The Endeavor system was an interesting idea, give out extra rewards for encouraging players to try out varied content and a mixture of activities.
Sadly, it;s just a shallow attempt at a fix in reality. The rewards can be had elsewhere, and often in bigger volumes so the system itself is not providing anything new or enticing.
And a lot of the endeavor missions can easily be gamed by use of easy, 2 minute Foundry maps or missions, so people aren't really playing mixed content to get the rewards either.
Would have been better with some sort of unique reward system to get people playing queues. Give out some fancy shield visuals, or costumes, or boffs. And let the items be traded so those unwilling can still buy if they wish and those willing can get a little profit of the lazier crowd.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I don't know... chance at 350k ECs in a single go for running, say... three Romulan space patrols?
I wouldn't say that's shallow. Its RNG.
But it does need more veriety in the Endeavor objectives. People are figuring out how to game the PvP one, which honestly isn't that much of an issue IMO. Its the fact that the "Complete a mission in the X story arc" seems to favor Dyson or Delta the most, followed by Iconian War. Shouldn't it have options for ALL story arcs? Also there are VERY FEW options when the Dyson arc comes up. Literally only 3.
So frankly I think the Endeavor System needs to have an expansion to its objective table.
And while we're at it...
Can we PLEASE get a revamp of the GPL store? I got over 2 mil GPL and nothing to spend it on! My main's already got all the trophies, and I have no interest in consumable holoemitters. GPL is literally a useless currency right now, only used for Nullifiers and a few DOff assignments. We're getting GPL coming in at a rate we could probably build the Great Pyramid of Giza with all the bars we've collected. Hell... I'm sure we could build Atlantis by now out of GPL!
YOU all should realize that just Pre Victory is Life , Borticus in an interview after checking numbers admitted he was shocked that the average DPS in the game was around 5K. That's an average counting the numbers you all powerful high and mighty top 3 players or whatever pull down. Even with you 100 Kers the average was 5K.
Just saying your rants about someone not being good enough because they only do 12K or whatever mean about jack and TRIBBLE when that truth hits.
It's a game. We're a community. So maybe people like Tunebreaker can take a break from their high horse and instead of ridiculing other players , offer advice and kind spoken help.
Oh what the heck am I talking about this is the forums. If you couldn't make fun of the lessers some of you DPSers would never even visit.
Sorry if this is salty, but Tunebreaker has been a strait up jerk late in the thread, making uncalled for attacks at people because they don't meet his standard. Started with good ideas and turned into a jerk. shrugs. At least his kind of attitude isn't on my conscience.
Problem is that too often comments around here are an insult to not only DPSer but intelligence itself. Hard to respond in any other way but we try.
Correction. Some of you try. Some of you are actually nice people. Some people who enjoy breaking music could take some lessons in manners. Just my opinion.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
YOU all should realize that just Pre Victory is Life , Borticus in an interview after checking numbers admitted he was shocked that the average DPS in the game was around 5K. That's an average counting the numbers you all powerful high and mighty top 3 players or whatever pull down. Even with you 100 Kers the average was 5K.
Just saying your rants about someone not being good enough because they only do 12K or whatever mean about jack and **** when that truth hits.
It's a game. We're a community. So maybe people like Tunebreaker can take a break from their high horse and instead of ridiculing other players , offer advice and kind spoken help.
Oh what the heck am I talking about this is the forums. If you couldn't make fun of the lessers some of you DPSers would never even visit.
Sorry if this is salty, but Tunebreaker has been a strait up jerk late in the thread, making uncalled for attacks at people because they don't meet his standard. Started with good ideas and turned into a jerk. shrugs. At least his kind of attitude isn't on my conscience.
THe Average was 5K.
5K.
Stop being elitist.
Peace Love and Phasers
- Hippie
Edit : Laughs at the censoring of P double Oh P
Whoa.. easy now.
Look, I know things got a bit tense between Rattler and Tune but there is no need to come along and throw more coal on the fire. People are passionate about things they care about, we all like this game and we all have our opinions and as such it's not unusual for people to sometimes but heads.
I am going to ask though, can you provide some link or something that is dated pre VIL where Bort said that the "average is 5k?" Because I am respectfully saying that it can't possibly be true. Just to put things into perspective, on the average ISA run, hangar pets alone are averaging between 8-12k. That means that if you do an ISA run, launch your pets and do nothing but tab targets and heal yourself, you can do at least 8k.
I am not denying that he said that, but I think you might have the timing skewed a bit. Back pre Delta Rising the bar was 10k DPS. 10k was considered a good amount to be sure you're helpful to your team. Since that time though.. you know how MMO's are.. power creep right? Anyway, that number has changed and today it's roughly 30k at minimum to be sure you're not being carried through content. Now, before you freak out, 30k is amazingly easy to achieve. Most people who say 'I only average 10k' really average much more and they just don't realize it. They are still using the old standard and figuring they're about average so they say they do 10k, but honestly.. It would be very very difficult to do such a small amount. In order to do 10k, you would have to purposely handicap yourself. 5k would almost be impossible without just being AFK.
Before I take a mountain of TRIBBLE, I am not 'DPS shaming' anyone.. I am saying that some players are actually better then they think they are. As for the argument, Tunebreaker was not the only one being condescending in the exchange so if we're going to attack people unprovoked, lets distribute that evenly ok?
Better yet, lets just leave it alone and continue on topic of the thread.
"I am going to ask though, can you provide some link or something that is dated pre VIL where Bort said that the "average is 5k?" Because I am respectfully saying that it can't possibly be true. Just to put things into perspective, on the average ISA run, hangar pets alone are averaging between 8-12k. That means that if you do an ISA run, launch your pets and do nothing but tab targets and heal yourself, you can do at least 8k."
Have a message out to Borticus and others not on the forum to point in the right direction.
I don't remember if it was a 10Fwd Weekly or a podcast , but I will provide what I can soon as I find its location.
It's late right now. People may not be up.
Being clear , when I heard it, it shocked me to. I come in somewhere around 40K with my best toons, and I thought I was like the worst player ever because of ... well DPS talk I read here on the forums.
And again, my apologies for my saltiness, I just get triggered when people in any situation get to shaming others for not being "good enough" , I responded in that mindset. Its that I have this whole obviously false image that people in this game in general act like the friends I have in game and would prefer helping everyone become better rather than shaming those who are not. That's obviously not true. I apparently live in a happy bubble of people in this game.
Peace, Love, Joy, Phasers and Apologies for letting Defensive Hippie type words earlier.
- Hippie
Being clear , when I heard it, it shocked me to. I come in somewhere around 40K with my best toons, and I thought I was like the worst player ever because of ... well DPS talk I read here on the forums.
Absolutely not.. 40K is a very good number.
I know it gets a little heated when people start throwing around 100k+ numbers, but please let me assure you.. no one thinks that anyone below that 'sucks.' No one thinks 40k or 30k sucks.. or even 20k. We would like to help that 20k guy if they want the help (if not, that's cool too) but none of them are terrible players.
To be clear though, this isn't even about DPS it's about the way some of these queues are structured. One of the things that's proposed to change in the OP is the use of 'waves of enemies' to create artificial time gates. Content where you cannot progress it in less then X Minutes no matter what and enemies will pour in the entire time. Changing conditions like that will greatly aid players that do lower DPS as these things are often an obstacle to players that just can't cut through the waves quick enough.
The suggestions were never about DPS, the topic just got dragged in that direction. It's about making some of the queue missions more fun and engaging and removing artificial time gates that most players like to avoid. The goal is to aid high, low and mid range DPS players alike.
