We've kicked things around for years. Most revolve around the reward payout.
What sounds more rewarding? Around 75-100 marks for 2-3 minutes of Infected Advanced? Or 25 marks for 15 minutes of Azure Nebula Rescue?
So if azure would pay out up to 300-400 marks and would not have this completely braindead RNG condition where the game either assigns T5 scims or T1 scouts giving you a reasonable perspective or non at all you think it would get more peeps to play it?
I have my doubts! Do it for romulan marks? No! During mark weekends rhi station advanced hands out similar rewards already and it does not pop either in public. I need to mobilize half a dozen chats to get a team for it even then.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
I was just using Azure as an example of the payout disparity, as I can remember how bad it is for 15 minutes of work. I'd use another STF that is actually fun but doesn't pop much if I could remember how much it pays out.
So like I said... what sounds more rewarding?
75-100 for a 3-4 minute run?
Or 25 for a 15 minute run?
they see the content as a chore and they only do it to get the reward and move on to something they enjoy.
I singled out this, since... what is it that the players enjoy, then? Fair enough, there are battlezones as you mentioned, but I would guess there are not many who would consider that as their ultimate endgame. PvP is non-existant. Storyline missions get repetitive after some playthroughs.
Then there's space barbie as so many ppl mention, which is just WTF - are there seriously anyone who consider staring at the tailor screen for 24/7 to be a good use of their time? Sure, I completely understand looking good is extremely important for big chunk of players, but that's not the only thing most folks, even space barbie enthusiasts, do in game, is it? As I understand it, they want to look good in action. If they aren't interested in, well, actual gameplay, then depending on where their thoughts at staring the tailor are on (N)SFW scale, I'd rather suggest all of them to either play Sims or look up some rule 34 material.
Then I guess there's exchange watching, which is really mostly done as a means to get EC and gear themselves up for better combat performance. Sure, I understand there are some folks who do absolutely nothing but exchange duty, apparently not wanting to risk their actual assets on stock exchange or anything and need to do it all in STO, but they are again an incredibly tiny minority.
And well, then I guess there are also people who just do admirality, doffing and log off again. Also, can't imagine how that could be very enjoyable.
None of these suggestions will significantly increase the number of players in your public queues.
That's speculation, something you seem to be awfully sure of. And yes, if we're talking about the unfortunate case where player hates queued content altogether, my proposed changes won't help anything. But, again, I believe those people to be in minority, simply because I can't see there's much else to do in game. However, I chatted with various people, and they all confirmed that they would queue up more often to queues they currently avoid if Cryptic would make them less tedious.
Another extremely annoying feature is how either being shot at or shooting yourself completely breaks almost every interaction
So much this. I hope this gets dev attention, because I agree with much of what you said. From chatting with fleeties and friends, these are not unpopular opinions either.
I would add, the formula for success of GTFOs and STFOs is:
Increase rewards.
Remove annoying interaction interrupters.
Ease off the time gates, at least add some non-combat thing to do while waiting. (I'm thinking fallback to x,y position, or reconfigure defense satellite, launch surveillance probe, et al.)
Cut scenes! OMG cut scenes. Why do you do that, right when I'm about to make my final crushing blow? I don't even care if I spawn freshly healed, with all skills reset and ready to go, that interruption hurt my feelings.
Most importantly though, and I know I'm repeating myself but it needs to be said again, and again; Increase Rewards. (while you're at it, how about a 10k Dil refinement cap? if you do this I'll send Dominos with lunch for the STO dev team, and make the Klingons pay for it.)
I was just using Azure as an example of the payout disparity, as I can remember how bad it is for 15 minutes of work. I'd use another STF that is actually fun but doesn't pop much if I could remember how much it pays out.
So like I said... what sounds more rewarding?
75-100 for a 3-4 minute run?
Or 25 for a 15 minute run?
I can help you with that. Viscous Cycle, despite being a well-made queue (imo) without any significant timegates, pops incredibly rarely. Sure, part of it can be explained by many players not liking the fluidic space effect, and the fact that Gekli can still bug out, but also UAA exists and it is much more rewarding for similar amount of time. Think VCE paid like ~40 marks, compared to what, 200+ from UAA?
So indeed, as I said before too, rewards play a part of why some queues don't pop, but what I'm trying to say with my thread, and Pete with his post, that it's definitely not the only factor.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
I know that. They added that in BECAUSE players complained. Frankly they should change it so its not triggered by the first player, but say... the third. That way its not dominated by speed demons and giving people the excuse of "Its only meant for a single, fast player". Gives people something to do.
I was just using Azure as an example of the payout disparity, as I can remember how bad it is for 15 minutes of work. I'd use another STF that is actually fun but doesn't pop much if I could remember how much it pays out.
So like I said... what sounds more rewarding?
75-100 for a 3-4 minute run?
Or 25 for a 15 minute run?
And I was just jumping at your example cuz it highlights perfectly why the situation is so desolate!
You want me to say that every map, no matter how bad it is designed has its price? Yea sure it does! I mean look at mirror invasion event where dozen or hundreds of players endure it afk to grab marks and dil.
The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content?
Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests.
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The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content?
Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests.
Agreed.
