I'm sorry, but if the game is work to you that you don't enjoy it is really not Cryptic's fault. Nobody forces you to complete all these "chores" every day.
It is WORK to do dailies to get all the stuff you need to help out your fleet and get all the stuff to make your toons better. I can't afford to buy zen for dil so I have to work for it. I would love to explore all the content but if I don't do these CHORES I won't be able to get all the things I need. Dil, Ec, Marks, Contraband, Event Vouchers, Colony Provisions etc. doesn't just grow on trees. You have to WORK for it. I guess I could try doing TFO's to get 8000 dil per toon per day but I wouldnt have all the other things I need and I think it would take longer than 8 hours. Everyone has their own playstyle. I like finishing all my Admirality campaigns. I like finishing all my Reputations. I like finishing all my R&D schools. I like finishing all my Doff ranks. I like maxing out my fleet. I like getting accolades. On and on. But it all requires WORK. So if the TFO rewards of the new system gets me all the things I need per day I will do them otherwise I just won't have the time.
To everyone bringing up Neverwinter and how they have it and it works over there all I can say is that you either do not play the game or never go near the forum, or you'd know that the RQ system over there is the number one most hated feature in that game. The only reason it sees any use is that it's really the only way to earn rAD (raw dil) outside of Ravenloft hunts that doesn't take forever.
And honestly, after you get past a certain IL dropping the RQ, simply queuing for what you want and then get rAD from salvage is a far more efficient way to go about it.
I don't touch it over there and I doubt I will on here either unless they nerf every other way I earn dil severely. The rewards aren't enough for me to hassle with queues I normally wouldn't touch and I don't do space queues except with a premade team or if I absolutely cannot avoid it for some reason. *sideeyes The Swarm* Reason I still haven't done the Gamma rep, bad flashbacks to Gateway to Gre'thor, but at least that one had a modicum of tactic in it. This one is just so much pewpew.
I suppose it means - if others feel differently - that I don't have to wait two hours for some of my favorite queues to pop. But I fear that like in Neverwinter it'd only mean dealing with a ton of afk people, or just have people straight up leave content hey don't want. Which is fine, I can solo most of these queues anyway if the game would let me.
Actually that brings me to a change I'd much rather see. Bring back the option to private queue for something with less than a full team. If I want to do Infected Ground solo why can't I do that? Or two man it with a friend? If you allowed for that this change really wouldn't be necessary, so maybe bring that back instead of this nonsense?
Not aiming at you Kael, not trying to shoot you. You're just the messenger. But nah, hard pass for me on this.
One question though. Why on earth isn't Gamma Battlezone matches included in this? They're as dead as most queues and could do with an influx, especially as the only alternative to earning Gamma marks is The Swarm, which is just a dumbed down version of Gateway to Gre'thor. So much so I keep thinking Odo is going to say "Shipyard troop transport are beginning their run to the planet".
LOL. Stole my thunder!
~Shia~
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 65, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 65, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 65, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 63, Rom Tac
Sukima, Lvl 65, Fed Vul Sci
Imo the big reason they don't wanna split ground and space is that ground ques are more rewarding and take less time to do, so there is the possibility for people to farm random ground TFO and get resources faster ( while actually enjoying the game i might add ), a thing that in excellently undesirable for the devs.
Or that ground TFO's are underplayed and the system is designed to address the imbalance in player choice by utilizing a standard matchmaking approach to multiplayer match choice, be it between space TFO's or among the queue system at large.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
just a question: the possibility to choose the stf of our choice will be definitely removed?
Yes, by queuing for an individual TFO. IMO a queue should only be removed from rotation if it is definitely broken or unable to support 5 player teams. This system should be unbiased by player preference since its that which the random queue is trying to address (I shouldn't be stuck in a CCA/ISA/Alert grind just because someone I'm paired with wants the bonus and doesn't want to break out of their old habits, defeating the purpose entirely; or that the community has shaved off unwanted variation through iterative feedback until the random queue represent comparably narrow grind. This is encouraging players to branch out, and I hope that's maintained over time.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You want specifics? Great. The thing is though that a lot of these bugs have been reported, in detail, time and again, only to be ignored.
.
THIS!!! OMFG so much this. After posting my initial reaction, I saw the frankly snarky response from Borticus and this is exactly what I thought. I refer to reporting a bug in this game as tossing feedback into a singularity. No sign anyone will pay attention or respond, let alone fix something. But I still report it every time because I want to be an optimist...
> @njodeath#7166 said:
> angrytarg wrote: »
>
> I'm sorry, but if the game is work to you that you don't enjoy it is really not Cryptic's fault. Nobody forces you to complete all these "chores" every day.
>
>
>
>
> It is WORK to do dailies to get all the stuff you need to help out your fleet and get all the stuff to make your toons better. I can't afford to buy zen for dil so I have to work for it. I would love to explore all the content but if I don't do these CHORES I won't be able to get all the things I need. Dil, Ec, Marks, Contraband, Event Vouchers, Colony Provisions etc. doesn't just grow on trees. You have to WORK for it. I guess I could try doing TFO's to get 8000 dil per toon per day but I wouldnt have all the other things I need and I think it would take longer than 8 hours. Everyone has their own playstyle. I like finishing all my Admirality campaigns. I like finishing all my Reputations. I like finishing all my R&D schools. I like finishing all my Doff ranks. I like maxing out my fleet. I like getting accolades. On and on. But it all requires WORK.
Rofl, man I make thousands of dollars worth of Dillzen per year, and I don't do jack for 'work" in STO, if making Dill for zen is work, your doing it wrong.