In that vein , I couldn't agree more , the artificial time gates do nothing but punish people who have the good numbers. If someone has the ability to clear a 10 Minute wave in 2 minutes , GREAT. No need to keep sending more enemies just to padd the time of the Queue. I mean TFO. The main solution I would suggest is stopping the artificial time gates and providing true Elite versions for the players that want to try them and can handle it.
YOU all should realize that just Pre Victory is Life , Borticus in an interview after checking numbers admitted he was shocked that the average DPS in the game was around 5K. That's an average counting the numbers you all powerful high and mighty top 3 players or whatever pull down. Even with you 100 Kers the average was 5K.
Just saying your rants about someone not being good enough because they only do 12K or whatever mean about jack and **** when that truth hits.
Knowing Bort, he got his 5k average combining space and ground DPS.
And 12k *is* seriously low. You are not capable of doing any space elites and start to become even hindrance to the team in advanced. My Fleet Support Presidio (an NPC I have absolutely no control over other than when and where to spawn it) does 12k just by itself pretty often. But apparently hearing truth offends you folks...
But you know, I wouldn't care any of it if people wouldn't lecture *me* about the game. I have never DPS shamed anyone out of blue. It's always when they try to insinuate somehow that they're better than me because they do *less* DPS.
If you're fine with how you're doing and just minding your own business, more power to you. If asking politely for help, I always help. You can scroll back in my forum post history, for example, and see for yourself how I generally always tend to help others out, if they're not throwing TRIBBLE at me. But when you spout absolute BS and then have the temerity to lecture me when I correct you, then yes, you will get aggro from me.
It's looking from just my own searching , as indeed people seem asleep, that the statement was around the Dark Times, I mean the Rebalance of S13. Not for sure but it seems DPS was discussed a bunch at that time. Again, soon as I find the podcast or where it was said, I will share. I'm thinking it was Priority One.
Problem is that too often comments around here are an insult to not only DPSer but intelligence itself. Hard to respond in any other way but we try.
Correction. Some of you try. Some of you are actually nice people. Some people who enjoy breaking music could take some lessons in manners. Just my opinion.
Just out of curiosity, when whas the last post around here made by a DPS minded player with the aim to show off and making others with lower numbers look bad on purpose?
Granted, there are some in game but frankly the numbers they achive are best described as "slighly above avarage" and there is no reason on earth why they should be taken sceriously or used as examples for the whole DPS comunity in sum.
I can also assure you that if peeps in channels show a bad character for whatever reason they are left out of all good DPS parties we celebreate.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Just out of curiosity, when whas the last post around here made by a DPS minded player with the aim to show off and making others with lower numbers look bad on purpose?
Granted, there are some in game but frankly the numbers they achive are best described as "slighly above avarage" and there is no reason on earth why they should be taken sceriously or used as examples for the whole DPS comunity in sum.
I can also assure you that if peeps in channels show a bad character for whatever reason they are left out of all good DPS parties we celebreate.
My apology for being triggered and defensive is out there, best I can do.
Personally in multiple venues, forums, reddit, and in game chat channels, I have encountered shaming for 'not being good enough' from some members of the DPS community over the years. I fully admit at the same time there have been some who have been incredibly helpful and very kind in helping me understand DPS and how it works. It's why I feel even like I contribute at all these days. Because people helped.
And it is truly good to hear that when you guys encounter or hear of it in channels , you deal with it.
Seriously, nothing ruins a players desire to better themselves quicker than being shamed for even trying.
So , cheers and thanks to good folks I have encountered. People who shame others can pound sand far as I am concerned.
Being someone who is Shaming people is never a good look on anyone. In my opinion.
Just out of curiosity, when whas the last post around here made by a DPS minded player with the aim to show off and making others with lower numbers look bad on purpose?
Granted, there are some in game but frankly the numbers they achive are best described as "slighly above avarage" and there is no reason on earth why they should be taken sceriously or used as examples for the whole DPS comunity in sum.
I can also assure you that if peeps in channels show a bad character for whatever reason they are left out of all good DPS parties we celebreate.
My apology for being triggered and defensive is out there, best I can do.
Personally in multiple venues, forums, reddit, and in game chat channels, I have encountered shaming for 'not being good enough' from some members of the DPS community over the years. I fully admit at the same time there have been some who have been incredibly helpful and very kind in helping me understand DPS and how it works. It's why I feel even like I contribute at all these days. Because people helped.
And it is truly good to hear that when you guys encounter or hear of it in channels , you deal with it.
Seriously, nothing ruins a players desire to better themselves quicker than being shamed for even trying.
So , cheers and thanks to good folks I have encountered. People who shame others can pound sand far as I am concerned.
Being someone who is Shaming people is never a good look on anyone. In my opinion.
- Hippie
Alls fair mate. I understand that and seen it myself once too often.
Think the only elitism about the whole thing is the fact that the different channels do seperate a bit. Bronze is 10k while Diamond is 160k. They are supposed to give peeps an orientation as to what capabilities the respective peeps you set a team up with are likely to have. Nothing more.
Leaving players behind for PvE because they are not good enough is the sadest experience I encountered in this game. I hate that so for me personally not having to do this is the main reason to become a good DPSer. You know, the more I bring the less my team-mates have to in order to have rewarding game experience without leaving anybody out.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I am going to ask though, can you provide some link or something that is dated pre VIL where Bort said that the "average is 5k?" Because I am respectfully saying that it can't possibly be true. Just to put things into perspective, on the average ISA run, hangar pets alone are averaging between 8-12k. That means that if you do an ISA run, launch your pets and do nothing but tab targets and heal yourself, you can do at least 8k.
I am not denying that he said that, but I think you might have the timing skewed a bit. Back pre Delta Rising the bar was 10k DPS. 10k was considered a good amount to be sure you're helpful to your team. Since that time though.. you know how MMO's are.. power creep right? Anyway, that number has changed and today it's roughly 30k at minimum to be sure you're not being carried through content. Now, before you freak out, 30k is amazingly easy to achieve. Most people who say 'I only average 10k' really average much more and they just don't realize it. They are still using the old standard and figuring they're about average so they say they do 10k, but honestly.. It would be very very difficult to do such a small amount. In order to do 10k, you would have to purposely handicap yourself. 5k would almost be impossible without just being AFK.
I don't think 5k sounds implausible at all. Do consider Borticus would be quoting game internal statistics, not ones calculated by third-party software. His statistics wouldn't be limited to ISA, either. It would be including all those newbs whining the story missions are too hard and stuff. Players who would be happy to be able to say they average 10k, as opposed to asking for help to kill a single D'deridex on Normal.
Lots of people don't have hangar pets. Although I do suppose it would be an easy advice to give people with very low performance..."fly a carrier, the pets will do better than you."
And yes, there has been power creep, but the content is the same as ever. Easier even, since they removed the fail conditions and keep adding content that wins itself just wait out the timer. A ship that was good enough in 2015 is still good enough. The poor difficulty curve and reward structures drawing experinced players into newb content to curbstomp everything faster than others can keep up isn't the players' fault.
YOU all should realize that just Pre Victory is Life , Borticus in an interview after checking numbers admitted he was shocked that the average DPS in the game was around 5K. That's an average counting the numbers you all powerful high and mighty top 3 players or whatever pull down. Even with you 100 Kers the average was 5K.
Just saying your rants about someone not being good enough because they only do 12K or whatever mean about jack and **** when that truth hits.
It's a game. We're a community. So maybe people like Tunebreaker can take a break from their high horse and instead of ridiculing other players , offer advice and kind spoken help.
Oh what the heck am I talking about this is the forums. If you couldn't make fun of the lessers some of you DPSers would never even visit.