The most important thing is that the content is actually fun. Sure, there will be people that play the content because they need the rewards and that's fine.. but the question is, is that all Cryptic wants from these missions? For people to play them until they no longer have to and then never touch them again? Eventually, players are going to get the number of rewards they're after, at that point.. what keeps them playing?
I am one of the ones speaking from the other side.. players that don't need the rewards, they are just looking for content that's fun. I run these queues almost every weekend even though I have nothing left to gain from them.. why? because I play a game to have fun. I like to run missions with my fleet, they're a great bunch and I enjoy playing with them. Usually none of us need the reward, what we need is fun and engaging content. We need missions that aren't just a pointless time gate where we sit around waiting for things to happen.
I am totally on board with balancing rewards so that players that need those rewards get into the queues, it just doesn't stop there. It's a combination of both, giving people high payout for content that isn't fun is what makes it feel like 'a grind.' The goal should be not only to get players into the queues, but keep them in them on a regular basis.
Insert witty signature line here.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
And I was just jumping at your example cuz it highlights perfectly why the situation is so desolate!
You want me to say that every map, no matter how bad it is designed has its price? Yea sure it does! I mean look at mirror incursion where dozen or hundreds of players endure it afk to grab marks and dil.
The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content?
Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests.
I wasn't saying anything like that. I was highlighting the one big contributor to the problem. Reward Payout. I won't deny some of the older STFs need some work to make them more fun. Azura Nebula being one of them. But as it stands now... quick payout trumps all. Until that is addressed, there is no incentive to play anything else, even if it is revamped.
And I was just jumping at your example cuz it highlights perfectly why the situation is so desolate!
You want me to say that every map, no matter how bad it is designed has its price? Yea sure it does! I mean look at mirror incursion where dozen or hundreds of players endure it afk to grab marks and dil.
The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content?
Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests.
I wasn't saying anything like that. I was highlighting the one big contributor to the problem. Reward Payout. I won't deny some of the older STFs need some work to make them more fun. Azura Nebula being one of them. But as it stands now... quick payout trumps all. Until that is addressed, there is no incentive to play anything else, even if it is revamped.
Yet people are totally happy playing HSE for hours straight, warping out before scanning the escape pods. Thus not getting any rewards at all, but escaping the 30min CD to play the same mission again and again.
And I was just jumping at your example cuz it highlights perfectly why the situation is so desolate!
You want me to say that every map, no matter how bad it is designed has its price? Yea sure it does! I mean look at mirror incursion where dozen or hundreds of players endure it afk to grab marks and dil.
The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content?
Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests.
I wasn't saying anything like that. I was highlighting the one big contributor to the problem. Reward Payout. I won't deny some of the older STFs need some work to make them more fun. Azura Nebula being one of them. But as it stands now... quick payout trumps all. Until that is addressed, there is no incentive to play anything else, even if it is revamped.
Yet people are totally happy playing HSE for hours straight, warping out before scanning the escape pods. Thus not getting any rewards at all, but escaping the 30min CD to play the same mission again and again.
Guilty as charged!
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But as it stands now... quick payout trumps all. Until that is addressed, there is no incentive to play anything else, even if it is revamped.
You're not wrong, payout is probably the biggest motivator. While what you say is true though, we're simply stating that it's only part of the issue. Players will eventually get to the point where they have the gear/marks/whatever they need.. unless they're just playing for Dilithium.
I think the answer to the problem is a combination of normalizing rewards and making content less obstructive to the player. Popular queues like ISA and CCA both do this.. they're quick and painless and they reward well for your time. The first step is removing the constraints like what Tunebreaker posted in the original post, but yes.. you also need to look at rewards. Even if you make a queue fun, but still have paltry rewards you're only going to appeal to the players that don't need the rewards.
If the goal is to make the content more appealing on a global level then yes.. you have to normalize reward/time ratio on top of making the changes to the queues. Doing one without the other only addresses part of the problem.
they see the content as a chore and they only do it to get the reward and move on to something they enjoy.
I singled out this, since... what is it that the players enjoy, then? Fair enough, there are battlezones as you mentioned, but I would guess there are not many who would consider that as their ultimate endgame. PvP is non-existant. Storyline missions get repetitive after some playthroughs.
Then there's space barbie as so many ppl mention, which is just WTF - are there seriously anyone who consider staring at the tailor screen for 24/7 to be a good use of their time? Sure, I completely understand looking good is extremely important for big chunk of players, but that's not the only thing most folks, even space barbie enthusiasts, do in game, is it? As I understand it, they want to look good in action. If they aren't interested in, well, actual gameplay, then depending on where their thoughts at staring the tailor are on (N)SFW scale, I'd rather suggest all of them to either play Sims or look up some rule 34 material.
Then I guess there's exchange watching, which is really mostly done as a means to get EC and gear themselves up for better combat performance. Sure, I understand there are some folks who do absolutely nothing but exchange duty, apparently not wanting to risk their actual assets on stock exchange or anything and need to do it all in STO, but they are again an incredibly tiny minority.
And well, then I guess there are also people who just do admirality, doffing and log off again. Also, can't imagine how that could be very enjoyable.
Different people like different things. If you can't imagine that, I can't imagine you doing better job at game design than the professionals at Cryptic. You shouldn't just assume you're the majority here, either.