So I take it you haven't finished any Adnirality campaigns and your R&D ranks are at level 1 your playing with MK1 gear and so on. If you are maxed out which I assume you are then you had to do the work. I got 3 new delta recruits and 2 new Gamma recruits I need everything and I can't get it in a TFO. My fleet needs Dil. I need Dil and ALL the other things I listed. It's not about dil/zen. And as I pointed out before EVERYONE has different playstyles there is no right or wrong way. I'm a farmer/grinder thats what I do and I like it. I guess you didn't read the original post that angrytarg replied to in the first place you might have got the context.
Works for SWTOR too, they've always had all flashpoints (TFOs) selected by default. If you want to do a specific flashpoint, you un-select the others. I remember the angst about the level cap increase to 65 but I think we all survived.
STO will survive this.
LOL, that's not even remotely comparable. SWTOR's space missions are single-player only and, as such, aren't even on the queueable content, so there's no problem there with people queueing for random and ending up in an Archenar Interception instead of an Hammer Station.
Even the PvP queues are different, as they should be, because the day they think about joining them together? All hell is gonna break loose.
And of course if you want to do a specific FP/Uprising you unselect the others, but that has got nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is Random Task Force Operations. Key word: random. You unselect even one FP? No random for you, sir.
We already can queue for whatever STF we want to do and there's no problem there, except for the fact that some are pretty much impossible to do unless you go with a full group already.
If the goal of this all charade is to make people play content that never gets played, then they need to work on that content, not "invent" a "new" system - again, not new at all - just so they can say "see? see? we gave you a new toy but you don't use it!" when the data analysis will show exactly how much excited players are about it, then they'd better spend the time to make a worthwile new season.
I am reading by one of the statements from Borticus that they need actual players playing these missions if they want a shot at "fixing" them. I guess if people practically never play a particular task force, they for example can't figure out fair rewards for them, because they don't know how long people actually need for it. And if there are bugs that they don't encounter in internal playtests, they need players playing the missions to flush them out. But that can never happen if it's not getting played.
I think one of STO's fundamental problem is that player power levels are basically all over the place. There are games out there that are tightly balanced and Devs have a reasonable shot at tweaking an encounter or a boss fight so they know how many people can beat it and what these people would use. Power rotations, dPS and what not could be well-predicted. But STO is not such a game. Too many possible interactions with 25+ clickable powers and dozens of passive traits and proc effects possible on an endgame character out of a list of hundreds of powers and traits, and the last (and maybe even first!) time someone has really deeply looked into power rotations and the like was probably Season 2 or so, when snix made the first great power revamp, long before F2P or reputations or specializations or universal consoles.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Works for SWTOR too, they've always had all flashpoints (TFOs) selected by default. If you want to do a specific flashpoint, you un-select the others. I remember the angst about the level cap increase to 65 but I think we all survived.
STO will survive this.
LOL, that's not even remotely comparable. SWTOR's space missions are single-player only and, as such, aren't even on the queueable content, so there's no problem there with people queueing for random and ending up in an Archenar Interception instead of an Hammer Station.
Even the PvP queues are different, as they should be, because the day they think about joining them together? All hell is gonna break loose.
And of course if you want to do a specific FP/Uprising you unselect the others, but that has got nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is Random Task Force Operations. Key word: random. You unselect even one FP? No random for you, sir.
We already can queue for whatever STF we want to do and there's no problem there, except for the fact that some are pretty much impossible to do unless you go with a full group already.
If the goal of this all charade is to make people play content that never gets played, then they need to work on that content, not "invent" a "new" system - again, not new at all - just so they can say "see? see? we gave you a new toy but you don't use it!" when the data analysis will show exactly how much excited players are about it, then they'd better spend the time to make a worthwile new season.
I am reading by one of the statements from Borticus that they need actual players playing these missions if they want a shot at "fixing" them. I guess if people practically never play a particular task force, they for example can't figure out fair rewards for them, because they don't know how long people actually need for it. And if there are bugs that they don't encounter in internal playtests, they need players playing the missions to flush them out. But that can never happen if it's not getting played.
(Emphasis mine.)
Okay, but your reasoning here is fundamentally flawed as Bort's reply clearly showed that they haven't read the bug reports for pves we've made this far. Or he'd know that Azure Nebula is severely bugged and have been for a very, very long time. It's a bug that's been reported ad nauseam.
Same with Undine Infiltrator.
And another I was reminded of today, the Fire Team in Brotherhood of the Sword is bugged in about one out of three runs so you either cannot interact with them or they get stuck on their way out. Both bugs causes autofail on Elite. This is another one that's been around for ages, have been reported at length. Have never been fixed or even acknowledged and going by Bort's comment in this thread, no one ever bothered reading those bug reports.
And now they're trying to convince us they will?
Sure Jan. Read the damn reports that's been made in the last couple of years and fix those bugs, then we can talk. Until then I see no further reason to make bug reports that are clearly just ignored.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
Works for SWTOR too, they've always had all flashpoints (TFOs) selected by default. If you want to do a specific flashpoint, you un-select the others. I remember the angst about the level cap increase to 65 but I think we all survived.
STO will survive this.
LOL, that's not even remotely comparable. SWTOR's space missions are single-player only and, as such, aren't even on the queueable content, so there's no problem there with people queueing for random and ending up in an Archenar Interception instead of an Hammer Station.
Even the PvP queues are different, as they should be, because the day they think about joining them together? All hell is gonna break loose.
And of course if you want to do a specific FP/Uprising you unselect the others, but that has got nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is Random Task Force Operations. Key word: random. You unselect even one FP? No random for you, sir.
