BTW, I believe the plasma hazard in the boss room is meant to be reminiscent of the scene in First Contact where Data breaks the plasma tank to kill all the borg in engineering.
Yea pushing the drones into the plasma one by one, platform by platform was like the best way to deal with them in a time where a single agony field could not kill every Borg in the room at once.
Hard to imagine it in a day an age where players bring in the reasoning that it is unfair to set up a random group on a map without knowing which enemies they face.
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The only reason to remove IGA now is to fully acknowledge that the player-base right along with you and our community manager did not get better over the years but a lot worse at playing STO.
There are pretty much only 2 players arguing in favor of this change and it's obvious from their posts that neither one of them even plays this queue or understands it. You're arguing using facts as someone that actually knows the content against people that are effectively arguing because the queue is too much for them personally and they refuse to adapt.
At the end of the day, the message is clear. If a queue takes any type of adaptation on the part of the player.. even something as simple as having an 'anti borg' weapon in your inventory or asking someone to press the space bar to move from one large platform to another.. it's too hard.
and i mean, iga isnt really long. i mean like 8 minutes or so without even trying to speedrun it...
thats from the time equal/shorter than a lot of other timegated missions, like operation riposte as example
“Except you can't, since your DPS has zero effect on how long it takes to purify the crystals. With the time limit provided, its impossible to purify all the crystals in time just by yourself, or if everyone goes down the same lane at the same time. Pahvo Dissension is a TFO where DPS doesn't really matter since the objectives are tied to something that takes an amount of time you can't lower with DPS.”
That is incorrect as DPS and player skill has massive impact on how long the Pahvo Dissension TFO takes. There is a direct relation between how long it takes a team to purify the crystals and DPS.
The only reason DPS doesn’t matter is because Pahvo Dissension is one of those auto win missions where you cannot fail even if the entire team sit AFK though 95% of it, you still complete it. But saying that you are still wrong because the objectives are tied to DPS which impact the amount of time it takes by a noticeable amount.
If DPS has zero impact then explain to me how a high DPS groups can purify the crystals 33% faster if not half the time of a low DPS group? I have been in groups on Elite that have purify 100% of crystals faster then low DPS groups have on advanced. That is anything but zero impact.
Assuming the entire team are competent Pahvo Dissension is effectively just a big DPS slog where the only thing that matters is DPS and how long it takes to kill things.
The only reason to remove IGA now is to fully acknowledge that the player-base right along with you and our community manager did not get better over the years but a lot worse at playing STO.
There are pretty much only 2 players arguing in favor of this change and it's obvious from their posts that neither one of them even plays this queue or understands it. You're arguing using facts as someone that actually knows the content against people that are effectively arguing because the queue is too much for them personally and they refuse to adapt.
At the end of the day, the message is clear. If a queue takes any type of adaptation on the part of the player.. even something as simple as having an 'anti borg' weapon in your inventory or asking someone to press the space bar to move from one large platform to another.. it's too hard.
If it's not too hard.. you're an Elitist.
Yea in a way this thread really is like the first time I start to understand that being called an elitist is some sort of compliment.
and i mean, iga isnt really long. i mean like 8 minutes or so without even trying to speedrun it...
thats from the time equal/shorter than a lot of other timegated missions, like operation riposte as example
If it would not be so incredible boring an AFK stream of the most popular maps and how they complete on their own without player interaction would be a helpful undertaking for some to see. Then again the path that this is within the realm of very reasonable content for a video game as one still can tend to optionals if if one wants to has as already been laid.
“Except you can't, since your DPS has zero effect on how long it takes to purify the crystals. With the time limit provided, its impossible to purify all the crystals in time just by yourself, or if everyone goes down the same lane at the same time. Pahvo Dissension is a TFO where DPS doesn't really matter since the objectives are tied to something that takes an amount of time you can't lower with DPS.”
That is incorrect as DPS and player skill has massive impact on how long the Pahvo Dissension TFO takes. There is a direct relation between how long it takes a team to purify the crystals and DPS.
The only reason DPS doesn’t matter is because Pahvo Dissension is one of those auto win missions where you cannot fail even if the entire team sit AFK though 95% of it, you still complete it. But saying that you are still wrong because the objectives are tied to DPS which impact the amount of time it takes by a noticeable amount.
If DPS has zero impact then explain to me how a high DPS groups can purify the crystals 33% faster if not half the time of a low DPS group? I have been in groups on Elite that have purify 100% of crystals faster then low DPS groups have on advanced. That is anything but zero impact.
Assuming the entire team are competent Pahvo Dissension is effectively just a big DPS slog where the only thing that matters is DPS and how long it takes to kill things.
Like usual you have presented your arguments well here Pottsey. Problem just seems to be that the other side not only does not understand what you are talking about but it does not even want to understand it to begin with.
The only thing that could change its mind would be a Cryptic dev hinting that Borg content has some interesting aspects to it that other maps lack so it could be ruminated here in forums.
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“Except you can't, since your DPS has zero effect on how long it takes to purify the crystals. With the time limit provided, its impossible to purify all the crystals in time just by yourself, or if everyone goes down the same lane at the same time. Pahvo Dissension is a TFO where DPS doesn't really matter since the objectives are tied to something that takes an amount of time you can't lower with DPS.”
