rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
We're not talking about the canon Klingon weapons though. We're comparing them to STO's high tier Disruptor bolt weapons. You know... the ones with the added pointy bits to show they're higher tier?
I mean we all would love to be able to use the Mark I visuals on the Disruptor Pistol, but we can't.
yeah, it stabs you in the leg when you holster it.
Isn't that true of pretty much all Klingon weapons?
surprisingly NO. Until Discovery aired, Klingon weapons were first and foremost practical items, a little bland technologically, and not covered in unnecessary "SPYKES!!!!".
If you remove the unnecessary spikes from the bat'leth this is what you end up with, a practical weapon.
Also note:
+5 spikes and a material finish that's referenced in DSC-era Klingon melee weapons used by a house that invokes Kahless more directly than other parts of the Empire. You might think they're making visual references to augment spoken dialog, or that DSC doesn't reference canon at all and these direct links are the product of sequential random coincidence and an assumed probability (see. multiplication rule and range of possible creative decisions) that's best expressed with scientific notation.
Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
Its the one hook that is the issue as far as I can see. Remove that, and flip those ends to face forward and its more in line with the Bat'leths that we know.
And turn those back curved points forward on the Kelvin one and it would be better as well.
except you can't hold a Discovery Batt'leth (or use it) without risk of stabbing yourself. you CAN hold the one in your picture without that risk, and it CAN be used without that risk.
The other melee weapons are much more sensible (on Klingon terms):
The possibility of self-stabbing I just take as the DSC bat'leth favors a different style of combat (more overhand, using one grip, with the back spikes there for a quick return). You'll note it's also asymmetrical (favoring that initial chop). It would be nice if this was made a point for a future episode (dig into the culture more and how weapons relate, and be sure the choreography sticks to principles) but for now it's just suggestive (which isn't bad for sci-fi to do, not all worldbuilding requires exposition. In this case though they could definitely be saying more.)
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^^^
The rights holders to the Stargate:SG1 TV franchise called; they'd like their Goa'uld Death Glider back and they promise not to sue.
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I like that Aliens and Alien ships look more Alien
always bugged me how all the ships in Trek could be from the same fleet and some were just redressed of other ships with different colors
And aliens were just Humans with make up
But my only beef with the DISCO Klingon ships besides some being really ugly although the BOP has grown on me is that they all look so different from each other like they are from different fleets , would have made more sense if each house had their own designs but really some ships are completely different from the others like they couldn't decide what to go with and just went with all of them after raiding the Stargate Sound Stage
at least the Feds look like they are from the same Fleet which is funny cause it would make more sense at this time that the Federation fleet would be different alien ships from each member but they all use Star Fleet designs
If you remove the unnecessary spikes from the bat'leth this is what you end up with, a practical weapon.
Err no, you really don't end up with a katana, the bat'leth is a two sided two handed weapon and I am sure there are other weapons like that which the bat'leth compares to more than an actual katana.
But my only beef with the DISCO Klingon ships besides some being really ugly although the BOP has grown on me is that they all look so different from each other like they are from different fleets , would have made more sense if each house had their own designs but really some ships are completely different from the others like they couldn't decide what to go with and just went with all of them after raiding the Stargate Sound Stage
Well that's how I view it. Other than the BoPs, which I think are shared, everything seems to be coming from different houses. In a way its kinda like the Successor States in Battletech. While there are some shared battlemech designs between all five of them, they also have their own designs that are easily identifiable as House Liao or House Davion. You might see a few outside of those Successor States, but those were either captured, salvaged, or bought.
They made it pretty clear that the Klingon Empire wasn't unified yet in Discovery. We know that at some point it will be and designs will be more uniform. Hell... they may very well be working on the D7 we're all familiar with using data gathered from the war with the Federation. Taking what works from their current designs, and implimenting what they learned. BUT I will note one thing. The color scheme seems to be right, at least in regards to the BoP. D7s in TOS were grey. Discovery BoPs are grey.
*shrug*
Only time will tell.
I have to say... the alien monoculture thing is especially weird when people apply it to space ships. I mean, are all Romulan ships designed in-universe by the same person? No. So why should they all look the same?
no, and ships, fighters, bombers and tanks aren't all designed by the same person either, but most nation's hardware still manages to share enough similarity that you can tell what nation it's from if you have enough experience with their design spectrum
the same SHOULD be true of starships, and was in star trek up until 2017
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Pretty much only TNG batleth is the only functional one. Discovery/Kelvin ones were clearly designed from an onscreen look perspective and obviously by someone who never considered how they were to be used. A TNG batleth is actually a really good melee weapon, protects your hands/multiple cutting edges/good for thrusting/slashing/stabbing and it isnt easy to inflict injury onto yourself.
Ive seen plenty of badly designed IRL blades knives/swords etc. People get to caught up in the fantasy look or just dont consider hand placement. A weapon that serves to injure its own wielder is no weapon at all.
no, and ships, fighters, bombers and tanks aren't all designed by the same person either, but most nation's hardware still manages to share enough similarity that you can tell what nation it's from if you have enough experience with their design spectrum
the same SHOULD be true of starships, and was in star trek up until 2017
If you're comparing an F-16 to an F-22 those were designed by the same group of people. But an SR-71? Shares some similarities to a F-22 but not much with an F-16. And those are all high-speed jet aircraft. Now something that's actually a different kind of aircraft? Say a B-52? doesn't even vaguely resemble an SR-71 other than both having wings. Why? because Lockheed-Martin jet aircraft ARE derivatives of the same basic frame design. A B-52 is not derived from that design lineage.
