. Gear <> skill.
You can inspect another toon and see they have what you consider a "perfect build", but they could have just copied that from one of the many posted on various sites and they don't know diddly about how to use their ship or skills. Or they could have what looks to be a "bad build" yet be a veteran player and do just fine.
If you are truly that concerned about who has what and want to make sure you've got the "right people" with the "right build" (as if there are even such things), then start a fleet, recruit like-minded people and play together. That's one of the many reasons why these social tools are in place.
Lastly, you've never addressed what you plan to do if you can inspect another player and find them "not up to your standards". Kick them from your team?
It appears based off this last line in your statement here the answer to my previous question you quoted is yes, I should have to take just whoever. Again sorry doesn't work like that.
I'm well aware this isn't WoW and STO doesn't have full on raid tiers like WoW, however it does have tiered difficulty and certain missions require certain amounts of minimum effort in order to clear them. Also once again, I never said their gear was a perfect indicator of their ability. What I did say was that it can give a rough idea of their experience level, rough as in not perfect but general ballpark. If someone is using a smattering of cannons, beams, turrets, torps, and mines, and their powers aren't boosting anything there hardly, then its a safe assumption they threw just anything on the ship. If they're running antiproton but have all polaron gear, then again, it's a safe bet they don't realize what they're doing. If they have a lower end build that's all mk xi and xii gear from missions but is otherwise a basic cohesive build, then it's a safe assumption they have a basic idea of what they're doing and have put in a little time and effort. No gear alone isn't an indication of skill, but if they've put in the time and effort to at least get a basic cohesive build, then that tells me they can probably do the basic minimum at least. Otherwise if they're making alot of rookie mistakes that veteran players wouldn't do, then it's a safe bet they're not that experienced. I really don't see why some people seem so opposed to folks having to put forth a basic minimum amount of effort that at least requires people to be conscious at their keyboard.
In regards to builds, there is no winner take all "best" build in the game. However if the goal is to clear content in a reasonable time frame and be able to contribute to a team if/when you are teamed, there are some builds out there which are objectively bad and subpar for both of those tasks. In addition to this there are certain gear levels and damage levels someone needs to get to for certain missions in this game or they're going to get trounced. In the case of Korfez or HSE, if you don't have a decent gear level and you can't put out the damage, you're going to fail. There is no if, and, or but about it, if the team can't meet basic minimums, you will fail. The same is true with alot of other elites in game, if you can't meet basic minimums for certain queues, you will fail. That's not me hyping it up, but the actual design of the queues. If a veteran player is working on an alt, then they will 95% for certain have a basic cohesive build on the ship, even if it's just a bunch of mk xii greens they picked up from the exchange.
For your information I already have a fleet of my own, in fact I am the alpha fleet of my armada and the only thing at the moment we don't have completely maxed out is the colony. As for your other point on this, I don't mind dealing with people who don't have the resources I do, or haven't been around as long as I have and on down the line. I also don't mind dealing with people who deal less damage than I do as those folks are always going to be around. What I do expect however is if a queue requires a minimum of 50k dps and mk xii very rare gear to succeed, that people are able to meet those goals. If they can't, then they don't need to be in that run just yet because it negatively impacts the rest of the team, and the other 4 people are the one's paying for it. Yes I know I can always queue with a fleet, but that's not what the discussion was about. The discussion was about an inspect feature and why we want it, and a sort of sub discussion of how it could effect random runs. Even then the "go with your fleet" only works if your fleet is online. If you want to just log in and do something yourself it's either hit the randoms or do nothing at all. Now getting back on topic.
Every feature can be abused in some form or fashion. The combat meters can be abused now, but the benefits out-weight the downsides. They allow folks to see how hard, or not hard, they're hitting and it tells them if they're on the right track or need improvement. Yes there are some folks who try to DPS shame, but there will always be folks out there like that who try to shame whether someone needs to step up their game or not. That's still not a valid enough reason to deny the rest of the playerbase the use of such a critical tool. Likewise with the inspect feature, this allows people to make informed decisions of who they're going to bring if they're forming a private run, or when helping people out, or seeking help. If a fleetmate asks for help, all I have to do is inspect them and I can tell them exactly what to do instead of them having to link it all or fill out some skill planner build page, especially since the skill planner needs some massive updates now.
The inspect feature has been part of games like WoW, SWTOR, and other MMOs for as long as they've been around, and I don't see the widespread harassment you hint at. Yes you have a few tools that try harass people, but those people are few and far between like the DPS shamers these days. If the concern is harassment, that's already easily addressed by putting them on ignore and reporting them for harassing you if necessary.
To answer your question, if I am hosting a private run and I inspect someone and see they don't meet what I consider to be the standard for my private run then yes I will boot them from team and they will not be coming. The key difference there is a private run vs a public. If it's a private run I control who I bring and who I don't. If it's a public run then folks are free to queue for whatever, however they should at least be made to meet the basic minimum standards required by the queue and game mechanics themselves. If they can't, then they're not ready for that queue yet.
Very true, harassment currently exists even without an 'inspect' feature, and those determined to harass will use any method available to them to do so. The solution is not to hamper game development or withhold useful features out of fear of how these people will use such a feature. The solution is to report and ignore those players
It also is not an excuse to develop even more features that will be used to grief others. Also, report them for what? They looked at your build and determined you weren't to their liking and they kicked you.
The only type of queue folks can be kicked from at the moment is a private queue group. They can't be kicked from a public group. There is a major difference between the two. Private queue groups have the right to set whatever standards they want for their groups. There is currently no kick feature for public groups so that's not a valid argument. Secondly if all someone is doing is kicking you from a private group that's not harassment. If they're constantly whispering you, trashing you in zone, or bypassing an ignore to keep spamming you with whispers, invites, etc, THAT is harassment. If that's going on then you report them as there are already systems in place to deal with this sort of thing. Otherwise it's not a valid reason as to why such a valuable feature should be denied to everyone in game because of a few tools. That's like saying the combat meter in game should be removed because of the few bad apples.
There is no need to invent a tool that will allow harassment either. Why is it no one has any argument against a checkbox to opt out/in? I've made it fairly obvious, I think, that I'm not unsympathetic to the desire to have an easy way to inspect someone's build, but you shouldn't be able to intrude on anyone and everyone if they want to opt out. What is wrong with that? Seriously, this is the obvious solution that makes everyone happy. Why do you care about knowing my build if I want to opt out to the point that you think I should have no choice in the matter?
Once again there are already systems in place to deal with this sort of thing. If harassment is going on then report it and ignore them. Otherwise this isn't a valid enough reason on its own to deny such a valuable tool to the entire playerbase. It's the same principle as the combat log that's used by the DPS parsers. The combat log itself is a game function. Yes some folks like to DPS shame but those folks are few and far between, and typically get shut down pretty fast. Once again there is no intrusion as you voluntarily give up that data every time you enter a TFO via your buff bars, and the combat log itself. If you're that private of a person then again I will ask, why are you playing MMOs to start with, especially when you know you're giving away that much of your "privacy" in that case? You know up front the team can see your buff bars, and everyone has access to a combat log if they so choose. What's wrong is when someone expects that they should be allowed to impact another person's gameplay without that other person having the ability to know who or what they're dealing with. You've still yet to explain other than potential harassment, which can happen with or without inspect, as to how a potential inspect would effect you. What harm is it bringing to you? If I am forming a group or such, why should I not be allowed to know what those people are bringing to the table before hand? Why should I not be allowed to inspect their gear and make sure they're up to snuff?
And what does this inspect feature offer you if someone isn't up to par? Yeah some queues may require certain DPS to complete. Which ones I'm not sure. ISA certainly doesn't require DPS, it requires DPS or nanite sphere control. One improved gravity well and someone keeping it up on the gate is enough to give the other 4 infinite time for however good or bad their DPS may be.
But even still, so what if someone isn't up to par? Inspect doesn't fix that, nor does it necessarily tell you who the weak link is. It also doesn't tell you much unless they are in QL 2 gear or something obvious. You can run around in mk 15 gear with a super expensive build and do terrible DPS afterall. They just don't know how to use it all well. Your parser already tells you who is the weak link and you don't need inspect to tell you that. If you're not using a parser then you honestly don't know that the person with low gear is doing badly.
If I'm forming a private group and someone isn't up to par, it gives me enough data to know I'm not taking that person along. Korfez and HSE are 2 examples of queues that require basic minimums. Herald sphere is another one when trying to stop ships from entering the portals, and keep the starting science ships alive. Even in ISA you still need a basic minimum DPS to kill the transformers, spheres and others, it just happens to be very very low in that run, but it does exist.
