ok i have request then. since its already hard to remember to switch your specialization combination for ground or space, then i would request for addition of automated, configurable space/ground sets, that would activate.....um..... automaticaly.
i like the idea of randomness but how can you pre-set yourself for a mission if you dont know what it will be?
OR, simply allow us to switch those out of combat in mission.... that woul be simplier to do i guess.
How about you spec a healthy mix of both or choose one of the combi-specs? Part of not knowing what you face is, well, NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU FACE. pre-setting yourself defeats the purpose of that. If you are uncomfortable with that, don't queue randomly.
Also, a spec doesn't make or creak a build. Don't act like it's mandatory.
"How about you spec a healthy mix of both or choose one of the combi-specs?" Good point that I'm sure after enough time most players can achieve, but we all have to begin at the beginning & keep progressing like some players have them all filled.
"Part of not knowing what you face is, well, NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU FACE." If that's your fun that's great & run with it, but Cryptic's big-wigs & most players play to have fun. This being fun is even emphasized as the priority. With that logic you stated anytime we log-in to play why not randomly have us play or replay missions too all at random? Or no more specific loot, just randomize that too? Best possibly yet, I log-into STO to play for fun & by Cryptic's randomness it has me play EVE Online instead or another game.
"pre-setting yourself defeats the purpose of that." That statement is ridiculous since it contradicts how Cryptic has laid-out the whole Specialization Skill Points in the first place with the earn them, choose which ones we want to improve with to get better & progress especially since they cannot be reskilled. Cryptic designed the Specialization Skill Point feature to allow players to pre-set ourselves lol.
"If you are uncomfortable with that, don't queue randomly." This I agree with if one wants to gamble even more with randomness in STO then go for the random queuing & maybe earn more rewards, but this shouldn't by any means cease the ability to select a queue one particularly wants to play at that time & the rewards it offers.
"Also, a spec doesn't make or creak a build. Don't act like it's mandatory." I agree & true too, but it definitely helps & I'm guessing that's why it was implemented into the game so players can progress & better their characters playing STO content. I think just make all Specialization Skill Trees active all the time then this TFO randomness negative possibility is moot.
I'll probably try this TFO a couple of times before I decide I like it or not, but I want the option of still being able to select which queue I want like it is now for the rewards it is accustomed to rewarding. If Cryptic wants players to play more of the content that isn't usually being utilized as much as other content I suggest using more carrot rather than stick. If content in games isn't being played it isn't the players' majority at fault it is the creators. Also, Cryptic should announce for sale Specialization Skill Tree Retrain Tokens when this goes active. That would be classic.
You should not mistake a build, built around synergy and mechanic interactions as a build that requires improvement. Just because a themed build requires certain things it does not mean it’s overspecialised in a bad way. The problem is not the player build; the real problem is the poor implantation of the way random STF work. Saying take a more generic unspecialised build is not an acceptable solution.
Give me an example that isn't made of hot-air.
Keep in mind that you don't need any gear better than purple 12. Also, you don't need to choose between investing in space and ground skills, so people who specialize in space have the same number of skill points for ground as those who actually like ground. You don't need any of the T5 rep traits for normal or advanced really and you have the same number of ground trait slots as space. Which leaves spec trees... And you really don't need those for normal at all.
This is not like Sompek you can muddle though that if someone doesn't have a frequency remodulator as its the odd wave. But in the ground runs without the frequency remodulator that player can be doing zero damage for almost the entire mission which is a major problem.
You know you can replicate those DURING the mission, right?
As I'm reading this there is a lot of talk about people trying to make others change their gaming style. For example change your build to something more balanced. Why should anyone have to? Let everyone play the way they want to it's their choice. My only worry as I have stated many times is randoms coming in and ruining a run. Put in the filters. Ground/Space and most important to me Random/Manual. Make it our choice. Here's what the argument to that will be. "Well if you don't let the randoms join with the manuals it's doomed to fail." Let it fail. If it's not good enough to stand on it's own then so be it. Why did they filter out the Elite TFO's? I think we all know the answer to that. There would be ALOT more uproar then there is already from those Elite players that spend the money. I don't join Elite TFO's cause I respect those players and I don't want to ruin their runs. I have enough trouble with people that don't know the maps ruining runs on advanced already. This will just make the fail rate just that much worse as someone stated before. I'm not against this idea at all I hope it works for all those in favor I honestly do. I just don't understand why those in favor can't respect those not in favor and let us just opt out of the random part entirely.
Group content is a chore. Dailies are a chore. I already have a job that is a chore. You can change the clothing, but it's still the same person underneath.
Wrong again on so many levels. Just because you say its overspecialized doesn't mean it is or that's its a negative.
The problems encountered by overspecialization in this context are a negative (hence your complaints), though they are non-critical (according to the game's balance and mechanics) or indeed completely imaginary (see. failing to run a real test.)
The argument here is that Crytpic needs to provide two separate random queues to cater for ground/space preferences. However, STO has a strong emphasis on featured episodes that include both space and ground. If a player needs special accommodation for normal and advanced ground PVE queues (because for some reason they haven't adjusted their ground build to take into account space spec use), then by the consistent application of logic they also need help with playing mission content at normal/advanced. However, I have never seen cogent feedback to this effect, particularly from people who take their ground builds to the maximum possible level and see a mistimed module (due to lacking an ancillary spec bonus) as tantamount to an unusable build. I have seen folks complain about the difficulty of ground combat, but from the standpoint of personal preference or insufficient effort/attention put into their ground builds (particularly in the context of a new enemy type which is challenging old patterns.) In which cases: spec tree selection may be a factor worth considering but it's not the primary source of frustration (either its preference or a larger problem with their build.)
Being queued for Ground may be slightly inconvenient while using certain space-centric builds, but you will note that not knowing what enemy you're going to face in a random queue also poses some points of suboptimizination. Yet, you're not asking for queue subdivision based on faction. You are, without considering context or proportion, only asking for certain points of suboptimization be accommodated for via a major change of policy (which would affect the ability to play ground TFO's in real terms, given the population bias for space TFO's.)
Ie. You are complaining about one isolated negative while advocating for another much more severe negative. It's a trade off and Cryptic apparently views the population benefit from everyone in the random rotation potentially contributing to ground TFO's as worth the minor inconvenience of suboptimal spec choice at the lower difficulty levels. On reviewing the problem a bit more, I'm completely fine with that. Loosing max deeps in some restricted scenarios (that result from my choices, as if there are compromises to be had in specialization) is worth allowing folks who to find matches in eligible gorund queues more consistently. My numbers don't take priority over the binary state of playable: yes/no?
Besides, queuing for random TFO's is what you do when you don't have a strong preference for what you want to play. Those objecting to the feature based on a strong preference (ie. no ground) should consider the context of their complaint (is it relevant to the system's function and intended use? Remember: this is not a replacement for queuing, just a side feature to help with population distribution problems across the board.)
I have zero interest in running and using the random STF feature as for me the reward is pointless/useless.
