True but in this case Rodd, Gene's son, has confirmed that a major part of why Gene was so mad about TWOK was that it made the "Andromeda" idea impossible within Trek because Meyer killed off Khan, and Tyr's people (Neitzians) were supposed to be Khan's descendants.
Dunno, but with a bit of creative writing, there would still have been ways to make Tyr's People work after TWoK.
If they work with DNA-samples like the Neitzians in Andromeda did, there'd still be genetic material on the Botany Bay-wreckage.
Yeah, Khan's fellows were all on the Reliant, eventually.. but it's not too big of a stretch that there might have been other sleeper-ships. Perhaps some unlucky merchant found one, woke the crew and they go after traces that lead to the wreckage of Botany Bay.
They would sure find and secure usable genetic material of Khan and friends, and then they start their little civilization of genetically-engineered clans.
Or even more crazy... but also more of a stretch, the Genesis-effect could have created a new Khan. He wouldn't have had the memories of the real one, Kirk and crew could have recovered him like the revived Spock and while on Vulcan, he might have left due to not fitting in and starting to feel inherently superior to everybody else. Creating a new people from retorts.
They didn't even try IMO.
The question is why. Who and why would use DNA from a dead race to create an interstellar empire? Why would someone with the resources to do so feel the need to do so?
True but in this case Rodd, Gene's son, has confirmed that a major part of why Gene was so mad about TWOK was that it made the "Andromeda" idea impossible within Trek because Meyer killed off Khan, and Tyr's people (Neitzians) were supposed to be Khan's descendants.
Dunno, but with a bit of creative writing, there would still have been ways to make Tyr's People work after TWoK.
If they work with DNA-samples like the Neitzians in Andromeda did, there'd still be genetic material on the Botany Bay-wreckage.
Yeah, Khan's fellows were all on the Reliant, eventually.. but it's not too big of a stretch that there might have been other sleeper-ships. Perhaps some unlucky merchant found one, woke the crew and they go after traces that lead to the wreckage of Botany Bay.
They would sure find and secure usable genetic material of Khan and friends, and then they start their little civilization of genetically-engineered clans.
Or even more crazy... but also more of a stretch, the Genesis-effect could have created a new Khan. He wouldn't have had the memories of the real one, Kirk and crew could have recovered him like the revived Spock and while on Vulcan, he might have left due to not fitting in and starting to feel inherently superior to everybody else. Creating a new people from retorts.
They didn't even try IMO.
The question is why. Who and why would use DNA from a dead race to create an interstellar empire? Why would someone with the resources to do so feel the need to do so?
Well, other sleepers are a stretch (though could work as a throwaway-explanation), but the federation banned genetic engineering and some rogue scientist uncovering the Botany Bay would actually be an interesting setup.
Also... Tyr's People would not actually NEED to be based on Khan. Look at the Clans from the Battletech-setting. The original Khans (title, not name) were participants of a large exodus that happened after their ideal of a united humanity failed. Their descendants eventually started a culture not unlike the Tyr's People concept. And over time those clanners developed the exact same mannerisms any genetically-engineered superhuman seems to have.
True but in this case Rodd, Gene's son, has confirmed that a major part of why Gene was so mad about TWOK was that it made the "Andromeda" idea impossible within Trek because Meyer killed off Khan, and Tyr's people (Neitzians) were supposed to be Khan's descendants.
Dunno, but with a bit of creative writing, there would still have been ways to make Tyr's People work after TWoK.
If they work with DNA-samples like the Neitzians in Andromeda did, there'd still be genetic material on the Botany Bay-wreckage.
Yeah, Khan's fellows were all on the Reliant, eventually.. but it's not too big of a stretch that there might have been other sleeper-ships. Heck, even Picard found terran sleepers in 'The Neutral Zone', and they were from even before Khan's time.
Some other "superhumans" would sure have been awoken somewhere, leaving them open to search for and secure usable genetic material of Khan and friends, and then they start their little civilization of genetically-engineered clans.
Or even more crazy... but also more of a stretch, the Genesis-effect could have created a new Khan. He wouldn't have had the memories of the real one, Kirk and crew could have recovered him like the revived Spock and while on Vulcan, he might have left due to not fitting in and starting to feel inherently superior to everybody else. Creating a new people from retorts.