That is incorrect as DPS and player skill has massive impact on how long the Pahvo Dissension TFO takes. There is a direct relation between how long it takes a team to purify the crystals and DPS.
The only reason DPS doesn’t matter is because Pahvo Dissension is one of those auto win missions where you cannot fail even if the entire team sit AFK though 95% of it, you still complete it. But saying that you are still wrong because the objectives are tied to DPS which impact the amount of time it takes by a noticeable amount.
If DPS has zero impact then explain to me how a high DPS groups can purify the crystals 33% faster if not half the time of a low DPS group? I have been in groups on Elite that have purify 100% of crystals faster then low DPS groups have on advanced. That is anything but zero impact.
Assuming the entire team are competent Pahvo Dissension is effectively just a big DPS slog where the only thing that matters is DPS and how long it takes to kill things.
thats not the dps itself, thats the players focusing on placing the crystals and than holding back the infinite respawn till its purified.
usualy high dps players are more focused on such things than others. i mean i could just purify those crystals by setting up by starting with a security escort call and an echo papa, place the crystals and than place more crystal prisms to hold the line without even shooting myself at the enemies.
so there is a relation but its not the dps itself, just the general understanding of game mechanics
You can see that Defera 'suffers' being from the beforetimes. The Hard Assignments there require three to start, though these days they can be soloed beyond that.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
BTW, I believe the plasma hazard in the boss room is meant to be reminiscent of the scene in First Contact where Data breaks the plasma tank to kill all the borg in engineering.
Yea pushing the drones into the plasma one by one, platform by platform was like the best way to deal with them in a time where a single agony field could not kill every Borg in the room at once.
Hard to imagine it in a day an age where players bring in the reasoning that it is unfair to set up a random group on a map without knowing which enemies they face.
I remember that people often tended to switch to pulse wave weapons for the final room simply because those had a push back effect which was quite useful against the Borg.
Mines and Transphasic bombs (both shield pen and push back). IGA was/is quite manageable.
That said, i often encounter teams which seem to have no clue whatsoever and don't watch the team chat.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
IGA is pretty much DESIGNED for you to ignore tactics, and teammates. Its a linear corridor DPS slog where any sort of cooperation is only necessary for the 2-3 times you have to press buttons. This compared to something like Pahvo Dissension where teamwork is systemically required for the TFO, since, due to the amount of time you have, and the amount of time it takes the purify the Crystals, its literally impossible to purify them all in the time limit by yourself.
ROFLMAO
Infected was designed to require cooperation and tactics in every single room.
It was also designed as a 5-man story mission and NOT designed as a TFO, especially not as a TFO that people would get dumped into at random.
What are you talking about? Infected was the first STF. It was always an STF.
I'm talking about the old days, when you assembled a 5-man team and met at a map location in sector space. Back when mk12 purple gear was worth millions... even if it was junk, before fleet holdings, dilithium, and reputation systems were added to the game. Yeah, THAT'S how old Infected is. I don't think it's launch content but pretty close.
Like seriously... do you even know why I keep calling "Manus of Borg" Becky? I'll give you a hint: if you play the entire STO story as it exists in the journal, you will meet Becky outside the Infected TFO.
Of course I remember that. I was there. The Borg quadrant was its own 4 sectors, each of the STFs gave an assimilated set piece for completion, and everyone lamented the gutting of the story when they were cut into pieces, but they were always STFs. Yes, the only STFs that had an actual story until they were cut up, but that doesn't make them story missions any more than Breach would be easier if we could shoot torpedoes into an exhaust port.
I just don't understand what distinction you're trying to make.
That might actually be somewhat interesting, as long as there was no "who cares, you win anyway" timer behind it. Though, making the bits self-heal/respawn would make it more DPS-centric, not less, as it would require players to have enough to overcome said healing.
Not exactly. Due to the enemy HP/resistances being adjusted to account for the fact that the team is split into two, instead of everyone ganging up on one of them at the same time, it would take less DPS to defeat each one. The changes are to make it more about timing then sheer DPS.
The bits already have too little HP/resistance even against a single player. If you reduce them, they will be oneshotted and there goes your strategy requirement. A single player will CSV the whole cluster at once, zip over to the other side repeat mission over, 30 seconds. <yawn>
If they'd have to redo the whole map, they might as well just create an entirely new mission from scratch for the same amount of work.
It's being removed because Cryptic's "standards" don't allow for requiring 3 players to open a door together while standing next to eachother, and you think they'd make peeps do it from across the map?
Again, it wouldn't make it any less "DPS" having 3 lanes. Not that ground is particularly "DPS" to begin with, but whatever.
That Leeta fight in AoTN is horribly stupid and should never be mimicked in anything. It makes her act like a complete moron willingly stepping on the obvious hazard, multiple times. And why does she even have the machine needed to kill her set up in her room in the first place? Lame. That fight needs to be redone, not Manus.
Redoing the maps in their entirety is pretty much what Cryptic has said they want to do with the Borg TFOs and Defera anyways. The point of changing the interior would be to make it actually feel something like the space station its supposed to be, rather then just an endless hallway that connects to nothing and goes nowhere besides a giant pit of plasma that shouldn't exist. In the new version the central hub would have the transporter room/lobby, and each of the three paths would lead to what was the shipyard, the store area, and the commander's office, with the 4th path leading to the main reactor.