As far as I'm concerned, everything gets repetitive after some playthroughs and the only reason to repeat content is to claim some reward or achievement. For all I do want STO to give me that reason, it doesn't.
And yes, I totally do think customizing characters, trading and doing Admiralty are all better uses of my time than repeating "actual gameplay" for generic rewards I don't need.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
Infected Advanced used to be the end all DPS Measuring stick. Which frankly is a bit of a bad example because it is totally dependant on how well you and your team perform and synergize. Five people running AP Beta will naturally perform better than only one person running AP Beta.
30k DPS in Infected is just 30k DPS in Infected. Doesn't mean you will get that same result in other places. Certainly not Japori because you don't have 4 others to help boost your numbers.
Infected is not the end all measuring stick IMO. While it DOES give you an idea of how well your ship performs... it should not be used as the end all final verdict on effectiveness. While I agree that about 10k in Infected means your build is good for most content... it shouldn't be the one driving force to boost your numbers in one single map. Because lets face it... 10k against Borg alone may not translate to 10k against the Hirogen or Iconians. You need to be flexable because we're not just fighting Borg. Its a good foundation... but its not the whole building.
I disagree completely about time-gates. They are necessary to explain things such as 'time of arrival', for example in Mirror Invasion. Killing X amount may be fine and well, but you can't change a ToA when you are expecting a train can you?? However, they should also bring in failure condition for queues such as Mirror Invasion....if that station hits zero at any difficulty, it should go NOVA (and it will also teach AFK'ers a lesson!)
Apart from the aggro problem, I think you are talking about something different here, Time gates may easily be justified story wise - arrival of the cavalry, somebody working on a console in oh so many missions, but they make for a bad mechanic if what you're doing during this timegate doesn't matter, or only in an insignificant way. And no, the way "Home" does it is not the ideal solution for me either.
However, it is a problem of almost all games, and MMOs even more so. If you have abilities with gaps as they are in STO you will almost always encounter the problems we've seen in CCA or other queues: some players will solo them in a minute (or another comparatively laughable timeframe), some teams will struggle to meet the limit, and if "good" and "bad" players mix one side will be unhappy because they have to carry the team and the other will be unhappy because they cannot contribute. (Obviously not true for all players, some don't care about the team and just do their stuff, some will be happy to get their quick marks because of a super teammate, but for many.)
One solution in improving content may be to include content that isn't simple shoot 'em up. And some missions do so. And many players are completely out of their league when they have to do so because they don't RTFM and will just fly around and shoot enemies to no avail.
So yeah, the problem is obvious, and I do think the devs are very aware of that. But I very much doubt that there is some clear cut solution making everybody, or at least a vast majority, happy.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
One solution in improving content may be to include content that isn't simple shoot 'em up. And some missions do so. And many players are completely out of their league when they have to do so because they don't RTFM and will just fly around and shoot enemies to no avail.
Reminds me of a run I had in the competative Ground STF. I like that one because of the puzzles. But I had one run where my team didn't even get past the Invisible Floor puzzle because no one understood that shooting the infinitely spawning enemies wasn't going to get us across. So there I was... standing on an invisible walkway... with my team shooting infinitely spawning enemies on the opposite side of the chasm.
Which brings up another issue with STO. Communication. Due to the pace of battle... we hardly have time to coordinate via text chat. And when I actually used in game voice (when it worked) it was rare to get anyone else who used it. Its basically assume everyone knows their job, go forth, and shoot. If someone doesn't, then either protest by AFK, straight up leave the STF, or berate them for the duration of the STF because they don't measure up to a percieved standard. No tips on how to improve or tips on how to do the STF.
Communication in STFs is virturally non existant. Any that does happen is limited by the pace of battle or other factors such as language barrier or rage level. Its rare to even get a GG anymore at the end. And I usually respond to GGs. Its more common to see a parse in Infected than a GG.
I can generally handle defense pretty well in Kitomer Space Advanced. But I am also willing to help someone that needs help on the other side of the map if I got an opening. Rather than trying and failing... calling for help could mean the difference on the optional. But again... pace of battle and other factors mean communication is non existant.
Different people like different things. If you can't imagine that, I can't imagine you doing better job at game design than the professionals at Cryptic.
Which is why I haven't applied to work there. Also, lol at "professionals" at Cryptic.
You shouldn't just assume you're the majority here, either.
Given how popular topic queues seem to be everywhere, I have fair reason to believe that PvE-enjoying people are at least a very sizable group of playerbase.
Infected Advanced used to be the end all DPS Measuring stick. Which frankly is a bit of a bad example because it is totally dependant on how well you and your team perform and synergize. Five people running AP Beta will naturally perform better than only one person running AP Beta.
30k DPS in Infected is just 30k DPS in Infected. Doesn't mean you will get that same result in other places. Certainly not Japori because you don't have 4 others to help boost your numbers.
Infected is not the end all measuring stick IMO. While it DOES give you an idea of how well your ship performs... it should not be used as the end all final verdict on effectiveness. While I agree that about 10k in Infected means your build is good for most content... it shouldn't be the one driving force to boost your numbers in one single map. Because lets face it... 10k against Borg alone may not translate to 10k against the Hirogen or Iconians. You need to be flexable because we're not just fighting Borg. Its a good foundation... but its not the whole building.