They didn't even try IMO.
If I remember correctly, there was a Star Trek novel that had a human colony where they had genetically engineered castes. The workers would be genetically engineered with increased strength and stamina while the intellectuals would be genetically engineered with increased intelligence. The other instance of genetically engineered human colonies that I can remember in novels is one that created an augment virus that made the entire colony into augments. If I remember correctly, both novels were before Enterprise aired.
True but in this case Rodd, Gene's son, has confirmed that a major part of why Gene was so mad about TWOK was that it made the "Andromeda" idea impossible within Trek because Meyer killed off Khan, and Tyr's people (Neitzians) were supposed to be Khan's descendants.
Dunno, but with a bit of creative writing, there would still have been ways to make Tyr's People work after TWoK.
If they work with DNA-samples like the Neitzians in Andromeda did, there'd still be genetic material on the Botany Bay-wreckage.
Yeah, Khan's fellows were all on the Reliant, eventually.. but it's not too big of a stretch that there might have been other sleeper-ships. Perhaps some unlucky merchant found one, woke the crew and they go after traces that lead to the wreckage of Botany Bay.
They would sure find and secure usable genetic material of Khan and friends, and then they start their little civilization of genetically-engineered clans.
Or even more crazy... but also more of a stretch, the Genesis-effect could have created a new Khan. He wouldn't have had the memories of the real one, Kirk and crew could have recovered him like the revived Spock and while on Vulcan, he might have left due to not fitting in and starting to feel inherently superior to everybody else. Creating a new people from retorts.
They didn't even try IMO.
The question is why. Who and why would use DNA from a dead race to create an interstellar empire? Why would someone with the resources to do so feel the need to do so?
Well, other sleepers are a stretch (though could work as a throwaway-explanation), but the federation banned genetic engineering and some rogue scientist uncovering the Botany Bay would actually be an interesting setup.
Also... Tyr's People would not actually NEED to be based on Khan. Look at the Clans from the Battletech-setting. The original Khans (title, not name) were participants of a large exodus that happened after their ideal of a united humanity failed. Their descendants eventually started a culture not unlike the Tyr's People concept. And over time those clanners developed the exact same mannerisms any genetically-engineered superhuman seems to have.
One interesting wrinkle is that the Federation didn't ban research into genetic "medicine". It's how Crusher created the Barclay Protomorphosis syndrome... Also one of the season 2 TNG eps involved a colony of what were essentially augments created as part of an extravagant experiment into creating perfect Humans. So the idea that a rogue group in the Federation would try to make friendly Augments works.... it kinda happened already.
If I remember correctly, there was a Star Trek novel that had a human colony where they had genetically engineered castes. The workers would be genetically engineered with increased strength and stamina while the intellectuals would be genetically engineered with increased intelligence. The other instance of genetically engineered human colonies that I can remember in novels is one that created an augment virus that made the entire colony into augments. If I remember correctly, both novels were before Enterprise aired.
I remember one with people who were as smart and strong as androids. They were basically hiding from the Federation because they were afraid the Feds would exterminate them for being augments. But one of them decided she wanted to leave her planet and pretended to be Human to join Starfleet.
> @markhawkman said:
> (Quote)
> One interesting wrinkle is that the Federation didn't ban research into genetic "medicine". It's how Crusher created the Barclay Protomorphosis syndrome... Also one of the season 2 TNG eps involved a colony of what were essentially augments created as part of an extravagant experiment into creating perfect Humans. So the idea that a rogue group in the Federation would try to make friendly Augments works.... it kinda happened already.(Quote)
> I remember one with people who were as smart and strong as androids. They were basically hiding from the Federation because they were afraid the Feds would exterminate them for being augments. But one of them decided she wanted to leave her planet and pretended to be Human to join Starfleet.
1. Dr. Arik Soong, 22nd Century, stole frozen Eugenics Wars embryos, they later nearly caused an interstellar war, partially caused a century of Klingon interhouse warfare that only ended when Chancellor L'Rell took power, and attempted to genocide Earth.
2. TNG season 2 had a rogue science team create a group of Aygment children through an entirely different process. Their immune system was so strong their antibodies became airborn and caused extreme aging in other people.