No inspect on its own doesn't fix things if someone isn't up to par, but assuming someone wants to improve and do better, it lets you see where they are so you can help them improve. If a guy says to me he's having trouble staying alive and wants to know of some gear and traits he could use to stay alive, I can inspect him and say "I see you don't have anything to give you extra damage resistances, try picking up the Trellium D Plating since it buffs damage resist and shield capacity, and try picking up Redirected Armor Plating." Thus the inspect feature has allowed for them to improve and assistance to be rendered in a timely manor. If after the run the guy messages me and says "I noticed you're using a turret on your disruptor build even though you're all beams, can I ask why you're using that turret." I can then tell them "I'm using the bio-molecular turret along with the tac console for the 2 piece bonus it provides," and then explain why.
If someone is doing badly with low gear that's not magically going to change just because I'm not using the parser. If they're doing badly while I'm using the parser they're probably doing bad without me using the parser assuming nothing has changed. I already explained above how one's choice of build can reveal alot about their experience level. No it's not a perfect indicator but it tells you more than you think. If I see someone exploding 10+ times in a run and it's only on normal, then I know that person is having issues of some kind. If I inspect them and see they're using a smattering of different weapons where nothing is the same, and their gear/boffs/traits aren't boosting anything they're using, and they have no damage resist to speak of, I can offer them assistance based on that. Either they will accept and improve, or they will tell me off and continue to have issues. Either way it's on them.
I'm also aware that fleet gear is totally unnecessary, and I'm sure everyone else in this thread knows that as well. That isn't the issue. The issue is there are other people don't comprehend that and are the type to harass about it, just like they would harass about having mk 12 gear in advanced. No there's nothing wrong with that either, obviously, but the harasser type is the kind of elitist that expects everyone to have mk 15 and fleet gear and if you don't you suck.
And again, inspect doesn't help you with someone who isn't pulling their weight nor does it even help you find out that detail. Your parser is the only thing that tells you that, and even then it doesn't tell you how their other actions may have been beneficial. Maybe they were spamming extend shields and other heals that kept your big DPSers able to focus on DPS and had tons of control expertise for their grav wells to amazingly gather the entire map for the ever exciting chain warp core breach game, but not enough part gens to do any useful damage.
I mean just consider two situations. Take the high control grav well and put it on the gateway in ISA. Now what about putting it on the nanite controllers? Same DPS in both situation, but one is far worse for the team. Now imagine your gateway grav well person has poor gear, other than getting enough controlx for that to work, and imagine your nanite controller grav well person has great gear. Who is the real liability? The parser doesn't necessarily tell you the problem. Inspect definitely does not.
Ultimately the only thing inspect lets you do is go after someone for their gear if you think it isn't up to par in this situation. That is the sort of thing that should be avoided, no matter how helpful you're trying to be because no one reacts well to unsolicited advice. Other people have argued an interest in high performing builds, which is fine, as is the interest in helping poor performers who ask for help, but if they don't want help or don't want to share, then why should they be forced to do so and reveal every little detail that the parser can't uncover?
Once again harassers are going to be the way they are no matter what. There's always going to be someone who thinks they're better than what they are or tries to harass other people. That's what the ignore and report buttons are for. Mk xii is more than enough for advanced content. Once you get into elite, then yeah you're going to want more than that, but otherwise there are more than enough missions for folks to get at least mk xii very rare in every slot. Otherwise ignore those people.
Once again no inspect on its own doesn't fix the issue, but it can give you a starting point to do it and helps eliminate gear as the cause. At the same time to cite issues of people putting a grav well in the wrong spot as to why inspect shouldn't be a thing is like trying to say I as an adult shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because a baby can't chew it. They have nothing to do with each other. If someone doesn't have a basic cohesive build and can't pull the basic minimum required by the queue, and you also have someone flinging grav wells everywhere without thought to the consequences, then both of them are liabilities.
And no inspect isn't a tool designed purely for griefing. I've already explained how it can be beneficial as have others. If you choose to ignore those points an not listen, that's on you. I could also ask, why should 4 other people be forced to carry someone who has queued for something they're not ready for yet? How is that fair to them? That however is a different can of worms. You already give away all of the data needed to decipher your build whenever you go into a TFO to start with via buff bars and also the combat log. So if you're really that concerned about privacy, then again I will ask, why are you playing MMOs to start with that literally require you to interact with other people in order to play certain content?
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Very true, harassment currently exists even without an 'inspect' feature, and those determined to harass will use any method available to them to do so. The solution is not to hamper game development or withhold useful features out of fear of how these people will use such a feature. The solution is to report and ignore those players
It also is not an excuse to develop even more features that will be used to grief others. Also, report them for what? They looked at your build and determined you weren't to their liking and they kicked you.
Fear is not an excuse to prevent the development of tools that could enhance the overall game experience. It's debatable rather or not this feature falls into that category, but if the developers believe that this feature would be useful, then the fact that some people might misuse it is not a valid reason to halt it's development.
The report comment was for players that harass others because of their gear. Send them unwanted tells, etc.. just use block/report and be done with it. The game currently has no 'kick' feature.
Overall, the argument is moot.. if Cryptic felt this option was a good idea, they would have added it by now. It's been 10 years without an inspect feature, I see no reason to believe it will ever happen. It's more a discussion on 'what if,' and probably won't go any further then that. My suspicion is that Cryptic agrees with you and thinks it has more negative then positive. I personally disagree, but obviously they don't care what I think.
Very true, harassment currently exists even without an 'inspect' feature, and those determined to harass will use any method available to them to do so. The solution is not to hamper game development or withhold useful features out of fear of how these people will use such a feature. The solution is to report and ignore those players
It also is not an excuse to develop even more features that will be used to grief others. Also, report them for what? They looked at your build and determined you weren't to their liking and they kicked you.
Fear is not an excuse to prevent the development of tools that could enhance the overall game experience. It's debatable rather or not this feature falls into that category, but if the developers believe that this feature would be useful, then the fact that some people might misuse it is not a valid reason to halt it's development.
The report comment was for players that harass others because of their gear. Send them unwanted tells, etc.. just use block/report and be done with it. The game currently has no 'kick' feature.
Overall, the argument is moot.. if Cryptic felt this option was a good idea, they would have added it by now. It's been 10 years without an inspect feature, I see no reason to believe it will ever happen. It's more a discussion on 'what if,' and probably won't go any further then that. My suspicion is that Cryptic agrees with you and thinks it has more negative then positive. I personally disagree, but obviously they don't care what I think.
I think also it might be development time. Exactly what would be the requirement and cost for developing a feature like this and supporting it. Exactly what "funds" would it bring into the game if any. While some features are nice, if they are very costly to create/implement and you are not going to get anything back, welll....
With that, I also mean that while they may not get revenue from it, could they use the system they create for inspect to massively improve the game in other areas or overall. Could they use parts of the system to retrofit the visuals system, or maybe even the visuals of gear etc. Could you use the inspect system to copy a starship look? So its patterns etc.
That way, if someone said "Hey cool, i like the look of your starship" they could use the inspect system to maybe "copy" the look to theirs if they are the same class.
Again I do not understand why anyone is arguing against building in the OPTION. I don't care about why you want to see my gear and you don't care that I don't want you to. But who should have ultimate control over that choice is unquestionably me because its my gear, my weird or completely normal build idea overall. Yet you don't think I or anyone else should even have a choice in the matter. That's absurd.
And why is it my job to report harassers when it could be prevented entirely with a toggle switch? Why should I have to put in that extra effort to fill out a complaint every time I get harassed thanks to this feature? That is MY time I could be spending on playing the game instead used to report some jerk simply because there is no toggle to turn off my info.
The development of this inspect feature would unquestionably take a lot of time. There is too much to a character build, between BOFFs, DOFFS, actual gear, traits, skill points, spec points, endeavors and so forth, none of which is displayed on the same page, for developing this tool to not be a serious undertaking. They did stop the Gateway afterall which showed less info. The addition of a checkbox/toggle/whatever is only a few lines of code though, so why not do it?
I hate going in circles here, but you lot are being absurdly uncompromising and haven't provided one reason why someone should not have the choice.
Again I do not understand why anyone is arguing against building in the OPTION.
A toggle is a good compromise, but I have seen it used in the past in a negative way, in other games (players excluded/kicked out if they refuse to toggle 'on').
Personally I've never seen the attraction of inspecting another persons equipment/build, I'd rather spend my time creating something that is unique to me. Especially when you get the passing fads where everyone clones the same build/equipment (Aux2bat ect).