So why are you trying to argue (at length) for a space random queue in the first place? Seems odd to have such a strong opinion on something you have zero categorical interest in.
As I'm reading this there is a lot of talk about people trying to make others change their gaming style. For example change your build to something more balanced. Why should anyone have to?
Because player decisions should affect gameplay? STO isn't so egalitarian that all builds work equally well irrespective of context. If you're making a poor decision, in the context of what you're playing, then the recommendation is for you to change your build to accommodate.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
The problems encountered by overspecialization in this context are a negative (hence your complaints), though they are non-critical (according to the game's balance and mechanics) or indeed completely imaginary (see. failing to run a real test.)
The argument here is that Crytpic needs to provide two separate random queues to cater for ground/space preferences. However, STO has a strong emphasis on featured episodes that include both space and ground. If a player needs special accommodation for normal and advanced ground PVE queues (because for some reason they haven't adjusted their ground build to take into account space spec use), then by the consistent application of logic they also need help with playing mission content at normal/advanced. However, I have never seen cogent feedback to this effect, particularly from people who take their ground builds to the maximum possible level and see a mistimed module (due to lacking an ancillary spec bonus) as tantamount to an unusable build. I have seen folks complain about the difficulty of ground combat, but from the standpoint of personal preference or insufficient effort/attention put into their ground builds (particularly in the context of a new enemy type which is challenging old patterns.) In which cases: spec tree selection may be a factor worth considering but it's not the primary source of frustration (either its preference or a larger problem with their build.)
Being queued for Ground may be slightly inconvenient while using certain space-centric builds, but you will note that not knowing what enemy you're going to face in a random queue also poses some points of suboptimizination. Yet, you're not asking for queue subdivision based on faction. You are, without considering context or proportion, only asking for certain points of suboptimization be accommodated for via a major change of policy (which would affect the ability to play ground TFO's in real terms, given the population bias for space TFO's.)
Ie. You are complaining about one isolated negative while advocating for another much more severe negative. It's a trade off and Cryptic apparently views the population benefit from everyone in the random rotation potentially contributing to ground TFO's as worth the minor inconvenience of suboptimal spec choice at the lower difficulty levels. On reviewing the problem a bit more, I'm completely fine with that. Loosing max deeps in some restricted scenarios (that result from my choices, as if there are compromises to be had in specialization) is worth allowing folks who to find matches in eligible gorund queues more consistently. My numbers don't take priority over the binary state of playable: yes/no?
Besides, queuing for random TFO's is what you do when you don't have a strong preference for what you want to play. Those objecting to the feature based on a strong preference (ie. no ground) should consider the context of their complaint (is it relevant to the system's function and intended use? Remember: this is not a replacement for queuing, just a side feature to help with population distribution problems across the board.)
Despite that fact our individual styles of posting can sometimes be in conflict, there are times when you do a frame a particular topic very well, in your own unique way.
Although I can empathize with those that may prefer not to be suboptimal, and hope that Cryptic takes player feedback seriously, I can't think of any normal or advanced queue in a ground/space mix that couldn't be completed because of one secondary specialization not being the optimal choice nor a build that would be rendered useless.
At the very least if you have a build that uses say Strategist for cool downs in space you could keep that and miss out on Commando for ground. Most primary specs contain both space and ground components aside from pilot?
It would be interesting to hear some specific details if something is being missed here and there really are builds with a spec combo that would render it unusable for mixed use.
And plz plz bring back the OLD STF's , that was so much fun, its something nice to do with a group of friends, not the 2 min "pew pew and its done" kind of STF.,
•What excites you, or makes you anxious, about the prospect of opting into Randomized content, and why?
Neither, really, just another play change to adapt to, though I expect much whining from some quarters.
If i read this right, its only normal and advanced Q?, for ground i only play Elite, so if this is going live i won't like it, the ground part will be no challenge.
Missiles builds are ineffective unless you stack up pre-selected synergy and mechanic interactions which suddenly turn them into decent shield drain weapons which also boost your other weapons. Missile builds do not work unless you are highly specialised.
“You know you can replicate those DURING the mission, right?” ?
Sure if you are prepared but my worry is some random STFs are not going be prepared. What happens when I queue Cure Applied advanced and a bunch of ransom’s join with space specs and are unprepared?
As I said before I do not expect all random STF players to be poor. When I queue up for something I want to be in that mission with people who want to do that mission and are prepared for it. Experience tells me random STF is going to increase the amount of unprepared people who didn’t want to be in that mission and who have the wrong specialization and possible missing key gear.
“Remember: this is not a replacement for queuing, just a side feature to help with population distribution problems across the board.)”
Which is my point it’s not helping. When I queue for a mission I want to be in a mission with people who planned to do that mission and hopefully prepared for it. If someone wants to do the mission they are more likely to know what they are doing and have the right setup to make the mission flow nice.
I do not want a bunch of random players who didn’t want that specific mission. The random player is much more likely less prepared and weaker which in turn is more likely to cause the mission to fail and cause a negative play experience.
“So why are you trying to argue (at length) for a space random queue in the first place? Seems odd to have such a strong opinion on something you have zero categorical interest in.”
There is no way to avoid it while using the standard queue method and it’s going to at times cause a negative play experience. It’s going to make teams weaker and cause higher fail rates. Not all the time but on advanced and Elite I see it causing problems.
I have has some bad experiences on advanced/elite with unprepared players and random STF is going to massively increase the amount of unprepared players in missions.
“Besides, queuing for random TFO's is what you do when you don't have a strong preference for what you want to play. Those objecting to the feature based on a strong preference (ie. no ground) should consider the context of their complaint (is it relevant to the system's function and intended use? Remember: this is not a replacement for queuing, just a side feature to help with population distribution problems across the board.)”
The flaw in your argument is the folk like me who are in eligible ground queues do not want to be in advanced/elite ground missions with space focused random players who don’t do ground and are unprepared. I would rather wait a few extra minutes for enough ground people who want to be in the mission to start it. Not have some random space STF’s player thrown in who doesn’t want to be in that mission. That option has been taken away from us and it’s a larger negative xprecined on gameplay.
This random STF could very well kill advanced/elite ground queues for me. Which is the opposite to its goal.
“STO isn't so egalitarian that all builds work equally well irrespective of context.”
Perhaps not equally but until this random STF thing I could take any build and not worry. It’s not a poor decision by the player it’s a poorly implanted new feature that isn’t fit for purpose.
For me the negatives of this random STF feature outweigh the positive so it’s a bad feature to implant that is going to make STO worse. Random STF is going to increase the amount of unprepared players in a team and that can lead to a negative play experience. More so in advanced/Elite then normal. The feature is also very misleading as its not really random.
Missiles builds are ineffective unless you stack up pre-selected synergy and mechanic interactions which suddenly turn them into decent shield drain weapons which also boost your other weapons. Missile builds do not work unless you are highly specialised.