3. Criminal scientists in the Federation still utilize the 21st century Augmentation procedure, the recipients are frequently left with severe personality disorders. Rarely a success emerges like Julien Bashir, and his arrogance left millions of people all over the world wanting to beat the hell out of him after his first words to Major Kira.
So in my opinion, only Khan had the will to keep his people from slaughtering each other long enough to create a code of conduct for them to follow and formalize their darwinian struggle enough to allpw the Neitzian society to emerge.
1: Yeah but he only had a few, and they mostly killed each other.
2: Well that was actually intentional... insane but intentional. the lady who engineered them actually wanted them to purge diseases from their environment. Except they saw non-self as disease.
3: Yeah but those guys try to hide it, and don't try to create an empire... probably in large part because their work is bad, and usually defective.
As Rattler said, the hook has to be believable. Khan and his people, quite plainly, failed, both on Earth and later aboard the Reliant. Nietzscheans would never have allowed them to breed, and might have just exterminated them, for the crime of being defeated by mere baselines. They certainly wouldn't want to use the DNA of such a group as a basis for a future society based on the principles of the Nietzscheans.
As for that novel with genetically-engineered castes, I think I liked it better when it was written by Aldous Huxley and titled Brave New World.
Not much of a fan of crossovers. Primarily because there are far too many of them. I find crossovers to be wishful thinking. In an MMO, which is where the OP was probably headed with this, specifically STO, people perceive an advantage of some sort from having Char X from Show Y in Game Z. And when Char X turns into every other character already ingame, except for costuming, people complain about how, "the Devs nerfed Char X so hard it isn't worth playing." While conveniently ignoring the fact if the Devs of the game had put Char X into the game as it is depicted in its home universe, it would be godlike and remove everything else from the game in question.
Leave both those series where they are right now. On the trash heap. The first season of each is very good and I enjoyed them. Everything after that needs to be put in a dark room forever. We've enough 'crossover' stuff in STO already. Without adding things and people from outside Star Trek.
tl;dr version: All crossovers are TRIBBLE. The only reason someone would want a crossover here is to acquire some sort of game breaking advantage which only they can see and use.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
My brother and I concluded that Tyr wins that fight because Worf and Ronon have honor, Tyr doesn't.
I think the guy Ronon tricks Teyla into getting him a meeting with so he can kill him would disagree with you. So would Teyla for that matter.
And as Worf himself said, "There is nothing more honorable than victory." Aside from preferring armed force to financial trickery, Klingons don't much care how you won; otherwise I daresay they'd consider the use of cloaking devices to be dishonorable, and they use them all the time.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I didn't say it was hard to contrive a scenario for two unlike fiction universes to collide.
I said it was hard to do it and not have the result come out looking like bad fan fiction.
As a fanfic writer myself, who kinda specializes in crossovers, I have to agree with this.
You CAN cross things over easily. BUT... the key to a GOOD one is HOW they are tied together. Good stories do it in such a way as to be believable. Bad ones just mash them together with no real explanation and expect them to work.
Example of a rather bad one: a Star Trek TNG/Sailor Moon story I stumbled across where Q was Serena's uncle or something. Chaos ensued and Q actually dropped her off on the Enterprise-D for protection.
Was a serious mess that just didn't make sense. No real explanation or set up. Just mashed potatos.
Example of a decent one (my opinion): a BSG/Trek crossover where Lt. Geata was actually a Starfleet Officer who went MIA as an Ensign, and joined Colonial Fleet. Later would use his knowledge of territorial borders to try and quietly steer Galactica and the fleet away from hostile powers like the Romulans until coming into contact with Starfleet.
The author actually took the time to build a believable hook that tied the two together in a way that made sense, even though the tech was not compatible.
Some things make crossovers easier, like Stargate. If you have the other half not be space faring or anything, you got at least two galaxies worth of Stargates you can put their world in. So you could have a full on Stargate/My Little Pony crossover because hey... they COULD have a stargate on their world, either in some distant corner of the Milky Way or Pegasus Galaxy, and they haven't found it yet. Other things, like the franchises mentioned upthread like Andromeda and Earth: Final Conflict, are a bit harder to do so. On the Andromeda side, their reliance on Slipstream that is totally different from any FTL method in Trek would mean that any Andromeda based ships sent to the Trek side would be basically stranded, ala season 5 of Andromeda. Any Trek ships sent to Andromeda would still be able to get around, but as Andromeda actually has three galaxies... the Trek ship isn't going far in any amount of time.
