> @azrael605 said: > Despite what some are claiming, those like Artan and I who are actually watching Discovery are aware that in the era presented on the show Section 31 is an official branch of Starfleet. They have been a rogue group before that era, and they will be a rogue group later, but in this era they are have an official status.
Presumably they got that official status when the federation was formed
(The technology demonstrated is certainly interesting. Can they possibly be working with one or another of those temporal agencies?)
Possible, but I think they have a far more proactive approach at acquiring technology compared to the rest of the Federation. It is amazing and disturbing what scientists can come up with when they don't worry about ethics.
According to a Star Trek novel, the Earth was under the unknown control of an AI that was developed before the Federation was created and Section 31 is one of the tools that it uses when necessary. The AI inserted itself into all of the Federation systems without any Federation members knowing except for some people from Earth. The technology that Section 31 has could have come from the invasive AI assuming that Section 31 is run by an AI and not a bunch of unethical humans.
The reason why I mention this is there is a mention in Point of Light where Leland says "Control values his skill set" and one of the AIs in that Star Trek novel is called Control. We don't know if Control is a person, AI, or group of people, but it seems like they control Section 31.
Despite what some are claiming, those like Artan and I who are actually watching Discovery are aware that in the era presented on the show Section 31 is an official branch of Starfleet. They have been a rogue group before that era, and they will be a rogue group later, but in this era they are have an official status.
There is no way that Section 31 can ever be an official branch of Starfleet. After all, there is no way that Starfleet would authorize a mission for a Starfleet ship to infiltrate Qo'noS, kill a head of a Klingon house, abduct the son of the Klingon leader, and replicate a couple of heads that are genetically identical to Tyler and L'Rell's son.
Therefore, Section 31 might have unofficial ties with certain Starfleet Admirals so Starfleet can use the excuse of plausible deniability. It wasn't Starfleet that authorized this mission, but a rogue Federation organization that will be 'hunted down and brought to justice'. After all, the Federation are the good guys and too idealistic to do something like assassinate the head of a Klingon House.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,660Community Moderator
As far as I know... they just use the Black Badge to identify themselves, to people who know. Something they must have discontinued later on to get deeper into the shadows.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Dude watch the freaking show because you are wrong. What is on screen is canon, your agreement, or mine, is not required, its canon.
And what is your evidence for it? Claiming that it is canon doesn't make it canon without evidence. Being an official branch of Starfleet means that Section 31 is under the command of a Starfleet Admiral and each Section 31 personnel has to have an active Starfleet record. What we know about Section 31 is that they are an autonomous organization that answers to no one. They might be able to use Starfleet resources, but that doesn't mean they are part of Starfleet. In fact, we have confirmation that Section 31 is not part of Starfleet. From the bonus scene from Season 1:
Georgiou: You don't sound like Starfleet.
Leland: Because I am not Starfleet. We are far more resourceful. That is how we found you and don't worry, we know how to keep a secret. And we believe that you will be a valuable asset to us. So you can exert some influence over the fate of this galaxy. Or you can go back to your...this. Welcome to Section 31.
So it is canon that Section 31 is not part of Starfleet not that it is an official branch of Starfleet.
> @starkaos said:
> jonsills wrote: »
>
> (The technology demonstrated is certainly interesting. Can they possibly be working with one or another of those temporal agencies?)
>
>
>
>
> Possible, but I think they have a far more proactive approach at acquiring technology compared to the rest of the Federation. It is amazing and disturbing what scientists can come up with when they don't worry about ethics.
>
> According to a Star Trek novel, the Earth was under the unknown control of an AI that was developed before the Federation was created and Section 31 is one of the tools that it uses when necessary. The AI inserted itself into all of the Federation systems without any Federation members knowing except for some people from Earth. The technology that Section 31 has could have come from the invasive AI assuming that Section 31 is run by an AI and not a bunch of unethical humans.