And how does that require you to; a: not have ground gear of purple 12 or better, B: not have ground traits slotted, or C: not assign ground skill points?
Unless your theoretical build requires one of those somehow(which is impossible), then it is acceptable for use in normal or advanced ground TFOs.
The random player is much more likely less prepared and weaker which in turn is more likely to cause the mission to fail and cause a negative play experience.
This is the singular issue with the new system, more than build setups.
Queuing from private channels and fleets is still very popular. Those players are not going to queue with rando puggers for a chance at a handful of extra dil. The whole reason they joined the private chats was to IMPROVE their chances of completing content as well as completing it in a reasonable amount of time. This new system DECREASES the chances of completing content and probably increases completion time.
On the other hand, it would be nice to assign separate Specializations for space and ground. That would be a nice quality of life improvement.
Sure if you are prepared but my worry is some random STFs are not going be prepared.
ANYONE can replicate a remodulator at ANY time. There is no "being prepared" to it.
Who uses remodulators in TFOs? Thats just wrong on so many levels.
Someone who's not using omega rep gear or ground Defera for the upgraded device. It's a wide group.
Also: Pottsey, note how I summarized your post and provided a synthetic counter argument that addressed specific points as needed. Not going to waste thread space with your continued attempts at reflexive contradiction in expanding comment trees. The fact is that it's mechanically unnecessary to split ground and space queues because even a space-centric build [as decided only by two points of balance: active rep traits and specs] should be able to effectively participate with ground queues. You are over emphasizing the impact of those two factors to argue something which you (as explicitly stated) don't have any interest in and don't care about, if we indeed can take that last post as having an earnest argument to make (what I read was vague references to "preparation" and "negative play experience," without considering what those entail in quantifiable detail. Ie. Your argument isn't sufficient for critical evaluation. I can test my case and I've laid out the necessary parameters. They are quite simple.)
Note that you're now referencing elite random queues when those will not exist. I suggest you re-evaluate your position by 1. reading the blog (as well as the posts you're replying to, I've made multiple references to the fact that this is normal/advanced only) 2. testing the impact of using a space spec'ed build in normal/advanced ground queues (if you can even find a match in them ATM, that's the more severe problem this setup is trying address) and 3. reconsidering your motivation for engaging in an extended discussion in this thread (as again, you have no interest in using this feature regardless of how the space/ground question is handled.)
On the other hand, it would be nice to assign separate Specializations for space and ground. That would be a nice quality of life improvement.
I'm still on the fence about this one. While it would be a QoL improvement for how ground/space specs are handled for individual TFO's or battlezones (ex. "I'm going to grind ISA/CCA for a bit, no need to have commando slotted") the game still involves a lot of hybrid ground/space content through episodes. One can still view ground/space specialization as a gameplay trade off in a core area of the game and random space/ground queue is adding onto that (by providing another venue for effectively mixed ground/space combat.)
It wouldn't be the end of the world if there space/ground specific specs were concentrated or different slots provided, but STO's gameplay structure can still be said to support specialization in ground or space to a relatively minor degree. That's also not the end of the world (though the changing builds for top performance in a single TFO/battlezone is still going take a fiddly effort. Maybe including specs/traits in loadouts would be a QoL improvement touching on the mechanical problem of changing out for ground/space without affecting the last remaining ground/space trade-offs in STO if the devs feel strongly enough about keeping them for episodes and random queuing.)
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Sure if you are prepared but my worry is some random STFs are not going be prepared.
ANYONE can replicate a remodulator at ANY time. There is no "being prepared" to it.
Who uses remodulators in TFOs? Thats just wrong on so many levels.
Someone who's not using omega rep gear or ground Defera for the upgraded device. It's a wide group.
Also: Pottsey, note how I summarized your post and provided a synthetic counter argument that addressed specific points as needed. Not going to waste thread space with your continued attempts at reflexive contradiction in expanding comment trees. The fact is that it's mechanically unnecessary to split ground and space queues because even a space-centric build [as decided only by two points of balance: active rep traits and specs] should be able to effectively participate with ground queues. You are over emphasizing the impact of those two factors to argue something which you (as explicitly stated) don't have any interest in and don't care about, if we indeed can take that last post as having an earnest argument to make (what I read was vague references to "preparation" and "negative play experience," without considering what those entail in quantifiable detail. Ie. Your argument isn't sufficient for critical evaluation. I can test my case and I've laid out the necessary parameters. They are quite simple.)
Note that you're now referencing elite random queues when those will not exist. I suggest you re-evaluate your position by 1. reading the blog (as well as the posts you're replying to, I've made multiple references to the fact that this is normal/advanced only) 2. testing the impact of using a space spec'ed build in normal/advanced ground queues (if you can even find a match in them ATM, that's the more severe problem this setup is trying address) and 3. reconsidering your motivation for engaging in an extended discussion in this thread (as again, you have no interest in using this feature regardless of how the space/ground question is handled.)
On the other hand, it would be nice to assign separate Specializations for space and ground. That would be a nice quality of life improvement.
I'm still on the fence about this one. While it would be a QoL improvement for how ground/space specs are handled for individual TFO's or battlezones (ex. "I'm going to grind ISA/CCA for a bit, no need to have commando slotted") the game still involves a lot of hybrid ground/space content through episodes. One can still view ground/space specialization as a gameplay trade off in a core area of the game and random space/ground queue is adding onto that (by providing another venue for effectively mixed ground/space combat.)
It wouldn't be the end of the world if there space/ground specific specs were concentrated or different slots provided, but STO's gameplay structure can still be said to support specialization in ground or space to a relatively minor degree. That's also not the end of the world (though the changing builds for top performance in a single TFO/battlezone is still going take a fiddly effort. Maybe including specs/traits in loadouts would be a QoL improvement touching on the mechanical problem of changing out for ground/space without affecting the last remaining ground/space trade-offs in STO if the devs feel strongly enough about keeping them for episodes and random queuing.)
The simple fact is random STF have an increased chance to put the none random STF peoples teams at a disadvantage which increase the chance of a negative play experience and increase chance of failed missions. That is perfectly sufficient for critical evaluation.
For the multiple reasons listed its clear random STF player will at times be weaker with a noticeable drop in performance. Which in turn can have a negative impact on a teams performance. You argument is built around an unrealistic scenario where all random STF players will be effective participants and the drop in performance of the random STF player will not be enough to cause any negative impact on the team. Which is just not realistic. The drop in performance with a generic do everything build without specs being active added up per player across an entire team can be very noticeable and at times enough to cause missions to fail.
We all agree random STF players for many reasons can have a drop in performance. I have been in plenty of mission where the team was borderline or too weak to do the mission and if an even weaker random STF player with inactive wrong specs swaps into the team those borderline runs fall below the line into fail runs.
My motive is perfectly sound and while I do not care or want to use random STFs. What I do care about and what is a reasonable concern is random STF players will at times have a negative impact on none random STF teams. It’s perfectly logical to expect some random STF player will drop some team’s performance enough to cause mission fails. So my motives are clear, perhaps you should exam your motives and re-evaluate your position.