In short anything Trek/Andromeda would have to work around the fact that they won't be able to go anywhere in a reasonable amount of time, if at all. So theoretically you could set up some kind of scenario where a rift between them has opened and the crews have to work together to seal it before it destroys the multiverse or something like that. But don't expect Andromeda to pop out in say, the Azure Nebula, and have the Enterprise escort her back to Earth.
As I said, the key to a good crossover is HOW you tie them together. The hook has to be believable.
In my opinion the spontaneous portal between universes that inexplicably appears in exactly the right time and place for PLOT! to happen is one of the most contrived cliches of crossover fiction ever. Bonus stupid points for having the portal wait just long enough to magically suck in the Ship of Plot Significance and then disappear without a trace so they can't go back.
In comparison having the Andromeda pop in the Azure Nebula, maybe because of some slipstream accident, would actually be much more plausible.
@starswordc
See you thought I meant some specific code of conduct when I said honor. I just meant that Worf and Ronon have lines they won't cross, Tyr doesn't, he would shoot through his own son to kill an enemy.
Isn't having lines that they won't cross, a specific code of conduct? Also, winning at any cost is a specific code of conduct as well. Even if it is extremely disgusting by our moral values.
Tyr betrayed his pregnant wife to be on the winning side. Neither Worf nor Ronon would do something like that. Ronon killed that guy as an act of revenge in service to his personal honor, that guy betrayed their planet to the Wraith Teyla would have done the same.
Worf couldn't even leave his injured wife behind to complete a vital mission, by Tyr's standards he isn't worthy of survival.
See you thought I meant some specific code of conduct when I said honor. I just meant that Worf and Ronon have lines they won't cross, Tyr doesn't, he would shoot through his own son to kill an enemy.
See, now you're moving the goalposts. The question posed wasn't "how ruthless is the character under specific scenarios?", it was "who would win a fight?"
By his own admission, Worf lacks some measure of ruthlessness and wariness ("Sons of Mogh"), but he blames that on the fact he's a Starfleet officer first and foremost, and he's his own worst critic, which is not a bad thing. He's still willing and able to do what he has to do to win: he seriously bruised or broke any number of Starfleet regulations* when he deliberately provoked Gowron, a foreign head of state, to a duel to the death, and then he killed him with a broken weapon.
Also, Tyr is kinda dishonorable even by Niet standards: the thing with his Girl-of-the-Week you mentioned had his onetime mother-in-law comment that he was "a bad husband but a good father", and the latter because it signified good ancestry for the child if wifey chose to keep it. And there's that weird obsession all the prides have with the corpse of the first Niet, something that goes above personal survival and reproduction even to Tyr. So it's not like the Niets are without moral red lines of their own.
* Offhand, the Prime Directive (interference in foreign politics), dueling, and a good prosecutor might be able to make a premeditated murder charge stick.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh man, all this talk about Tyr and Andromeda reminds me how much I regret Wolfe left the show and Kevin Sorbo taking helm. Tyr was a fun character. He still inspires some of my RPG character ideas to this day.
Andromeda had a lot of cool stuff. It did turn sour (I never even watched the final season(s)), and it will never be one of my top favorite shows, but it still has a place in my heart.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,167Community Moderator
Andromeda had a lot of cool stuff. It did turn sour (I never even watched the final season(s)), and it will never be one of my top favorite shows, but it still has a place in my heart.
To be fair, both shows were developed from pitches Gene came up with before TMP and were Trek originally.
Gene constantly came up with weird ideas for new shows.
Andromeda as we know it is basically some Phase-II-scripts and ideas combined with the script used for THREE TV-pilots Gene created for his suspended-animation-guy TV-Show (yup, that's the origin of D. Hunt - though not captain of a starship).
Or that time Gene was trying to set up a Gary-7-TV-show in the supposed last episode of TOS to have a production in case TOS won't be renewed.