We already can queue for whatever STF we want to do and there's no problem there, except for the fact that some are pretty much impossible to do unless you go with a full group already.
If the goal of this all charade is to make people play content that never gets played, then they need to work on that content, not "invent" a "new" system - again, not new at all - just so they can say "see? see? we gave you a new toy but you don't use it!" when the data analysis will show exactly how much excited players are about it, then they'd better spend the time to make a worthwile new season.
I am reading by one of the statements from Borticus that they need actual players playing these missions if they want a shot at "fixing" them. I guess if people practically never play a particular task force, they for example can't figure out fair rewards for them, because they don't know how long people actually need for it. And if there are bugs that they don't encounter in internal playtests, they need players playing the missions to flush them out. But that can never happen if it's not getting played.
(Emphasis mine.)
Okay, but your reasoning here is fundamentally flawed as Bort's reply clearly showed that they haven't read the bug reports for pves we've made this far. Or he'd know that Azure Nebula is severely bugged and have been for a very, very long time. It's a bug that's been reported ad nauseam.
Same with Undine Infiltrator.
And another I was reminded of today, the Fire Team in Brotherhood of the Sword is bugged in about one out of three runs so you either cannot interact with them or they get stuck on their way out. Both bugs causes autofail on Elite. This is another one that's been around for ages, have been reported at length. Have never been fixed or even acknowledged and going by Bort's comment in this thread, no one ever bothered reading those bug reports.
And now they're trying to convince us they will?
Sure Jan. Read the damn reports that's been made in the last couple of years and fix those bugs, then we can talk. Until then I see no further reason to make bug reports that are clearly just ignored.
All of this.
He came here to tell us that simply saying "there are STFs that are severely bugged" is not worth their while 'cause it's not "actioanble feedback".
Which is true, except for the fact that every bug has been reported time and time again, only to be completely ignored.
If they took the time to read the reports and act on them in a timely fashion, many of the same STFs they're gonna try to push us to play would be played right now. But they simply didn't care, just like they don't care now.
Take the whole thing about separating Ground and Space. Read this thread: you'll find that the majority of those that have written here have said "they need to be separated". But instead of taking it into consideration, he said that they're not gonna change that.
And while getting separate, but active at the same time, traits for both Space and Ground could be a nice thing, it's just gonna be another bugged "feature" that we'll need to live with because the fixes will simply never come.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
So basically the ground TFO's will still never get played right? If they don't put a Ground/Space filter in a vast majority won't participate in this. If they do put a Ground/Space filter in a vast majority won't join the ground one. Is that the consensus? The space one (if filtered) now will be filled with people that have never really played the maps because they will fill them with people from the random TFO thereby ruining a good run for those of us that have waited to get a good team going correct? Ok got it.
How about a daily mission in the "tour the galaxy" style, where your task would be to complete as many different queues as possible (though with a considerably longer time limit), with scaling rewards based on how many of them you complete?
But back to the random queue generator - important thing to consider is this:
Who benefits?
It can't be people farming reputation marks, because in those cases, you are after a specific piece of rep gear, and so you need one specific type of marks, thus you would stick to manual selection.
It can't be people farming dil/fleet marks because of the unpredictable time/reward ratio and the unpredictable rate of success, so these guys would probably just stick to the dil-makers they can trust.
It can't be for people just wishing for just something ANYTHING to play, because those can just go to queue finder, filter for ground, space, normal, advanced, elite - whatever they feel like - and hit "join all".
It can't be for people who are just DYING to play that one queue they used to like, but nobody joins for it anymore... But then again... If they go into the random queue machine, they don't actually have a guarantee that it will pop, so the only guarantee they can play what they want is to make a private group or go for the manual selection, hoping that it will eventually get filled because of people clicking on "join random", but then those people exclude themselves from the bonus rewards, so their only benefit is that they will get a bit more variety, but all the bonus rewards will go to people who don't care and would probably rather do something faster.
It might create a short-term surge of activity, but I doubt it will revitalize the queues in a long run. It might pour some dilithium into the market, thus maybe create a bit of an inflation, but the dil will be where it is with the next phoenix box.
All in all, I'd say it won't have any significant effect on anything. In the end, it's probably just a follow-up to the controversial landing page... Just another feature that STO is getting simply because "everyone else has it".
Like some have said before, at least if it forces the devs to finally make it possible to have one set of traits/specs for ground, and a different one for space, it will be worth it.
I'm just gonna wait and see if they provide more information on the bonus rewards for using the random queues as well as if they plan to offset said bonus with loss of the regular rewards for queuing manually.
~Shia~
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 65, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 65, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 65, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 63, Rom Tac
Sukima, Lvl 65, Fed Vul Sci
People like me who would like more diversity in viable TFO's. This is a matchmaking system with a randomized map rotation, something Halo 2 popularized back in 2004 as a method for arbitrating the thorny question of match choice in online multiplayer. If you leave it to players, invariably they center around a few favorites which dominate offerings to a very similar degree as we see in STO (despite the variance in mechanics and gameplay style, human psychology still is what it is.) Curated playlists have since become a dominant form of multiplayer match choice in online gaming. It, quite simply, works. This isn't a question about popularity, it's about using proven mechanics to deal with shared problems. It's senseless to complain about this on the basis of "everyone else has this, so therefore its arbitrary." Well, not everyone has such severe problems with queue management and I don't think STO's specialty in this respect is worth protecting like a valued asset (especially with dead queues being a very common concern among players.)