>
> The reason why I mention this is there is a mention in Point of Light where Leland says "Control values his skill set" and one of the AIs in that Star Trek novel is called Control. We don't know if Control is a person, AI, or group of people, but it seems like they control Section 31.
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> Despite what some are claiming, those like Artan and I who are actually watching Discovery are aware that in the era presented on the show Section 31 is an official branch of Starfleet. They have been a rogue group before that era, and they will be a rogue group later, but in this era they are have an official status.
>
>
>
>
> There is no way that Section 31 can ever be an official branch of Starfleet. After all, there is no way that Starfleet would authorize a mission for a Starfleet ship to infiltrate Qo'noS, kill a head of a Klingon house, abduct the son of the Klingon leader, and replicate a couple of heads that are genetically identical to Tyler and L'Rell's son.
>
> Therefore, Section 31 might have unofficial ties with certain Starfleet Admirals so Starfleet can use the excuse of plausible deniability. It wasn't Starfleet that authorized this mission, but a rogue Federation organization that will be 'hunted down and brought to justice'. After all, the Federation are the good guys and too idealistic to do something like assassinate the head of a Klingon House.
Dude watch the freaking show because you are wrong. What is on screen is canon, your agreement, or mine, is not required, its canon.
What he wrote is called "plausible deniability". It's similar to my comparison to the Bureau of Ungentlemanly Warfare earlier - the British Government simply doesn't do such things, clearly if anyone committed these terrible acts against the enemy, it must have been rogue elements, and of course Her Majesty's agents will track down the culprits at once. Wink wink.
> @azrael605 said:
> Despite what some are claiming, those like Artan and I who are actually watching Discovery are aware that in the era presented on the show Section 31 is an official branch of Starfleet. They have been a rogue group before that era, and they will be a rogue group later, but in this era they are have an official status.
Presumably they got that official status when the federation was formed
Yeah, if Section 31 is mandated by the Starfleet Charter... um doesn't that make it part of Starfleet? Yes, they're black ops and covert ops, thus the government wants there to be plausible deniability. Which is why some of their agents cultivate the image of being "rogue" operatives. If the gov't can claim they were "off the reservation" then they can wash their hands of anything Section 31 does.
The idea they have NO oversight makes no sense. You can't have a budget AND no oversight. It makes more sense that their leadership is secret and may or may not be people who are publicly known to be Admirals, just not publicly known to be Section 31. IE, while Drake doesn't tell us the name of his boss, HE knows who his boss is. Heck it could be Quinn or T'nae for all we know.
>azrael605 said:
> Despite what some are claiming, those like Artan and I who are actually watching Discovery are aware that in the era presented on the show Section 31 is an official branch of Starfleet. They have been a rogue group before that era, and they will be a rogue group later, but in this era they are have an official status.
Presumably they got that official status when the federation was formed
Yeah, if Section 31 is mandated by the Starfleet Charter... um doesn't that make it part of Starfleet? Yes, they're black ops and covert ops, thus the government wants there to be plausible deniability. Which is why some of their agents cultivate the image of being "rogue" operatives. If the gov't can claim they were "off the reservation" then they can wash their hands of anything Section 31 does.
The idea they have NO oversight makes no sense. You can't have a budget AND no oversight. It makes more sense that their leadership is secret and may or may not be people who are publicly known to be Admirals, just not publicly known to be Section 31. IE, while Drake doesn't tell us the name of his boss, HE knows who his boss is. Heck it could be Quinn or T'nae for all we know.
Depends on what the Starfleet Charter says. Since we don't have a copy available, then all we can do is rely what was said on screen. Enterprise says that Article 14, Section 31 has "a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat." Star Trek is known for Captains bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat, but we never claim Archer, Kirk, Picard, or Sisko is part of Section 31. Section 31 seems to apply a part of the Starfleet Charter that should be rarely used for any situation they want. Also, there is a huge difference between bending the rules and pulverizing them to dust like Section 31 does. So unless there is a new Starfleet Charter created when the Federation was created, then the Starfleet Charter connection to Section 31 is extremely lousy.