Dillon Hunt seems to be a sort of stand-in name Roddenberry used for the male lead in a lot of his pitches. The first use of the name in anything actually produced was the male lead in "Genesis II", which was itself one of the repurposed Star Trek spinoff ideas like Andromeda, in this case set in the aftermath of WWIII (though it was pretty much squeezed out of the possibility of that role anyway by solidifying the TOS date at 2265 since it would not have left enough time for the situation depicted to develop before other Trek history events would have to happen).
Roddenberry's idea for Andromeda didn't use anything from Phase II, that part came later when Andromeda was being reconstructed from his notes and it was discovered that more parts were missing than originally thought, the P II stuff was used to fill the gaps to some degree.
I didn't say it was hard to contrive a scenario for two unlike fiction universes to collide.
I said it was hard to do it and not have the result come out looking like bad fan fiction.
As a fanfic writer myself, who kinda specializes in crossovers, I have to agree with this.
You CAN cross things over easily. BUT... the key to a GOOD one is HOW they are tied together. Good stories do it in such a way as to be believable. Bad ones just mash them together with no real explanation and expect them to work.
Example of a rather bad one: a Star Trek TNG/Sailor Moon story I stumbled across where Q was Serena's uncle or something. Chaos ensued and Q actually dropped her off on the Enterprise-D for protection.
Was a serious mess that just didn't make sense. No real explanation or set up. Just mashed potatos.
Example of a decent one (my opinion): a BSG/Trek crossover where Lt. Geata was actually a Starfleet Officer who went MIA as an Ensign, and joined Colonial Fleet. Later would use his knowledge of territorial borders to try and quietly steer Galactica and the fleet away from hostile powers like the Romulans until coming into contact with Starfleet.
The author actually took the time to build a believable hook that tied the two together in a way that made sense, even though the tech was not compatible.
Some things make crossovers easier, like Stargate. If you have the other half not be space faring or anything, you got at least two galaxies worth of Stargates you can put their world in. So you could have a full on Stargate/My Little Pony crossover because hey... they COULD have a stargate on their world, either in some distant corner of the Milky Way or Pegasus Galaxy, and they haven't found it yet. Other things, like the franchises mentioned upthread like Andromeda and Earth: Final Conflict, are a bit harder to do so. On the Andromeda side, their reliance on Slipstream that is totally different from any FTL method in Trek would mean that any Andromeda based ships sent to the Trek side would be basically stranded, ala season 5 of Andromeda. Any Trek ships sent to Andromeda would still be able to get around, but as Andromeda actually has three galaxies... the Trek ship isn't going far in any amount of time.
In short anything Trek/Andromeda would have to work around the fact that they won't be able to go anywhere in a reasonable amount of time, if at all. So theoretically you could set up some kind of scenario where a rift between them has opened and the crews have to work together to seal it before it destroys the multiverse or something like that. But don't expect Andromeda to pop out in say, the Azure Nebula, and have the Enterprise escort her back to Earth.
As I said, the key to a good crossover is HOW you tie them together. The hook has to be believable.
Actually, the Slipstream they use in Andromeda is the same Slipstream as the one in Voyager except that the crew of Voyager did it completely wrong (and it illustrates the difficulty and danger of non-organic pilots trying to use Slipstream rather well). In Voyager they tried to skim the interface between normal space and the quantum realm using the same M-theory ideas the quantum torpedo and most of the other quantum stuff is based on in TNG, which is not the way to do it.
In Andromeda they do a deep dive into the quantum realm and use their field effect "quantum runners" to glide along the surface of the quantum strings between star systems and galaxies. There is no way to navigate the realm the way it is done in "normal" space, it is all shifting paradoxes (like Schrodinger's Cat) and when one comes to a decision point (where strings cross) both options are right and wrong at the same time but a living mind almost always makes the right guess (the theory is that they influence which one is the "right" one mentally somehow) while an AI is subject to normal probabilities and only gets it right about half the time.
The Borg transwarp conduits are a related technology. Like Voyager they do not go fully into the quantum realm and skim across the interface membrane, but their conduits provide a calm corridor that avoids the shifting quantum fields that exist otherwise, but is far less versatile than riding the strings directly.