Uhh no, its being removed because jumping sections in MMOs are garbage outside of optional jumping puzzles, not because of needing three people to open a door. This also ignores that TFOs like Pahvo Dissension, Pervil over Pahvo, Operation Riposte, and Swarm, are all about having people do multiple things are various points across the map, at the same time, to complete an objective. They are perfectly fine with design like that.
It would make it less DPS based due to the fact that not everyone is moving in a giant team ball, so the average enemy HP/resistance/damage stats would need to be lower to account for less concentrated firepower. Generally speaking, enemies shouldn't have significantly higher stats in TFOs then out of them(why would they its the same enemy either way).
Well the machine doesn't exist to kill her, it exists to do other things, you just make use of it to kill her. You know, like when Data took the plasma gas to burn the Borg Queen. It wasn't there to do that, it was there for another reason entirely, he just happened to make use of it. And yes, the Manus boss fight really needs to be changed. Rebecca just spawns in, and you shoot her, that's it. There is absolutely nothing to the fight itself. The only difference is that she somehow flies magically, but they don't really explain why that is possible, or tie it into the gameplay mechanics by requiring you to do something like turn on energy tethers to bind her to one sport before shooting her.
Why should it connect to anything else but where we're going? We're on a combat mission there, not a sightseeing tour.
Optional things.
In other words, easier. And enemies should have whatever stats as is required to make each content appropriately challenging.
But the borg queen didn't step into the plasma cloud herself like an idiot. Even if Leeta was doing something with that machine whatever it is, she shouldn't just step into it to let players zap her with it, over and over again. That's ridiculous. And why the hell would we need to bind Becky to one spot before shooting her? Guns can shoot flying targets just fine.
All it really needs is higher enemy stats (ie, an Elite version). I'd put a 15-minute timer as a fail condition on it on Advanced/Elite (but leave the "don't let transfos get healed" as an optional because it was a stupid fail condition).
Like the space version, it used to take plenty of teamwork before powercreep (and un-adaptable weapons) made it possible to just bruteforce it. Needs an Elite. And fail conditions. The 15 minute timer would work fine here, too.
I think the last thing it needs is either of these. Anyone can make a game difficult by just artificially buffing enemy stats to absurd degree. That's pretty much "my first video game" design philosophy. That's also crappy design, and universally railed against in gaming for decades because of it. And instant fail timers are just the same. Fallout 1 had an instant fail timer back 20+ years ago, and even back then they patched it out and admitted it was a dumb idea. If the only way you can make something difficult if to just jack up stats and have instant fail timers, you have fundamentally failed at basic game design.
If it would not be so incredible boring an AFK stream of the most popular maps and how they complete on their own without player interaction would be a helpful undertaking for some to see. Then again the path that this is within the realm of very reasonable content for a video game as one still can tend to optionals if if one wants to has as already been laid.
I don't know, add some choice witty commentary and it wouldn't be any more boring than the usual "talking heads" youtube vids.
In all seriousness, "split up" so that you can kill enemies that are weaker because they need to be to allow less players to take them down, is not a good design by any stretch of the imagination.
On normal? Sure thing.
On advanced? Nah. On Elite, for those queue that actually have it? Absolutely not.
I mean, sure. Splitting up can be a required part of team work - like on Dranuur Beach Assault, where you need to cover more than one thing at the same time, (though even in advanced you can loose everything and still bring the reward home) - but it shouldn't be all there is.
You wanna use Assault on Terok Nor as an example? Good God, that's more than alright. But not Leeta. Oh no.
Use the bringing down the field part, where you need one person - and only one, please! - to work out the consoles' order while the rest take care of the enemies (and please, take care of the grenadiers on the second level... it's not THAT hard!), preferibly with a SCI character that can keep people at least moderatly healthy.
Or use Brotherhood of the Sword, where people need to split up for a good reason, so you have at least two that are taking care of disabling the devices, while the others offer cover fire (and click the "central" device that allows to disable the other two).
THAT is team work.
Not splitting up to go in search of "key pieces" that the Borg wouldn't have lying around to begin with because... why? Oh yeah. Hive mind! They would have absolutely no need for something like that.
And again, if the problem in the last room is the jumps you need to make? Then you've got other things to worry about that crying about how the whole thing is just "steamrolling everything because of DPS".
The fact that some seems to think that THAT is really the problem, or that requiring 3 people do deactivate something is bothersome and should be changed is, once again, why the game is in the state it is now: linear, repetitive, time-gated auto-win drivel that could be done by sitting in a corner and just WAIT.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
In all seriousness, "split up" so that you can kill enemies that are weaker because they need to be to allow less players to take them down, is not a good design by any stretch of the imagination.
On normal? Sure thing.
On advanced? Nah. On Elite, for those queue that actually have it? Absolutely not.
I mean, sure. Splitting up can be a required part of team work - like on Dranuur Beach Assault, where you need to cover more than one thing at the same time, (though even in advanced you can loose everything and still bring the reward home) - but it shouldn't be all there is.
You wanna use Assault on Terok Nor as an example? Good God, that's more than alright. But not Leeta. Oh no.
Use the bringing down the field part, where you need one person - and only one, please! - to work out the consoles' order while the rest take care of the enemies (and please, take care of the grenadiers on the second level... it's not THAT hard!), preferibly with a SCI character that can keep people at least moderatly healthy.