As far as Drake's boss goes and if Section 31 is an unofficial branch of Starfleet, my guess is Admiral Chakotay since he is head of Starfleet Intelligence and the least likely actor to come back and reprise his role in STO.
Depends on what the Starfleet Charter says. Since we don't have a copy available, then all we can do is rely what was said on screen. Enterprise says that Article 14, Section 31 has "a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat." Star Trek is known for Captains bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat, but we never claim Archer, Kirk, Picard, or Sisko is part of Section 31. Section 31 seems to apply a part of the Starfleet Charter that should be rarely used for any situation they want. Also, there is a huge difference between bending the rules and pulverizing them to dust like Section 31 does. So unless there is a new Starfleet Charter created when the Federation was created, then the Starfleet Charter connection to Section 31 is extremely lousy.
Interesting point of view, but it doesn't add up. We're talking about the Charter, not day-to-day regs. Kirk's "creative" interpretations of the Prime Directive aren't related to the Charter. Kirk CAN'T violate the Charter since he's not directly bound by it. The Charter would presumably dictate the approximate nature of the regs, yes, this would presumably include how "flexible" they are, but more to the point it would define the basic functions of Starfleet such as goals, responsibilities, overall mission, and so on. Which is why it actually makes sense for the origin of a black-ops department to be part of the Charter. Presumably Starfleet Intelligence's existence is also part of the Charter. Article 14 is probably devoted to defining SFI's goals and mission.
As far as Drake's boss goes and if Section 31 is an unofficial branch of Starfleet, my guess is Admiral Chakotay since he is head of Starfleet Intelligence and the least likely actor to come back and reprise his role in STO.
As for Leland, the context of his disguise suggests that it was chosen more for ease of use than anything else. All he needs is the spots, no fancy surgery like changing the shape of his ears. AND he is now a race that the Klingons won't immediately shoot for visiting Qo'noS. That doesn't require him to know anything about Trill internal anatomy.
I wasn't saying he was an expert on Trill biology, only that the Trill are clearly known to Starfleet and that Leland is unlikely to pick a race he knows as little about as Crusher is implied to as he's an intelligence operative.
Given that the majority of Trill AREN'T Joined, No he really doesn't need to know anything about being Joined. Why? because his cover story ISN'T him playing a Joined Trill. Also if the Feds don't know about Joined Trill the Klingons wouldn't either.
Also... I don't remember there really being any actual physical sign of a pouch except during medical situations... and I think a medical tool was involved.
The "pouch" was an internal structure. It was not actually visible when closed. IIRC when Crusher transplanted a symbiote she had to cut open the abdominal cavity to open the "pouch".
Yes, it's internal, but it still has an obvious presence. The symbiote is very close to the surface of the skin so is going to be obvious to anybody who's as close to the Trill as is implied here.
Can you point to the location of the Symbiote?
didn't think so.
I don't think I'm close enough. As I said, the symbiote is subdural.
I always got the sense that Section 31 was NOT a part of Starfleet, but had members who were Starfleet.
I mean... for the most part Section 31 has been portrayed as a clandestine group that lives in the shadows. Its existances was not common knowledge, and their survival demands secrecy. Not only that, they draw their name from a clause in the original Starfleet Charter.
Oh come on. They have their own division badge and hang around on Starfleet ships. It's comon fanfiction simply because people don't like S31 so they stretch credulity to ridiculous extremes to ignore all supporting evidence that they are.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
As for Leland, the context of his disguise suggests that it was chosen more for ease of use than anything else. All he needs is the spots, no fancy surgery like changing the shape of his ears. AND he is now a race that the Klingons won't immediately shoot for visiting Qo'noS. That doesn't require him to know anything about Trill internal anatomy.
I wasn't saying he was an expert on Trill biology, only that the Trill are clearly known to Starfleet and that Leland is unlikely to pick a race he knows as little about as Crusher is implied to as he's an intelligence operative.