Just going by the visual evidence a case can be made for the Spoor drive being yet another variant, with the mycelial realm apparently existing inside the strings. That leaves the possibility open for Andromeda to take runner damage or something while entering slipstream which causes them to fall into a string instead of skim along its outside, and thereby end up falling out of Slipstream into the Trek universe. However, as others have pointed out, making a good crossover is deceptively difficult and I seriously doubt that the current Discovery writers could actually pull it off without making a mess of it.
The current Discovery writers like pulitzer prize winner Michael Chabon? ROFL man your bias just makes you say some stupid TRIBBLE sometimes.
The Andromeda slipstream is nothing like Voyager's at all. In actual fact the Spore Drive (spelling) is the Andromeda slipstream. They require living pilots, which Voyagers does not, and as is shown in Discovery Season 1 episode 11 on the return trip from the Mirror Universe the effect seen is identical.
Charbon did not write any episodes for Discovery, and did not do any overall plotting for the seasons either, twenty eight other people did that. Charbon's only involvement so far has been in short treks, having co-written "Calypso" and the entirety of "Q&A". He is on the writing staff of Picard, not Discovery.
As for "spoor", sometimes subtle humor does not work I see.
Anyway, in one sense you are right in that Voyager's slipstream was nothing like the Andromeda one, but that was because they came at it from a totally wrong direction, using very badly flawed theories and did not go so far into the quantum realm as the string layer. Apparently species 119 was still able to get it to work in the borderline between realms somehow, but Voyager missed whatever that was when they built their own version from the burned out remains of the alien one, and attempting to use Borg concepts to try and figure it out did not help any without a conduit.
And yes, a major problem was undoubtedly that they tried to use that drive without hooking up a living pilot in leu of whatever it was that allowed the species 119 version to work, but realistically they would not have known that.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Well, other sleepers are a stretch (though could work as a throwaway-explanation), but the federation banned genetic engineering and some rogue scientist uncovering the Botany Bay would actually be an interesting setup.
Also... Tyr's People would not actually NEED to be based on Khan. Look at the Clans from the Battletech-setting. The original Khans (title, not name) were participants of a large exodus that happened after their ideal of a united humanity failed. Their descendants eventually started a culture not unlike the Tyr's People concept. And over time those clanners developed the exact same mannerisms any genetically-engineered superhuman seems to have.
If I remember correctly, there was a Star Trek novel that had a human colony where they had genetically engineered castes. The workers would be genetically engineered with increased strength and stamina while the intellectuals would be genetically engineered with increased intelligence. The other instance of genetically engineered human colonies that I can remember in novels is one that created an augment virus that made the entire colony into augments. If I remember correctly, both novels were before Enterprise aired.
My character Tsin'xing
2: Well that was actually intentional... insane but intentional. the lady who engineered them actually wanted them to purge diseases from their environment. Except they saw non-self as disease.
3: Yeah but those guys try to hide it, and don't try to create an empire... probably in large part because their work is bad, and usually defective.
My character Tsin'xing
As for that novel with genetically-engineered castes, I think I liked it better when it was written by Aldous Huxley and titled Brave New World.
Leave both those series where they are right now. On the trash heap. The first season of each is very good and I enjoyed them. Everything after that needs to be put in a dark room forever. We've enough 'crossover' stuff in STO already. Without adding things and people from outside Star Trek.
tl;dr version: All crossovers are TRIBBLE. The only reason someone would want a crossover here is to acquire some sort of game breaking advantage which only they can see and use.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I think the guy Ronon tricks Teyla into getting him a meeting with so he can kill him would disagree with you. So would Teyla for that matter.
And as Worf himself said, "There is nothing more honorable than victory." Aside from preferring armed force to financial trickery, Klingons don't much care how you won; otherwise I daresay they'd consider the use of cloaking devices to be dishonorable, and they use them all the time.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In comparison having the Andromeda pop in the Azure Nebula, maybe because of some slipstream accident, would actually be much more plausible.
Isn't having lines that they won't cross, a specific code of conduct? Also, winning at any cost is a specific code of conduct as well. Even if it is extremely disgusting by our moral values.
See, now you're moving the goalposts. The question posed wasn't "how ruthless is the character under specific scenarios?", it was "who would win a fight?"