My other concern is that some space focused random players will see they are dropped into an advanced ground run and warp out leaving me with an AFK timer and failed play session. I also fully expect to see an increase in advanced space players who when it comes to advanced ground are below par and inexperienced which in turn will cause problems for the advanced ground runs for none random STF teams. It is going to leave a negative player experience being a none random STF person and ending up in a ground mission made up of random STF players like that.
“Pottsey, note how I summarized your post and provided a synthetic counter argument that addressed specific points as needed.”
No you didn’t provide an acceptable synthetic counter argument instead you did your normal deflecting and pretending the problem isn’t real while offering no solution. Then pretended the problem has been addressed when it has not.
Its funny how some people think that they don't have right to fail... STO is only MMO where you have almost 100% success rate in que, and any fail is like a glitch in system, while somehow challenging STFs lying dead in space, because "I have right to not fail" thinking... That elitist TRIBBLE killed every single STF in STO, and there is no RNG that can change that,as long as Cryptic goes along that elitist road...
Its funny how some people think that they don't have right to fail... STO is only MMO where you have almost 100% success rate in que, and any fail is like a glitch in system, while somehow challenging STFs lying dead in space, because "I have right to not fail" thinking... That elitist **** killed every single STF in STO, and there is no RNG that can change that,as long as Cryptic goes along that elitist road...
It’s not about a right not to fail. Its about having a bad experience due to randoms being thrown into your group when you are not playing random yourself. I would rather have zero randoms and only people who wanted to queue for the mission even if it means waiting longer for the mission to start.
I agree too many recent missions have been over streamlined. At the same time when I do a mission I want to be in a mission with people who wanted to do that mission. Not some random.
If random STF was independent of those of us not using random I would not have a problem with it. Why can they not put the random people into real random queues made up of only the random people? That would get rid of the negative impact of the system.
"We Want Your Feedback!"
"What excites you, or makes you anxious, about the prospect of opting into Randomized content, and why?" ...
The possibility of greater rewards is exciting via Bonus Rewards Bundle, from Common to Epic, however that is a bit neutralized since it is unknown how this will be delved-out. Will it be by a player's contribution to that queue? Or probably the usual unpublished statistics with gambling/randomness odds in STO that is pitiful & that's if it is operating without bias. I foresee a scenario where some AFKing player in a TFO gets an Epic Bonus Reward Bundle while the others get a Common. The anxious possibilities are far more & more likely: EV Suit needed, Specializations &/or Active Traits for space rather than ground or vice versa, now will offer "stee1maxing", which is just AFKing/sponging, in queues for even more rewards while dragging down a teams' efforts, & if in Advanced the disparity will be multiplied more since it is a greater challenge.
"Which existing TFOs do you hope see more play time under this system, and why?" ...
How about all of them that are currently queues since this is still queuing but just under another name with an added gimmick. Allow the current method to select a queue which a player wants then have this TFO as an added option. Pretty simple. I applaud an effort to get more unused content to be used, but if content isn't being used perhaps Cryptic should look in a mirror & ask themselves why & how to correct that which this very well might be, but so far most of the feedback seems negative but instead of listening & asking questions it seems Cryptic is stating this has already been decided.
"Which existing TFOs would you consider yourself ‘unlucky’ to be placed in, and why?" ...
Since this is still queuing I'd consider any player(s) 'unlucky' if placed into a TFO which they're not optimized for using their Specializations &/or Active Reputation Traits which if in an Advanced is even more crucial. Cryptic's whole intention by design of those Specialization Skill Points was so players could, even more so, optimize their characters in certain directions. This possibly handicaps players with having the wrong Specializations/Traits for a queue, & even worse at Advanced, let alone not all players feeling like participating in a queue, AFKing, but now for possibly greater reward. Not having a separation of space/ground TFOs seems contradictory to Cryptic's whole design & intent of the Specializations & Active Traits.
I like this mechanic as an addition to the normal selectable queuing plain & simple not a substitute. I'll probably try it out a couple of times, if bored, to see if it is worth the effort. I, so far, equivalent this TFO to that Endeavor system nowadays, if it is something I'm already going to be doing then cool, but not going to go out of my way to complete it unless easy & that's all because the rewards I get are all usually minimal.
deniskr87 wrote: »
Its funny how some people think that they don't have right to fail... STO is only MMO where you have almost 100% success rate in que, and any fail is like a glitch in system, while somehow challenging STFs lying dead in space, because "I have right to not fail" thinking... That elitist **** killed every single STF in STO, and there is no RNG that can change that,as long as Cryptic goes along that elitist road...
pottsey5g wrote: It’s not about a right not to fail. Its about having a bad experience due to randoms being thrown into your group when you are not playing random yourself. I would rather have zero randoms and only people who wanted to queue for the mission even if it means waiting longer for the mission to start.
I agree too many recent missions have been over streamlined. At the same time when I do a mission I want to be in a mission with people who wanted to do that mission. Not some random.
If random STF was independent of those of us not using random I would not have a problem with it. Why can they not put the random people into real random queues made up of only the random people? That would get rid of the negative impact of the system.
You have many MMOs that have only random ques, and you have many MMOs that use "player frustration" as part of making money , and most of those MMOs have more players in their "low time" than STO I peek time... "Bad experience" needs to be part of game in some dose, and in STO, you have only non experience, or 100% success experience in some closed elite channel.... So yeah... forcing players to do stuff together, and have some bad (and some good) experience together, is smart idea to make STO actually MMO for all, and not Single Player online game for most of player base, and MMO just for some players that are part of some elite group...
I think this system is going to work. Of all people interested to play every non crystal mission you now need only gather 5.
I happen to like ground - maybe better than space - so to me this is no issue. If you get one of the old borg ground missions that the new people have never seen it will get ugly. But it seems like an amusing roll of the dice.
I would guess it will continue to pop after the furor dies down - say within 30 seconds.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
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deniskr87 wrote: »
You have many MMOs that have only random ques, and you have many MMOs that use "player frustration" as part of making money , and most of those MMOs have more players in their "low time" than STO I peek time... "Bad experience" needs to be part of game in some dose, and in STO, you have only non experience, or 100% success experience in some closed elite channel.... So yeah... forcing players to do stuff together, and have some bad (and some good) experience together, is smart idea to make STO actually MMO for all, and not Single Player online game for most of player base, and MMO just for some players that are part of some elite group...
I fully agree there shouldn't be a 100% success rate and that STO end game content is in a worse ship today then in the first year of the game shipping. End game content has gone massively backwards. A bunch of missions have been made worse by the devs by being over streamlined. CE, No Win, Into the Breach all the borg STF's have all been made much worse with revamps and being over streamlined. But that solution to the to that problems isn't the random STF's.
Well, its an interesting attempt to breathe life into the dead queues and for that I hope it works. I do agree there should be two seperate lists for ground and space STFs.... TFOs since most players seem to hate/avoid ground STFs.