It appears based off this last line in your statement here the answer to my previous question you quoted is yes, I should have to take just whoever. Again sorry doesn't work like that.
No, that isn't what I said. At all. Feel free to do whatever you want if you are forming a team. Quite frankly, I just find it very, very ignorant to judge someone based on a cursory glance at their gear. It literally tells you nothing about them or how well they can play the game.
I consider akin to looking at someone's resume. It doesn't tell you everything about them as you can't know that until you see them in action, but it does give you an idea of their experience level. You can absolutely get a ballpark estimate of someone's experience level by looking at their build. Again no, it's not perfect, nor have I ever claimed it to be. However it does let you see if they at least have the "on paper" experience and ability to do the job.
If I inspect a person and they're using a smattering of each kind of weapon, such as a beam array, a dual bank, a single cannon, a dual cannon, a torp, a mine, a turret, and an omni, their gear, traits, and powers aren't really boosting anything on their build, and all of those weapons are mixed energy types, then it's a safe bet the person doesn't know what they're doing. That's simply not something veteran players are going to do, because the build is all over the place and brings nothing to the table.
If I inspect a person and they're using all weapons of the same energy type, all the gear is mk xi or mk xii from missions, the powers, traits, and gear are boosting the build, but otherwise it's all just a lower rarity and grade, then I can safely assume that this is either a veteran player on an alt, or a moderately experienced player that's put together their first major build. This person should have at least a basic idea of what they're doing.
If I inspect a person and they're running all the same energy type, everything is mk xv epic, and the only thing that isn't golded out are the toilets on the ship itself, all of their traits, gear, and powers are boosting the build, and they're packing several lockbox/lobi/promo consoles and/or traits in the mix, then it's a safe bet this is someone who is a more experienced veteran player. Established veteran players usually have access to various ships and items that newer players simply don't just yet. Veteran players have also had more time to gather resources and upgrade their gear that newer players simply haven't had yet. If someone has taken the proper time to kit out a ship to that extent, and from all appearances had done the proper research for to get their build to that point on paper at least, then this is someone who should again know what they're doing.
None of those scenarios are perfect examples nor will I ever claim them to be. With that said however there are certain things and signs you can pick up for that veteran players simply don't do. No matter how you slice it a veteran player simply isn't going to make the kinds of mistakes that a day 2 rookie is going to make. A veteran player is going to know it's a bad idea to stack 5 armor consoles on a ship due to diminishing returns where as a rookie player probably won't. A veteran player is going to know it's best to stick with one energy type in 95% of all cases, and also to stick to one type of weapon. An example of this being using dual banks up front and then omni weapons in the back. Or in the case of cannons, all cannons up front and turrets in the back. Heck I've seen builds that use nothing but turrets pull over 100k and shred things. Point being there are simply certain things a veteran player will do that a rookie player won't. Many of these things can be spotted purely by looking at a person's on paper build.
As one final example on this. There is a fleetmate of mine who has begged me for at least 2-3 years to take them into a Battle of Korfez run with the rest of the fleet. Each time they've asked, I've asked them how their ship is looking, what they're running, and so on. Each time they'll tell me what they have, and so far it's been a smattering of different weapons, boff powers that don't boost anything they're using, none of the powers are heals, and subpar un-upgraded gear. By un-upgraded gear I mean things like mk ix ultra rares that will get outclassed by basic mk xii very rares. Just by the on paper stats alone they do not have the means to pull their own weight in the run, nor would they survive getting hit even once by some of the ships in there. So far up to this point they have refused to learn and understand why I won't take them on a Korfez run. By linking the same old tired items again and again I can tell they've not learned and are refusing to do so. When they eventually show me a basic cohesive build of at least mk xv very rare, then I will take them into the run. Until then I won't. That's just one example of how I can tell if they've learned or not.
Fear is not an excuse to prevent the development of tools that could enhance the overall game experience. It's debatable rather or not this feature falls into that category, but if the developers believe that this feature would be useful, then the fact that some people might misuse it is not a valid reason to halt it's development.
The report comment was for players that harass others because of their gear. Send them unwanted tells, etc.. just use block/report and be done with it. The game currently has no 'kick' feature.
Overall, the argument is moot.. if Cryptic felt this option was a good idea, they would have added it by now. It's been 10 years without an inspect feature, I see no reason to believe it will ever happen. It's more a discussion on 'what if,' and probably won't go any further then that. My suspicion is that Cryptic agrees with you and thinks it has more negative then positive. I personally disagree, but obviously they don't care what I think.
Fear has nothing to do with it. More like common sense. Mostly, I just don't see the need for it personally. There are all kinds of tools available to share this information. Fleets, chat channels, friends lists, Discord, web tools .... all are used for this. The "convenience" of being able to click on someone to inspect them isn't worth the time to develop IMO since there are already plenty of methods to get this information.
And as far as the "maybe they won't tell me or tell me to get lost" - too bad. That is their choice and it should be respected.
Simply because you don't see the need for it does NOT make it "common sense" for there not to be an inspect feature, nor do you have exclusive claim as to what "common sense" is. One can certainly use fleet channels and such to display a build, but to do so requires linking a ton of items and remembering what those are, which in a moderate sized fleet can get lost in the chat quickly. Plus it also spams the fleet chat. Discord and the web tools you've mentioned are also 3rd party and can still take a ton of time to plug everything into them, thus making it take longer than it needs to in order to get someone the help they've requested/need. An inspect feature is simply a flip of a switch and you can see what you need.
Now I will agree with you on one thing, if someone asks another person about their build currently and that other person says they don't want to talk about it, then that should be respected. That much I agree with because you're sending the person an unwanted tell. However that's not the same as simply flipping a switch.
Also tell me, what's the difference between someone seeing your build via Discord's video sharing tool and an inspect feature in game? Why is one okay but not the other even though they do the same thing?
Folks have already explained why it would be a valuable tool. If you choose not to use it to look at builds then more power to you. Otherwise a small handful saying they don't like it is not a valid enough reason to deny it to the rest of the playerbase. In terms of time to develop, things like the Winter Wonderland and similar don't exactly make alot of cash but they're still valuable. For that matter the Combat log can be lumped in there as well. It doesn't make them cash but it's still a necessary tool.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Oh boy. This is degenerating and fast.
The OP suggested a feature they'd like to see in game; it's nothing revolutionary nor is it something imperative to have.
There are prons and cons to it, and that's that.
Chill out everyone. No one here is speaking for the entire playerbase - and thank god for that - so sit back and relax.
Everyone is expressing their own opinion and you're all free to disagree with each other, but damn. We're not talking about some fundamental truth or some inalienable right.
RNJesus.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
But hey, you all want to judge and exclude others for what gear they are carrying, more power to you.
Now who's putting words in peoples mouth?
At least I based my opinion on what you actually typed.. you're just pulling this out of your backside.
Typical of you, and it's on me for thinking you would be capable of any type of civil conversation. Someone attacks your words, you attack them personally.. not a surprise considering the source.
Why don't you go ahead and get the last word in now and we'll be done with it.
In a community where Disco ball use is equated to real life physical assault, it should be a no-brainer there will be many who will abuse any inspect feature to grief others that don't meet their "standards". If that's not common sense to you, I don't know what to tell you.
It's funny you bring up the disco ball scandal, since that had absolutely nothing to do with any kind of sense. Common, uncommon or otherwise.
I do feel the deja vu in some of the arguments here, but I wouldn't have expected the "no" side to bring it up first.
I do not agree with this ideal being a feature. I see several with the DPS league under there post wanting it. I see several reference to other games and a need for it to be here. I see a moderator arguing for it at the ideal people want to not be inspected.
If this is a needed feature for the game well we have managed what 9 years with out it so far. So i don't see the game falling apart over not having the ability to place a random person under a microscope.
As to privacy and the ideal of it not being a thing in game and you give away your information any way. Well if you want to pick thru the information and deconstruct or reverse engineer a build more power to you no one is saying that information should be less.
But it should also be respected for those not wanting the inspection and rather talk to a person in regards to build item or otherwise.
all this regarding i have a reason to know cause i am in a tfo with x random person to see who is not pulling there part. In a word NO! you have no reason or right. If anything you by clicking the join have decided to take what ever you may get. Not that the other person has decided to get some probe of them self from some random player.
If you "MUST KNOW" what is in your tfo private or fleet for a team for it.
I do not care in regards to how it is worded there is no right to know, and a person if only in a mental state that even causes anxiety over being berated shamed or attacked over this feature is more than enough let there be a opt out as well as opt in.