Given that the majority of Trill AREN'T Joined, No he really doesn't need to know anything about being Joined. Why? because his cover story ISN'T him playing a Joined Trill. Also if the Feds don't know about Joined Trill the Klingons wouldn't either.
I never said he was playing a joined Trill.
Technically true, but you insinuated he had reason to know about the Joining process as part of his cover.
Also... I don't remember there really being any actual physical sign of a pouch except during medical situations... and I think a medical tool was involved.
The "pouch" was an internal structure. It was not actually visible when closed. IIRC when Crusher transplanted a symbiote she had to cut open the abdominal cavity to open the "pouch".
Yes, it's internal, but it still has an obvious presence. The symbiote is very close to the surface of the skin so is going to be obvious to anybody who's as close to the Trill as is implied here.
Can you point to the location of the Symbiote?
didn't think so.
I don't think I'm close enough. As I said, the symbiote is subdural.
"Subdural" requires it to be under the skin, but outside the chest cavity. The evidence suggests the Symbiote is INSIDE the torso tucked alongside the internal organs.
> @artan42 said: > > Oh come on. They have their own division badge and hang around on Starfleet ships. It's comon fanfiction simply because people don't like S31 so they stretch credulity to ridiculous extremes to ignore all supporting evidence that they are.
If people wouldn't like S31 it wouldn't have been made basically the most important and omnipresent body in the whole story.
At this point the show's message changed to 'everything just happens because shady forces allow it'. In DS9 they gave S31 literal GeStaPo coats, now we learn everyone just spouts TRIBBLE and the real story is 'we do what everybody else does as well'
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
> artan42 said:
>
> Oh come on. They have their own division badge and hang around on Starfleet ships. It's comon fanfiction simply because people don't like S31 so they stretch credulity to ridiculous extremes to ignore all supporting evidence that they are.
If people wouldn't like S31 it wouldn't have been made basically the most important and omnipresent body in the whole story.
At this point the show's message changed to 'everything just happens because shady forces allow it'. In DS9 they gave S31 literal GeStaPo coats, now we learn everyone just spouts TRIBBLE and the real story is 'we do what everybody else does as well'
It will be interesting to see if Discovery draws inspiration from the Star Trek novels since as I said before in this thread that one Star Trek novel had an AI control Earth and Section 31 without the majority of the populace realizing it.
Although a cool enemy, the introduction of Section 31 in DS9 erased any idealism in Star Trek. We are supposed to have evolved as a species by the 23rd Century and yet the Federation still relies on the same nonsense that 21st Century governments rely on. At least the Romulans and Cardassians are honest about relying on unsavory practices with the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order.
As far as having Section 31 having their own division badge and hanging around on Starfleet ships, it is far more likely that Discovery has ties to Section 31 or the division badge was originally for some other Starfleet division until CBS decided to have Section 31 as part of Discovery. After all, we just see one guard with a Section 31 badge in one scene during Season 1 and it takes until the bonus scene after the Season Finale to show that it is a Section 31 badge. Discovery is supposed to be a testbed of a ton of interesting technology not just the Spore Drive so it wouldn't be surprising if Section 31 has their influence on the Discovery. So until we see Section 31 badges on regular Starfleet ships, then Section 31 doesn't hang around on Starfleet ships unless they are undercover for some mission.
S31 as a antagonist is fine. It is the weird 'fetish' for black-ops following 9/11 that ENT and the following works expressed some weird admiration for it. When S31 showed up in STO, I wanted to fight them,not work for them. Disrupt their nationalist haggling and end the situation they meddled in in a better way.
Mirror Georgieu isn't even a likeable character. Where are there gping with this, I wonder.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
As for Leland, the context of his disguise suggests that it was chosen more for ease of use than anything else. All he needs is the spots, no fancy surgery like changing the shape of his ears. AND he is now a race that the Klingons won't immediately shoot for visiting Qo'noS. That doesn't require him to know anything about Trill internal anatomy.