Sorry if this is salty, but Tunebreaker has been a strait up jerk late in the thread, making uncalled for attacks at people because they don't meet his standard. Started with good ideas and turned into a jerk. shrugs. At least his kind of attitude isn't on my conscience.
THe Average was 5K.
5K.
Stop being elitist.
Peace Love and Phasers
- Hippie
Edit : Laughs at the censoring of P double Oh P
Whoa.. easy now.
Look, I know things got a bit tense between Rattler and Tune but there is no need to come along and throw more coal on the fire. People are passionate about things they care about, we all like this game and we all have our opinions and as such it's not unusual for people to sometimes but heads.
I am going to ask though, can you provide some link or something that is dated pre VIL where Bort said that the "average is 5k?" Because I am respectfully saying that it can't possibly be true. Just to put things into perspective, on the average ISA run, hangar pets alone are averaging between 8-12k. That means that if you do an ISA run, launch your pets and do nothing but tab targets and heal yourself, you can do at least 8k.
I am not denying that he said that, but I think you might have the timing skewed a bit. Back pre Delta Rising the bar was 10k DPS. 10k was considered a good amount to be sure you're helpful to your team. Since that time though.. you know how MMO's are.. power creep right? Anyway, that number has changed and today it's roughly 30k at minimum to be sure you're not being carried through content. Now, before you freak out, 30k is amazingly easy to achieve. Most people who say 'I only average 10k' really average much more and they just don't realize it. They are still using the old standard and figuring they're about average so they say they do 10k, but honestly.. It would be very very difficult to do such a small amount. In order to do 10k, you would have to purposely handicap yourself. 5k would almost be impossible without just being AFK.
Before I take a mountain of ****, I am not 'DPS shaming' anyone.. I am saying that some players are actually better then they think they are. As for the argument, Tunebreaker was not the only one being condescending in the exchange so if we're going to attack people unprovoked, lets distribute that evenly ok?
Better yet, lets just leave it alone and continue on topic of the thread.
Awesomely balanced post, as usual! I was going to piecemeal it, paragraph by paragraph, only to realize my reply would contribute little more than just agreeing with every part.
I will say, though, the 5k thingy genuinely shocked me. And I'm pretty much in unbelief about it, as it is, as you say, as good as impossible to only do that little DPS. One would have to be very competent to be able to perform so incompetently. So, I'm totally with you on this: that must have been old number Bort used.
Back in the day (somewhere in 2012, when I had just joined), I think I did about 2k, in ISA; in my new Orb Weaver. I didn't have any doffs yet, nor did I even have a properly laid-out tray yet. Then someone, in chat, said to me "You need to learn a lot, about doffs, powers, etc; you're just fighting normally." I gave them a smart-alecky reply, like "How do you propose I fight then? Abnormally?!" But after the mission, I got to thinking that maybe applying *some* effort into actually trying to understand the game wasn't perhaps all that unreasonable. And I think that's mostly where I see god-like DPS-ers come from, so often attacked/veiledly ridiculed as some sort of freaks, who are maybe able to do DPS, but don't know much else, etc. Often, as I observe it, their natural response seems to be, to just try and get a bit better yourself. "C'est le ton qui fait la musique," of course. I think we could likely all work on that, from time to time, me included; but, like I said in the example about myself, even somewhat harsh sounding words aren't always necessarilly totally unreasonable, either. As the beautiful saying goes, 'Keep what is worth keeping, and with the breath of kindness blow the rest away.'
Well based of the current ISA tables there's about 14,000 entries and of those just over 1000 are parses below 6K, so on that map alone 5K is nowhere near the average DPS.
In fact looking for the average DPS could mean quite a few different things and not all will give the same answer. The MEAN DPS score will be skewed by really high and really low scores from both ends of the tables, so it'll possibly give an incorrect reading of what a true average is. Better to use the MEDIAN DPS score as that'll be unaffected by the outliers from either ends of the table.
Just looking very roughly at the table from SCM the middle ground seems to be around 22K so i'd imagine 20-30K is a more likely average DPS for the game.
But without access to the raw data I don't think anyone can really pull a proper number out. Where would you get it from? ISA, HSE, missions?
Problem with that is that A: it's data collected by people who actually USE a parser. B: is only people who actually do STFs.
this is actually kinda important, I've used a parser once. not that long ago even, on a ship that has served me well through pretty much everything sto has to offer(on normal and advanced). not even 10k. granted I knew it wasn't gonna be breaking any records but that is a bit more terrible then I thought it was going to be.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Frankly this... dispute between me and the other guy kinda highlights a major problem in the community. Rather than trying to hash out why a build that actually has completed Korfez in the past isn't now, skip right to the attack on a player's competence and skill. Its disheartening for any player to basically get smacked down for any reason whatsoever. THAT is the kind of people I have issue with. Not the helpful DPS people who are willing to take the time to work with people... but the ones who feel the need to attack others for "not measuring up to mah standards". Especially in such a public manner as we saw here.
My thought process when it comes to in game mechanics is not to just rely on DPS alone. Build up a good foundation, and know your enemy. Prepare for anything. DPS + Knowledge = Victory. Building up those buffs for a massive Alpha Strike against something... means nothing if you get slapped with a subnuc just before you fire. And knowing which enemies use subnuc can make a difference, and thus plan accordingly.
I am willing to discuss the Korfez issue with others to try and figure out what exactly happened, but that would probably be best discussed in either PMs or a seperate thread. And I will happily share my Fleet Temporal Science Vessel build as well. (The one that doesn't care about shields mind you. Hence why three similar builds should have been able to wreck house but apparently can't scratch the Boss Ship).
When it comes to DPS building... I just want to get someone up to a level where they can at least do Advanced with a level of confidence. What they do after that... is their choice.
If he wants to attack me, or anyone else, again... we can let the Mods decide if he crossed a line. Which IMO a personal attack is, especially without asking for details and making assumptions to launch said attack. I do not appreciate being assaulted like that for what amounts to "false thinking" and "being a bad player who gives bad advice". So respectfully... I'm done and any further attacks will be asessed by the Mods.
Problem with that is that A: it's data collected by people who actually USE a parser. B: is only people who actually do STFs.
this is actually kinda important, I've used a parser once. not that long ago even, on a ship that has served me well through pretty much everything sto has to offer(on normal and advanced). not even 10k. granted I knew it wasn't gonna be breaking any records but that is a bit more terrible then I thought it was going to be.
For most things in-game it's simply a matter of how long you take to kill things. Back in LoR, I spent a lot of time tuning my Warbird builds and managed to put together a D'd build(IIRC it was an A2B FaW spam boat with a sci loadout specifically tailored to making Elachi cry) that could tank Defense of Mol'Rihan. This thing was tuned so high that I could intentionally tank the cone blasts because I knew I'd get a bunch of free hits to their forward arc afterwards.
Then after successfully doing that without dying(or was it without dying often?) I did a set of exploration cluster missions for the daily.... it was like the enemies exploded as soon as I breathed on them. For missions that were actually hard, the build was good, but for regular easy stuff it was nuclear overkill.
Frankly this... dispute between me and the other guy kinda highlights a major problem in the community. Rather than trying to hash out why a build that actually has completed Korfez in the past isn't now, skip right to the attack on a player's competence and skill. Its disheartening for any player to basically get smacked down for any reason whatsoever. THAT is the kind of people I have issue with. Not the helpful DPS people who are willing to take the time to work with people... but the ones who feel the need to attack others for "not measuring up to mah standards". Especially in such a public manner as we saw here.