As to my own feelings on it. If i want to try for as high a dps or meta build i can get. Or if i want to load up the defiant in all common gear and grab my set of holo DS9 bridge officers dress in the admiralty uniform from the ds9 set and have theme night blue quality Bajoran ground weapons. Then that is my option to do so with out question or scanned by some random passer by that wont engage me in a chat.
The same as i turn down random friend requests that have never talked to me. I opt to provide information to those i talk with. The ideal that in a mmo i want to chat and know something of the person that wants to use me as a slide under a microscope before hand is not some crazy out of this world ideal.
It's funny you bring up the disco ball scandal, since that had absolutely nothing to do with any kind of sense. Common, uncommon or otherwise.
Oh I totally agree. However, to honestly sit there and say that it wouldn't be an issue when this is what happens here is totally naive or ignorant or dishonest or any combination of thereof.
Complaining that doesn't make sense is best ignored.
Well, since apparently being asked via chat equals "being assaulted by some disgusting, rude sperglord", I really don't see the difference.
As I said, I'd like to have this feature but I won't die if I don't and if I see something that I can't identify, I usually send out a /tell. More often then not, I get absolute silence. Once I was even put on ignore for asking "hey, cool rifle! Can I ask which one is that?".
All in all, even though I highly doubt they're ever gonna implent an inspect feature, I hope they do give the option of disabling it - in a "nobody can inspect you, but you can't inspect anyone either" kinda way because fair is fair - so that everyone will be happy.
Thinly veiled insults, calling out people for thinking differently than you and arguing about "rights" and "feeling assulted" by a simple question is, quite frankly, blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Labeling anything you don't agree with as a contradiction to 'common sense' is an extremely short sided viewpoint.
You do not define common sense.
I never made any claims about defining anything for everyone. You're putting words in my mouth and misinterpreted my post.
In a community where Disco ball use is equated to real life physical assault, it should be a no-brainer there will be many who will abuse any inspect feature to grief others that don't meet their "standards". If that's not common sense to you, I don't know what to tell you.
But hey, you all want to judge and exclude others for what gear they are carrying, more power to you. I personally don't need to know what others have. Nor do I see using available tools as such an overwhelming burden. If fleetmates and I want to talk about builds or have questions about something, we, you know, talk to each other.
Fear has nothing to do with it. More like common sense.
This basically reads to me as anyone who's wanting an inspect feature is opposing "common sense."
Also I'm sorry but no, disco balls are nothing like a real life physical assault. No just a billion times no. With that said virtually every other MMO out there today with SWTOR and WoW being 2 primary examples have an inspect function and you rarely hear about gear shaming and such. There's the odd person who tries to DPS shame now and again with the combat log now, yet that's not a valid enough reason to remove the combat log. No feature is 100% abuse proof as that simply doesn't exist.
The other thing you miss is that if someone joins a group and is woefully under-equipped it can and does effect the team. If someone is not pulling their weight and pulling the basic minimum the queue requires, whether that's 10k, or 50k, then they are guaranteeing that run to fail and are being allowed to negatively impact the gaming experience of the other 4 people in there because they joined something they were not yet ready for. No one person is so important that their experience should trump the other 4 people. Once our hypothetical person gets a little more equipment and ups their output, then they will be ready for that queue. A prime example I've been using is Korfez and HSE. You have to bring the thunder for those queues. If your team doesn't have it, then you will fail just by the design of the queue itself. That's not players imposing those limits, that's the game itself. With Korfez if you don't have the damage output and strategy to clear that first wave, it automatically fails you. I want everyone to be able to get into Korfez, HSE, and other queues in game, but not before they're ready for it. That's not judging, that's expecting that if someone is joining a queue, they're able to pull the basic minimum required by the queue itself. If they can't do that then they don't need to be in there. Expecting others to eat a failed queue in the name of inclusiveness is not my idea of fun. I really don't get why it's so unreasonable to some people to expect folks are able to put forth a basic minimum amount of effort instead of leaching off the team. I really don't get that in today's game.
As for the inspect function, it's a quality of life tool that would be a valuable asset in sharing builds without having to resort to 3rd party tools or otherwise, much like an official Cryptic parser would be for the combat log. You don't lose the ability to communicate with people just because an inspect feature is implemented. Sto Academy is super behind on updates, and things like Discord are 3rd party. Even then I have to ask, what's the difference between something like the screen sharer in Discord showing a person's build and an in game inspect feature? You've yet to explain that or how you're harmed by someone knowing your build. You've also not answered the question, if someone is such a private person that the mere thought of someone being able to see their build in game is considered an invasion of privacy, why are they playing MMOs to start with if they're that private of a person? MMOs require you to interact with other people to do many forms of content. Why play MMOs at all if someone is that private of a person knowing full well it requires you to give away as much in-game data as it does? I really don't understand that.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
In my opinion both sides of this utterly meaningless argument are being equally insulting to the other. Neither has any kind of moral or other high ground either.
I never insulted anyone. So I hope I am not being included. I am in favor of a toggle on/off for an Inspect feature. As previous posters have said a combat parser as well as looking at the icons and bars can show what a person has. But yet I would like the insults to stop and people to act and talk like the one on the other side is a fellow human being.
Something about a pot and kettle and black comes to mind, but whatever. For a true inspection system around here you would either need a white glove or a rubber glove or both.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
As for the inspect function, it's a quality of life tool that would be a valuable asset in sharing builds without having to resort to 3rd party tools or otherwise, much like an official Cryptic parser would be for the combat log. You don't lose the ability to communicate with people just because an inspect feature is implemented. Sto Academy is super behind on updates, and things like Discord are 3rd party. Even then I have to ask, what's the difference between something like the screen sharer in Discord showing a person's build and an in game inspect feature? You've yet to explain that or how you're harmed by someone knowing your build. You've also not answered the question, if someone is such a private person that the mere thought of someone being able to see their build in game is considered an invasion of privacy, why are they playing MMOs to start with if they're that private of a person? MMOs require you to interact with other people to do many forms of content. Why play MMOs at all if someone is that private of a person knowing full well it requires you to give away as much in-game data as it does? I really don't understand that.
Yeah it's not like your build is any real secret. If I'm doing ground, people will see the gun I'm using every time I fire it. Anyone willing to call me a loser for using a "junk" gun would still call me a loser even if they can't use an inspect feature.
Something about a pot and kettle and black comes to mind, but whatever. For a true inspection system around here you would either need a white glove or a rubber glove or both.
Yep, especially when people that don't care about it either way feel the need to come into the thread and call the discussion an "utterly meaningless argument" with their usal condescension.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Labeling anything you don't agree with as a contradiction to 'common sense' is an extremely short sided viewpoint.
You do not define common sense.
I never made any claims about defining anything for everyone. You're putting words in my mouth and misinterpreted my post.
In a community where Disco ball use is equated to real life physical assault, it should be a no-brainer there will be many who will abuse any inspect feature to grief others that don't meet their "standards". If that's not common sense to you, I don't know what to tell you.
But hey, you all want to judge and exclude others for what gear they are carrying, more power to you. I personally don't need to know what others have. Nor do I see using available tools as such an overwhelming burden. If fleetmates and I want to talk about builds or have questions about something, we, you know, talk to each other.
Fear has nothing to do with it. More like common sense.
The other thing you miss is that if someone joins a group and is woefully under-equipped it can and does effect the team. If someone is not pulling their weight and pulling the basic minimum the queue requires, whether that's 10k, or 50k, then they are guaranteeing that run to fail and are being allowed to negatively impact the gaming experience of the other 4 people in there because they joined something they were not yet ready for. No one person is so important that their experience should trump the other 4 people. Once our hypothetical person gets a little more equipment and ups their output, then they will be ready for that queue.
Inspect tool does not change this or prevent this. At all.
A prime example I've been using is Korfez and HSE. You have to bring the thunder for those queues. If your team doesn't have it, then you will fail just by the design of the queue itself. That's not players imposing those limits, that's the game itself. With Korfez if you don't have the damage output and strategy to clear that first wave, it automatically fails you. I want everyone to be able to get into Korfez, HSE, and other queues in game, but not before they're ready for it. That's not judging, that's expecting that if someone is joining a queue, they're able to pull the basic minimum required by the queue itself. If they can't do that then they don't need to be in there. Expecting others to eat a failed queue in the name of inclusiveness is not my idea of fun. I really don't get why it's so unreasonable to some people to expect folks are able to put forth a basic minimum amount of effort instead of leaching off the team. I really don't get that in today's game.
Taking everything here as true, still nothing here has anything to do with the inspect tool. It won't stop people from joining randoms unprepared or ungeared or whatever. Not at all. So why are you bringing these issues up?