By his own admission, Worf lacks some measure of ruthlessness and wariness ("Sons of Mogh"), but he blames that on the fact he's a Starfleet officer first and foremost, and he's his own worst critic, which is not a bad thing. He's still willing and able to do what he has to do to win: he seriously bruised or broke any number of Starfleet regulations* when he deliberately provoked Gowron, a foreign head of state, to a duel to the death, and then he killed him with a broken weapon.
Also, Tyr is kinda dishonorable even by Niet standards: the thing with his Girl-of-the-Week you mentioned had his onetime mother-in-law comment that he was "a bad husband but a good father", and the latter because it signified good ancestry for the child if wifey chose to keep it. And there's that weird obsession all the prides have with the corpse of the first Niet, something that goes above personal survival and reproduction even to Tyr. So it's not like the Niets are without moral red lines of their own.
* Offhand, the Prime Directive (interference in foreign politics), dueling, and a good prosecutor might be able to make a premeditated murder charge stick.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Andromeda had a lot of cool stuff. It did turn sour (I never even watched the final season(s)), and it will never be one of my top favorite shows, but it still has a place in my heart.
Season 5 was a pretty big WTF.
Dillon Hunt seems to be a sort of stand-in name Roddenberry used for the male lead in a lot of his pitches. The first use of the name in anything actually produced was the male lead in "Genesis II", which was itself one of the repurposed Star Trek spinoff ideas like Andromeda, in this case set in the aftermath of WWIII (though it was pretty much squeezed out of the possibility of that role anyway by solidifying the TOS date at 2265 since it would not have left enough time for the situation depicted to develop before other Trek history events would have to happen).
Roddenberry's idea for Andromeda didn't use anything from Phase II, that part came later when Andromeda was being reconstructed from his notes and it was discovered that more parts were missing than originally thought, the P II stuff was used to fill the gaps to some degree.
Actually, the Slipstream they use in Andromeda is the same Slipstream as the one in Voyager except that the crew of Voyager did it completely wrong (and it illustrates the difficulty and danger of non-organic pilots trying to use Slipstream rather well). In Voyager they tried to skim the interface between normal space and the quantum realm using the same M-theory ideas the quantum torpedo and most of the other quantum stuff is based on in TNG, which is not the way to do it.
In Andromeda they do a deep dive into the quantum realm and use their field effect "quantum runners" to glide along the surface of the quantum strings between star systems and galaxies. There is no way to navigate the realm the way it is done in "normal" space, it is all shifting paradoxes (like Schrodinger's Cat) and when one comes to a decision point (where strings cross) both options are right and wrong at the same time but a living mind almost always makes the right guess (the theory is that they influence which one is the "right" one mentally somehow) while an AI is subject to normal probabilities and only gets it right about half the time.
The Borg transwarp conduits are a related technology. Like Voyager they do not go fully into the quantum realm and skim across the interface membrane, but their conduits provide a calm corridor that avoids the shifting quantum fields that exist otherwise, but is far less versatile than riding the strings directly.
Just going by the visual evidence a case can be made for the Spoor drive being yet another variant, with the mycelial realm apparently existing inside the strings. That leaves the possibility open for Andromeda to take runner damage or something while entering slipstream which causes them to fall into a string instead of skim along its outside, and thereby end up falling out of Slipstream into the Trek universe. However, as others have pointed out, making a good crossover is deceptively difficult and I seriously doubt that the current Discovery writers could actually pull it off without making a mess of it.
Charbon did not write any episodes for Discovery, and did not do any overall plotting for the seasons either, twenty eight other people did that. Charbon's only involvement so far has been in short treks, having co-written "Calypso" and the entirety of "Q&A". He is on the writing staff of Picard, not Discovery.
As for "spoor", sometimes subtle humor does not work I see.
Anyway, in one sense you are right in that Voyager's slipstream was nothing like the Andromeda one, but that was because they came at it from a totally wrong direction, using very badly flawed theories and did not go so far into the quantum realm as the string layer. Apparently species 119 was still able to get it to work in the borderline between realms somehow, but Voyager missed whatever that was when they built their own version from the burned out remains of the alien one, and attempting to use Borg concepts to try and figure it out did not help any without a conduit.
And yes, a major problem was undoubtedly that they tried to use that drive without hooking up a living pilot in leu of whatever it was that allowed the species 119 version to work, but realistically they would not have known that.