My thought process when it comes to in game mechanics is not to just rely on DPS alone. Build up a good foundation, and know your enemy. Prepare for anything. DPS + Knowledge = Victory. Building up those buffs for a massive Alpha Strike against something... means nothing if you get slapped with a subnuc just before you fire. And knowing which enemies use subnuc can make a difference, and thus plan accordingly.
I am willing to discuss the Korfez issue with others to try and figure out what exactly happened, but that would probably be best discussed in either PMs or a seperate thread. And I will happily share my Fleet Temporal Science Vessel build as well. (The one that doesn't care about shields mind you. Hence why three similar builds should have been able to wreck house but apparently can't scratch the Boss Ship).
When it comes to DPS building... I just want to get someone up to a level where they can at least do Advanced with a level of confidence. What they do after that... is their choice.
If he wants to attack me, or anyone else, again... we can let the Mods decide if he crossed a line. Which IMO a personal attack is, especially without asking for details and making assumptions to launch said attack. I do not appreciate being assaulted like that for what amounts to "false thinking" and "being a bad player who gives bad advice". So respectfully... I'm done and any further attacks will be asessed by the Mods.
Can we get back to the subject at hand now?
Sooooo... you started off with a post trying to separate DPS and knowledge (as a matter of fact are still doing it now), as if they are mutually exclusive, which is simply ridiculous. First of all, you need knowledge to do high DPS. Secondly, I'm sure the majority (yes, some who are even in DPS-75k can be completely clueless outside ISA, fair enough) of high DPSers also have the knowledge to do well in all sorts of other queues.
Your next post was about how you've done 15k max, but you "got what [you] feel is some good Phaser goin' on her." which to me sounds like you're extremely content with the damage output. And you claimed it's low-to-mid tier, something I pointed out to be false. And you used the good old buzzword of "all general purpose balance build", which per my experience means "I have no clue how the game works." I've seen similar words used to describe so many ships that actually are just utterly failed attempts of building something.
I mean, what does "all general purpose balance build" even mean? In a tin, it means "I can do enough damage and survive without a tank or a healer", right? Except, 15k won't do you any good outside normal. A team of 15k-ers has a good chance of failing even ISA optional. And about survival... well yeah, DPS is tied directly to aggro, so of course you'll stay alive if you simply won't get any aggro. So if you're not actively trying to gain any aggro (which you probably aren't), being teamed with anyone doing like 30k+ means you'll get hardly ever fired at.
I've seen similar failed reasoning so many times around the game it's not even funny anymore.
So, for umpteenth time - you *need* DPS to kill enemies off in game. That's simply how the game works. You can't apply knowledge to the game and win it with ridiculously low DPS. Almost everything in game needs enemies to be dead at the end. You need some degree of "other" knowledge, I agree. But you tried to imply that most DPSers don't have that, and that's simply not true. In fact, I'm absolutely sure the opposite is true.
And as for Korfez, I explained it to you. Korfez used to be elite in name only, while actually having advanced tier enemies. Now, when it's proper elite, you simply have absolutely no chance in it with a ship doing 15k. You need ~75k DPS at minimum per player to have a chance of killing the boss ship now, due due extremely high hull regeneration and DRR ratings.
In short, you demonstrate complete lack of credibility with every post you make (namely, by first acting as if you're smarter than DPS community members, then claiming that you're proud of doing low DPS and then wondering why can't you complete an elite queue), yet you want to be taken seriously. That is why I lashed out.
Oh, and I find this part particularly hilarious, considering how the first post in this thread that discussed DPS vs knowledge was done by you. No one had brought it up before.
And now, when the convo had already cooled down and shifted back to being more on-topic of my OP, you decided to bring the dispute part up again.
Sooooo... you started off with a post trying to separate DPS and knowledge (as a matter of fact are still doing it now), as if they are mutually exclusive, which is simply ridiculous. First of all, you need knowledge to do high DPS. Secondly, I'm sure the majority (yes, some who are even in DPS-75k can be completely clueless outside ISA, fair enough) of high DPSers also have the knowledge to do well in all sorts of other queues.
I never said they are seperate. I just said that it is a PART of the game.
Your next post was about how you've done 15k max, but you "got what [you] feel is some good Phaser goin' on her." which to me sounds like you're extremely content with the damage output. And you claimed it's low-to-mid tier, something I pointed out to be false. And you used the good old buzzword of "all general purpose balance build", which per my experience means "I have no clue how the game works." I've seen similar words used to describe so many ships that actually are just utterly failed attempts of building something.
I didn't say that my Recon Destroyer DOES 15k max. I ESTIMATED since I've never been in a parse run. And general purpose build doesn't = I have no clue. It means I'm prepared for anything that gets thrown at me.
I mean, what does "all general purpose balance build" even mean? In a tin, it means "I can do enough damage and survive without a tank or a healer", right? Except, 15k won't do you any good outside normal. A team of 15k-ers has a good chance of failing even ISA optional. And about survival... well yeah, DPS is tied directly to aggro, so of course you'll stay alive if you simply won't get any aggro. So if you're not actively trying to gain any aggro (which you probably aren't), being teamed with anyone doing like 30k+ means you'll get hardly ever fired at.
I've seen similar failed reasoning so many times around the game it's not even funny anymore.
I can hold my own, and it fits my playstyle. Again... its a good foundation, and I am happy with where I am. I don't go into things I'm not comfortable with.
So, for umpteenth time - you *need* DPS to kill enemies off in game. That's simply how the game works. You can't apply knowledge to the game and win it with ridiculously low DPS. Almost everything in game needs enemies to be dead at the end. You need some degree of "other" knowledge, I agree. But you tried to imply that most DPSers don't have that, and that's simply not true. In fact, I'm absolutely sure the opposite is true.
And that's where you're assuming I'm against DPS. I never said that. I said it was a PART of a good build. Knowledge of your opponents helps as well as you'll know what to expect, what counters they could have... when NOT to shoot at something...
And as for Korfez, I explained it to you. Korfez used to be elite in name only, while actually having advanced tier enemies. Now, when it's proper elite, you simply have absolutely no chance in it with a ship doing 15k. You need ~75k DPS at minimum per player to have a chance of killing the boss ship now, due due extremely high hull regeneration and DRR ratings.
You're assuming my Science ship does the same as my cruisers. My cruisers don't do shield pen Kinetic. And again... you ignored the part where I mentioned the makeup of the group I was in. You are solely focused on me.
In short, you demonstrate complete lack of credibility with every post you make (namely, by first acting as if you're smarter than DPS community members, then claiming that you're proud of doing low DPS and then wondering why can't you complete an elite queue), yet you want to be taken seriously. That is why I lashed out.
You made a lot of assumptions and attacked me without getting details. I bring things up, and you attack me.
I never acted like I was smarter. I never said I was proud, I said I was CONTENT. And I ran Korfez on my Science character with a Megawell build, not my Tac Main in a cruiser, because I was confident in being able to beat it with a fleet group thanks to our builds. Now... something changed. And rather than discuss the situation like a rational person, you attacked me with the DPS stick. I've been level headed about this entire thing. You're the aggressor here, choosing to attack me for "false thinking".
My views on the game differ from yours obviously. I'm happy with being able to do most content comfortably, and having fun. You seem to enjoy squeezing out every last decimal point of performance. Neither approach is wrong. You have your playstyle. I have mine.
As I said in my last post... Getting up to the 10-15k range is a good foundation. What happens after is up to the player in question. Me? I'm content with being able to do most things, and I don't choose to go into Elite because I know most of my builds won't handle it so well. The only one I have some confidence in for Elite is my Sci Character's Megawell, but only if I am working with others and we are able to coordinate. Alone in a free-for-all situation like most PUGs... I'm not so confident.