As for the inspect function, it's a quality of life tool that would be a valuable asset in sharing builds without having to resort to 3rd party tools or otherwise, much like an official Cryptic parser would be for the combat log. You don't lose the ability to communicate with people just because an inspect feature is implemented. Sto Academy is super behind on updates, and things like Discord are 3rd party. Even then I have to ask, what's the difference between something like the screen sharer in Discord showing a person's build and an in game inspect feature? You've yet to explain that or how you're harmed by someone knowing your build. You've also not answered the question, if someone is such a private person that the mere thought of someone being able to see their build in game is considered an invasion of privacy, why are they playing MMOs to start with if they're that private of a person? MMOs require you to interact with other people to do many forms of content. Why play MMOs at all if someone is that private of a person knowing full well it requires you to give away as much in-game data as it does? I really don't understand that.
And if I can only say it yet again, and I believe valoreah has already stated it too, I'm not against that. Have your inspect tool! I don't think anyone one is saying, "NO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!111oneeleven!" Just put in a simple opt in/out toggle! Everyone is happy then! Why is this so hard to understand?
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Expecting others to eat a failed queue in the name of inclusiveness is not my idea of fun. I really don't get why it's so unreasonable to some people to expect folks are able to put forth a basic minimum amount of effort instead of leaching off the team. I really don't get that in today's game. [...]
because thats what cryptic tought us with basically all of the latest queust. close to all of them could be finished while being afk or doing maybe 1 thing at least on advanced, some even on elite.
and since thats the new standart based on the latest statements it wont change. we will be more likely see those more difficult queues removed
[...]
Expecting others to eat a failed queue in the name of inclusiveness is not my idea of fun. I really don't get why it's so unreasonable to some people to expect folks are able to put forth a basic minimum amount of effort instead of leaching off the team. I really don't get that in today's game. [...]
because thats what cryptic tought us with basically all of the latest queust. close to all of them could be finished while being afk or doing maybe 1 thing at least on advanced, some even on elite.
and since thats the new standart based on the latest statements it wont change. we will be more likely see those more difficult queues removed
It saddens me Kael said that in the latest livestream. Also that is the mindset "Jesse" is going with. "Old school" design? I think you devs need a reality check in regards to MMOs.
Never thought I would have to say that.
Also, i think alot of posters may not have realized. But i honesty believe cryptic have alrealy have internal discussions regarding a feature like this (my opinion only btw). STO gateway portal I think was honesty a direction they wanted to go. However internal shifts and shifts within the game made their development priorities move elsewhere.
Also the fact that people wanted gateway to do things by not logging into the game, which is the exact opposite of basically every MMO dev wants you to do.
As i think i related in a previous post. I suspect its a cost effective decision. The development time, support time after it is deployed and the cost verus what it would gain them just must not be feasible.
And no, the game is not funded entirely off player good will and rainbows Real world here folks Sadly good will doesnt play the bills.
And before someone says "Oh do this and I/players will buy more from the c store" please show me your third party verifable proof that this would happen
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PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I don't really see the need for it.
People harass other people now from time to time whether one may feel its deserved or not. If someone is harassing another person that says more about them than anything else. You're never going to completely eliminate the harassment problem no matter what you do. This is why folks are given the ability to place folks on ignore and if it gets to be serious enough you can report them. Any sensible person is going to realize not everyone is at the same gear level or has the same resources as more veteran players. However I fail to see what's so unreasonable about expecting a basic minimum amount of effort and gear from people. If a queue needs 50k dps to complete and all mk xiii very rare minimum for you to survive it, and you can't meet those goals, you are not ready for the queue and your presence is a drain on the team until you up your game. That doesn't mean the player is bad, it simply means that particular content is not targeted towards them since they're not ready for it yet.
Secondly you do not need fleet gear to succeed in game. Fleet gear is a nice set of stuff to invest in but absolutely not required. Anyone telling you otherwise is straight up lying to you. Finally someone knowing my build is not showing me disrespect nor is someone analyzing parse data and my buff bars showing me disrespect. If you go into a TFO you are giving away most of your build data anyways by virtue of the buff bars and the in-game combat log if someone has it running. All the 3rd party parsers do is read what's already there and break it down faster than you can by hand. I would buy the privacy argument if you're not already giving away all of that data to start with. it's not an invasion of privacy if you're willingly giving the data away, which is what you do by entering a TFO. Again this isn't real life personal information we're talking about, but stats in a video game. Furthermore if you are not pulling your weight it can and does effect the team, and no one person is so important in game that they should be allowed a free ride at the expense of the other 4 people. Most people will not care what kind of gear you have as long as you can pull the basic minimum to get through the run. It's been that way even in games like WoW for years.
So you're telling me, that if I am forming a group to do a TFO run or if I'm forming a raid group (WoW) I have no right know what they have and that they can carry their own weight, and should just take whoever applies first? Sorry but no it doesn't work like that. If I am going into a Korfez or HSE run as just a hypothetical, I'm not going to invite the guy who has only been playing a week and only pulling 20k and has only mk xi very rare gear, because he's going to get trounced and the run will fail. Quite simply put he's not ready yet. In time he will be, but that time isn't now.
I am not saying gear is the end all be all decision maker as to whether someone can carry their own weight or not. However you can often at times tell alot about a person's experience level by the kinds of builds they're putting together. Are they throwing on a smattering of cannons, turrets, beams, torps, and mines, or are they sticking to one type of weapons such as cannons, or beams with maybe a set piece torp mixed in? Are they running antiproton but using all polaron gear? Are they running a phaser beam array setup and packing full phaser gear or other gear that backs up their weapons? Even if they're running only mk xii gear from the story missions, is it at least a cohesive build? No it's not a perfect indication but you can get a fair idea of the experience level from that as well as how much effort they've put into the build to get something cohesive.
It's 100% unfair to the other 4 guys in the run to expect them to carry a 5th person who is not ready for the run, even if those 4 guys are capable of doing so. No it won't completely eliminate that stuff, but the inspect feature gives people a tool that can be used to eliminate situations like this. It also gives a tool that can be used to help out fleetmates and people to improve the game as a whole. Not to mention as another has pointed out, even in Trek itself, they could scan various other ships and tell what they're running. One could almost say it's untrek-like for us not to have it but that's another can of worms entirely.
Aside from the harassment argument, which already has in game solutions to it, folks have not demonstrated the harm in someone knowing their build.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
You wont know all there traits and skill tree, but you can design a decent picture of what they may have under the hood in your head.
Me personally, if someone wants to inspect my build I am fully OK with that. If someone wants to harass me because i might only do 50k to 75k DPS, I will just ignore them or report them.
You aren't wrong, but neither is he. If you see a ship with lower end gear, it doesn't necessarily mean the player is inexperienced. As you pointed out in another post, it could be an experienced player on an Alt. However, if you look at their build and they have a beam/cannon hybrid with no cool down reduction, 5 alloy consoles and bridge officer powers that don't boost anything they're actually using.. you get your answer very quickly. It doesn't take long to tell the difference between a sensible lower end build and someone that's just mindlessly throwing anything on their ship.
By no means do I think that gives anyone a reason to harass that player, but that would be someone I would offer help to if they wanted it.
Agreed, either way.. lets stop the hyperbole.. no one's 'rights' are in danger either way.
Very true, harassment currently exists even without an 'inspect' feature, and those determined to harass will use any method available to them to do so. The solution is not to hamper game development or withhold useful features out of fear of how these people will use such a feature. The solution is to report and ignore those players.
The main upside I see to an inspect feature is that it would make it much easier to share builds in game for those that wanted to share ideas. That seems like a good thing to me, and while I realize some might use it to try and troll, those people are going to troll either way.
There is no need to invent a tool that will allow harassment either. Why is it no one has any argument against a checkbox to opt out/in? I've made it fairly obvious, I think, that I'm not unsympathetic to the desire to have an easy way to inspect someone's build, but you shouldn't be able to intrude on anyone and everyone if they want to opt out. What is wrong with that? Seriously, this is the obvious solution that makes everyone happy. Why do you care about knowing my build if I want to opt out to the point that you think I should have no choice in the matter?
And what does this inspect feature offer you if someone isn't up to par? Yeah some queues may require certain DPS to complete. Which ones I'm not sure. ISA certainly doesn't require DPS, it requires DPS or nanite sphere control. One improved gravity well and someone keeping it up on the gate is enough to give the other 4 infinite time for however good or bad their DPS may be.