STO is adopting a singular random queue to address (to a degree) the same problem of imbalance in multiplayer subpopulations while providing incentivization (to provide a material argument for breaking from the age-old grind, so players break from routine use this feature) and without replacing the current queue system. It's a damn good thing with appropriate implementation. The population benefits simply having an option to play the bulk of what's offered by the PVE system in spite of the dedicated min-max grinding. The cost? None, that I can see. The CCA/ISA/Alert grind isn't so sacrosanct that taking attention away from it isn't going to hurt the game and so long as the feature is used at a moderate frequency (something the bonus should solidify, see. the effect of active endeavors on queues) then it will have justified itself.
It doesn't have to change STO multiplayer, it just has to provide a better fallback to the narrow PVE grind.
It can't be for people just wishing for just something ANYTHING to play, because those can just go to queue finder, filter for ground, space, normal, advanced, elite - whatever they feel like - and hit "join all".
If I join all am I equally likely to find matches across available queues? No, because the mean expected wait time for each queue is not the same. I am much more likely to find a impending match in any of the regular favorites than anything else because they are most likely to either have the greatest rate of entry or the largest waiting team size. "Join all" is a far inferior option to the random queue (which guarantees by its core design viable odds of playing underrepresented content), and I hope that Cryptic goes further with exploring the multiplayer playlist concept (ex. special event hoppers themed around certain events. Ex. Halloween with a rotation of "spooky" PVE's [Undine, Bluegill, Elachi, ect.] available for the weekend.)
To be perfectly frank, it's something that STO should have shipped with in the first place in anticipation of expanding PVE offerings (which they've struggled for years to find an equitable system of management.) The multiplayer playlist is one of them, the other: extensive cuts and shifting rotations (which folks generally do not want.)
I'm just gonna wait and see if they provide more information on the bonus rewards for using the random queues as well as if they plan to offset said bonus with loss of the regular rewards for queuing manually.
It's listed in the blog, the bonus is a randomized mark/dil package. The drawback to queuing normally is not getting this. Considering the fact that its the longer queues that tend to be most underrepresented (and thus the prime targets for the random queue) I don't think that the average bonus is going to override the current effort/return calculation from ISA/CCA/Alert grinding. But, like an active endeavor it should help promote breaking from routine (at minimum, Cryptic doesn't have to make the random queue pay more on average, only make the average difference sufficiently small that the desire to play something more fresh can finally tip someone's psychological balance out of the old grind for a match or two. At maximum, Cryptic favors the random queue to more forcibly encourage breaking from long-set routines [which can be difficult for some players.] How far they go depends on how firmly engrained their data shows players to be [something they can probably look at from the rate of participation with endeavors.])
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
People like me who would like more diversity in viable TFO's. This is a matchmaking system with a randomized map rotation, something Halo 2 popularized back in 2004 as a method for arbitrating the thorny question of match choice in online shooters. If you leave it to players, invariably they center around a few favorites which dominate offerings to a very similar degree as we see in STO (despite the variance in mechanics and gameplay style, human psychology still autocorrelates.) Curated playlists have since become the dominant form of multiplayer matching in online gaming. STO is now adopting the random queue to address the same problem while providing incentivization (to provide a material argument for breaking from the age-old grind, so players use this feature) and without replacing the queue system and thereby forcing everyone to shift to this new model.
Except it's not truly random. Any TFO that would have at least one person that queued manually will have priority over a TFO with zero people in queue, when it comes to filling the vacant positions. That means, that queues that are already fan favourite will continue to receive more traffic than queues that are currently deserted.
Although it's hard to make definite predictions - it all depends on the ratio of people going random and people going manual. Sure, if it was like 10:1, then there is a pretty decent chance that five random-joiners will get a random roll, but still, all it takes is just one person to queue for Infected Space in the same time it takes to gather four people to click the random TFO button, and off to fighting the borg we go again...
Yes, the other queues will also pop from time to time, but in general, I would expect that it would end up with like 3-4 of the most popular queues in a "main rotation" (the most time-effective queues you can fit in 30 minutes until the queue cooldown on the first TFO resets), with the occasinal random sprinkled here and there.
It's like a Lockbox! You know it probably wont be what you like, but it might be!
Except it's not truly random. Any TFO that would have at least one person that queued manually will have priority over a TFO with zero people in queue, when it comes to filling the vacant positions. That means, that queues that are already fan favourite will continue to receive more traffic than queues that are currently deserted.
Yeah I see that now (first read: this was just a separate random playlist.) But I still think this is a great setup (some added benefits with the open format.)
The problems come if Cryptic counterproductively includes fan favorites with the random queue selection. Note that there is that contingency for what the system does if there's no queue in waiting. How often have you seen this, ie. zero waiting players across all queues? I don't think it's a realistic expectation if the favorites are included (there's always a match waiting or building, most especially during a PVE event.) Hence: the system should only looking at its list of eligible queues from the start (if not: that absolutely should be changed.)
To me, the blog reads as: among eligible queues (taking these into account in the first place), the system will first try to find a match. If none is open, then a random determination is made from that same list. Thus someone hoping to find a game in underrepresented TFO's has a pretty good chance of having a team join them, and if no one is queued then the question of match selection comes down to cascade random probability (one player's random match immediately draws a team, so they're not stuck waiting on independent probabilities for others to populate their queue).