You assume a lot about me without asking. Just take what I've said and attack.
I didn't say that my Recon Destroyer DOES 15k max. I ESTIMATED since I've never been in a parse run. And general purpose build doesn't = I have no clue. It means I'm prepared for anything that gets thrown at me.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if it turned out you're actually doing 75k?! You have to admit, that would be funny.
Only one way to find out, though. That's the basis of knowledge: measuring.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
edited September 2018
Oh I think I'd know if it was. lol
I loaded as much Phaser augmenting stuff as I got. Only thing that might make it better is if I had CrtD Gold beams rather than 4 Acc x3, quantum phase, and Trilithium Omni.
But at least I hit a lot.
And for the record they are mk XV. Nothing gold plated though on the weapons. Think I got lucky and got one at UR on an upgrade. And the Acc beams I actually got back when Delta Rising came out and one of the rewards for the terrible Patrol Wrappers was a MK XII purple ACCx3 phaser array. Got a full set of those things on my main.
Edit: Also running Kemocite 1 as well in case anyone is wondering on my New Orleans.
But *how* would you know?! I remember a time when the channel operators told me "You just need to try a little harder to get into 20k." LOL. Few years later, I did nearly 100k. Don't underestimate the power creep in this game! If you feel you can nearly do every current content, chances are you're doing (considerably) more than just 15k.
I never said they are seperate. I just said that it is a PART of the game.
You said "DPS+Knowledge". That's implying they are separate.
I didn't say that my Recon Destroyer DOES 15k max. I ESTIMATED since I've never been in a parse run. And general purpose build doesn't = I have no clue. It means I'm prepared for anything that gets thrown at me.
Then go and parse your Recon Destroyer please, don't throw around random estimations and then act offended that people judge you based on those estimations. And I'm talking about experience, 99% of the time when someone says they have a "general purpose" build, it's only good for being carried.
I can hold my own, and it fits my playstyle. Again... its a good foundation, and I am happy with where I am. I don't go into things I'm not comfortable with.
You claim you can hold your own, yet you *estimate* you do 15k. That's not holding your own, especially not in Korfez.
And that's where you're assuming I'm against DPS.
The tone of your posts is pretty clear.
You're assuming my Science ship does the same as my cruisers. My cruisers don't do shield pen Kinetic.
According to my experience, majority of people in game do worse in their sci builds as they do in their energy builds. A lot worse. If you're an exception (like I am), then I apologise, but considering you don't parse, I, nor you can be sure of it.
And again... you ignored the part where I mentioned the makeup of the group I was in. You are solely focused on me.
But you said you held your weight. Now you're saying "but muh team"... so you're admitting there's a chance you got carried after all?
I never acted like I was smarter.
Why was the DPS vs knowledge post even necessary then?
I never said I was proud, I said I was CONTENT.
Ok, maybe I worded it a bit uncorrectly, but let me quote you here: "MY strength isn't in power. Its in flexability and durability." That was your answer to me when I pointed out your "10-12k, 15k max" estimation is too low to be a good general purpose build, for advanced content at least. You flexibility (and durability which would mean nothing should you get most of the aggro on team like high DPSers often do) means absolutely nothing when your DPS is as low as it is.
And I ran Korfez on my Science character with a Megawell build, not my Tac Main in a cruiser, because I was confident in being able to beat it with a fleet group thanks to our builds. Now... something changed. And rather than discuss the situation like a rational person, you attacked me with the DPS stick. I've been level headed about this entire thing. You're the aggressor here, choosing to attack me for "false thinking".
And I've explained it to you several times, even in past threads IIRC that Korfez has been changed. You still complain (or fair enough, *wonder*) why you can't beat it anymore. It gets tiring to be constantly polite when your conversation partner simply can't get something through their thick skull.
My views on the game differ from yours obviously. I'm happy with being able to do most content comfortably, and having fun. You seem to enjoy squeezing out every last decimal point of performance. Neither approach is wrong. You have your playstyle. I have mine.
Oh man, the good old "if you're doing DPS, you can't be having fun" argument. Why do you think I'm playing the game then, if I'm not having fun?
As I said in my last post... Getting up to the 10-15k range is a good foundation.
It's not, not anymore. 15k was perhaps tolerable even before ViL hit, but now with mk XV items and level 65, you should definitely be aiming higher than 15k. I'd say 30k would be good number to aim for a "generalist" build.
You assume a lot about me without asking. Just take what I've said and attack.
Here, let me give you an analogy. You have a PhD in Physics and are giving a very complicated lecture... whether it'd be about dark matter, entropy, whatever. Suddenly someone raises their hand and tells you you're wrong. Or maybe not even wrong per se, but definitely off, and how their explanation to the problem is much better. And brings up something really anecdotal. When you ask what is the basis of their theory, they answer you "well, actually I'm just a poet, but I got top score in my 7th grade physics test."
This is what it feels for me to have a conversation with you, or with anyone who claims themselves they aren't actually a DPSer or doesn't do elites, but constantly feels the need to argue about it. I've spent years in the game, trying to better my performance, and have completed every elite in game. I fully understand not every player is like that, and they don't have to be. But they shouldn't constantly try to take up the discussion about it either, or feel the need to argue with players who do. One naturally feels more and more frustrated every time such episode takes place, and I've witnessed it just too many times when self-proclaimed non-DPSers feel the need to get start a discussion yet again about DPS.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
edited September 2018
Well... I don't think I nuke everything in sight in Infected Advanced. I know she mops up Japori normal pretty nicely. Have a couple issues in Beta Thoridar normal...
Other than my Vet Destroyer, the New Orleans is the only ship I actually decided to try and push the damage without sacrificing my survival. Most of my other ships are more balanced.
Got a bit of a good alpha strike with combining the Mining Drill, Quantum Phase 3 piece channeled lance, Proton Charge launcher console, and the New Orleans' console, which I can combine with a full barrage of torpedo spread 3 and kemocite 1 phasers.
I don't have issues with DPSers. I have issues with the ones who beat people over the head and call them bad because reasons.
Some people view DPS as the end all without explanation of any kind. "Oh heralds? DPS them to death! Voth? DPS! Vaadwaur? DPS!"
That doesn't tell anyone anything except "Shoot more". That's where my line about knowledge comes in. Because they all fight differently and have different abilities. There is a difference between a Voth Citadel and a Borg Tactical Cube. People who don't understand that the Citadel can make you vape yourself with their immunity reflector shield suffer from lack of knowledge.
The ONLY time I get vocal about the DPS mentality is when people rant and rave about how "you need X DPS to get on this ride" or "Tactics? I don't need Tactics. I got DPS".
I never portray myself as knowing everything or anything of the sort. I'm a casual. I don't tell people how they should play, unless their build is obviously suffering and they blow up every two seconds. Then I try and see how its set up, how it can be improved using available resources... and build that good foundation they can build on to fit their playstyle.
Will I get them to be DPS monsters? No. I know I won't. Because I'm not one either. But it can get them into a position where they can actually do SOMETHING. All without berating them and insulting them for being bad and "get gud".
10-15k is comfortable for the average Infected Advanced PUG, and most other content barring Elite. There is no magic "minimum" requirement hardcoded in that you absolutely must hit in order to do Advanced. That is generally being imposed by players. And how are players supposed to improve if they are attacked for "not measuring up" to someone's idea of average? They don't. They lose confidence and are less likely to even try because they will just get attacked again.
And frankly... you trying to find ANY fault at all to "discredit" me is proving the point that not all DPSers are willing to help anyone and will beat people down if they don't "measure up". Again... being the aggressor.