Or use Brotherhood of the Sword, where people need to split up for a good reason, so you have at least two that are taking care of disabling the devices, while the others offer cover fire (and click the "central" device that allows to disable the other two).
THAT is team work.
Not splitting up to go in search of "key pieces" that the Borg wouldn't have lying around to begin with because... why? Oh yeah. Hive mind! They would have absolutely no need for something like that.
That's because his design intent is not actual teamwork. It's to make things easier for himself so he doesn't have to "slog" against powerful enemies. The splitting up is his plan to stop the inevitable 1 or 2 competent players evil DPSers in the team from finishing the now-even-easier content to the best of their ability and leaving him behind.
A perfect example of why you don't let players design game content.
and i mean, iga isnt really long. i mean like 8 minutes or so without even trying to speedrun it...
thats from the time equal/shorter than a lot of other timegated missions, like operation riposte as example
If it would not be so incredible boring an AFK stream of the most popular maps and how they complete on their own without player interaction would be a helpful undertaking for some to see. Then again the path that this is within the realm of very reasonable content for a video game as one still can tend to optionals if if one wants to has as already been laid.
@warpangel Exactly! But you know what? If they ever decide to go for something like that, he would still find a way to NOT be happy about it.
@felisean You know, I was actually contemplating the idea of recording a serious run of Pahvo Dissension and an AFK one, to show that *GASP* the reward at the end are exactly the same except for the marks. But I'm sure someone would just report me for it, so nah.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
@somtaawkhar the problem is always, that you need hp corresponding to the possible amount of damage the players could do, otherwise you just skip all the mechanics.
=> since our dps is so high due to powercreep over the years enemies on advanced 5 player queues would need at least 3x the hp they have now to be competitive. for elite it would be like x10 or so to actually see those mechanics.
for infected:manus advnaced as example, becky just dies in < 3 seconds with 2-3 people knowing what to do on ground
If you actually want to make a boss harder you design mechanics that don't take sheer DPS to overcome.
How about a jumping puzzle that requires 3 players in a team to lower a forcefield?
How DARE you suggest that?! People learning how to JUMP? People working together to achieve a commong goal?!
Shame on you, Peter!
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
“Even when devs do throw those people a bone, they do so in a way that actually benefits everyone. You want to make a boss harder? Jacking up HP values is awful.”
It doesn’t have to be if done correctly. I have played just about every major space game and the number 1 top space game from a tactical combat point of view for me was Nexus the Jupiter Incident. It did that via high HP pools but relatively speaking low weapon damage and low healing. Due to that combat was not only slower pace and more drawn out which was a good thing, but in turn it meant actual decisions on what the player did mattered. For example, do you target engine subsystems, shields or weapon systems. Do you go for subsystem hull or focuses on bringing your own systems back online. Repairing subsystem didn’t repair HP. It’s a balancing act to get the combat length just right and not to long.
Clearly you cannot just adjust HP alone as the relationship to damage and HP repair matter. But buffing HP can make a positive difference if done correctly as a full balance pass.
“The problem of enemies being too weak to high DPSers isn't evidence for raising enemy values, its evidence for lowering player ones.”
The problem with that is player outrage when something is taken away or perceive to be taken away tends to be massively worse then when you adjust enemies to be less weak. It doesn’t matter if the outcome is the same, taking something away is seen as worse.
“Also, the whole point of moving the transformers farther from the main gate would be to prevent that.”
Creating artificial travel time can lead to extra tedium which is bad level design. It’s the same reason people hate time gates as its an artificial space to make the player do nothing just to extend the time it takes to do the mission. I am not at my best today being ill but unless I am remembering wrong didn't you argue not long back Sentinels was one of the worse patrols due to the long travel time between areas? You said the other patrols are better as it didn't have the long travel gaps.
“Whereas in the newer Doom and Tomb Raider, the levels actually make sense, and you can see where things were and how they were supposed to function. The newer games are significantly better designed for it.”
Personally I found that a terrible example. I just finished Doom 2016 last week and I came out of it thinking it is below average with my main problem being level design being significantly worse them Doom 3 or even Doom 1.
Though I do agree if you are going to design a location you should follow that locations logical rules. Like a ship with disabled engines and no power should follow the location and rules not fly around at massive speeds faster then a top end ship.
and i mean, iga isnt really long. i mean like 8 minutes or so without even trying to speedrun it...
thats from the time equal/shorter than a lot of other timegated missions, like operation riposte as example
If it would not be so incredible boring an AFK stream of the most popular maps and how they complete on their own without player interaction would be a helpful undertaking for some to see. Then again the path that this is within the realm of very reasonable content for a video game as one still can tend to optionals if if one wants to has as already been laid.
maybe we should do that
Sounds tough but of course I'm in captain.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
@somtaawkhar the problem is always, that you need hp corresponding to the possible amount of damage the players could do, otherwise you just skip all the mechanics.
=> since our dps is so high due to powercreep over the years enemies on advanced 5 player queues would need at least 3x the hp they have now to be competitive. for elite it would be like x10 or so to actually see those mechanics.
for infected:manus advnaced as example, becky just dies in < 3 seconds with 2-3 people knowing what to do on ground
This is the same argument people have been trying to use in MMOs for years, and its never worked. No developer designs games for the DPSers, because the vast majority of players in most games don't chase DPS. It isn't(and shouldn't really be) the determining factor of gameplay in general.