There can still be some favoritism applying here (ie. just at or below threshold queues consistently being the first to draw players in), but those making the choice aren't benefiting from the random queue bonus (they're the people just wanting to play something else for the hell of it) and they are a current minority in the system. 5:1 is the minimum ratio for overriding their impact, 4 to fill and 1 to then start a cascade random queue. However, one must also presume in this case that the 1 manual player is exhibiting a strong bias. The weaker the bias, the more insubstantial the effect and it could well be moot if there isn't a significant difference in the attempted queue rate among eligible TFO's (something Cryptic can look at and monitor with a one-way ANOVA and sequential T-tests, if they haven't already .)
So, I don't think it'll be a significant factor provided that the likes of ISA/CCA/Alerts are excluded from the system. I took this as read but it would be nice to have confirmation.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I noticed that @duncanidaho11. I'm just hoping they don't remove the rewards from queing normally like they did with the NW random queue feature. If you're not familiar with the NW queues they used to reward a bonus plus any loot and salvage acquired during the run. That stopped that after the random queues were introduced and now the random queues are the only way to earn the bonus, not from queing normally. Right now the STFs provide a modest reward (marks/dilith/gear) for queing normally. Will that be eliminated and the only way to earn that reward is via the random queues? It was a shock to me and other players when that was announced as part of the features of the new NW random queues. What you said made sense as would have been the smart way to make the new queues more attractive - keep the rewards the same for normal queues but give a nice bonus for joining up via the random feature. Since Cryptic didn't do it that way over there and are now introducing the system here, I just would appreciate some clarification as to whether they're planning a repeat of how the rewards and bonuses are earned. If it's not, I can breath a little bit easier and maybe queue up randomly a few times when the feature goes live. If they are planning to reduce or eliminate the normal rewards for queing normally, it would be nice to know ahead of time. My two ec.
~Shia~
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 65, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 65, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 65, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 63, Rom Tac
Sukima, Lvl 65, Fed Vul Sci
If they are planning to reduce or eliminate the normal rewards for queing normally, it would be nice to know ahead of time. My two ec.
I think we'll be safe. Here's a relevant quote from the blog.
"Completing a TFO via the Random system will grant BONUS REWARDS, in addition to whatever the TFO itself rewards for completion. "
There's the big highlight to bonus and no mention of any changes to what's normal for the TFO. It doesn't seem like they're intending to change the existing rewards structure. If Cryptic doesn't offer the qualification here (ie. yes, daily bonuses, R+D packs, marks, dil, and gear aren't going anywhere) then you can chime in during the Ten Forward Weekly livestream and post the comment in chat (generally most reliable way to get that definite surety about a direct issue like this.) If you can't, then I can make a note and try to bring it up myself.
I agree that in light of how specializations currently work having separate space and ground pools would be wise. The potential issues with certain operations needing specialized equipment (remodulators and/or EV suits) a particular player might not have previously had a need would explain their not being in the rotation (Transdimensional Tactics comes to mind) until some means is provided to ensure that players do have said gear (a few missions do this already, so it's not that far a leap).
I think remodulators should be fine, its free to replicate (small dil cost to EV suits) and good for players to have in their inventory. I think it would be worth the trouble to have one or more of the ground STF's in rotation (tholian ground: probably more of a hassle. I've found it difficult to coach players on EV suit use when the endeavor was promoting the queue, and thus when folks should have had some idea for what they were getting into.)
As far as the general issue goes though: I'm one of the players that keeps to a single ground/space build on all but one character. There is a compromise but speaking for a space build running ground, it shouldn't ever be so great that it affects your ability to participate with ground queues. Larger problems arise from players who have just never bothered developing a ground build. In elite, yes you can feel the tradeoffs on some builds but for normal and advanced (the difficulty levels included in the random queues) a little sub-optimization for ground (in the event of space-centric spec/active trait choices) should be very livable (ie. I'm not sure this needs dev action.)
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> @seaofsorrows said:
> Again, to comment on the biggest part of this so far..
> borticuscryptic wrote: »
>
> Including both Ground+Space is absolutely intentional, and exceedingly unlikely to be altered. But addressing Build/Spec concerns that stem from this choice is definitely on my list for further review.
>
> Read the feedback, no one wants this.
>
> Let me ask you something Bort.. is this just about you? or is this system supposed to be designed for the players? for the customers?
>
> You're about to introduce yet another system that no one will like.. that no one will use. If this is set in stone and you won't budge on it at all.. then lets just cut out the middle man, consider this thing a failure, you can stop working on it now and put your time into something else. Either listen to player feedback, or don't bother at all.
>
> We're not going to use this thing. Is that clear enough?
I am going to use it, stop claiming yo speak for everyone.
Yeah, I don't see the "but my specs are space" issue as being particularly relevant. Yes going into combat with no spec or a useless spec makes you less effective. But I have a dark secret.... In CC I was regularly getting 2nd and 3rd despite my lazy habit of not bothering to spend spec points.
I think one of STO's fundamental problem is that player power levels are basically all over the place. There are games out there that are tightly balanced and Devs have a reasonable shot at tweaking an encounter or a boss fight so they know how many people can beat it and what these people would use. Power rotations, dPS and what not could be well-predicted. But STO is not such a game. Too many possible interactions with 25+ clickable powers and dozens of passive traits and proc effects possible on an endgame character out of a list of hundreds of powers and traits, and the last (and maybe even first!) time someone has really deeply looked into power rotations and the like was probably Season 2 or so, when snix made the first great power revamp, long before F2P or reputations or specializations or universal consoles.
And then there's player skill. Two guys with the same gear will get drastically different results if one of them is simply more skilled at playing the game.
The lack of borticus & whomever at Cryptic not realizing the needed separation of space & ground specs for better STO play after this announcement illustrates how out of touch some of them are with STO or this decision might already be final in their minds, based upon how borticus is reacting anyways, & they're just going through the motions of asking for feedback in an attempt to make it more palatable.