I wasn't saying he was an expert on Trill biology, only that the Trill are clearly known to Starfleet and that Leland is unlikely to pick a race he knows as little about as Crusher is implied to as he's an intelligence operative.
Given that the majority of Trill AREN'T Joined, No he really doesn't need to know anything about being Joined. Why? because his cover story ISN'T him playing a Joined Trill. Also if the Feds don't know about Joined Trill the Klingons wouldn't either.
I never said he was playing a joined Trill.
Technically true, but you insinuated he had reason to know about the Joining process as part of his cover.
Also... I don't remember there really being any actual physical sign of a pouch except during medical situations... and I think a medical tool was involved.
The "pouch" was an internal structure. It was not actually visible when closed. IIRC when Crusher transplanted a symbiote she had to cut open the abdominal cavity to open the "pouch".
Yes, it's internal, but it still has an obvious presence. The symbiote is very close to the surface of the skin so is going to be obvious to anybody who's as close to the Trill as is implied here.
Can you point to the location of the Symbiote?
didn't think so.
I don't think I'm close enough. As I said, the symbiote is subdural.
"Subdural" requires it to be under the skin, but outside the chest cavity. The evidence suggests the Symbiote is INSIDE the torso tucked alongside the internal organs.
Not from what the symbiote pouch looked like. It looked more like a layer of skin over the normal internal skin. Obviously it was a prosthetic over the actors actual skin but as it's called a puch it would imply that's not far from the biological truth.
If people wouldn't like S31 it wouldn't have been made basically the most important and omnipresent body in the whole story.
I don't think that's true. Slone was very effective but Harris and Marcus lost. It remains to be seen what S31s role is in DSC (and their own series) but so far Leyland's done nothing of note and the Emperor has only pulled off what Sisko, O'Brien, and Worf did in DS9.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I just rewatched 'Inquisition', where S31 first appears, and I feel I should point out Sloane was pretty explicit that Section 31 was included in the original Starfleet Charter, and he's clearly referring to the organisation, not the legislation. As far as I'm concerned, that settles the matter: Harris and Reed are Section 31 (even if Reed is more of a reluctant operative like Bashir).
Mirror Georgieu isn't even a likeable character. Where are there gping with this, I wonder.
A spinoff series where we can have far more Mirror Georgiou and Section 31. Hopefully, the Section 31 coverage will be reduced to a minimum or nonexistent in Discovery with this spinoff so people that like Section 31 can watch the spinoff while people that don't like Section 31 can watch one of the other series.
I doubt it. They are just one Borg away from randomly cramming everything halfway popular about Trek in that show.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If the "boss" of Section 31 is called Control, I hope that she's played or voiced by Camryn Manheim. If it's an AI, she must be the love child of Samaritan and The Machine.
I doubt it. They are just one Borg away from randomly cramming everything halfway popular about Trek in that show.
In fact, the Borg were probably created by Section 31, to force Starfleet to speed up weapons development for the Dominion War.
[/ExquisiteFanFictionWriting]
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I doubt it. They are just one Borg away from randomly cramming everything halfway popular about Trek in that show.
I hope not. The Borg should stay as far away from Discovery as possible unless Discovery decides to break all pretense about trying to stay true to canon.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,660Community Moderator
If the "boss" of Section 31 is called Control, I hope that she's played or voiced by Camryn Manheim. If it's an AI, she must be the love child of Samaritan and The Machine.
I hope not. The Borg should stay as far away from Discovery as possible unless Discovery decides to break all pretense about trying to stay true to canon.
Borg are overdone. Besides... We've really only seen that time period from the point of view of one ship. So they got room to play around with.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I thought black badges belonged to Starfleet Intelligence. It would be a good department in which to hide S31 operatives.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,660Community Moderator
Starfleet Intelligence has no specific badge or insignia in canon. The only instance of that is black departmental color in STO, specifically VanZyl and Burges.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
In 'Inquisition', Sloane does refer to Section 31 as "another branch of Starfleet Intelligence", so that would track.