But me personally? I won't be using this feature. When I play an STF its usually because I want a specific reward-usually a specific kind of mark for the reputation I'm focusing on collecting for on that particular character. Randomizing it kinda defeats that purpose.
Well, its an interesting attempt to breathe life into the dead queues and for that I hope it works. I do agree there should be two seperate lists for ground and space STFs.... TFOs since most players seem to hate/avoid ground STFs.
But should a random queue system respect player bias when it's preferential bias that's ultimately responsible for queue population disparities? Separate lists is a natural suggestion (I made it some pages back) but...more and more I don't see it as the way to go because it would effectively neuter the benefit to an entire category of TFO's (for the sake of maintaining one set of biases while trying to counteract others.)
If this works, then it could make queuing for eligible dead queues viable at a stroke (random players will be matched to you regardless of what you pick from the list. You don't have to wait for convergence, only random queuing.) But, if there's two random queues (ground/space) then the bias for space TFO's will restrict that benefit only to some queues as opposed to all eligible queues. And good luck trying to retroactively combine ground/space random queues from there.
IMO, it's worth at least trying a single aggregated list and allow players to acclimate to both ground/space TFO's (as they've acclimiated to ground/space in featured episodes) because the benefits could be huge (with the cost being: challenging players to step outside their comfort zone, not the worst thing.) If ground proves too much of a deterrent then separation could conceivably be tried later.
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This is for the 'What We Can Teach Better...' Thread. They can teach people how to use editing on Quoted Posts so we don't perpetuate a wall of the same text over and over and over again in a Thread.
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l don't know.
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No you didn’t provide an acceptable synthetic counter argument instead you did your normal deflecting and pretending the problem isn’t real while offering no solution. Then pretended the problem has been addressed when it has not.
And you have yet to demonstrate that the problem is as bad as you claim it is.
It’s not about a right not to fail. Its about having a bad experience due to randoms being thrown into your group when you are not playing random yourself. I would rather have zero randoms and only people who wanted to queue for the mission even if it means waiting longer for the mission to start.
That's always true of PUGs. There are and will probably always be people queueing who have no idea what "ISA" means.... And that is the problem you're describing, "player X doesn't know the mission goals".
IMO, it's worth at least trying a single aggregated list and allow players to acclimate to both ground/space TFO's (as they've acclimiated to ground/space in featured episodes) because the benefits could be huge (with the cost being: challenging players to step outside their comfort zone, not the worst thing.) If ground proves too much of a deterrent then separation could conceivably be tried later.
I'm starting to like the idea of having the full random list, and two lesser random lists one for space and one for ground with the full random list having a larger bonus reward.
As somebody who playes teamed PvE exclusively I like the idea of the random lineup to funnel players so it’s a good idea and a step in the right direction.
I enjoy this game with my friends and fleet mates and 8 out of 10 games I do is via partial team-up (1-3 players) and then line up for a map.
Problems here are:
- New random que has no ground/space filter. That cuts the pool of players I have in FL/fleet willing to go for it roughly in half. (50% left)
- still no news about joint kdf/fed team-ups for PvE queue. That’s bad and will see to it that another half willing to go for the system has to stay behind each day. (25% left)
- Additional rewards are cool but could even be better. Unfortunately that does not address the main issue that we have major discrepancies between rewards on different maps. Since most players I know are forced to include economic aspects in your grind intense game I can see 10% of the players I know willing to give it a try. For the rest it’s simply too risky to end up in 15 minute close to zero reward scenarios.
- No elite mode? That’s too bad cuz half of the remaining 10% only play for challenges and don’t have them in advanced so we are down to 5%
- Sadly lots of the non-shooting activities tend to be annoying in PvE. Most annoying factor here feels the interaction disruption when firing or being fired upon. That’s really a downer. Get rid of it and PvE will be more fun allowing me to convince the remaining 5% that we could do something new besides ISA.
As things are now I’ll end up playing by myself again. Please Bort, use this opportunity to clean the house a bit more thorough. Anything else won’t do any good in the long run.
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As somebody who playes teamed PvE exclusively I like the idea of the random lineup to funnel players so it’s a good idea and a step in the right direction.
I enjoy this game with my friends and fleet mates and 8 out of 10 games I do is via partial team-up (1-3 players) and then line up for a map.
Problems here are:
- New random que has no ground/space filter. That cuts the pool of players I have in FL/fleet willing to go for it roughly in half. (50% left)
- still no news about joint kdf/fed team-ups for PvE queue. That’s bad and will see to it that another half willing to go for the system has to stay behind each day. (25% left)
- Additional rewards are cool but could even be better. Unfortunately that does not address the main issue that we have major discrepancies between rewards on different maps. Since most players I know are forced to include economic aspects in your grind intense game I can see 10% of the players I know willing to give it a try. For the rest it’s simply too risky to end up in 15 minute close to zero reward scenarios.
- No elite mode? That’s too bad cuz half of the remaining 10% only play for challenges and don’t have them in advanced so we are down to 5%
- Sadly lots of the non-shooting activities tend to be annoying in PvE. Most annoying factor here feels the interaction disruption when firing or being fired upon. That’s really a downer. Get rid of it and PvE will be more fun allowing me to convince the remaining 5% that we could do something new besides ISA.
As things are now I’ll end up playing by myself again. Please Bort, use this opportunity to clean the house a bit more thorough. Anything else won’t do any good in the long run.
Hate to always just agree with you.. but I agree with you on all points.
You and I will be doing a lot of 2 man runs going forward I guess.
“And you have yet to demonstrate that the problem is as bad as you claim it is.”
I never stated precisely how bad it will be as it’s impossible to know at this stage. But the facts I pointed out are correct and can happen. It is very easy to see how a mission like advance cure ground can go far less smoothly due to randoms.
While we do not know the ratio of how often it will happen as that ratio is random. It is a fact teams with random STF people in will end up weaker with worse performance at times. Worse case you could end up with a team of 4 or 5 all with zero specs which will make a noticeably worse team.
One would expect on average the team’s performance will drop with randoms. If on average over multiple runs performance is dropping you would expect an increased in failed missions due to teams mates being below the line.
Now I have no problem failing a mission if the entire team was committed to that map and planned to be there. But to have some random person(s) thrown into your team who are not commented and didn’t plan to run that map and then you fail due to them will be very frustrating leaving a negative play experience.
“That's always true of PUGs. There are and will probably always be people queueing who have no idea what "ISA" means.... And that is the problem you're describing, "player X doesn't know the mission goals"
My concern is it will be worse for randoms and there is no way I can avoid them while using PUG queue system. Even if they do know what they are doing they can guess wrong and end up with poor performance. I also expect random to be more likely to warp out due to landing in a mission they do not like not caring as they can swap to an alt. Also randoms are more likely to land in missions that they have no idea about. It seems more likely that we will get a negative team experience and more likely to get hit with an afk pen ruining play sessions due to randoms.