But even still, so what if someone isn't up to par? Inspect doesn't fix that, nor does it necessarily tell you who the weak link is. It also doesn't tell you much unless they are in QL 2 gear or something obvious. You can run around in mk 15 gear with a super expensive build and do terrible DPS afterall. They just don't know how to use it all well. Your parser already tells you who is the weak link and you don't need inspect to tell you that. If you're not using a parser then you honestly don't know that the person with low gear is doing badly.
I'm also aware that fleet gear is totally unnecessary, and I'm sure everyone else in this thread knows that as well. That isn't the issue. The issue is there are other people don't comprehend that and are the type to harass about it, just like they would harass about having mk 12 gear in advanced. No there's nothing wrong with that either, obviously, but the harasser type is the kind of elitist that expects everyone to have mk 15 and fleet gear and if you don't you suck.
And again, inspect doesn't help you with someone who isn't pulling their weight nor does it even help you find out that detail. Your parser is the only thing that tells you that, and even then it doesn't tell you how their other actions may have been beneficial. Maybe they were spamming extend shields and other heals that kept your big DPSers able to focus on DPS and had tons of control expertise for their grav wells to amazingly gather the entire map for the ever exciting chain warp core breach game, but not enough part gens to do any useful damage.
I mean just consider two situations. Take the high control grav well and put it on the gateway in ISA. Now what about putting it on the nanite controllers? Same DPS in both situation, but one is far worse for the team. Now imagine your gateway grav well person has poor gear, other than getting enough controlx for that to work, and imagine your nanite controller grav well person has great gear. Who is the real liability? The parser doesn't necessarily tell you the problem. Inspect definitely does not.
Ultimately the only thing inspect lets you do is go after someone for their gear if you think it isn't up to par in this situation. That is the sort of thing that should be avoided, no matter how helpful you're trying to be because no one reacts well to unsolicited advice. Other people have argued an interest in high performing builds, which is fine, as is the interest in helping poor performers who ask for help, but if they don't want help or don't want to share, then why should they be forced to do so and reveal every little detail that the parser can't uncover?
It appears based off this last line in your statement here the answer to my previous question you quoted is yes, I should have to take just whoever. Again sorry doesn't work like that.
I'm well aware this isn't WoW and STO doesn't have full on raid tiers like WoW, however it does have tiered difficulty and certain missions require certain amounts of minimum effort in order to clear them. Also once again, I never said their gear was a perfect indicator of their ability. What I did say was that it can give a rough idea of their experience level, rough as in not perfect but general ballpark. If someone is using a smattering of cannons, beams, turrets, torps, and mines, and their powers aren't boosting anything there hardly, then its a safe assumption they threw just anything on the ship. If they're running antiproton but have all polaron gear, then again, it's a safe bet they don't realize what they're doing. If they have a lower end build that's all mk xi and xii gear from missions but is otherwise a basic cohesive build, then it's a safe assumption they have a basic idea of what they're doing and have put in a little time and effort. No gear alone isn't an indication of skill, but if they've put in the time and effort to at least get a basic cohesive build, then that tells me they can probably do the basic minimum at least. Otherwise if they're making alot of rookie mistakes that veteran players wouldn't do, then it's a safe bet they're not that experienced. I really don't see why some people seem so opposed to folks having to put forth a basic minimum amount of effort that at least requires people to be conscious at their keyboard.
In regards to builds, there is no winner take all "best" build in the game. However if the goal is to clear content in a reasonable time frame and be able to contribute to a team if/when you are teamed, there are some builds out there which are objectively bad and subpar for both of those tasks. In addition to this there are certain gear levels and damage levels someone needs to get to for certain missions in this game or they're going to get trounced. In the case of Korfez or HSE, if you don't have a decent gear level and you can't put out the damage, you're going to fail. There is no if, and, or but about it, if the team can't meet basic minimums, you will fail. The same is true with alot of other elites in game, if you can't meet basic minimums for certain queues, you will fail. That's not me hyping it up, but the actual design of the queues. If a veteran player is working on an alt, then they will 95% for certain have a basic cohesive build on the ship, even if it's just a bunch of mk xii greens they picked up from the exchange.
For your information I already have a fleet of my own, in fact I am the alpha fleet of my armada and the only thing at the moment we don't have completely maxed out is the colony. As for your other point on this, I don't mind dealing with people who don't have the resources I do, or haven't been around as long as I have and on down the line. I also don't mind dealing with people who deal less damage than I do as those folks are always going to be around. What I do expect however is if a queue requires a minimum of 50k dps and mk xii very rare gear to succeed, that people are able to meet those goals. If they can't, then they don't need to be in that run just yet because it negatively impacts the rest of the team, and the other 4 people are the one's paying for it. Yes I know I can always queue with a fleet, but that's not what the discussion was about. The discussion was about an inspect feature and why we want it, and a sort of sub discussion of how it could effect random runs. Even then the "go with your fleet" only works if your fleet is online. If you want to just log in and do something yourself it's either hit the randoms or do nothing at all. Now getting back on topic.
Every feature can be abused in some form or fashion. The combat meters can be abused now, but the benefits out-weight the downsides. They allow folks to see how hard, or not hard, they're hitting and it tells them if they're on the right track or need improvement. Yes there are some folks who try to DPS shame, but there will always be folks out there like that who try to shame whether someone needs to step up their game or not. That's still not a valid enough reason to deny the rest of the playerbase the use of such a critical tool. Likewise with the inspect feature, this allows people to make informed decisions of who they're going to bring if they're forming a private run, or when helping people out, or seeking help. If a fleetmate asks for help, all I have to do is inspect them and I can tell them exactly what to do instead of them having to link it all or fill out some skill planner build page, especially since the skill planner needs some massive updates now.
The inspect feature has been part of games like WoW, SWTOR, and other MMOs for as long as they've been around, and I don't see the widespread harassment you hint at. Yes you have a few tools that try harass people, but those people are few and far between like the DPS shamers these days. If the concern is harassment, that's already easily addressed by putting them on ignore and reporting them for harassing you if necessary.
To answer your question, if I am hosting a private run and I inspect someone and see they don't meet what I consider to be the standard for my private run then yes I will boot them from team and they will not be coming. The key difference there is a private run vs a public. If it's a private run I control who I bring and who I don't. If it's a public run then folks are free to queue for whatever, however they should at least be made to meet the basic minimum standards required by the queue and game mechanics themselves. If they can't, then they're not ready for that queue yet.
The only type of queue folks can be kicked from at the moment is a private queue group. They can't be kicked from a public group. There is a major difference between the two. Private queue groups have the right to set whatever standards they want for their groups. There is currently no kick feature for public groups so that's not a valid argument. Secondly if all someone is doing is kicking you from a private group that's not harassment. If they're constantly whispering you, trashing you in zone, or bypassing an ignore to keep spamming you with whispers, invites, etc, THAT is harassment. If that's going on then you report them as there are already systems in place to deal with this sort of thing. Otherwise it's not a valid reason as to why such a valuable feature should be denied to everyone in game because of a few tools. That's like saying the combat meter in game should be removed because of the few bad apples.
Once again there are already systems in place to deal with this sort of thing. If harassment is going on then report it and ignore them. Otherwise this isn't a valid enough reason on its own to deny such a valuable tool to the entire playerbase. It's the same principle as the combat log that's used by the DPS parsers. The combat log itself is a game function. Yes some folks like to DPS shame but those folks are few and far between, and typically get shut down pretty fast. Once again there is no intrusion as you voluntarily give up that data every time you enter a TFO via your buff bars, and the combat log itself. If you're that private of a person then again I will ask, why are you playing MMOs to start with, especially when you know you're giving away that much of your "privacy" in that case? You know up front the team can see your buff bars, and everyone has access to a combat log if they so choose. What's wrong is when someone expects that they should be allowed to impact another person's gameplay without that other person having the ability to know who or what they're dealing with. You've still yet to explain other than potential harassment, which can happen with or without inspect, as to how a potential inspect would effect you. What harm is it bringing to you? If I am forming a group or such, why should I not be allowed to know what those people are bringing to the table before hand? Why should I not be allowed to inspect their gear and make sure they're up to snuff?
If I'm forming a private group and someone isn't up to par, it gives me enough data to know I'm not taking that person along. Korfez and HSE are 2 examples of queues that require basic minimums. Herald sphere is another one when trying to stop ships from entering the portals, and keep the starting science ships alive. Even in ISA you still need a basic minimum DPS to kill the transformers, spheres and others, it just happens to be very very low in that run, but it does exist.