The main issue is that S31 seems to behave a bit like Cerberus in Mass Effect, as an independant entity that doesn't answer to anyone but themselves.
They may justify it as protecting the Federation, but if even HALF the things they've done gets out into the realm of Public Knowledge...
For them the ONLY thing holding them back is "how big a threat is X to the Federation". The ends justify the means.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
...For them the ONLY thing holding them back is "how big a threat is X to the Federation". The ends justify the means.
And that is my problem with Section 31. By the 24th century we're supposed to be better than that. A lot of crimes are excused by this bull, and bull it is.
There is never a time when a better way cannot be found than to repeat the crimes of the past. Imagination may be lacking, and a person may do something he later regrets in a moment of desperation, but in the end he regrets the crimes.
S31 doesn't. They hold themselves up as knights when what they really are is thugs and assassins.
If Starfleet ideals mean anything at all, they define what it is to be Starfleet at their worst moment. It's not who you'll kill to save the world, but what you are willing to die for that is the true measure of an ideal. If you are willing to toss aside the ideals for pragmatic purposes, then you never really had them, and all of Starfleet is exposed as hypocrites.
Starfleet ought to be actively hunting down S31 and eliminating them as the cancer they are in the body Federation. They aren't needed. There is a better way.
That's what Trek used to be about. Now? I can't tell the difference between Trek and Starship Troopers. Well, yes I can: Starship Troopers is internally consistent.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,660Community Moderator
That's what Trek used to be about. Now? I can't tell the difference between Trek and Starship Troopers. Well, yes I can: Starship Troopers is internally consistent.
Not exactly an argument, considering TOS wasn't that consistent with itself. We got more consistancy in TNG on.
As for Starfleet opposing S31... pretty much in every case we already see Starfleet opposing S31. In DS9 Captain Sisko actively opposed S31 because, in the words of Captain Picard, "Its an attack on its very soul".
In Enterprise, Archer doesn't like S31 because he doesn't approve of "Ends justify the Means."
And in Discovery we saw the crew of Discovery put up with it... until they crossed a line.
Dr. Bashir didn't like his S31 connections and tried to break ties.
Lt. Reed tried to stay out after being a part of it, especially due to his loyalty to Captain Archer when orders from S31 conflicted with his assignment to Enterprise.
So in effect... its already established that many in Starfleet already would not/do not like Section 31 because it is literally a shadow organization that does NOT represent the ideals of the Federation. Even before the Federation was founded, Starfleet and S31 were butting heads.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Comments
> Despite what some are claiming, those like Artan and I who are actually watching Discovery are aware that in the era presented on the show Section 31 is an official branch of Starfleet. They have been a rogue group before that era, and they will be a rogue group later, but in this era they are have an official status.
Presumably they got that official status when the federation was formed
Possible, but I think they have a far more proactive approach at acquiring technology compared to the rest of the Federation. It is amazing and disturbing what scientists can come up with when they don't worry about ethics.
According to a Star Trek novel, the Earth was under the unknown control of an AI that was developed before the Federation was created and Section 31 is one of the tools that it uses when necessary. The AI inserted itself into all of the Federation systems without any Federation members knowing except for some people from Earth. The technology that Section 31 has could have come from the invasive AI assuming that Section 31 is run by an AI and not a bunch of unethical humans.
The reason why I mention this is there is a mention in Point of Light where Leland says "Control values his skill set" and one of the AIs in that Star Trek novel is called Control. We don't know if Control is a person, AI, or group of people, but it seems like they control Section 31.
There is no way that Section 31 can ever be an official branch of Starfleet. After all, there is no way that Starfleet would authorize a mission for a Starfleet ship to infiltrate Qo'noS, kill a head of a Klingon house, abduct the son of the Klingon leader, and replicate a couple of heads that are genetically identical to Tyler and L'Rell's son.