So please stop attacking me before you dig yourself into a hole... I have said nothing to warrent being assaulted, and you already got people voicing their opinions on how aggressive you're sounding.
If you want to discuss this in a civil matter, and how I could improve for the future... I'm willing to do so. But I will not sit here and be attacked for "wrong thinking".
Comments
Sadly, it;s just a shallow attempt at a fix in reality. The rewards can be had elsewhere, and often in bigger volumes so the system itself is not providing anything new or enticing.
And a lot of the endeavor missions can easily be gamed by use of easy, 2 minute Foundry maps or missions, so people aren't really playing mixed content to get the rewards either.
Would have been better with some sort of unique reward system to get people playing queues. Give out some fancy shield visuals, or costumes, or boffs. And let the items be traded so those unwilling can still buy if they wish and those willing can get a little profit of the lazier crowd.
I wouldn't say that's shallow. Its RNG.
But it does need more veriety in the Endeavor objectives. People are figuring out how to game the PvP one, which honestly isn't that much of an issue IMO. Its the fact that the "Complete a mission in the X story arc" seems to favor Dyson or Delta the most, followed by Iconian War. Shouldn't it have options for ALL story arcs? Also there are VERY FEW options when the Dyson arc comes up. Literally only 3.
So frankly I think the Endeavor System needs to have an expansion to its objective table.
And while we're at it...
Can we PLEASE get a revamp of the GPL store? I got over 2 mil GPL and nothing to spend it on! My main's already got all the trophies, and I have no interest in consumable holoemitters. GPL is literally a useless currency right now, only used for Nullifiers and a few DOff assignments. We're getting GPL coming in at a rate we could probably build the Great Pyramid of Giza with all the bars we've collected. Hell... I'm sure we could build Atlantis by now out of GPL!
I know its a little off topic but still...
Just saying your rants about someone not being good enough because they only do 12K or whatever mean about jack and TRIBBLE when that truth hits.
It's a game. We're a community. So maybe people like Tunebreaker can take a break from their high horse and instead of ridiculing other players , offer advice and kind spoken help.
Oh what the heck am I talking about this is the forums. If you couldn't make fun of the lessers some of you DPSers would never even visit.
Sorry if this is salty, but Tunebreaker has been a strait up jerk late in the thread, making uncalled for attacks at people because they don't meet his standard. Started with good ideas and turned into a jerk. shrugs. At least his kind of attitude isn't on my conscience.
THe Average was 5K.
5K.
Stop being elitist.
Peace Love and Phasers
- Hippie
Edit : Laughs at the censoring of P double Oh P
Correction. Some of you try. Some of you are actually nice people. Some people who enjoy breaking music could take some lessons in manners. Just my opinion.
Shtako just got real in this thread...
Whoa.. easy now.
Look, I know things got a bit tense between Rattler and Tune but there is no need to come along and throw more coal on the fire. People are passionate about things they care about, we all like this game and we all have our opinions and as such it's not unusual for people to sometimes but heads.
I am going to ask though, can you provide some link or something that is dated pre VIL where Bort said that the "average is 5k?" Because I am respectfully saying that it can't possibly be true. Just to put things into perspective, on the average ISA run, hangar pets alone are averaging between 8-12k. That means that if you do an ISA run, launch your pets and do nothing but tab targets and heal yourself, you can do at least 8k.
I am not denying that he said that, but I think you might have the timing skewed a bit. Back pre Delta Rising the bar was 10k DPS. 10k was considered a good amount to be sure you're helpful to your team. Since that time though.. you know how MMO's are.. power creep right? Anyway, that number has changed and today it's roughly 30k at minimum to be sure you're not being carried through content. Now, before you freak out, 30k is amazingly easy to achieve. Most people who say 'I only average 10k' really average much more and they just don't realize it. They are still using the old standard and figuring they're about average so they say they do 10k, but honestly.. It would be very very difficult to do such a small amount. In order to do 10k, you would have to purposely handicap yourself. 5k would almost be impossible without just being AFK.
Before I take a mountain of TRIBBLE, I am not 'DPS shaming' anyone.. I am saying that some players are actually better then they think they are. As for the argument, Tunebreaker was not the only one being condescending in the exchange so if we're going to attack people unprovoked, lets distribute that evenly ok?
Better yet, lets just leave it alone and continue on topic of the thread.
Have a message out to Borticus and others not on the forum to point in the right direction.
I don't remember if it was a 10Fwd Weekly or a podcast , but I will provide what I can soon as I find its location.
It's late right now. People may not be up.
Being clear , when I heard it, it shocked me to. I come in somewhere around 40K with my best toons, and I thought I was like the worst player ever because of ... well DPS talk I read here on the forums.
And again, my apologies for my saltiness, I just get triggered when people in any situation get to shaming others for not being "good enough" , I responded in that mindset. Its that I have this whole obviously false image that people in this game in general act like the friends I have in game and would prefer helping everyone become better rather than shaming those who are not. That's obviously not true. I apparently live in a happy bubble of people in this game.
Peace, Love, Joy, Phasers and Apologies for letting Defensive Hippie type words earlier.
- Hippie
Absolutely not.. 40K is a very good number.
I know it gets a little heated when people start throwing around 100k+ numbers, but please let me assure you.. no one thinks that anyone below that 'sucks.' No one thinks 40k or 30k sucks.. or even 20k. We would like to help that 20k guy if they want the help (if not, that's cool too) but none of them are terrible players.
To be clear though, this isn't even about DPS it's about the way some of these queues are structured. One of the things that's proposed to change in the OP is the use of 'waves of enemies' to create artificial time gates. Content where you cannot progress it in less then X Minutes no matter what and enemies will pour in the entire time. Changing conditions like that will greatly aid players that do lower DPS as these things are often an obstacle to players that just can't cut through the waves quick enough.
The suggestions were never about DPS, the topic just got dragged in that direction. It's about making some of the queue missions more fun and engaging and removing artificial time gates that most players like to avoid. The goal is to aid high, low and mid range DPS players alike.
-Hippie
Knowing Bort, he got his 5k average combining space and ground DPS.
And 12k *is* seriously low. You are not capable of doing any space elites and start to become even hindrance to the team in advanced. My Fleet Support Presidio (an NPC I have absolutely no control over other than when and where to spawn it) does 12k just by itself pretty often. But apparently hearing truth offends you folks...
But you know, I wouldn't care any of it if people wouldn't lecture *me* about the game. I have never DPS shamed anyone out of blue. It's always when they try to insinuate somehow that they're better than me because they do *less* DPS.
If you're fine with how you're doing and just minding your own business, more power to you. If asking politely for help, I always help. You can scroll back in my forum post history, for example, and see for yourself how I generally always tend to help others out, if they're not throwing TRIBBLE at me. But when you spout absolute BS and then have the temerity to lecture me when I correct you, then yes, you will get aggro from me.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Just out of curiosity, when whas the last post around here made by a DPS minded player with the aim to show off and making others with lower numbers look bad on purpose?
Granted, there are some in game but frankly the numbers they achive are best described as "slighly above avarage" and there is no reason on earth why they should be taken sceriously or used as examples for the whole DPS comunity in sum.
I can also assure you that if peeps in channels show a bad character for whatever reason they are left out of all good DPS parties we celebreate.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
My apology for being triggered and defensive is out there, best I can do.
Personally in multiple venues, forums, reddit, and in game chat channels, I have encountered shaming for 'not being good enough' from some members of the DPS community over the years. I fully admit at the same time there have been some who have been incredibly helpful and very kind in helping me understand DPS and how it works. It's why I feel even like I contribute at all these days. Because people helped.