While it's true that X number in Infected is just indicative of X number in Infected, it still is the second best map to give impression of player's overall *damage* capabilities, just behind HSE. If someone does reasonably high score (say, 75k+) in ISA (although, again, HSE is even better for that), and didn't try to game the system in process (gate doping, using mechanics that were nerfed last thursday etc), you can be fairly sure that person can also hold the damage requirement of the elites in game, provided they are flying the same ship. Of course, said person can be absolutely clueless when it comes to dealing with other objectives, or their mission-specific positioning can be severely lacking, but that's a different topic altogether. As far as firepower is concerned, they will be ready.
Yet people are totally happy playing HSE for hours straight, warping out before scanning the escape pods. Thus not getting any rewards at all, but escaping the 30min CD to play the same mission again and again.
HSE is the weird exception because of its use for DPSwank. However, by the very nature of DPSwank, only a single chosen map will become the preferred masturbatorium.
Such posts really give me a good laugh, for that I thank you.
Nevertheless I must admit that they leave one with a sad, well pathetic off-taste. I mean if a group of players in a videogame get fun out of doing whatever they are doing how big must one’s own dissatisfaction there be that it has to be commented in a way only disoriented twelve year old would do before their first sexual experience?
Whatever you do in STO that makes you happy I probably don’t care enough about cuz I’m too busy and enthusiastic with my thing you know. Still, if you have found something fun or worth doing I respect that and I’m even happy for you to some extent. It would never occur to me to bad mouth it one way or the other.
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Infected Advanced used to be the end all DPS Measuring stick. Which frankly is a bit of a bad example because it is totally dependant on how well you and your team perform and synergize. Five people running AP Beta will naturally perform better than only one person running AP Beta.
30k DPS in Infected is just 30k DPS in Infected. Doesn't mean you will get that same result in other places. Certainly not Japori because you don't have 4 others to help boost your numbers.
Infected is not the end all measuring stick IMO. While it DOES give you an idea of how well your ship performs... it should not be used as the end all final verdict on effectiveness. While I agree that about 10k in Infected means your build is good for most content... it shouldn't be the one driving force to boost your numbers in one single map. Because lets face it... 10k against Borg alone may not translate to 10k against the Hirogen or Iconians. You need to be flexable because we're not just fighting Borg. Its a good foundation... but its not the whole building.
At first I thought about to dismiss and tag your post as off topic but then decided that this would not be me.
Thing is the DPS community does not “require” your understanding, you know? It consists of literary thousands of players with hundreds of them being active and in agreement, in one way or the other, to do what they do.
Instead of developing some bizarre relationship with ISA like Steve or Reyan have a habit of doing why not take the initiative and identify a map or activity you like to pursue and thrive upon it? You could make your own channels, leagues, third party tools and whatever for things like Japori patrol or whatever it is in STO that thrills you and motivate other players to join you.
I know I know, such stuff is really not easy and latest attempts we had with the colony sim channels even show how tough it gets to keep peeps interested once the reward demand is over or when bad leadership skills surface.
The way I see it you are either in a minority here with your opinion or you would have found a way to not care about what it is that keep players being obsessed with ISA while you are not or somehow are as well but puzzeled about it...
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Content itself is very shallow. What i mean is that nearly everything is about "kill X number of baddies to progress" and there's little reason to not play for the heaviest hitting ship build you can. It forces the players down a very limited road of choices really because little point to support builds or debuffers etc in the majority of play when just loading up with BFAW or CSV or whatever latest meta damage build will do everything anyway. Sure at elite things like support do help but for 99% of content they are no use and you feel like a drag on the team or are send pm's telling you you;re a leech.
As a team player and someone who thrives on support roles let it be de-buffer, healer, crowd controller or even tanks as much (or even more) than on his DPS builds I agree with you.
I think that tunebreaker tried to be as realistic with his ideas as it gets. It’s a suggestion of minimum effort for cryptic with maximum impact on the enjoyment of PvE for the player base.
Cryptic will not change the game for what it is because they can’t.
If they should try is most likely another discussion but as things are now players are at least free. They can beat the content however they like. Sure DPS is a direct approach to do good everywhere in game but the moment they want to do great or even exceptional they will find themselves in teams where support roles are highly useful or even mandatory.
Take me; I’m proud for being in top 10 of the DPS charts by now. Still not as remotely proud as I am as to have helped three others to get there as well with my support build.
Nothing stops you from identifying what support is needed in PvE to do great and offer it to the right players.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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But the OP suggestions for each queue listed are mostly just ways top get the queues to progress faster, so it looks like more than anything time is the biggest issue here.
So are people unhappy with queues and not playing them because they take too long? Or is it just that they enjoy the queues taking however long they take, but dislike the feeling of fake timegates being added to slow them up.
Me personally I don't really care if a mission take 15 mins, in fact i'd rather it did take that long to give me a chance to actually fly my ship. Sub-2 min runs are really not all that fun when it often takes up to 10 mins to form the team. I want to be playing the actual missions not just queuing up and then it last 30 secs, 2 mins etc. Never really understood the drive with some to have everything be over instantly.