Of course not. Most games require far more than just DPS. DPS alone will get teams wiped at the first sight of a boss battle in actually challenging games. It might not even get them TO the boss battle. It's only STO with its Perpetual Easy Mode that DPS alone is successful. Because the enemies are helpless HP sacks waitting for someone to kill them you don't need defense or support.
But developers do design games for players who can and want to play them. Auto-winning rewards dispensers and challengeless turkey shoots belong in newbie tutorials, not the endgame.
Even when devs do throw those people a bone, they do so in a way that actually benefits everyone. You want to make a boss harder? Jacking up HP values is awful. If you actually want to make a boss harder you design mechanics that don't take sheer DPS to overcome. You have a flying boss? Give them an energy shield that blocks all attacks, and can only be taken down by activating energy tethers that bind them, and breaks their shield. Have each energy tether require charging so a player has to stand there and guard it. And then make it to where every 30% HP you bring the boss down causes the cycle to repeat. That's making a boss complex. Jacking up HP values is just tedium. It doesn't change the fact you can just sit there with auto fire on, and win while doing nothing. All it does is increase the length of how long you have to stand there with autofire on. Games like Crash Bandicoot have been doing this since the mid 90's, and are loved for it.
Yeah, and you know what the challenge is Crash Bandicoot? The enemy can kill you and then you lose the fight. That doesn't work in STO, either.
Without the chance to lose, NOTHING is challenging.
If you want to talk about STO specifically, yes, there is a problem with high DPS making things too easy with those that have it. But that isn't a problem with enemy values being too low, that's a problem with game balancing on the player side. Upping enemy values isn't the fix to the problem, because low enemy values aren't the source of the problem. The source of the problem is the lack of consistent balance patches like most MMOs get to fix exploits that people use to get their DPS up that high in the first place. The S13? 14? balance patch STO got was a godsend for awhile. I recall people on Reddit talking about how it took their 500K DPS boat to less then 200K. That was a good start, but we need one of those again to undo the DPS creep since then, and then another one to get max DPS values around 100k at max. And then we need to get balance patches at least every 3-4 months to ensure it stays around that level.
It's only natural for players to grow more powerful over time. What's the point of playing if there's nothing to gain and nowhere to go?
If players are too powerful for the content, that means content hasn't been keeping up. "Balance patches" are garbage.
If you have a bump in the floor in regards to the balance between player DPS and enemy values, you don't raise the entire floor to the level of the bump, you just fix the bump. Simply rising the floor as you suggest leads to the same problem JRPGs, and Japanese card games like Yu-Gi-Oh have. Constant power creep, and a lack of rebalancing, has led to explosive number growth to where now everything is in the values of like 999999999999999, and the games just start to break down mechanically because of it. On the other hand, most western games still use values in the hundreds, Magic the Gathering uses values in just the double digits. The problem of enemies being too weak to high DPSers isn't evidence for raising enemy values, its evidence for lowering player ones.
Content is not supposed to be flat. Flat is boring. Flat is lowest-common-denominator. Flat has no room for progress. There shouldn't be bumps in the difficulty curve, there should be mountains. The peaks should reach ever so high that even the best of the best have to try their hardest to reach them. And every time they get surpassed (and they should be surpassed), higher ones added.
“Ugh.... I would rather play Homeworld. Now Homeworld was a space game with tactics, and, again, enemy HP values weren't all that high. The difficulty came from having to get the right combination of ships, in the right formations, and move them around enemy formations by either flanking them, or attacking from above or below(since the game had full 3d movement in space). It was tactics not just "sit there and wail on an enemy for 20 minutes because we made the weapons do so little damage"
Homeworld and Nexus the Jupiter Incident cannot really be compared. Homeworld was more an RTS then controlling an in-depth space battle between ships. Don’t get me wrong Homeworld was tactical and a good game but in a different way. Like you say it was more about having the right fleet formation in the right spot then what actions individual ships did.
Nexus the Jupiter Incident goes into another level. You have all the same tactics of correct fleet formation in the right spot but it goes far more in depth into what each individual ship does. It wasn’t just a 20min wail on the enemy because weapons did so little damage it was about player choice and individual ship actions which matter more then Homeworld ships, which in turn meant space combat was massively more tactical. Range and speed where also major factors so was picking careful power levels and subsystems to repair.
I know best is subjective but I am not aware of any other game with better ship v ship tactical fights where player choice and actions matter. It wouldn’t be easy to translate over to STO but I believe that’s the type of combat system or at least elements of it would represent fights in Star Trek really well.
If you haven’t played Nexus the Jupiter Incident give it a go. Like I said above the UI isn’t the best and can be a little overwhelming at first but once you get use to it the ship to ship combat is top notch and tactical.
This might sound off topic but what I am trying to say is that type of system and gameplay mechanics in Nexus to me is what makes good challenging gameplay combat. The good design elements of Nexus could even translate over to Star Trek ground. Saying that the thing about combat is it’s a fine balancing act with no true correct answer as its subjective player to player.
I was going to respond to your other points but that’s going to far off topic.