No inspect on its own doesn't fix things if someone isn't up to par, but assuming someone wants to improve and do better, it lets you see where they are so you can help them improve. If a guy says to me he's having trouble staying alive and wants to know of some gear and traits he could use to stay alive, I can inspect him and say "I see you don't have anything to give you extra damage resistances, try picking up the Trellium D Plating since it buffs damage resist and shield capacity, and try picking up Redirected Armor Plating." Thus the inspect feature has allowed for them to improve and assistance to be rendered in a timely manor. If after the run the guy messages me and says "I noticed you're using a turret on your disruptor build even though you're all beams, can I ask why you're using that turret." I can then tell them "I'm using the bio-molecular turret along with the tac console for the 2 piece bonus it provides," and then explain why.
If someone is doing badly with low gear that's not magically going to change just because I'm not using the parser. If they're doing badly while I'm using the parser they're probably doing bad without me using the parser assuming nothing has changed. I already explained above how one's choice of build can reveal alot about their experience level. No it's not a perfect indicator but it tells you more than you think. If I see someone exploding 10+ times in a run and it's only on normal, then I know that person is having issues of some kind. If I inspect them and see they're using a smattering of different weapons where nothing is the same, and their gear/boffs/traits aren't boosting anything they're using, and they have no damage resist to speak of, I can offer them assistance based on that. Either they will accept and improve, or they will tell me off and continue to have issues. Either way it's on them.
Once again harassers are going to be the way they are no matter what. There's always going to be someone who thinks they're better than what they are or tries to harass other people. That's what the ignore and report buttons are for. Mk xii is more than enough for advanced content. Once you get into elite, then yeah you're going to want more than that, but otherwise there are more than enough missions for folks to get at least mk xii very rare in every slot. Otherwise ignore those people.
Once again no inspect on its own doesn't fix the issue, but it can give you a starting point to do it and helps eliminate gear as the cause. At the same time to cite issues of people putting a grav well in the wrong spot as to why inspect shouldn't be a thing is like trying to say I as an adult shouldn't be allowed to eat a steak because a baby can't chew it. They have nothing to do with each other. If someone doesn't have a basic cohesive build and can't pull the basic minimum required by the queue, and you also have someone flinging grav wells everywhere without thought to the consequences, then both of them are liabilities.
And no inspect isn't a tool designed purely for griefing. I've already explained how it can be beneficial as have others. If you choose to ignore those points an not listen, that's on you. I could also ask, why should 4 other people be forced to carry someone who has queued for something they're not ready for yet? How is that fair to them? That however is a different can of worms. You already give away all of the data needed to decipher your build whenever you go into a TFO to start with via buff bars and also the combat log. So if you're really that concerned about privacy, then again I will ask, why are you playing MMOs to start with that literally require you to interact with other people in order to play certain content?
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Fear is not an excuse to prevent the development of tools that could enhance the overall game experience. It's debatable rather or not this feature falls into that category, but if the developers believe that this feature would be useful, then the fact that some people might misuse it is not a valid reason to halt it's development.
The report comment was for players that harass others because of their gear. Send them unwanted tells, etc.. just use block/report and be done with it. The game currently has no 'kick' feature.
Overall, the argument is moot.. if Cryptic felt this option was a good idea, they would have added it by now. It's been 10 years without an inspect feature, I see no reason to believe it will ever happen. It's more a discussion on 'what if,' and probably won't go any further then that. My suspicion is that Cryptic agrees with you and thinks it has more negative then positive. I personally disagree, but obviously they don't care what I think.
I think also it might be development time. Exactly what would be the requirement and cost for developing a feature like this and supporting it. Exactly what "funds" would it bring into the game if any. While some features are nice, if they are very costly to create/implement and you are not going to get anything back, welll....
With that, I also mean that while they may not get revenue from it, could they use the system they create for inspect to massively improve the game in other areas or overall. Could they use parts of the system to retrofit the visuals system, or maybe even the visuals of gear etc. Could you use the inspect system to copy a starship look? So its patterns etc.
That way, if someone said "Hey cool, i like the look of your starship" they could use the inspect system to maybe "copy" the look to theirs if they are the same class.
And why is it my job to report harassers when it could be prevented entirely with a toggle switch? Why should I have to put in that extra effort to fill out a complaint every time I get harassed thanks to this feature? That is MY time I could be spending on playing the game instead used to report some jerk simply because there is no toggle to turn off my info.
The development of this inspect feature would unquestionably take a lot of time. There is too much to a character build, between BOFFs, DOFFS, actual gear, traits, skill points, spec points, endeavors and so forth, none of which is displayed on the same page, for developing this tool to not be a serious undertaking. They did stop the Gateway afterall which showed less info. The addition of a checkbox/toggle/whatever is only a few lines of code though, so why not do it?
I hate going in circles here, but you lot are being absurdly uncompromising and haven't provided one reason why someone should not have the choice.
A toggle is a good compromise, but I have seen it used in the past in a negative way, in other games (players excluded/kicked out if they refuse to toggle 'on').
Personally I've never seen the attraction of inspecting another persons equipment/build, I'd rather spend my time creating something that is unique to me. Especially when you get the passing fads where everyone clones the same build/equipment (Aux2bat ect).
I consider akin to looking at someone's resume. It doesn't tell you everything about them as you can't know that until you see them in action, but it does give you an idea of their experience level. You can absolutely get a ballpark estimate of someone's experience level by looking at their build. Again no, it's not perfect, nor have I ever claimed it to be. However it does let you see if they at least have the "on paper" experience and ability to do the job.
If I inspect a person and they're using a smattering of each kind of weapon, such as a beam array, a dual bank, a single cannon, a dual cannon, a torp, a mine, a turret, and an omni, their gear, traits, and powers aren't really boosting anything on their build, and all of those weapons are mixed energy types, then it's a safe bet the person doesn't know what they're doing. That's simply not something veteran players are going to do, because the build is all over the place and brings nothing to the table.
If I inspect a person and they're using all weapons of the same energy type, all the gear is mk xi or mk xii from missions, the powers, traits, and gear are boosting the build, but otherwise it's all just a lower rarity and grade, then I can safely assume that this is either a veteran player on an alt, or a moderately experienced player that's put together their first major build. This person should have at least a basic idea of what they're doing.
If I inspect a person and they're running all the same energy type, everything is mk xv epic, and the only thing that isn't golded out are the toilets on the ship itself, all of their traits, gear, and powers are boosting the build, and they're packing several lockbox/lobi/promo consoles and/or traits in the mix, then it's a safe bet this is someone who is a more experienced veteran player. Established veteran players usually have access to various ships and items that newer players simply don't just yet. Veteran players have also had more time to gather resources and upgrade their gear that newer players simply haven't had yet. If someone has taken the proper time to kit out a ship to that extent, and from all appearances had done the proper research for to get their build to that point on paper at least, then this is someone who should again know what they're doing.
None of those scenarios are perfect examples nor will I ever claim them to be. With that said however there are certain things and signs you can pick up for that veteran players simply don't do. No matter how you slice it a veteran player simply isn't going to make the kinds of mistakes that a day 2 rookie is going to make. A veteran player is going to know it's a bad idea to stack 5 armor consoles on a ship due to diminishing returns where as a rookie player probably won't. A veteran player is going to know it's best to stick with one energy type in 95% of all cases, and also to stick to one type of weapon. An example of this being using dual banks up front and then omni weapons in the back. Or in the case of cannons, all cannons up front and turrets in the back. Heck I've seen builds that use nothing but turrets pull over 100k and shred things. Point being there are simply certain things a veteran player will do that a rookie player won't. Many of these things can be spotted purely by looking at a person's on paper build.
As one final example on this. There is a fleetmate of mine who has begged me for at least 2-3 years to take them into a Battle of Korfez run with the rest of the fleet. Each time they've asked, I've asked them how their ship is looking, what they're running, and so on. Each time they'll tell me what they have, and so far it's been a smattering of different weapons, boff powers that don't boost anything they're using, none of the powers are heals, and subpar un-upgraded gear. By un-upgraded gear I mean things like mk ix ultra rares that will get outclassed by basic mk xii very rares. Just by the on paper stats alone they do not have the means to pull their own weight in the run, nor would they survive getting hit even once by some of the ships in there. So far up to this point they have refused to learn and understand why I won't take them on a Korfez run. By linking the same old tired items again and again I can tell they've not learned and are refusing to do so. When they eventually show me a basic cohesive build of at least mk xv very rare, then I will take them into the run. Until then I won't. That's just one example of how I can tell if they've learned or not.