I'd argue that the length of time a queue takes should not really mater IF the players don't notice how long it's taking. So a queue with varied content and stages, challenging but not repetitive combat, maybe some alternative strategy mixed in; maybe that would all create a mission where you don;t really notice it took you 15 mins to play through.
One mission that comes to mind is the Miner Instabilities queue, which is actually pretty decent for most players even on elite level. It's got a timegate right at the first stage, but you generally don't notice it. Then after that you have a variety of options from different routes, sneaking up on enemies, going it all guns blazing etc. Then the final stage is pretty hectic and you don';t really notice how long it takes as the NPC you protect moves around a lot and there's constant action.
If they can manage that for one mission why not create similar content for space.
Such posts really give me a good laugh, for that I thank you.
Nevertheless I must admit that they leave one with a sad, well pathetic off-taste. I mean if a group of players in a videogame get fun out of doing whatever they are doing how big must one’s own dissatisfaction there be that it has to be commented in a way only disoriented twelve year old would do before their first sexual experience?
You assume dissatisfaction where none exists. I'm just describing what I see: An ultimately purposeless act performed purely for personal gratification; a masturbatory exercise. I'm not expressing any particular personal approval or disapproval thereof. I just see it as a pursuit that has gone beyond building an effective ship to farm content with, and into the realm of racking up bigger numbers that are increasingly disconnected from reality. It's no longer DPS as a means to an end. It's DPS for DPS's sake: DPSwank. Somehow, I doubt 12 year olds can properly appreciate the metaphor.
Also, FUN IS A FILTHY PARASITE.
Lol yep and all the enthusiasm you put into it makes you all more believable. I get your sense of humor.
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But the OP suggestions for each queue listed are mostly just ways top get the queues to progress faster, so it looks like more than anything time is the biggest issue here.
So are people unhappy with queues and not playing them because they take too long? Or is it just that they enjoy the queues taking however long they take, but dislike the feeling of fake timegates being added to slow them up.
Me personally I don't really care if a mission take 15 mins, in fact i'd rather it did take that long to give me a chance to actually fly my ship. Sub-2 min runs are really not all that fun when it often takes up to 10 mins to form the team. I want to be playing the actual missions not just queuing up and then it last 30 secs, 2 mins etc. Never really understood the drive with some to have everything be over instantly.
I'd argue that the length of time a queue takes should not really mater IF the players don't notice how long it's taking. So a queue with varied content and stages, challenging but not repetitive combat, maybe some alternative strategy mixed in; maybe that would all create a mission where you don;t really notice it took you 15 mins to play through.
One mission that comes to mind is the Miner Instabilities queue, which is actually pretty decent for most players even on elite level. It's got a timegate right at the first stage, but you generally don't notice it. Then after that you have a variety of options from different routes, sneaking up on enemies, going it all guns blazing etc. Then the final stage is pretty hectic and you don';t really notice how long it takes as the NPC you protect moves around a lot and there's constant action.
If they can manage that for one mission why not create similar content for space.
Perhaps it’s far less complicated that one would think. We have popular queues and less popular queues.
Instead of releasing more and more unpopular queues perhaps it’s time to take orientation from what gets appreciated and played (despite its age) and adjust the newer, unpopular content accordingly.
That is what the OPs suggestion aim at, step by step. Peeps always loved ISA, back at the day where it took 10-15 mins and now where it only takes 2. There must be a reason and it cant be that hard to figure it out.
Even though not obvious pug choices UAA and TFA/E get played a lot in premades and pop far more often in public as well compared to the maps tunebreaker points out. I doubt many players would mind longer than 2 minute engagements if a map has a encouraging line of conclusion. Hardly any artificial time gates there, and those few that are in are not annoying as they are respectfully integrated into the tasks at hand.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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I started back when the game went F2P, back then the best gear in game was the stuff you got from running the Borg STFs, so you had no choice but to run them if you wanted that gear.
That isn't the case anymore, not only is there no "best gear in game" anymore, there is also so much mission, crafted, lockbox and fleet gear, that you don't even need the rep gear to be competitive.
Same goes for dillithium, back then the STFs were the best place to get it, which is why so many ppl used to b*tch and moan on the forums about AFKers.
Now there are plenty of ways to get your 8K, and that's without going near Admiralty.
Add in that most newish players are here because it's Star Trek, and for many it's probably thier first MMO, as a result they don't have the typical "endgame = raids" mentality that most MMO vets do.
As a result there are fewer and fewer reasons to play them for most non vets.
As for me I haven't played a single STF or RA since I started, as an MMO vet I've ran into the same type of A-holes in most of the MMO I've played, you know the kind, those that get their "fun & kicks" out of ruining every one elses fun. So when STO went F2P I made the decision not to play any group content, and I haven't regretted it once, yes completing some reps can be a PITFA, I also don't have much in the way of rep gear, but as I posted above you don't really need it.
Or is it just that they enjoy the queues taking however long they take, but dislike the feeling of fake timegates being added to slow them up.
Exactly. It's fine if mission is long because there's lot to do, or you face strong enemies. But if the queue has to be 7 minutes long for no other reason than Cryptic said so and slapped a 7min obligatory timer on it, it becomes ridiculous. Player skills differ, for some, completing the objectives might indeed take 7 minutes, and that's completely fine. But if some other group is better and would be able to complete the same objective in 4 minutes, then good mission design lets them.