When your read of a situation is drastically different than that of someone else, there's always the possibility they know something you don't.
Is there a chance we could get an LFG system (even optional) to make other than DPS builds viable, and to you know play the game insted of just running in and kill everything as fast as you can, cause this game is soooooo rich mechanichwise but other than DPS there is no use on exploring them, just saying
What fresh hell is this? We're making the ETFs into TFOs? I realize you guys are just trying to get people to play your Dyson sphere battlezones more but the problem isn't with the content it is that there isn't a point to play the content again once you've maxed out your reputation in those areas. Making it "random" won't make it better. What you NEED to do is the same thing you've been doing all along when you give away great rewards for turning in some McGuffin item...BUT...you need to stop making us play the same map 14 times in 20 days to get the item. Make the McGuffin something that appears randomly each day in a different ETFO... For every five McGuffins get a RareMcGuffin...and for five of those get an EpicMcGuffin...no, not an egg mcmuffin...or maybe an egg mcmuffin as a rare reward would be a good thing - like when you gave away tacos.
I would totally run queues for Egg McMuffins.
On topic though.. I have always liked the idea of rotating daily rewards attached to a certain 'featured' queue. That's the real way to get people to play them. Similar to the Endeavour system but with a certain queue that rotates every 1-3 days and offers a unique reward. Cosmetic items are a good carrot to dangle that doesn't break the bank power wise.
Also to make things short and clear and to sumarize things that have been said a bit:
I play the few instances I actually do play because they work i.e. don't autofail fail on unavoidable bugs and because they got a reasonable time/reward ratio.
Instances I do not play are either prone to be botched by pugs, snafued by long existing bugs or are way to laborious for their rewards or just got rewards I do not wan't.
Bottomline:
Why would I want to invest time to risk beeing thrown into autofails over and over again?
•Which existing TFOs do you hope see more play time under this system, and why?
Virtually all of them, aside from those I mention below. Currently, only Red Alerts and things that coincide with current Endeavor objectives get much play. Also, although it won't be part of this system (being a 20-person queue), I would really like to see 'Mine Trap' returned to play.
Comments
It is WORK to do dailies to get all the stuff you need to help out your fleet and get all the stuff to make your toons better. I can't afford to buy zen for dil so I have to work for it. I would love to explore all the content but if I don't do these CHORES I won't be able to get all the things I need. Dil, Ec, Marks, Contraband, Event Vouchers, Colony Provisions etc. doesn't just grow on trees. You have to WORK for it. I guess I could try doing TFO's to get 8000 dil per toon per day but I wouldnt have all the other things I need and I think it would take longer than 8 hours. Everyone has their own playstyle. I like finishing all my Admirality campaigns. I like finishing all my Reputations. I like finishing all my R&D schools. I like finishing all my Doff ranks. I like maxing out my fleet. I like getting accolades. On and on. But it all requires WORK. So if the TFO rewards of the new system gets me all the things I need per day I will do them otherwise I just won't have the time.
LOL. Stole my thunder!
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Or that ground TFO's are underplayed and the system is designed to address the imbalance in player choice by utilizing a standard matchmaking approach to multiplayer match choice, be it between space TFO's or among the queue system at large.
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Yes, by queuing for an individual TFO. IMO a queue should only be removed from rotation if it is definitely broken or unable to support 5 player teams. This system should be unbiased by player preference since its that which the random queue is trying to address (I shouldn't be stuck in a CCA/ISA/Alert grind just because someone I'm paired with wants the bonus and doesn't want to break out of their old habits, defeating the purpose entirely; or that the community has shaved off unwanted variation through iterative feedback until the random queue represent comparably narrow grind. This is encouraging players to branch out, and I hope that's maintained over time.)
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THIS!!! OMFG so much this. After posting my initial reaction, I saw the frankly snarky response from Borticus and this is exactly what I thought. I refer to reporting a bug in this game as tossing feedback into a singularity. No sign anyone will pay attention or respond, let alone fix something. But I still report it every time because I want to be an optimist...
So I take it you haven't finished any Adnirality campaigns and your R&D ranks are at level 1 your playing with MK1 gear and so on. If you are maxed out which I assume you are then you had to do the work. I got 3 new delta recruits and 2 new Gamma recruits I need everything and I can't get it in a TFO. My fleet needs Dil. I need Dil and ALL the other things I listed. It's not about dil/zen. And as I pointed out before EVERYONE has different playstyles there is no right or wrong way. I'm a farmer/grinder thats what I do and I like it. I guess you didn't read the original post that angrytarg replied to in the first place you might have got the context.
I am reading by one of the statements from Borticus that they need actual players playing these missions if they want a shot at "fixing" them. I guess if people practically never play a particular task force, they for example can't figure out fair rewards for them, because they don't know how long people actually need for it. And if there are bugs that they don't encounter in internal playtests, they need players playing the missions to flush them out. But that can never happen if it's not getting played.
I think one of STO's fundamental problem is that player power levels are basically all over the place. There are games out there that are tightly balanced and Devs have a reasonable shot at tweaking an encounter or a boss fight so they know how many people can beat it and what these people would use. Power rotations, dPS and what not could be well-predicted. But STO is not such a game. Too many possible interactions with 25+ clickable powers and dozens of passive traits and proc effects possible on an endgame character out of a list of hundreds of powers and traits, and the last (and maybe even first!) time someone has really deeply looked into power rotations and the like was probably Season 2 or so, when snix made the first great power revamp, long before F2P or reputations or specializations or universal consoles.