@somtaawkhar
in all other mmos you have some kind of dps requirement for higher level difficulty content. the highest difficulty is usualy balanced for the top end.
but those are always encounters for several persons, usualy the mid section (advanced for sto) cant be done by 1 person alone. in sto, the dmg output cryptic sold us is so extreme that cleaning the floor with the enemies is super easy and done by basically activating like 3 abilities.
we've streamed the borg ground queues lately here (talking language is german):
and i guess even you could agree that killing becky in iga in like 3 seconds from "is attackable => dead" is a little bit too extreme.
and that count for literaly ALL ground queues. i really wish it would be different, but its just a fact of how the game is right now. and thats something that make me sad that there is basically not much to do when you got your gear together beside space barbie, dps hunt and dil grind.
At any rate the point behind bringing this up is that Gozer planned for only premade teams to be ABLE to do it. No PUGs, especially not people who don't even know if they're getting a Borg TFO as their random roll of the dice.
Again!
It not only worked in 2012 pugs where I learned how to play it, IGA got a lot whole easier due to power creep and lack of elite mode since then, got supported with special gear (Snipe, Shotgun, Tommy, new melee stuff) and remains in the explanation of the tutorial and related Borg arc player do bevor reaching endgame.
The only reason to remove IGA now is to fully acknowledge that the player-base right along with you and our community manager did not get better over the years but a lot worse at playing STO.
"It was fine in 2012"? You mean back when people didn't play it except for the tech drops? How many of those were full PUGs? Probably not many. Definitely not people who weren't intentionally queuing IGA. Which is... exactly the way it is now. If people want to queue IGA they can. It's just that only people who want to play it will.
and i guess even you could agree that killing becky in iga in like 3 seconds from "is attackable => dead" is a little bit too extreme.
and that count for literaly ALL ground queues. i really wish it would be different, but its just a fact of how the game is right now. and thats something that make me sad that there is basically not much to do when you got your gear together beside space barbie, dps hunt and dil grind.
OK, but... what percentage of the player base can do that? The devs aren't going to make random queues require a top-tier ground build.
"It was fine in 2012"? You mean back when people didn't play it except for the tech drops? How many of those were full PUGs? Probably not many. Definitely not people who weren't intentionally queuing IGA. Which is... exactly the way it is now.
Wrong!
Pre Delta Rising Borg STF including IGA was the only thing my entire friendliest and I played PvE wise. We played it over and over again! We played it day in day out, in pugs, with my fleet, as a mix of those and in channels. The only thing that made me stop was a shot at NWS with some good players. You know the well-designed map not the stupid version they re-released and we now get as Forrest Gump event.
Back in 2012 I had zero trouble to find players to do IGA with me. Not in my fleets, not in channels and most certainly not in form of pugs.
If people want to queue IGA they can. It's just that only people who want to play it will.
Wrong again!
We cannot play IGA now if we want to. Elite teams in channels don’t play it because it does not have an elite mode and its too easy, my fleet mates do not play it because there are much easier ways to earn Dil nowadays and pugs don’t queue up for it because they have become too bad at it to handle. RTFO was the only way left. Now thanks to players like you and Kael it’s no more.
STO just became a bit better to handle for you at the cost of getting a bit more boring for me. You’re welcome but please don't fool yourself into thinking that alls fine for anybody besides you.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
OK, but... what percentage of the player base can do that? The devs aren't going to make random queues require a top-tier ground build.
Are you serious? My god.. how bad at ground combat are you?
Look, I normally won't start poking fun at people's skill level.. but come on. A top tier DPS team takes him down in 3 seconds, an average pug team takes what? 10 seconds? maybe 12?
It's really getting stupid now how you keep pointing out easy content and trying to make it sound hard. First it was calling walking from one platform to another with an occasional jump a 'Jump Puzzle' now you're insisting that Manus takes a 'top tier' build?
Look man.. in all seriousness.. you need help with your ground build, it's just that simple. If you want, make a thread on it and I'm sure you can get plenty of help improving it, but you can't blame the map for that.
As for 'what percentage of the player base' can pull off killing him.. my honest guess (because I don't have any actual data) is probably 90-95%. His attack is pathetic so even if it takes you a full minute he's going to be more boring then challenging.
It's not 2012 anymore my friend.. the Manus fight is a cake walk, even for your average team.
Comments
Yea pushing the drones into the plasma one by one, platform by platform was like the best way to deal with them in a time where a single agony field could not kill every Borg in the room at once.
Hard to imagine it in a day an age where players bring in the reasoning that it is unfair to set up a random group on a map without knowing which enemies they face.
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There are pretty much only 2 players arguing in favor of this change and it's obvious from their posts that neither one of them even plays this queue or understands it. You're arguing using facts as someone that actually knows the content against people that are effectively arguing because the queue is too much for them personally and they refuse to adapt.
At the end of the day, the message is clear. If a queue takes any type of adaptation on the part of the player.. even something as simple as having an 'anti borg' weapon in your inventory or asking someone to press the space bar to move from one large platform to another.. it's too hard.
If it's not too hard.. you're an Elitist.
thats from the time equal/shorter than a lot of other timegated missions, like operation riposte as example
ingame: @Felisean
The only reason DPS doesn’t matter is because Pahvo Dissension is one of those auto win missions where you cannot fail even if the entire team sit AFK though 95% of it, you still complete it. But saying that you are still wrong because the objectives are tied to DPS which impact the amount of time it takes by a noticeable amount.