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So if azure would pay out up to 300-400 marks and would not have this completely braindead RNG condition where the game either assigns T5 scims or T1 scouts giving you a reasonable perspective or non at all you think it would get more peeps to play it?
I have my doubts! Do it for romulan marks? No! During mark weekends rhi station advanced hands out similar rewards already and it does not pop either in public. I need to mobilize half a dozen chats to get a team for it even then.
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So like I said... what sounds more rewarding?
75-100 for a 3-4 minute run?
Or 25 for a 15 minute run?
I singled out this, since... what is it that the players enjoy, then? Fair enough, there are battlezones as you mentioned, but I would guess there are not many who would consider that as their ultimate endgame. PvP is non-existant. Storyline missions get repetitive after some playthroughs.
Then there's space barbie as so many ppl mention, which is just WTF - are there seriously anyone who consider staring at the tailor screen for 24/7 to be a good use of their time? Sure, I completely understand looking good is extremely important for big chunk of players, but that's not the only thing most folks, even space barbie enthusiasts, do in game, is it? As I understand it, they want to look good in action. If they aren't interested in, well, actual gameplay, then depending on where their thoughts at staring the tailor are on (N)SFW scale, I'd rather suggest all of them to either play Sims or look up some rule 34 material.
Then I guess there's exchange watching, which is really mostly done as a means to get EC and gear themselves up for better combat performance. Sure, I understand there are some folks who do absolutely nothing but exchange duty, apparently not wanting to risk their actual assets on stock exchange or anything and need to do it all in STO, but they are again an incredibly tiny minority.
And well, then I guess there are also people who just do admirality, doffing and log off again. Also, can't imagine how that could be very enjoyable.
That's speculation, something you seem to be awfully sure of. And yes, if we're talking about the unfortunate case where player hates queued content altogether, my proposed changes won't help anything. But, again, I believe those people to be in minority, simply because I can't see there's much else to do in game. However, I chatted with various people, and they all confirmed that they would queue up more often to queues they currently avoid if Cryptic would make them less tedious.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
So much this. I hope this gets dev attention, because I agree with much of what you said. From chatting with fleeties and friends, these are not unpopular opinions either.
I would add, the formula for success of GTFOs and STFOs is:
Increase rewards.
Remove annoying interaction interrupters.
Ease off the time gates, at least add some non-combat thing to do while waiting. (I'm thinking fallback to x,y position, or reconfigure defense satellite, launch surveillance probe, et al.)
Cut scenes! OMG cut scenes. Why do you do that, right when I'm about to make my final crushing blow? I don't even care if I spawn freshly healed, with all skills reset and ready to go, that interruption hurt my feelings.
Most importantly though, and I know I'm repeating myself but it needs to be said again, and again; Increase Rewards. (while you're at it, how about a 10k Dil refinement cap? if you do this I'll send Dominos with lunch for the STO dev team, and make the Klingons pay for it.)
I can help you with that. Viscous Cycle, despite being a well-made queue (imo) without any significant timegates, pops incredibly rarely. Sure, part of it can be explained by many players not liking the fluidic space effect, and the fact that Gekli can still bug out, but also UAA exists and it is much more rewarding for similar amount of time. Think VCE paid like ~40 marks, compared to what, 200+ from UAA?
So indeed, as I said before too, rewards play a part of why some queues don't pop, but what I'm trying to say with my thread, and Pete with his post, that it's definitely not the only factor.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
And I was just jumping at your example cuz it highlights perfectly why the situation is so desolate!
You want me to say that every map, no matter how bad it is designed has its price? Yea sure it does! I mean look at mirror invasion event where dozen or hundreds of players endure it afk to grab marks and dil.
The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content?
Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests.
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Agreed.
The most important thing is that the content is actually fun. Sure, there will be people that play the content because they need the rewards and that's fine.. but the question is, is that all Cryptic wants from these missions? For people to play them until they no longer have to and then never touch them again? Eventually, players are going to get the number of rewards they're after, at that point.. what keeps them playing?
I am one of the ones speaking from the other side.. players that don't need the rewards, they are just looking for content that's fun. I run these queues almost every weekend even though I have nothing left to gain from them.. why? because I play a game to have fun. I like to run missions with my fleet, they're a great bunch and I enjoy playing with them. Usually none of us need the reward, what we need is fun and engaging content. We need missions that aren't just a pointless time gate where we sit around waiting for things to happen.
I am totally on board with balancing rewards so that players that need those rewards get into the queues, it just doesn't stop there. It's a combination of both, giving people high payout for content that isn't fun is what makes it feel like 'a grind.' The goal should be not only to get players into the queues, but keep them in them on a regular basis.
I wasn't saying anything like that. I was highlighting the one big contributor to the problem. Reward Payout. I won't deny some of the older STFs need some work to make them more fun. Azura Nebula being one of them. But as it stands now... quick payout trumps all. Until that is addressed, there is no incentive to play anything else, even if it is revamped.
Yet people are totally happy playing HSE for hours straight, warping out before scanning the escape pods. Thus not getting any rewards at all, but escaping the 30min CD to play the same mission again and again.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Guilty as charged!