It’s all about wanting to run a map with people who planned to be there. Not some random people who had no plan to run that map. As they have no plan they are more likely to cause problems.
I have a solution but I don't expect the devs will listen. Create a timer say 5 or 10 mins and randoms only get put into queues that have not been filled in say 10mins if there are no such queues then make a queue 100% out of random people. That we can queue up and most of the time get people who planned to use that mission.
Comments
"How about you spec a healthy mix of both or choose one of the combi-specs?" Good point that I'm sure after enough time most players can achieve, but we all have to begin at the beginning & keep progressing like some players have them all filled.
"Part of not knowing what you face is, well, NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU FACE." If that's your fun that's great & run with it, but Cryptic's big-wigs & most players play to have fun. This being fun is even emphasized as the priority. With that logic you stated anytime we log-in to play why not randomly have us play or replay missions too all at random? Or no more specific loot, just randomize that too? Best possibly yet, I log-into STO to play for fun & by Cryptic's randomness it has me play EVE Online instead or another game.
"pre-setting yourself defeats the purpose of that." That statement is ridiculous since it contradicts how Cryptic has laid-out the whole Specialization Skill Points in the first place with the earn them, choose which ones we want to improve with to get better & progress especially since they cannot be reskilled. Cryptic designed the Specialization Skill Point feature to allow players to pre-set ourselves lol.
"If you are uncomfortable with that, don't queue randomly." This I agree with if one wants to gamble even more with randomness in STO then go for the random queuing & maybe earn more rewards, but this shouldn't by any means cease the ability to select a queue one particularly wants to play at that time & the rewards it offers.
"Also, a spec doesn't make or creak a build. Don't act like it's mandatory." I agree & true too, but it definitely helps & I'm guessing that's why it was implemented into the game so players can progress & better their characters playing STO content. I think just make all Specialization Skill Trees active all the time then this TFO randomness negative possibility is moot.
I'll probably try this TFO a couple of times before I decide I like it or not, but I want the option of still being able to select which queue I want like it is now for the rewards it is accustomed to rewarding. If Cryptic wants players to play more of the content that isn't usually being utilized as much as other content I suggest using more carrot rather than stick. If content in games isn't being played it isn't the players' majority at fault it is the creators. Also, Cryptic should announce for sale Specialization Skill Tree Retrain Tokens when this goes active. That would be classic.
Keep in mind that you don't need any gear better than purple 12. Also, you don't need to choose between investing in space and ground skills, so people who specialize in space have the same number of skill points for ground as those who actually like ground. You don't need any of the T5 rep traits for normal or advanced really and you have the same number of ground trait slots as space. Which leaves spec trees... And you really don't need those for normal at all. You know you can replicate those DURING the mission, right?
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The problems encountered by overspecialization in this context are a negative (hence your complaints), though they are non-critical (according to the game's balance and mechanics) or indeed completely imaginary (see. failing to run a real test.)
The argument here is that Crytpic needs to provide two separate random queues to cater for ground/space preferences. However, STO has a strong emphasis on featured episodes that include both space and ground. If a player needs special accommodation for normal and advanced ground PVE queues (because for some reason they haven't adjusted their ground build to take into account space spec use), then by the consistent application of logic they also need help with playing mission content at normal/advanced. However, I have never seen cogent feedback to this effect, particularly from people who take their ground builds to the maximum possible level and see a mistimed module (due to lacking an ancillary spec bonus) as tantamount to an unusable build. I have seen folks complain about the difficulty of ground combat, but from the standpoint of personal preference or insufficient effort/attention put into their ground builds (particularly in the context of a new enemy type which is challenging old patterns.) In which cases: spec tree selection may be a factor worth considering but it's not the primary source of frustration (either its preference or a larger problem with their build.)
Being queued for Ground may be slightly inconvenient while using certain space-centric builds, but you will note that not knowing what enemy you're going to face in a random queue also poses some points of suboptimizination. Yet, you're not asking for queue subdivision based on faction. You are, without considering context or proportion, only asking for certain points of suboptimization be accommodated for via a major change of policy (which would affect the ability to play ground TFO's in real terms, given the population bias for space TFO's.)
Ie. You are complaining about one isolated negative while advocating for another much more severe negative. It's a trade off and Cryptic apparently views the population benefit from everyone in the random rotation potentially contributing to ground TFO's as worth the minor inconvenience of suboptimal spec choice at the lower difficulty levels. On reviewing the problem a bit more, I'm completely fine with that. Loosing max deeps in some restricted scenarios (that result from my choices, as if there are compromises to be had in specialization) is worth allowing folks who to find matches in eligible gorund queues more consistently. My numbers don't take priority over the binary state of playable: yes/no?
Besides, queuing for random TFO's is what you do when you don't have a strong preference for what you want to play. Those objecting to the feature based on a strong preference (ie. no ground) should consider the context of their complaint (is it relevant to the system's function and intended use? Remember: this is not a replacement for queuing, just a side feature to help with population distribution problems across the board.)
So why are you trying to argue (at length) for a space random queue in the first place? Seems odd to have such a strong opinion on something you have zero categorical interest in.
Because player decisions should affect gameplay? STO isn't so egalitarian that all builds work equally well irrespective of context. If you're making a poor decision, in the context of what you're playing, then the recommendation is for you to change your build to accommodate.
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Although I can empathize with those that may prefer not to be suboptimal, and hope that Cryptic takes player feedback seriously, I can't think of any normal or advanced queue in a ground/space mix that couldn't be completed because of one secondary specialization not being the optimal choice nor a build that would be rendered useless.
At the very least if you have a build that uses say Strategist for cool downs in space you could keep that and miss out on Commando for ground. Most primary specs contain both space and ground components aside from pilot?
It would be interesting to hear some specific details if something is being missed here and there really are builds with a spec combo that would render it unusable for mixed use.
If i read this right, its only normal and advanced Q?, for ground i only play Elite, so if this is going live i won't like it, the ground part will be no challenge.
Sure if you are prepared but my worry is some random STFs are not going be prepared. What happens when I queue Cure Applied advanced and a bunch of ransom’s join with space specs and are unprepared?
As I said before I do not expect all random STF players to be poor. When I queue up for something I want to be in that mission with people who want to do that mission and are prepared for it. Experience tells me random STF is going to increase the amount of unprepared people who didn’t want to be in that mission and who have the wrong specialization and possible missing key gear.
That’s not true. While you can start any queue without the correct gear there are a handful that with the wrong gear the mission can be impossible.
You don’t need to run a real test to see that random STF can create the negative play experience I described for someone who is not using random STF. Which is my point it’s not helping. When I queue for a mission I want to be in a mission with people who planned to do that mission and hopefully prepared for it. If someone wants to do the mission they are more likely to know what they are doing and have the right setup to make the mission flow nice.
I do not want a bunch of random players who didn’t want that specific mission. The random player is much more likely less prepared and weaker which in turn is more likely to cause the mission to fail and cause a negative play experience.