Simply because you don't see the need for it does NOT make it "common sense" for there not to be an inspect feature, nor do you have exclusive claim as to what "common sense" is. One can certainly use fleet channels and such to display a build, but to do so requires linking a ton of items and remembering what those are, which in a moderate sized fleet can get lost in the chat quickly. Plus it also spams the fleet chat. Discord and the web tools you've mentioned are also 3rd party and can still take a ton of time to plug everything into them, thus making it take longer than it needs to in order to get someone the help they've requested/need. An inspect feature is simply a flip of a switch and you can see what you need.
Now I will agree with you on one thing, if someone asks another person about their build currently and that other person says they don't want to talk about it, then that should be respected. That much I agree with because you're sending the person an unwanted tell. However that's not the same as simply flipping a switch.
Also tell me, what's the difference between someone seeing your build via Discord's video sharing tool and an inspect feature in game? Why is one okay but not the other even though they do the same thing?
Folks have already explained why it would be a valuable tool. If you choose not to use it to look at builds then more power to you. Otherwise a small handful saying they don't like it is not a valid enough reason to deny it to the rest of the playerbase. In terms of time to develop, things like the Winter Wonderland and similar don't exactly make alot of cash but they're still valuable. For that matter the Combat log can be lumped in there as well. It doesn't make them cash but it's still a necessary tool.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Labeling anything you don't agree with as a contradiction to 'common sense' is an extremely short sided viewpoint.
You do not define common sense.
Oh, sorry.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The OP suggested a feature they'd like to see in game; it's nothing revolutionary nor is it something imperative to have.
There are prons and cons to it, and that's that.
Chill out everyone. No one here is speaking for the entire playerbase - and thank god for that - so sit back and relax.
Everyone is expressing their own opinion and you're all free to disagree with each other, but damn. We're not talking about some fundamental truth or some inalienable right.
RNJesus.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Now who's putting words in peoples mouth?
At least I based my opinion on what you actually typed.. you're just pulling this out of your backside.
Typical of you, and it's on me for thinking you would be capable of any type of civil conversation. Someone attacks your words, you attack them personally.. not a surprise considering the source.
Why don't you go ahead and get the last word in now and we'll be done with it.
I do feel the deja vu in some of the arguments here, but I wouldn't have expected the "no" side to bring it up first.
If this is a needed feature for the game well we have managed what 9 years with out it so far. So i don't see the game falling apart over not having the ability to place a random person under a microscope.
As to privacy and the ideal of it not being a thing in game and you give away your information any way. Well if you want to pick thru the information and deconstruct or reverse engineer a build more power to you no one is saying that information should be less.
But it should also be respected for those not wanting the inspection and rather talk to a person in regards to build item or otherwise.
all this regarding i have a reason to know cause i am in a tfo with x random person to see who is not pulling there part. In a word NO! you have no reason or right. If anything you by clicking the join have decided to take what ever you may get. Not that the other person has decided to get some probe of them self from some random player.
If you "MUST KNOW" what is in your tfo private or fleet for a team for it.
I do not care in regards to how it is worded there is no right to know, and a person if only in a mental state that even causes anxiety over being berated shamed or attacked over this feature is more than enough let there be a opt out as well as opt in.
As to my own feelings on it. If i want to try for as high a dps or meta build i can get. Or if i want to load up the defiant in all common gear and grab my set of holo DS9 bridge officers dress in the admiralty uniform from the ds9 set and have theme night blue quality Bajoran ground weapons. Then that is my option to do so with out question or scanned by some random passer by that wont engage me in a chat.
The same as i turn down random friend requests that have never talked to me. I opt to provide information to those i talk with. The ideal that in a mmo i want to chat and know something of the person that wants to use me as a slide under a microscope before hand is not some crazy out of this world ideal.
As I said, I'd like to have this feature but I won't die if I don't and if I see something that I can't identify, I usually send out a /tell. More often then not, I get absolute silence. Once I was even put on ignore for asking "hey, cool rifle! Can I ask which one is that?".
All in all, even though I highly doubt they're ever gonna implent an inspect feature, I hope they do give the option of disabling it - in a "nobody can inspect you, but you can't inspect anyone either" kinda way because fair is fair - so that everyone will be happy.
Thinly veiled insults, calling out people for thinking differently than you and arguing about "rights" and "feeling assulted" by a simple question is, quite frankly, blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
that will take umbrage and respond accordingly.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
In an earlier post you said and I quote below.
This basically reads to me as anyone who's wanting an inspect feature is opposing "common sense."
Also I'm sorry but no, disco balls are nothing like a real life physical assault. No just a billion times no. With that said virtually every other MMO out there today with SWTOR and WoW being 2 primary examples have an inspect function and you rarely hear about gear shaming and such. There's the odd person who tries to DPS shame now and again with the combat log now, yet that's not a valid enough reason to remove the combat log. No feature is 100% abuse proof as that simply doesn't exist.
The other thing you miss is that if someone joins a group and is woefully under-equipped it can and does effect the team. If someone is not pulling their weight and pulling the basic minimum the queue requires, whether that's 10k, or 50k, then they are guaranteeing that run to fail and are being allowed to negatively impact the gaming experience of the other 4 people in there because they joined something they were not yet ready for. No one person is so important that their experience should trump the other 4 people. Once our hypothetical person gets a little more equipment and ups their output, then they will be ready for that queue. A prime example I've been using is Korfez and HSE. You have to bring the thunder for those queues. If your team doesn't have it, then you will fail just by the design of the queue itself. That's not players imposing those limits, that's the game itself. With Korfez if you don't have the damage output and strategy to clear that first wave, it automatically fails you. I want everyone to be able to get into Korfez, HSE, and other queues in game, but not before they're ready for it. That's not judging, that's expecting that if someone is joining a queue, they're able to pull the basic minimum required by the queue itself. If they can't do that then they don't need to be in there. Expecting others to eat a failed queue in the name of inclusiveness is not my idea of fun. I really don't get why it's so unreasonable to some people to expect folks are able to put forth a basic minimum amount of effort instead of leaching off the team. I really don't get that in today's game.
As for the inspect function, it's a quality of life tool that would be a valuable asset in sharing builds without having to resort to 3rd party tools or otherwise, much like an official Cryptic parser would be for the combat log. You don't lose the ability to communicate with people just because an inspect feature is implemented. Sto Academy is super behind on updates, and things like Discord are 3rd party. Even then I have to ask, what's the difference between something like the screen sharer in Discord showing a person's build and an in game inspect feature? You've yet to explain that or how you're harmed by someone knowing your build. You've also not answered the question, if someone is such a private person that the mere thought of someone being able to see their build in game is considered an invasion of privacy, why are they playing MMOs to start with if they're that private of a person? MMOs require you to interact with other people to do many forms of content. Why play MMOs at all if someone is that private of a person knowing full well it requires you to give away as much in-game data as it does? I really don't understand that.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I never insulted anyone. So I hope I am not being included. I am in favor of a toggle on/off for an Inspect feature. As previous posters have said a combat parser as well as looking at the icons and bars can show what a person has. But yet I would like the insults to stop and people to act and talk like the one on the other side is a fellow human being.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Inspect tool does not change this or prevent this. At all.
Taking everything here as true, still nothing here has anything to do with the inspect tool. It won't stop people from joining randoms unprepared or ungeared or whatever. Not at all. So why are you bringing these issues up?
And if I can only say it yet again, and I believe valoreah has already stated it too, I'm not against that. Have your inspect tool! I don't think anyone one is saying, "NO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!111oneeleven!" Just put in a simple opt in/out toggle! Everyone is happy then! Why is this so hard to understand?
because thats what cryptic tought us with basically all of the latest queust. close to all of them could be finished while being afk or doing maybe 1 thing at least on advanced, some even on elite.
and since thats the new standart based on the latest statements it wont change. we will be more likely see those more difficult queues removed
ingame: @Felisean
It saddens me Kael said that in the latest livestream. Also that is the mindset "Jesse" is going with. "Old school" design? I think you devs need a reality check in regards to MMOs.
Never thought I would have to say that.
Also, i think alot of posters may not have realized. But i honesty believe cryptic have alrealy have internal discussions regarding a feature like this (my opinion only btw). STO gateway portal I think was honesty a direction they wanted to go. However internal shifts and shifts within the game made their development priorities move elsewhere.
Also the fact that people wanted gateway to do things by not logging into the game, which is the exact opposite of basically every MMO dev wants you to do.
As i think i related in a previous post. I suspect its a cost effective decision. The development time, support time after it is deployed and the cost verus what it would gain them just must not be feasible.
And no, the game is not funded entirely off player good will and rainbows
And before someone says "Oh do this and I/players will buy more from the c store" please show me your third party verifable proof that this would happen