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You're not wrong, payout is probably the biggest motivator. While what you say is true though, we're simply stating that it's only part of the issue. Players will eventually get to the point where they have the gear/marks/whatever they need.. unless they're just playing for Dilithium.
I think the answer to the problem is a combination of normalizing rewards and making content less obstructive to the player. Popular queues like ISA and CCA both do this.. they're quick and painless and they reward well for your time. The first step is removing the constraints like what Tunebreaker posted in the original post, but yes.. you also need to look at rewards. Even if you make a queue fun, but still have paltry rewards you're only going to appeal to the players that don't need the rewards.
If the goal is to make the content more appealing on a global level then yes.. you have to normalize reward/time ratio on top of making the changes to the queues. Doing one without the other only addresses part of the problem.
As far as I'm concerned, everything gets repetitive after some playthroughs and the only reason to repeat content is to claim some reward or achievement. For all I do want STO to give me that reason, it doesn't.
And yes, I totally do think customizing characters, trading and doing Admiralty are all better uses of my time than repeating "actual gameplay" for generic rewards I don't need.
30k DPS in Infected is just 30k DPS in Infected. Doesn't mean you will get that same result in other places. Certainly not Japori because you don't have 4 others to help boost your numbers.
Infected is not the end all measuring stick IMO. While it DOES give you an idea of how well your ship performs... it should not be used as the end all final verdict on effectiveness. While I agree that about 10k in Infected means your build is good for most content... it shouldn't be the one driving force to boost your numbers in one single map. Because lets face it... 10k against Borg alone may not translate to 10k against the Hirogen or Iconians. You need to be flexable because we're not just fighting Borg. Its a good foundation... but its not the whole building.
Apart from the aggro problem, I think you are talking about something different here, Time gates may easily be justified story wise - arrival of the cavalry, somebody working on a console in oh so many missions, but they make for a bad mechanic if what you're doing during this timegate doesn't matter, or only in an insignificant way. And no, the way "Home" does it is not the ideal solution for me either.
However, it is a problem of almost all games, and MMOs even more so. If you have abilities with gaps as they are in STO you will almost always encounter the problems we've seen in CCA or other queues: some players will solo them in a minute (or another comparatively laughable timeframe), some teams will struggle to meet the limit, and if "good" and "bad" players mix one side will be unhappy because they have to carry the team and the other will be unhappy because they cannot contribute. (Obviously not true for all players, some don't care about the team and just do their stuff, some will be happy to get their quick marks because of a super teammate, but for many.)
One solution in improving content may be to include content that isn't simple shoot 'em up. And some missions do so. And many players are completely out of their league when they have to do so because they don't RTFM and will just fly around and shoot enemies to no avail.
So yeah, the problem is obvious, and I do think the devs are very aware of that. But I very much doubt that there is some clear cut solution making everybody, or at least a vast majority, happy.
Reminds me of a run I had in the competative Ground STF. I like that one because of the puzzles. But I had one run where my team didn't even get past the Invisible Floor puzzle because no one understood that shooting the infinitely spawning enemies wasn't going to get us across. So there I was... standing on an invisible walkway... with my team shooting infinitely spawning enemies on the opposite side of the chasm.
Which brings up another issue with STO. Communication. Due to the pace of battle... we hardly have time to coordinate via text chat. And when I actually used in game voice (when it worked) it was rare to get anyone else who used it. Its basically assume everyone knows their job, go forth, and shoot. If someone doesn't, then either protest by AFK, straight up leave the STF, or berate them for the duration of the STF because they don't measure up to a percieved standard. No tips on how to improve or tips on how to do the STF.
Communication in STFs is virturally non existant. Any that does happen is limited by the pace of battle or other factors such as language barrier or rage level. Its rare to even get a GG anymore at the end. And I usually respond to GGs. Its more common to see a parse in Infected than a GG.
I can generally handle defense pretty well in Kitomer Space Advanced. But I am also willing to help someone that needs help on the other side of the map if I got an opening. Rather than trying and failing... calling for help could mean the difference on the optional. But again... pace of battle and other factors mean communication is non existant.
While it's true that X number in Infected is just indicative of X number in Infected, it still is the second best map to give impression of player's overall *damage* capabilities, just behind HSE. If someone does reasonably high score (say, 75k+) in ISA (although, again, HSE is even better for that), and didn't try to game the system in process (gate doping, using mechanics that were nerfed last thursday etc), you can be fairly sure that person can also hold the damage requirement of the elites in game, provided they are flying the same ship. Of course, said person can be absolutely clueless when it comes to dealing with other objectives, or their mission-specific positioning can be severely lacking, but that's a different topic altogether. As far as firepower is concerned, they will be ready.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Such posts really give me a good laugh, for that I thank you.
Nevertheless I must admit that they leave one with a sad, well pathetic off-taste. I mean if a group of players in a videogame get fun out of doing whatever they are doing how big must one’s own dissatisfaction there be that it has to be commented in a way only disoriented twelve year old would do before their first sexual experience?
Whatever you do in STO that makes you happy I probably don’t care enough about cuz I’m too busy and enthusiastic with my thing you know. Still, if you have found something fun or worth doing I respect that and I’m even happy for you to some extent. It would never occur to me to bad mouth it one way or the other.