If DPS has zero impact then explain to me how a high DPS groups can purify the crystals 33% faster if not half the time of a low DPS group? I have been in groups on Elite that have purify 100% of crystals faster then low DPS groups have on advanced. That is anything but zero impact.
Assuming the entire team are competent Pahvo Dissension is effectively just a big DPS slog where the only thing that matters is DPS and how long it takes to kill things.
If it would not be so incredible boring an AFK stream of the most popular maps and how they complete on their own without player interaction would be a helpful undertaking for some to see. Then again the path that this is within the realm of very reasonable content for a video game as one still can tend to optionals if if one wants to has as already been laid.
Like usual you have presented your arguments well here Pottsey. Problem just seems to be that the other side not only does not understand what you are talking about but it does not even want to understand it to begin with.
The only thing that could change its mind would be a Cryptic dev hinting that Borg content has some interesting aspects to it that other maps lack so it could be ruminated here in forums.
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thats not the dps itself, thats the players focusing on placing the crystals and than holding back the infinite respawn till its purified.
usualy high dps players are more focused on such things than others. i mean i could just purify those crystals by setting up by starting with a security escort call and an echo papa, place the crystals and than place more crystal prisms to hold the line without even shooting myself at the enemies.
so there is a relation but its not the dps itself, just the general understanding of game mechanics
ingame: @Felisean
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I remember that people often tended to switch to pulse wave weapons for the final room simply because those had a push back effect which was quite useful against the Borg.
Mines and Transphasic bombs (both shield pen and push back). IGA was/is quite manageable.
That said, i often encounter teams which seem to have no clue whatsoever and don't watch the team chat.
Of course I remember that. I was there. The Borg quadrant was its own 4 sectors, each of the STFs gave an assimilated set piece for completion, and everyone lamented the gutting of the story when they were cut into pieces, but they were always STFs. Yes, the only STFs that had an actual story until they were cut up, but that doesn't make them story missions any more than Breach would be easier if we could shoot torpedoes into an exhaust port.
I just don't understand what distinction you're trying to make.
- Why should it connect to anything else but where we're going? We're on a combat mission there, not a sightseeing tour.
- Optional things.
- In other words, easier. And enemies should have whatever stats as is required to make each content appropriately challenging.
- But the borg queen didn't step into the plasma cloud herself like an idiot. Even if Leeta was doing something with that machine whatever it is, she shouldn't just step into it to let players zap her with it, over and over again. That's ridiculous. And why the hell would we need to bind Becky to one spot before shooting her? Guns can shoot flying targets just fine.
Perpetual Easy Mode is crappy design.In all seriousness, "split up" so that you can kill enemies that are weaker because they need to be to allow less players to take them down, is not a good design by any stretch of the imagination.
On normal? Sure thing.
On advanced? Nah. On Elite, for those queue that actually have it? Absolutely not.
I mean, sure. Splitting up can be a required part of team work - like on Dranuur Beach Assault, where you need to cover more than one thing at the same time, (though even in advanced you can loose everything and still bring the reward home) - but it shouldn't be all there is.
You wanna use Assault on Terok Nor as an example? Good God, that's more than alright. But not Leeta. Oh no.
Use the bringing down the field part, where you need one person - and only one, please! - to work out the consoles' order while the rest take care of the enemies (and please, take care of the grenadiers on the second level... it's not THAT hard!), preferibly with a SCI character that can keep people at least moderatly healthy.
Or use Brotherhood of the Sword, where people need to split up for a good reason, so you have at least two that are taking care of disabling the devices, while the others offer cover fire (and click the "central" device that allows to disable the other two).
THAT is team work.
Not splitting up to go in search of "key pieces" that the Borg wouldn't have lying around to begin with because... why? Oh yeah. Hive mind! They would have absolutely no need for something like that.
And again, if the problem in the last room is the jumps you need to make? Then you've got other things to worry about that crying about how the whole thing is just "steamrolling everything because of DPS".
The fact that some seems to think that THAT is really the problem, or that requiring 3 people do deactivate something is bothersome and should be changed is, once again, why the game is in the state it is now: linear, repetitive, time-gated auto-win drivel that could be done by sitting in a corner and just WAIT.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
A perfect example of why you don't let players design game content.
maybe we should do that
ingame: @Felisean
@felisean You know, I was actually contemplating the idea of recording a serious run of Pahvo Dissension and an AFK one, to show that *GASP* the reward at the end are exactly the same except for the marks. But I'm sure someone would just report me for it, so nah.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
=> since our dps is so high due to powercreep over the years enemies on advanced 5 player queues would need at least 3x the hp they have now to be competitive. for elite it would be like x10 or so to actually see those mechanics.
for infected:manus advnaced as example, becky just dies in < 3 seconds with 2-3 people knowing what to do on ground
ingame: @Felisean
How about a jumping puzzle that requires 3 players in a team to lower a forcefield?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
How DARE you suggest that?! People learning how to JUMP? People working together to achieve a commong goal?!
Shame on you, Peter!
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Clearly you cannot just adjust HP alone as the relationship to damage and HP repair matter. But buffing HP can make a positive difference if done correctly as a full balance pass.
The problem with that is player outrage when something is taken away or perceive to be taken away tends to be massively worse then when you adjust enemies to be less weak. It doesn’t matter if the outcome is the same, taking something away is seen as worse.