No. You can still manually select the one you want. You just won't get the bonus rewards.
ok, thx. that's a good thing. so, i'm not interested at all.
(Emphasis mine.)
Okay, but your reasoning here is fundamentally flawed as Bort's reply clearly showed that they haven't read the bug reports for pves we've made this far. Or he'd know that Azure Nebula is severely bugged and have been for a very, very long time. It's a bug that's been reported ad nauseam.
Same with Undine Infiltrator.
And another I was reminded of today, the Fire Team in Brotherhood of the Sword is bugged in about one out of three runs so you either cannot interact with them or they get stuck on their way out. Both bugs causes autofail on Elite. This is another one that's been around for ages, have been reported at length. Have never been fixed or even acknowledged and going by Bort's comment in this thread, no one ever bothered reading those bug reports.
And now they're trying to convince us they will?
Sure Jan. Read the damn reports that's been made in the last couple of years and fix those bugs, then we can talk. Until then I see no further reason to make bug reports that are clearly just ignored.
All of this.
He came here to tell us that simply saying "there are STFs that are severely bugged" is not worth their while 'cause it's not "actioanble feedback".
Which is true, except for the fact that every bug has been reported time and time again, only to be completely ignored.
If they took the time to read the reports and act on them in a timely fashion, many of the same STFs they're gonna try to push us to play would be played right now. But they simply didn't care, just like they don't care now.
Take the whole thing about separating Ground and Space. Read this thread: you'll find that the majority of those that have written here have said "they need to be separated". But instead of taking it into consideration, he said that they're not gonna change that.
And while getting separate, but active at the same time, traits for both Space and Ground could be a nice thing, it's just gonna be another bugged "feature" that we'll need to live with because the fixes will simply never come.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
But back to the random queue generator - important thing to consider is this:
Who benefits?
It can't be people farming reputation marks, because in those cases, you are after a specific piece of rep gear, and so you need one specific type of marks, thus you would stick to manual selection.
It can't be people farming dil/fleet marks because of the unpredictable time/reward ratio and the unpredictable rate of success, so these guys would probably just stick to the dil-makers they can trust.
It can't be for people just wishing for just something ANYTHING to play, because those can just go to queue finder, filter for ground, space, normal, advanced, elite - whatever they feel like - and hit "join all".
It can't be for people who are just DYING to play that one queue they used to like, but nobody joins for it anymore... But then again... If they go into the random queue machine, they don't actually have a guarantee that it will pop, so the only guarantee they can play what they want is to make a private group or go for the manual selection, hoping that it will eventually get filled because of people clicking on "join random", but then those people exclude themselves from the bonus rewards, so their only benefit is that they will get a bit more variety, but all the bonus rewards will go to people who don't care and would probably rather do something faster.
It might create a short-term surge of activity, but I doubt it will revitalize the queues in a long run. It might pour some dilithium into the market, thus maybe create a bit of an inflation, but the dil will be where it is with the next phoenix box.
All in all, I'd say it won't have any significant effect on anything. In the end, it's probably just a follow-up to the controversial landing page... Just another feature that STO is getting simply because "everyone else has it".
Like some have said before, at least if it forces the devs to finally make it possible to have one set of traits/specs for ground, and a different one for space, it will be worth it.
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People like me who would like more diversity in viable TFO's. This is a matchmaking system with a randomized map rotation, something Halo 2 popularized back in 2004 as a method for arbitrating the thorny question of match choice in online multiplayer. If you leave it to players, invariably they center around a few favorites which dominate offerings to a very similar degree as we see in STO (despite the variance in mechanics and gameplay style, human psychology still is what it is.) Curated playlists have since become a dominant form of multiplayer match choice in online gaming. It, quite simply, works. This isn't a question about popularity, it's about using proven mechanics to deal with shared problems. It's senseless to complain about this on the basis of "everyone else has this, so therefore its arbitrary." Well, not everyone has such severe problems with queue management and I don't think STO's specialty in this respect is worth protecting like a valued asset (especially with dead queues being a very common concern among players.)
STO is adopting a singular random queue to address (to a degree) the same problem of imbalance in multiplayer subpopulations while providing incentivization (to provide a material argument for breaking from the age-old grind, so players break from routine use this feature) and without replacing the current queue system. It's a damn good thing with appropriate implementation. The population benefits simply having an option to play the bulk of what's offered by the PVE system in spite of the dedicated min-max grinding. The cost? None, that I can see. The CCA/ISA/Alert grind isn't so sacrosanct that taking attention away from it isn't going to hurt the game and so long as the feature is used at a moderate frequency (something the bonus should solidify, see. the effect of active endeavors on queues) then it will have justified itself.
It doesn't have to change STO multiplayer, it just has to provide a better fallback to the narrow PVE grind.
If I join all am I equally likely to find matches across available queues? No, because the mean expected wait time for each queue is not the same. I am much more likely to find a impending match in any of the regular favorites than anything else because they are most likely to either have the greatest rate of entry or the largest waiting team size. "Join all" is a far inferior option to the random queue (which guarantees by its core design viable odds of playing underrepresented content), and I hope that Cryptic goes further with exploring the multiplayer playlist concept (ex. special event hoppers themed around certain events. Ex. Halloween with a rotation of "spooky" PVE's [Undine, Bluegill, Elachi, ect.] available for the weekend.)
To be perfectly frank, it's something that STO should have shipped with in the first place in anticipation of expanding PVE offerings (which they've struggled for years to find an equitable system of management.) The multiplayer playlist is one of them, the other: extensive cuts and shifting rotations (which folks generally do not want.)