And it is truly good to hear that when you guys encounter or hear of it in channels , you deal with it.
Seriously, nothing ruins a players desire to better themselves quicker than being shamed for even trying.
So , cheers and thanks to good folks I have encountered. People who shame others can pound sand far as I am concerned.
Being someone who is Shaming people is never a good look on anyone. In my opinion.
- Hippie
Alls fair mate. I understand that and seen it myself once too often.
Think the only elitism about the whole thing is the fact that the different channels do seperate a bit. Bronze is 10k while Diamond is 160k. They are supposed to give peeps an orientation as to what capabilities the respective peeps you set a team up with are likely to have. Nothing more.
Leaving players behind for PvE because they are not good enough is the sadest experience I encountered in this game. I hate that so for me personally not having to do this is the main reason to become a good DPSer. You know, the more I bring the less my team-mates have to in order to have rewarding game experience without leaving anybody out.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Lots of people don't have hangar pets. Although I do suppose it would be an easy advice to give people with very low performance..."fly a carrier, the pets will do better than you."
And yes, there has been power creep, but the content is the same as ever. Easier even, since they removed the fail conditions and keep adding content that wins itself just wait out the timer. A ship that was good enough in 2015 is still good enough. The poor difficulty curve and reward structures drawing experinced players into newb content to curbstomp everything faster than others can keep up isn't the players' fault.
Awesomely balanced post, as usual!
I will say, though, the 5k thingy genuinely shocked me. And I'm pretty much in unbelief about it, as it is, as you say, as good as impossible to only do that little DPS. One would have to be very competent to be able to perform so incompetently.
Back in the day (somewhere in 2012, when I had just joined), I think I did about 2k, in ISA; in my new Orb Weaver. I didn't have any doffs yet, nor did I even have a properly laid-out tray yet. Then someone, in chat, said to me "You need to learn a lot, about doffs, powers, etc; you're just fighting normally." I gave them a smart-alecky reply, like "How do you propose I fight then? Abnormally?!" But after the mission, I got to thinking that maybe applying *some* effort into actually trying to understand the game wasn't perhaps all that unreasonable. And I think that's mostly where I see god-like DPS-ers come from, so often attacked/veiledly ridiculed as some sort of freaks, who are maybe able to do DPS, but don't know much else, etc. Often, as I observe it, their natural response seems to be, to just try and get a bit better yourself. "C'est le ton qui fait la musique," of course. I think we could likely all work on that, from time to time, me included; but, like I said in the example about myself, even somewhat harsh sounding words aren't always necessarilly totally unreasonable, either. As the beautiful saying goes, 'Keep what is worth keeping, and with the breath of kindness blow the rest away.'
In fact looking for the average DPS could mean quite a few different things and not all will give the same answer. The MEAN DPS score will be skewed by really high and really low scores from both ends of the tables, so it'll possibly give an incorrect reading of what a true average is. Better to use the MEDIAN DPS score as that'll be unaffected by the outliers from either ends of the table.
Just looking very roughly at the table from SCM the middle ground seems to be around 22K so i'd imagine 20-30K is a more likely average DPS for the game.
But without access to the raw data I don't think anyone can really pull a proper number out. Where would you get it from? ISA, HSE, missions?
My character Tsin'xing
this is actually kinda important, I've used a parser once. not that long ago even, on a ship that has served me well through pretty much everything sto has to offer(on normal and advanced). not even 10k. granted I knew it wasn't gonna be breaking any records but that is a bit more terrible then I thought it was going to be.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
My thought process when it comes to in game mechanics is not to just rely on DPS alone. Build up a good foundation, and know your enemy. Prepare for anything. DPS + Knowledge = Victory. Building up those buffs for a massive Alpha Strike against something... means nothing if you get slapped with a subnuc just before you fire. And knowing which enemies use subnuc can make a difference, and thus plan accordingly.
I am willing to discuss the Korfez issue with others to try and figure out what exactly happened, but that would probably be best discussed in either PMs or a seperate thread. And I will happily share my Fleet Temporal Science Vessel build as well. (The one that doesn't care about shields mind you. Hence why three similar builds should have been able to wreck house but apparently can't scratch the Boss Ship).
When it comes to DPS building... I just want to get someone up to a level where they can at least do Advanced with a level of confidence. What they do after that... is their choice.
If he wants to attack me, or anyone else, again... we can let the Mods decide if he crossed a line. Which IMO a personal attack is, especially without asking for details and making assumptions to launch said attack. I do not appreciate being assaulted like that for what amounts to "false thinking" and "being a bad player who gives bad advice". So respectfully... I'm done and any further attacks will be asessed by the Mods.
Can we get back to the subject at hand now?
Then after successfully doing that without dying(or was it without dying often?) I did a set of exploration cluster missions for the daily.... it was like the enemies exploded as soon as I breathed on them. For missions that were actually hard, the build was good, but for regular easy stuff it was nuclear overkill.
My character Tsin'xing
Sooooo... you started off with a post trying to separate DPS and knowledge (as a matter of fact are still doing it now), as if they are mutually exclusive, which is simply ridiculous. First of all, you need knowledge to do high DPS. Secondly, I'm sure the majority (yes, some who are even in DPS-75k can be completely clueless outside ISA, fair enough) of high DPSers also have the knowledge to do well in all sorts of other queues.
Your next post was about how you've done 15k max, but you "got what [you] feel is some good Phaser goin' on her." which to me sounds like you're extremely content with the damage output. And you claimed it's low-to-mid tier, something I pointed out to be false. And you used the good old buzzword of "all general purpose balance build", which per my experience means "I have no clue how the game works." I've seen similar words used to describe so many ships that actually are just utterly failed attempts of building something.
I mean, what does "all general purpose balance build" even mean? In a tin, it means "I can do enough damage and survive without a tank or a healer", right? Except, 15k won't do you any good outside normal. A team of 15k-ers has a good chance of failing even ISA optional. And about survival... well yeah, DPS is tied directly to aggro, so of course you'll stay alive if you simply won't get any aggro. So if you're not actively trying to gain any aggro (which you probably aren't), being teamed with anyone doing like 30k+ means you'll get hardly ever fired at.
I've seen similar failed reasoning so many times around the game it's not even funny anymore.
So, for umpteenth time - you *need* DPS to kill enemies off in game. That's simply how the game works. You can't apply knowledge to the game and win it with ridiculously low DPS. Almost everything in game needs enemies to be dead at the end. You need some degree of "other" knowledge, I agree. But you tried to imply that most DPSers don't have that, and that's simply not true. In fact, I'm absolutely sure the opposite is true.
And as for Korfez, I explained it to you. Korfez used to be elite in name only, while actually having advanced tier enemies. Now, when it's proper elite, you simply have absolutely no chance in it with a ship doing 15k. You need ~75k DPS at minimum per player to have a chance of killing the boss ship now, due due extremely high hull regeneration and DRR ratings.
In short, you demonstrate complete lack of credibility with every post you make (namely, by first acting as if you're smarter than DPS community members, then claiming that you're proud of doing low DPS and then wondering why can't you complete an elite queue), yet you want to be taken seriously. That is why I lashed out.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Oh, and I find this part particularly hilarious, considering how the first post in this thread that discussed DPS vs knowledge was done by you. No one had brought it up before.
And now, when the convo had already cooled down and shifted back to being more on-topic of my OP, you decided to bring the dispute part up again.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I never said they are seperate. I just said that it is a PART of the game.
I didn't say that my Recon Destroyer DOES 15k max. I ESTIMATED since I've never been in a parse run. And general purpose build doesn't = I have no clue. It means I'm prepared for anything that gets thrown at me.