Creating artificial travel time can lead to extra tedium which is bad level design. It’s the same reason people hate time gates as its an artificial space to make the player do nothing just to extend the time it takes to do the mission. I am not at my best today being ill but unless I am remembering wrong didn't you argue not long back Sentinels was one of the worse patrols due to the long travel time between areas? You said the other patrols are better as it didn't have the long travel gaps.
Personally I found that a terrible example. I just finished Doom 2016 last week and I came out of it thinking it is below average with my main problem being level design being significantly worse them Doom 3 or even Doom 1.
Though I do agree if you are going to design a location you should follow that locations logical rules. Like a ship with disabled engines and no power should follow the location and rules not fly around at massive speeds faster then a top end ship.
Sounds tough but of course I'm in captain.
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But developers do design games for players who can and want to play them. Auto-winning rewards dispensers and challengeless turkey shoots belong in newbie tutorials, not the endgame.
Yeah, and you know what the challenge is Crash Bandicoot? The enemy can kill you and then you lose the fight. That doesn't work in STO, either.
Without the chance to lose, NOTHING is challenging.
It's only natural for players to grow more powerful over time. What's the point of playing if there's nothing to gain and nowhere to go?
If players are too powerful for the content, that means content hasn't been keeping up. "Balance patches" are garbage.
Content is not supposed to be flat. Flat is boring. Flat is lowest-common-denominator. Flat has no room for progress. There shouldn't be bumps in the difficulty curve, there should be mountains. The peaks should reach ever so high that even the best of the best have to try their hardest to reach them. And every time they get surpassed (and they should be surpassed), higher ones added.
Nexus the Jupiter Incident goes into another level. You have all the same tactics of correct fleet formation in the right spot but it goes far more in depth into what each individual ship does. It wasn’t just a 20min wail on the enemy because weapons did so little damage it was about player choice and individual ship actions which matter more then Homeworld ships, which in turn meant space combat was massively more tactical. Range and speed where also major factors so was picking careful power levels and subsystems to repair.
I know best is subjective but I am not aware of any other game with better ship v ship tactical fights where player choice and actions matter. It wouldn’t be easy to translate over to STO but I believe that’s the type of combat system or at least elements of it would represent fights in Star Trek really well.
If you haven’t played Nexus the Jupiter Incident give it a go. Like I said above the UI isn’t the best and can be a little overwhelming at first but once you get use to it the ship to ship combat is top notch and tactical.
This might sound off topic but what I am trying to say is that type of system and gameplay mechanics in Nexus to me is what makes good challenging gameplay combat. The good design elements of Nexus could even translate over to Star Trek ground. Saying that the thing about combat is it’s a fine balancing act with no true correct answer as its subjective player to player.
I was going to respond to your other points but that’s going to far off topic.
in all other mmos you have some kind of dps requirement for higher level difficulty content. the highest difficulty is usualy balanced for the top end.
but those are always encounters for several persons, usualy the mid section (advanced for sto) cant be done by 1 person alone. in sto, the dmg output cryptic sold us is so extreme that cleaning the floor with the enemies is super easy and done by basically activating like 3 abilities.
we've streamed the borg ground queues lately here (talking language is german):
and i guess even you could agree that killing becky in iga in like 3 seconds from "is attackable => dead" is a little bit too extreme.
and that count for literaly ALL ground queues. i really wish it would be different, but its just a fact of how the game is right now. and thats something that make me sad that there is basically not much to do when you got your gear together beside space barbie, dps hunt and dil grind.
ingame: @Felisean
My character Tsin'xing
Pre Delta Rising Borg STF including IGA was the only thing my entire friendliest and I played PvE wise. We played it over and over again! We played it day in day out, in pugs, with my fleet, as a mix of those and in channels. The only thing that made me stop was a shot at NWS with some good players. You know the well-designed map not the stupid version they re-released and we now get as Forrest Gump event.
Back in 2012 I had zero trouble to find players to do IGA with me. Not in my fleets, not in channels and most certainly not in form of pugs.
Wrong again!
We cannot play IGA now if we want to. Elite teams in channels don’t play it because it does not have an elite mode and its too easy, my fleet mates do not play it because there are much easier ways to earn Dil nowadays and pugs don’t queue up for it because they have become too bad at it to handle. RTFO was the only way left. Now thanks to players like you and Kael it’s no more.
STO just became a bit better to handle for you at the cost of getting a bit more boring for me. You’re welcome but please don't fool yourself into thinking that alls fine for anybody besides you.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Are you serious? My god.. how bad at ground combat are you?
Look, I normally won't start poking fun at people's skill level.. but come on. A top tier DPS team takes him down in 3 seconds, an average pug team takes what? 10 seconds? maybe 12?
It's really getting stupid now how you keep pointing out easy content and trying to make it sound hard. First it was calling walking from one platform to another with an occasional jump a 'Jump Puzzle' now you're insisting that Manus takes a 'top tier' build?
Look man.. in all seriousness.. you need help with your ground build, it's just that simple. If you want, make a thread on it and I'm sure you can get plenty of help improving it, but you can't blame the map for that.
As for 'what percentage of the player base' can pull off killing him.. my honest guess (because I don't have any actual data) is probably 90-95%. His attack is pathetic so even if it takes you a full minute he's going to be more boring then challenging.
It's not 2012 anymore my friend.. the Manus fight is a cake walk, even for your average team.