There is no way to avoid it while using the standard queue method and it’s going to at times cause a negative play experience. It’s going to make teams weaker and cause higher fail rates. Not all the time but on advanced and Elite I see it causing problems.
I have has some bad experiences on advanced/elite with unprepared players and random STF is going to massively increase the amount of unprepared players in missions.
The flaw in your argument is the folk like me who are in eligible ground queues do not want to be in advanced/elite ground missions with space focused random players who don’t do ground and are unprepared. I would rather wait a few extra minutes for enough ground people who want to be in the mission to start it. Not have some random space STF’s player thrown in who doesn’t want to be in that mission. That option has been taken away from us and it’s a larger negative xprecined on gameplay.
This random STF could very well kill advanced/elite ground queues for me. Which is the opposite to its goal.
Perhaps not equally but until this random STF thing I could take any build and not worry. It’s not a poor decision by the player it’s a poorly implanted new feature that isn’t fit for purpose.
For me the negatives of this random STF feature outweigh the positive so it’s a bad feature to implant that is going to make STO worse. Random STF is going to increase the amount of unprepared players in a team and that can lead to a negative play experience. More so in advanced/Elite then normal. The feature is also very misleading as its not really random.
Unless your theoretical build requires one of those somehow(which is impossible), then it is acceptable for use in normal or advanced ground TFOs. ANYONE can replicate a remodulator at ANY time. There is no "being prepared" to it.
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Who uses remodulators in TFOs? Thats just wrong on so many levels.
Queuing from private channels and fleets is still very popular. Those players are not going to queue with rando puggers for a chance at a handful of extra dil. The whole reason they joined the private chats was to IMPROVE their chances of completing content as well as completing it in a reasonable amount of time. This new system DECREASES the chances of completing content and probably increases completion time.
On the other hand, it would be nice to assign separate Specializations for space and ground. That would be a nice quality of life improvement.
Someone who's not using omega rep gear or ground Defera for the upgraded device. It's a wide group.
Also: Pottsey, note how I summarized your post and provided a synthetic counter argument that addressed specific points as needed. Not going to waste thread space with your continued attempts at reflexive contradiction in expanding comment trees. The fact is that it's mechanically unnecessary to split ground and space queues because even a space-centric build [as decided only by two points of balance: active rep traits and specs] should be able to effectively participate with ground queues. You are over emphasizing the impact of those two factors to argue something which you (as explicitly stated) don't have any interest in and don't care about, if we indeed can take that last post as having an earnest argument to make (what I read was vague references to "preparation" and "negative play experience," without considering what those entail in quantifiable detail. Ie. Your argument isn't sufficient for critical evaluation. I can test my case and I've laid out the necessary parameters. They are quite simple.)
Note that you're now referencing elite random queues when those will not exist. I suggest you re-evaluate your position by 1. reading the blog (as well as the posts you're replying to, I've made multiple references to the fact that this is normal/advanced only) 2. testing the impact of using a space spec'ed build in normal/advanced ground queues (if you can even find a match in them ATM, that's the more severe problem this setup is trying address) and 3. reconsidering your motivation for engaging in an extended discussion in this thread (as again, you have no interest in using this feature regardless of how the space/ground question is handled.)
I'm still on the fence about this one. While it would be a QoL improvement for how ground/space specs are handled for individual TFO's or battlezones (ex. "I'm going to grind ISA/CCA for a bit, no need to have commando slotted") the game still involves a lot of hybrid ground/space content through episodes. One can still view ground/space specialization as a gameplay trade off in a core area of the game and random space/ground queue is adding onto that (by providing another venue for effectively mixed ground/space combat.)
It wouldn't be the end of the world if there space/ground specific specs were concentrated or different slots provided, but STO's gameplay structure can still be said to support specialization in ground or space to a relatively minor degree. That's also not the end of the world (though the changing builds for top performance in a single TFO/battlezone is still going take a fiddly effort. Maybe including specs/traits in loadouts would be a QoL improvement touching on the mechanical problem of changing out for ground/space without affecting the last remaining ground/space trade-offs in STO if the devs feel strongly enough about keeping them for episodes and random queuing.)
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For the multiple reasons listed its clear random STF player will at times be weaker with a noticeable drop in performance. Which in turn can have a negative impact on a teams performance. You argument is built around an unrealistic scenario where all random STF players will be effective participants and the drop in performance of the random STF player will not be enough to cause any negative impact on the team. Which is just not realistic. The drop in performance with a generic do everything build without specs being active added up per player across an entire team can be very noticeable and at times enough to cause missions to fail.
We all agree random STF players for many reasons can have a drop in performance. I have been in plenty of mission where the team was borderline or too weak to do the mission and if an even weaker random STF player with inactive wrong specs swaps into the team those borderline runs fall below the line into fail runs.
My motive is perfectly sound and while I do not care or want to use random STFs. What I do care about and what is a reasonable concern is random STF players will at times have a negative impact on none random STF teams. It’s perfectly logical to expect some random STF player will drop some team’s performance enough to cause mission fails. So my motives are clear, perhaps you should exam your motives and re-evaluate your position.
My other concern is that some space focused random players will see they are dropped into an advanced ground run and warp out leaving me with an AFK timer and failed play session. I also fully expect to see an increase in advanced space players who when it comes to advanced ground are below par and inexperienced which in turn will cause problems for the advanced ground runs for none random STF teams. It is going to leave a negative player experience being a none random STF person and ending up in a ground mission made up of random STF players like that.
No you didn’t provide an acceptable synthetic counter argument instead you did your normal deflecting and pretending the problem isn’t real while offering no solution. Then pretended the problem has been addressed when it has not.
I agree too many recent missions have been over streamlined. At the same time when I do a mission I want to be in a mission with people who wanted to do that mission. Not some random.
If random STF was independent of those of us not using random I would not have a problem with it. Why can they not put the random people into real random queues made up of only the random people? That would get rid of the negative impact of the system.
"What excites you, or makes you anxious, about the prospect of opting into Randomized content, and why?" ...
The possibility of greater rewards is exciting via Bonus Rewards Bundle, from Common to Epic, however that is a bit neutralized since it is unknown how this will be delved-out. Will it be by a player's contribution to that queue? Or probably the usual unpublished statistics with gambling/randomness odds in STO that is pitiful & that's if it is operating without bias. I foresee a scenario where some AFKing player in a TFO gets an Epic Bonus Reward Bundle while the others get a Common. The anxious possibilities are far more & more likely: EV Suit needed, Specializations &/or Active Traits for space rather than ground or vice versa, now will offer "stee1maxing", which is just AFKing/sponging, in queues for even more rewards while dragging down a teams' efforts, & if in Advanced the disparity will be multiplied more since it is a greater challenge.
"Which existing TFOs do you hope see more play time under this system, and why?" ...