Therefore, Section 31 might have unofficial ties with certain Starfleet Admirals so Starfleet can use the excuse of plausible deniability. It wasn't Starfleet that authorized this mission, but a rogue Federation organization that will be 'hunted down and brought to justice'. After all, the Federation are the good guys and too idealistic to do something like assassinate the head of a Klingon House.
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And what is your evidence for it? Claiming that it is canon doesn't make it canon without evidence. Being an official branch of Starfleet means that Section 31 is under the command of a Starfleet Admiral and each Section 31 personnel has to have an active Starfleet record. What we know about Section 31 is that they are an autonomous organization that answers to no one. They might be able to use Starfleet resources, but that doesn't mean they are part of Starfleet. In fact, we have confirmation that Section 31 is not part of Starfleet. From the bonus scene from Season 1:
Georgiou: You don't sound like Starfleet.
Leland: Because I am not Starfleet. We are far more resourceful. That is how we found you and don't worry, we know how to keep a secret. And we believe that you will be a valuable asset to us. So you can exert some influence over the fate of this galaxy. Or you can go back to your...this. Welcome to Section 31.
So it is canon that Section 31 is not part of Starfleet not that it is an official branch of Starfleet.
The idea they have NO oversight makes no sense. You can't have a budget AND no oversight. It makes more sense that their leadership is secret and may or may not be people who are publicly known to be Admirals, just not publicly known to be Section 31. IE, while Drake doesn't tell us the name of his boss, HE knows who his boss is. Heck it could be Quinn or T'nae for all we know.
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Depends on what the Starfleet Charter says. Since we don't have a copy available, then all we can do is rely what was said on screen. Enterprise says that Article 14, Section 31 has "a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat." Star Trek is known for Captains bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat, but we never claim Archer, Kirk, Picard, or Sisko is part of Section 31. Section 31 seems to apply a part of the Starfleet Charter that should be rarely used for any situation they want. Also, there is a huge difference between bending the rules and pulverizing them to dust like Section 31 does. So unless there is a new Starfleet Charter created when the Federation was created, then the Starfleet Charter connection to Section 31 is extremely lousy.
As far as Drake's boss goes and if Section 31 is an unofficial branch of Starfleet, my guess is Admiral Chakotay since he is head of Starfleet Intelligence and the least likely actor to come back and reprise his role in STO.
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I never said he was playing a joined Trill.
I don't think I'm close enough. As I said, the symbiote is subdural.
Oh come on. They have their own division badge and hang around on Starfleet ships. It's comon fanfiction simply because people don't like S31 so they stretch credulity to ridiculous extremes to ignore all supporting evidence that they are.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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>
> Oh come on. They have their own division badge and hang around on Starfleet ships. It's comon fanfiction simply because people don't like S31 so they stretch credulity to ridiculous extremes to ignore all supporting evidence that they are.
If people wouldn't like S31 it wouldn't have been made basically the most important and omnipresent body in the whole story.
At this point the show's message changed to 'everything just happens because shady forces allow it'. In DS9 they gave S31 literal GeStaPo coats, now we learn everyone just spouts TRIBBLE and the real story is 'we do what everybody else does as well'
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It will be interesting to see if Discovery draws inspiration from the Star Trek novels since as I said before in this thread that one Star Trek novel had an AI control Earth and Section 31 without the majority of the populace realizing it.
Although a cool enemy, the introduction of Section 31 in DS9 erased any idealism in Star Trek. We are supposed to have evolved as a species by the 23rd Century and yet the Federation still relies on the same nonsense that 21st Century governments rely on. At least the Romulans and Cardassians are honest about relying on unsavory practices with the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order.