It's listed in the blog, the bonus is a randomized mark/dil package. The drawback to queuing normally is not getting this. Considering the fact that its the longer queues that tend to be most underrepresented (and thus the prime targets for the random queue) I don't think that the average bonus is going to override the current effort/return calculation from ISA/CCA/Alert grinding. But, like an active endeavor it should help promote breaking from routine (at minimum, Cryptic doesn't have to make the random queue pay more on average, only make the average difference sufficiently small that the desire to play something more fresh can finally tip someone's psychological balance out of the old grind for a match or two. At maximum, Cryptic favors the random queue to more forcibly encourage breaking from long-set routines [which can be difficult for some players.] How far they go depends on how firmly engrained their data shows players to be [something they can probably look at from the rate of participation with endeavors.])
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Except it's not truly random. Any TFO that would have at least one person that queued manually will have priority over a TFO with zero people in queue, when it comes to filling the vacant positions. That means, that queues that are already fan favourite will continue to receive more traffic than queues that are currently deserted.
Although it's hard to make definite predictions - it all depends on the ratio of people going random and people going manual. Sure, if it was like 10:1, then there is a pretty decent chance that five random-joiners will get a random roll, but still, all it takes is just one person to queue for Infected Space in the same time it takes to gather four people to click the random TFO button, and off to fighting the borg we go again...
Yes, the other queues will also pop from time to time, but in general, I would expect that it would end up with like 3-4 of the most popular queues in a "main rotation" (the most time-effective queues you can fit in 30 minutes until the queue cooldown on the first TFO resets), with the occasinal random sprinkled here and there.
It's like a Lockbox! You know it probably wont be what you like, but it might be!
Yeah I see that now (first read: this was just a separate random playlist.) But I still think this is a great setup (some added benefits with the open format.)
The problems come if Cryptic counterproductively includes fan favorites with the random queue selection. Note that there is that contingency for what the system does if there's no queue in waiting. How often have you seen this, ie. zero waiting players across all queues? I don't think it's a realistic expectation if the favorites are included (there's always a match waiting or building, most especially during a PVE event.) Hence: the system should only looking at its list of eligible queues from the start (if not: that absolutely should be changed.)
To me, the blog reads as: among eligible queues (taking these into account in the first place), the system will first try to find a match. If none is open, then a random determination is made from that same list. Thus someone hoping to find a game in underrepresented TFO's has a pretty good chance of having a team join them, and if no one is queued then the question of match selection comes down to cascade random probability (one player's random match immediately draws a team, so they're not stuck waiting on independent probabilities for others to populate their queue).
There can still be some favoritism applying here (ie. just at or below threshold queues consistently being the first to draw players in), but those making the choice aren't benefiting from the random queue bonus (they're the people just wanting to play something else for the hell of it) and they are a current minority in the system. 5:1 is the minimum ratio for overriding their impact, 4 to fill and 1 to then start a cascade random queue. However, one must also presume in this case that the 1 manual player is exhibiting a strong bias. The weaker the bias, the more insubstantial the effect and it could well be moot if there isn't a significant difference in the attempted queue rate among eligible TFO's (something Cryptic can look at and monitor with a one-way ANOVA and sequential T-tests, if they haven't already
So, I don't think it'll be a significant factor provided that the likes of ISA/CCA/Alerts are excluded from the system. I took this as read but it would be nice to have confirmation.
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Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
I think we'll be safe. Here's a relevant quote from the blog.
"Completing a TFO via the Random system will grant BONUS REWARDS, in addition to whatever the TFO itself rewards for completion. "
There's the big highlight to bonus and no mention of any changes to what's normal for the TFO. It doesn't seem like they're intending to change the existing rewards structure. If Cryptic doesn't offer the qualification here (ie. yes, daily bonuses, R+D packs, marks, dil, and gear aren't going anywhere) then you can chime in during the Ten Forward Weekly livestream and post the comment in chat (generally most reliable way to get that definite surety about a direct issue like this.) If you can't, then I can make a note and try to bring it up myself.
I think remodulators should be fine, its free to replicate (small dil cost to EV suits) and good for players to have in their inventory. I think it would be worth the trouble to have one or more of the ground STF's in rotation (tholian ground: probably more of a hassle. I've found it difficult to coach players on EV suit use when the endeavor was promoting the queue, and thus when folks should have had some idea for what they were getting into.)
As far as the general issue goes though: I'm one of the players that keeps to a single ground/space build on all but one character. There is a compromise but speaking for a space build running ground, it shouldn't ever be so great that it affects your ability to participate with ground queues. Larger problems arise from players who have just never bothered developing a ground build. In elite, yes you can feel the tradeoffs on some builds but for normal and advanced (the difficulty levels included in the random queues) a little sub-optimization for ground (in the event of space-centric spec/active trait choices) should be very livable (ie. I'm not sure this needs dev action.)
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My character Tsin'xing
I would totally run queues for Egg McMuffins.
On topic though.. I have always liked the idea of rotating daily rewards attached to a certain 'featured' queue. That's the real way to get people to play them. Similar to the Endeavour system but with a certain queue that rotates every 1-3 days and offers a unique reward. Cosmetic items are a good carrot to dangle that doesn't break the bank power wise.
I play the few instances I actually do play because they work i.e. don't autofail fail on unavoidable bugs and because they got a reasonable time/reward ratio.
Instances I do not play are either prone to be botched by pugs, snafued by long existing bugs or are way to laborious for their rewards or just got rewards I do not wan't.
Bottomline:
Why would I want to invest time to risk beeing thrown into autofails over and over again?