How about all of them that are currently queues since this is still queuing but just under another name with an added gimmick. Allow the current method to select a queue which a player wants then have this TFO as an added option. Pretty simple. I applaud an effort to get more unused content to be used, but if content isn't being used perhaps Cryptic should look in a mirror & ask themselves why & how to correct that which this very well might be, but so far most of the feedback seems negative but instead of listening & asking questions it seems Cryptic is stating this has already been decided.
"Which existing TFOs would you consider yourself ‘unlucky’ to be placed in, and why?" ...
Since this is still queuing I'd consider any player(s) 'unlucky' if placed into a TFO which they're not optimized for using their Specializations &/or Active Reputation Traits which if in an Advanced is even more crucial. Cryptic's whole intention by design of those Specialization Skill Points was so players could, even more so, optimize their characters in certain directions. This possibly handicaps players with having the wrong Specializations/Traits for a queue, & even worse at Advanced, let alone not all players feeling like participating in a queue, AFKing, but now for possibly greater reward. Not having a separation of space/ground TFOs seems contradictory to Cryptic's whole design & intent of the Specializations & Active Traits.
I like this mechanic as an addition to the normal selectable queuing plain & simple not a substitute. I'll probably try it out a couple of times, if bored, to see if it is worth the effort. I, so far, equivalent this TFO to that Endeavor system nowadays, if it is something I'm already going to be doing then cool, but not going to go out of my way to complete it unless easy & that's all because the rewards I get are all usually minimal.
Its funny how some people think that they don't have right to fail... STO is only MMO where you have almost 100% success rate in que, and any fail is like a glitch in system, while somehow challenging STFs lying dead in space, because "I have right to not fail" thinking... That elitist **** killed every single STF in STO, and there is no RNG that can change that,as long as Cryptic goes along that elitist road...
pottsey5g wrote: It’s not about a right not to fail. Its about having a bad experience due to randoms being thrown into your group when you are not playing random yourself. I would rather have zero randoms and only people who wanted to queue for the mission even if it means waiting longer for the mission to start.
I agree too many recent missions have been over streamlined. At the same time when I do a mission I want to be in a mission with people who wanted to do that mission. Not some random.
If random STF was independent of those of us not using random I would not have a problem with it. Why can they not put the random people into real random queues made up of only the random people? That would get rid of the negative impact of the system.
You have many MMOs that have only random ques, and you have many MMOs that use "player frustration" as part of making money , and most of those MMOs have more players in their "low time" than STO I peek time... "Bad experience" needs to be part of game in some dose, and in STO, you have only non experience, or 100% success experience in some closed elite channel.... So yeah... forcing players to do stuff together, and have some bad (and some good) experience together, is smart idea to make STO actually MMO for all, and not Single Player online game for most of player base, and MMO just for some players that are part of some elite group...
I happen to like ground - maybe better than space - so to me this is no issue. If you get one of the old borg ground missions that the new people have never seen it will get ugly. But it seems like an amusing roll of the dice.
I would guess it will continue to pop after the furor dies down - say within 30 seconds.
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But me personally? I won't be using this feature. When I play an STF its usually because I want a specific reward-usually a specific kind of mark for the reputation I'm focusing on collecting for on that particular character. Randomizing it kinda defeats that purpose.
But should a random queue system respect player bias when it's preferential bias that's ultimately responsible for queue population disparities? Separate lists is a natural suggestion (I made it some pages back) but...more and more I don't see it as the way to go because it would effectively neuter the benefit to an entire category of TFO's (for the sake of maintaining one set of biases while trying to counteract others.)
If this works, then it could make queuing for eligible dead queues viable at a stroke (random players will be matched to you regardless of what you pick from the list. You don't have to wait for convergence, only random queuing.) But, if there's two random queues (ground/space) then the bias for space TFO's will restrict that benefit only to some queues as opposed to all eligible queues. And good luck trying to retroactively combine ground/space random queues from there.
IMO, it's worth at least trying a single aggregated list and allow players to acclimate to both ground/space TFO's (as they've acclimiated to ground/space in featured episodes) because the benefits could be huge (with the cost being: challenging players to step outside their comfort zone, not the worst thing.) If ground proves too much of a deterrent then separation could conceivably be tried later.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
My character Tsin'xing
As somebody who playes teamed PvE exclusively I like the idea of the random lineup to funnel players so it’s a good idea and a step in the right direction.
I enjoy this game with my friends and fleet mates and 8 out of 10 games I do is via partial team-up (1-3 players) and then line up for a map.
Problems here are:
- New random que has no ground/space filter. That cuts the pool of players I have in FL/fleet willing to go for it roughly in half. (50% left)
- still no news about joint kdf/fed team-ups for PvE queue. That’s bad and will see to it that another half willing to go for the system has to stay behind each day. (25% left)
- Additional rewards are cool but could even be better. Unfortunately that does not address the main issue that we have major discrepancies between rewards on different maps. Since most players I know are forced to include economic aspects in your grind intense game I can see 10% of the players I know willing to give it a try. For the rest it’s simply too risky to end up in 15 minute close to zero reward scenarios.
- No elite mode? That’s too bad cuz half of the remaining 10% only play for challenges and don’t have them in advanced so we are down to 5%
- Sadly lots of the non-shooting activities tend to be annoying in PvE. Most annoying factor here feels the interaction disruption when firing or being fired upon. That’s really a downer. Get rid of it and PvE will be more fun allowing me to convince the remaining 5% that we could do something new besides ISA.
As things are now I’ll end up playing by myself again. Please Bort, use this opportunity to clean the house a bit more thorough. Anything else won’t do any good in the long run.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Hate to always just agree with you.. but I agree with you on all points.
You and I will be doing a lot of 2 man runs going forward I guess.
While we do not know the ratio of how often it will happen as that ratio is random. It is a fact teams with random STF people in will end up weaker with worse performance at times. Worse case you could end up with a team of 4 or 5 all with zero specs which will make a noticeably worse team.
One would expect on average the team’s performance will drop with randoms. If on average over multiple runs performance is dropping you would expect an increased in failed missions due to teams mates being below the line.
Now I have no problem failing a mission if the entire team was committed to that map and planned to be there. But to have some random person(s) thrown into your team who are not commented and didn’t plan to run that map and then you fail due to them will be very frustrating leaving a negative play experience.
My concern is it will be worse for randoms and there is no way I can avoid them while using PUG queue system. Even if they do know what they are doing they can guess wrong and end up with poor performance. I also expect random to be more likely to warp out due to landing in a mission they do not like not caring as they can swap to an alt. Also randoms are more likely to land in missions that they have no idea about. It seems more likely that we will get a negative team experience and more likely to get hit with an afk pen ruining play sessions due to randoms.
It’s all about wanting to run a map with people who planned to be there. Not some random people who had no plan to run that map. As they have no plan they are more likely to cause problems.
I have a solution but I don't expect the devs will listen. Create a timer say 5 or 10 mins and randoms only get put into queues that have not been filled in say 10mins if there are no such queues then make a queue 100% out of random people. That we can queue up and most of the time get people who planned to use that mission.