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At first I thought about to dismiss and tag your post as off topic but then decided that this would not be me.
Thing is the DPS community does not “require” your understanding, you know? It consists of literary thousands of players with hundreds of them being active and in agreement, in one way or the other, to do what they do.
Instead of developing some bizarre relationship with ISA like Steve or Reyan have a habit of doing why not take the initiative and identify a map or activity you like to pursue and thrive upon it? You could make your own channels, leagues, third party tools and whatever for things like Japori patrol or whatever it is in STO that thrills you and motivate other players to join you.
I know I know, such stuff is really not easy and latest attempts we had with the colony sim channels even show how tough it gets to keep peeps interested once the reward demand is over or when bad leadership skills surface.
The way I see it you are either in a minority here with your opinion or you would have found a way to not care about what it is that keep players being obsessed with ISA while you are not or somehow are as well but puzzeled about it...
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As a team player and someone who thrives on support roles let it be de-buffer, healer, crowd controller or even tanks as much (or even more) than on his DPS builds I agree with you.
I think that tunebreaker tried to be as realistic with his ideas as it gets. It’s a suggestion of minimum effort for cryptic with maximum impact on the enjoyment of PvE for the player base.
Cryptic will not change the game for what it is because they can’t.
If they should try is most likely another discussion but as things are now players are at least free. They can beat the content however they like. Sure DPS is a direct approach to do good everywhere in game but the moment they want to do great or even exceptional they will find themselves in teams where support roles are highly useful or even mandatory.
Take me; I’m proud for being in top 10 of the DPS charts by now. Still not as remotely proud as I am as to have helped three others to get there as well with my support build.
Nothing stops you from identifying what support is needed in PvE to do great and offer it to the right players.
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So are people unhappy with queues and not playing them because they take too long? Or is it just that they enjoy the queues taking however long they take, but dislike the feeling of fake timegates being added to slow them up.
Me personally I don't really care if a mission take 15 mins, in fact i'd rather it did take that long to give me a chance to actually fly my ship. Sub-2 min runs are really not all that fun when it often takes up to 10 mins to form the team. I want to be playing the actual missions not just queuing up and then it last 30 secs, 2 mins etc. Never really understood the drive with some to have everything be over instantly.
I'd argue that the length of time a queue takes should not really mater IF the players don't notice how long it's taking. So a queue with varied content and stages, challenging but not repetitive combat, maybe some alternative strategy mixed in; maybe that would all create a mission where you don;t really notice it took you 15 mins to play through.
One mission that comes to mind is the Miner Instabilities queue, which is actually pretty decent for most players even on elite level. It's got a timegate right at the first stage, but you generally don't notice it. Then after that you have a variety of options from different routes, sneaking up on enemies, going it all guns blazing etc. Then the final stage is pretty hectic and you don';t really notice how long it takes as the NPC you protect moves around a lot and there's constant action.
If they can manage that for one mission why not create similar content for space.
Lol yep and all the enthusiasm you put into it makes you all more believable. I get your sense of humor.
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Perhaps it’s far less complicated that one would think. We have popular queues and less popular queues.
Instead of releasing more and more unpopular queues perhaps it’s time to take orientation from what gets appreciated and played (despite its age) and adjust the newer, unpopular content accordingly.
That is what the OPs suggestion aim at, step by step. Peeps always loved ISA, back at the day where it took 10-15 mins and now where it only takes 2. There must be a reason and it cant be that hard to figure it out.
Even though not obvious pug choices UAA and TFA/E get played a lot in premades and pop far more often in public as well compared to the maps tunebreaker points out. I doubt many players would mind longer than 2 minute engagements if a map has a encouraging line of conclusion. Hardly any artificial time gates there, and those few that are in are not annoying as they are respectfully integrated into the tasks at hand.
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That isn't the case anymore, not only is there no "best gear in game" anymore, there is also so much mission, crafted, lockbox and fleet gear, that you don't even need the rep gear to be competitive.
Same goes for dillithium, back then the STFs were the best place to get it, which is why so many ppl used to b*tch and moan on the forums about AFKers.
Now there are plenty of ways to get your 8K, and that's without going near Admiralty.
Add in that most newish players are here because it's Star Trek, and for many it's probably thier first MMO, as a result they don't have the typical "endgame = raids" mentality that most MMO vets do.
As a result there are fewer and fewer reasons to play them for most non vets.
As for me I haven't played a single STF or RA since I started, as an MMO vet I've ran into the same type of A-holes in most of the MMO I've played, you know the kind, those that get their "fun & kicks" out of ruining every one elses fun. So when STO went F2P I made the decision not to play any group content, and I haven't regretted it once, yes completing some reps can be a PITFA, I also don't have much in the way of rep gear, but as I posted above you don't really need it.
Exactly. It's fine if mission is long because there's lot to do, or you face strong enemies. But if the queue has to be 7 minutes long for no other reason than Cryptic said so and slapped a 7min obligatory timer on it, it becomes ridiculous. Player skills differ, for some, completing the objectives might indeed take 7 minutes, and that's completely fine. But if some other group is better and would be able to complete the same objective in 4 minutes, then good mission design lets them.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.