I can hold my own, and it fits my playstyle. Again... its a good foundation, and I am happy with where I am. I don't go into things I'm not comfortable with.
And that's where you're assuming I'm against DPS. I never said that. I said it was a PART of a good build. Knowledge of your opponents helps as well as you'll know what to expect, what counters they could have... when NOT to shoot at something...
You're assuming my Science ship does the same as my cruisers. My cruisers don't do shield pen Kinetic. And again... you ignored the part where I mentioned the makeup of the group I was in. You are solely focused on me.
You made a lot of assumptions and attacked me without getting details. I bring things up, and you attack me.
I never acted like I was smarter. I never said I was proud, I said I was CONTENT. And I ran Korfez on my Science character with a Megawell build, not my Tac Main in a cruiser, because I was confident in being able to beat it with a fleet group thanks to our builds. Now... something changed. And rather than discuss the situation like a rational person, you attacked me with the DPS stick. I've been level headed about this entire thing. You're the aggressor here, choosing to attack me for "false thinking".
My views on the game differ from yours obviously. I'm happy with being able to do most content comfortably, and having fun. You seem to enjoy squeezing out every last decimal point of performance. Neither approach is wrong. You have your playstyle. I have mine.
As I said in my last post... Getting up to the 10-15k range is a good foundation. What happens after is up to the player in question. Me? I'm content with being able to do most things, and I don't choose to go into Elite because I know most of my builds won't handle it so well. The only one I have some confidence in for Elite is my Sci Character's Megawell, but only if I am working with others and we are able to coordinate. Alone in a free-for-all situation like most PUGs... I'm not so confident.
You assume a lot about me without asking. Just take what I've said and attack.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if it turned out you're actually doing 75k?!
Only one way to find out, though. That's the basis of knowledge: measuring.
...Huh... I thought we already had!?
I loaded as much Phaser augmenting stuff as I got. Only thing that might make it better is if I had CrtD Gold beams rather than 4 Acc x3, quantum phase, and Trilithium Omni.
But at least I hit a lot.
And for the record they are mk XV. Nothing gold plated though on the weapons. Think I got lucky and got one at UR on an upgrade. And the Acc beams I actually got back when Delta Rising came out and one of the rewards for the terrible Patrol Wrappers was a MK XII purple ACCx3 phaser array. Got a full set of those things on my main.
Edit: Also running Kemocite 1 as well in case anyone is wondering on my New Orleans.
But *how* would you know?! I remember a time when the channel operators told me "You just need to try a little harder to get into 20k." LOL. Few years later, I did nearly 100k. Don't underestimate the power creep in this game! If you feel you can nearly do every current content, chances are you're doing (considerably) more than just 15k.
Then go and parse your Recon Destroyer please, don't throw around random estimations and then act offended that people judge you based on those estimations. And I'm talking about experience, 99% of the time when someone says they have a "general purpose" build, it's only good for being carried.
You claim you can hold your own, yet you *estimate* you do 15k. That's not holding your own, especially not in Korfez.
The tone of your posts is pretty clear.
According to my experience, majority of people in game do worse in their sci builds as they do in their energy builds. A lot worse. If you're an exception (like I am), then I apologise, but considering you don't parse, I, nor you can be sure of it. But you said you held your weight. Now you're saying "but muh team"... so you're admitting there's a chance you got carried after all?
Why was the DPS vs knowledge post even necessary then?
Ok, maybe I worded it a bit uncorrectly, but let me quote you here: "MY strength isn't in power. Its in flexability and durability." That was your answer to me when I pointed out your "10-12k, 15k max" estimation is too low to be a good general purpose build, for advanced content at least. You flexibility (and durability which would mean nothing should you get most of the aggro on team like high DPSers often do) means absolutely nothing when your DPS is as low as it is.
And I've explained it to you several times, even in past threads IIRC that Korfez has been changed. You still complain (or fair enough, *wonder*) why you can't beat it anymore. It gets tiring to be constantly polite when your conversation partner simply can't get something through their thick skull.
Oh man, the good old "if you're doing DPS, you can't be having fun" argument. Why do you think I'm playing the game then, if I'm not having fun?
It's not, not anymore. 15k was perhaps tolerable even before ViL hit, but now with mk XV items and level 65, you should definitely be aiming higher than 15k. I'd say 30k would be good number to aim for a "generalist" build.
Here, let me give you an analogy. You have a PhD in Physics and are giving a very complicated lecture... whether it'd be about dark matter, entropy, whatever. Suddenly someone raises their hand and tells you you're wrong. Or maybe not even wrong per se, but definitely off, and how their explanation to the problem is much better. And brings up something really anecdotal. When you ask what is the basis of their theory, they answer you "well, actually I'm just a poet, but I got top score in my 7th grade physics test."
This is what it feels for me to have a conversation with you, or with anyone who claims themselves they aren't actually a DPSer or doesn't do elites, but constantly feels the need to argue about it. I've spent years in the game, trying to better my performance, and have completed every elite in game. I fully understand not every player is like that, and they don't have to be. But they shouldn't constantly try to take up the discussion about it either, or feel the need to argue with players who do. One naturally feels more and more frustrated every time such episode takes place, and I've witnessed it just too many times when self-proclaimed non-DPSers feel the need to get start a discussion yet again about DPS.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Other than my Vet Destroyer, the New Orleans is the only ship I actually decided to try and push the damage without sacrificing my survival. Most of my other ships are more balanced.
Got a bit of a good alpha strike with combining the Mining Drill, Quantum Phase 3 piece channeled lance, Proton Charge launcher console, and the New Orleans' console, which I can combine with a full barrage of torpedo spread 3 and kemocite 1 phasers.
I don't have issues with DPSers. I have issues with the ones who beat people over the head and call them bad because reasons.
Some people view DPS as the end all without explanation of any kind. "Oh heralds? DPS them to death! Voth? DPS! Vaadwaur? DPS!"
That doesn't tell anyone anything except "Shoot more". That's where my line about knowledge comes in. Because they all fight differently and have different abilities. There is a difference between a Voth Citadel and a Borg Tactical Cube. People who don't understand that the Citadel can make you vape yourself with their immunity reflector shield suffer from lack of knowledge.
The ONLY time I get vocal about the DPS mentality is when people rant and rave about how "you need X DPS to get on this ride" or "Tactics? I don't need Tactics. I got DPS".
I never portray myself as knowing everything or anything of the sort. I'm a casual. I don't tell people how they should play, unless their build is obviously suffering and they blow up every two seconds. Then I try and see how its set up, how it can be improved using available resources... and build that good foundation they can build on to fit their playstyle.
Will I get them to be DPS monsters? No. I know I won't. Because I'm not one either. But it can get them into a position where they can actually do SOMETHING. All without berating them and insulting them for being bad and "get gud".
10-15k is comfortable for the average Infected Advanced PUG, and most other content barring Elite. There is no magic "minimum" requirement hardcoded in that you absolutely must hit in order to do Advanced. That is generally being imposed by players. And how are players supposed to improve if they are attacked for "not measuring up" to someone's idea of average? They don't. They lose confidence and are less likely to even try because they will just get attacked again.
And frankly... you trying to find ANY fault at all to "discredit" me is proving the point that not all DPSers are willing to help anyone and will beat people down if they don't "measure up". Again... being the aggressor.
So please stop attacking me before you dig yourself into a hole... I have said nothing to warrent being assaulted, and you already got people voicing their opinions on how aggressive you're sounding.
If you want to discuss this in a civil matter, and how I could improve for the future... I'm willing to do so. But I will not sit here and be attacked for "wrong thinking".