As far as having Section 31 having their own division badge and hanging around on Starfleet ships, it is far more likely that Discovery has ties to Section 31 or the division badge was originally for some other Starfleet division until CBS decided to have Section 31 as part of Discovery. After all, we just see one guard with a Section 31 badge in one scene during Season 1 and it takes until the bonus scene after the Season Finale to show that it is a Section 31 badge. Discovery is supposed to be a testbed of a ton of interesting technology not just the Spore Drive so it wouldn't be surprising if Section 31 has their influence on the Discovery. So until we see Section 31 badges on regular Starfleet ships, then Section 31 doesn't hang around on Starfleet ships unless they are undercover for some mission.
Mirror Georgieu isn't even a likeable character. Where are there gping with this, I wonder.
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Not from what the symbiote pouch looked like. It looked more like a layer of skin over the normal internal skin. Obviously it was a prosthetic over the actors actual skin but as it's called a puch it would imply that's not far from the biological truth.
I don't think that's true. Slone was very effective but Harris and Marcus lost. It remains to be seen what S31s role is in DSC (and their own series) but so far Leyland's done nothing of note and the Emperor has only pulled off what Sisko, O'Brien, and Worf did in DS9.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
A spinoff series where we can have far more Mirror Georgiou and Section 31. Hopefully, the Section 31 coverage will be reduced to a minimum or nonexistent in Discovery with this spinoff so people that like Section 31 can watch the spinoff while people that don't like Section 31 can watch one of the other series.
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In fact, the Borg were probably created by Section 31, to force Starfleet to speed up weapons development for the Dominion War.
[/ExquisiteFanFictionWriting]
I hope not. The Borg should stay as far away from Discovery as possible unless Discovery decides to break all pretense about trying to stay true to canon.
I vote for GLaDOS
Borg are overdone. Besides... We've really only seen that time period from the point of view of one ship. So they got room to play around with.
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In 'Inquisition', Sloane does refer to Section 31 as "another branch of Starfleet Intelligence", so that would track.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
The main issue is that S31 seems to behave a bit like Cerberus in Mass Effect, as an independant entity that doesn't answer to anyone but themselves.
They may justify it as protecting the Federation, but if even HALF the things they've done gets out into the realm of Public Knowledge...
For them the ONLY thing holding them back is "how big a threat is X to the Federation". The ends justify the means.
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And that is my problem with Section 31. By the 24th century we're supposed to be better than that. A lot of crimes are excused by this bull, and bull it is.
There is never a time when a better way cannot be found than to repeat the crimes of the past. Imagination may be lacking, and a person may do something he later regrets in a moment of desperation, but in the end he regrets the crimes.
S31 doesn't. They hold themselves up as knights when what they really are is thugs and assassins.
If Starfleet ideals mean anything at all, they define what it is to be Starfleet at their worst moment. It's not who you'll kill to save the world, but what you are willing to die for that is the true measure of an ideal. If you are willing to toss aside the ideals for pragmatic purposes, then you never really had them, and all of Starfleet is exposed as hypocrites.
Starfleet ought to be actively hunting down S31 and eliminating them as the cancer they are in the body Federation. They aren't needed. There is a better way.
That's what Trek used to be about. Now? I can't tell the difference between Trek and Starship Troopers. Well, yes I can: Starship Troopers is internally consistent.
Not exactly an argument, considering TOS wasn't that consistent with itself. We got more consistancy in TNG on.
As for Starfleet opposing S31... pretty much in every case we already see Starfleet opposing S31. In DS9 Captain Sisko actively opposed S31 because, in the words of Captain Picard, "Its an attack on its very soul".
In Enterprise, Archer doesn't like S31 because he doesn't approve of "Ends justify the Means."
And in Discovery we saw the crew of Discovery put up with it... until they crossed a line.
Dr. Bashir didn't like his S31 connections and tried to break ties.
Lt. Reed tried to stay out after being a part of it, especially due to his loyalty to Captain Archer when orders from S31 conflicted with his assignment to Enterprise.
So in effect... its already established that many in Starfleet already would not/do not like Section 31 because it is literally a shadow organization that does NOT represent the ideals of the Federation. Even before the Federation was founded, Starfleet and S31 were butting heads.
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