Now when you have interstellar civilizations that span dozens of worlds, especially ones like the Klingons who have reasons for each House to make their own designs. Why would they have a single design lineage?
Oh and for fun... which of these are US and which are Russian?
Yeah, this is one of those "form follows function" things. High-speed jets tend to look similar because they are designed to do a specific thing well, and while there are theoretically infinite ways to do it, they tend to look very similar. Same with long range bombers.
the bat'leth is a two sided two handed weapon and I am sure there are other weapons like that which the bat'leth compares to more than an actual katana.
See comment: "remove the unnecessary spikes and that's what you end up with." (paraphrasing) One of those spikes is the other half of the bat'leth which isn't participating in the one-grip vertical chop which is (mechanically) the most effective use of the weapon (Katana fashion).
If you try to use both hand grips to parry or stab with it, the axis of rotation is in the midpoint of the weapon (versus one end). This means that the mechanical advantage is being cut drastically while also constraining your range of motion (holding both arms at a distance.) It's very ineffectual as practical weapons go. Yet, this is an intrinsic part of Klingon culture. Ergo, Klingon culture is itself based on style that forgoes practical considerations in order to hold to a fashionable ideal. It's not utilitarian, and again this is core to Klingon identity.
So, I find it difficult to accept criticisms of DSC Klingons for indulging in style over militaristic minimalism (which compliments the extremist nature of T'Kuvma's following, their over-indulgence in Klingon style [see. ornamental spikes, Sword of Kahless style], and assumed cultural superiority.) This is not how Klingons in TNG or TOS should be (they've gone too far), that's reinforced both in dialog and visuals, and it parallels analogous transformations in the FED to create a fairly good bit of sci-fi story telling through world-building arcs (which we know they're continuing with in season 2.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Only things I liked were the interiors and the Klingon pistols. Other than that...meh.
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to give an example of where my thinking is, here are some real-life examples of silly gear that seems to fall somewhere on the scale of thinking behind ST:D's Klingon gear...
1st and 4th are USA, (F-35A and B-52 Stratofortress respectively) 2nd and 3rd are russian (Sukhoi_T-50 and Tu-95 respectively)
Damn you Shadowfang! Beat me to the punch. Well done, Sir!
"Sukhoi_T-50"Yeah, pretty sure he copy pasted the file name text.
Point still stands regardless. My point was that the difference between a fighter jet and a strategic bomber is greater than the difference between a Russian design and a US design.
> @markhawkman said: > majorcharvenak wrote: » > > shadowfang240 wrote: » > > 1st and 4th are USA, (F-35A and B-52 Stratofortress respectively) 2nd and 3rd are russian (Sukhoi_T-50 and Tu-95 respectively) > > > > Damn you Shadowfang! Beat me to the punch. Well done, Sir! > > > > "Sukhoi_T-50"Yeah, pretty sure he copy pasted the file name text. > > Point still stands regardless. My point was that the difference between a fighter jet and a strategic bomber is greater than the difference between a Russian design and a US design.
Well could look at the American BB then the TU160. Such a knock off the 160 is.
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Comments
I mean we all would love to be able to use the Mark I visuals on the Disruptor Pistol, but we can't.
It's a line from Star Trek VI - sort of.
If you remove the unnecessary spikes from the bat'leth this is what you end up with, a practical weapon.
Also note:
+5 spikes and a material finish that's referenced in DSC-era Klingon melee weapons used by a house that invokes Kahless more directly than other parts of the Empire. You might think they're making visual references to augment spoken dialog, or that DSC doesn't reference canon at all and these direct links are the product of sequential random coincidence and an assumed probability (see. multiplication rule and range of possible creative decisions) that's best expressed with scientific notation.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Its the one hook that is the issue as far as I can see. Remove that, and flip those ends to face forward and its more in line with the Bat'leths that we know.
And turn those back curved points forward on the Kelvin one and it would be better as well.
The other melee weapons are much more sensible (on Klingon terms):
The possibility of self-stabbing I just take as the DSC bat'leth favors a different style of combat (more overhand, using one grip, with the back spikes there for a quick return). You'll note it's also asymmetrical (favoring that initial chop). It would be nice if this was made a point for a future episode (dig into the culture more and how weapons relate, and be sure the choreography sticks to principles) but for now it's just suggestive (which isn't bad for sci-fi to do, not all worldbuilding requires exposition. In this case though they could definitely be saying more.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
^^^
The rights holders to the Stargate:SG1 TV franchise called; they'd like their Goa'uld Death Glider back and they promise not to sue.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
always bugged me how all the ships in Trek could be from the same fleet and some were just redressed of other ships with different colors
And aliens were just Humans with make up
But my only beef with the DISCO Klingon ships besides some being really ugly although the BOP has grown on me is that they all look so different from each other like they are from different fleets , would have made more sense if each house had their own designs but really some ships are completely different from the others like they couldn't decide what to go with and just went with all of them after raiding the Stargate Sound Stage
at least the Feds look like they are from the same Fleet which is funny cause it would make more sense at this time that the Federation fleet would be different alien ships from each member but they all use Star Fleet designs
My character Tsin'xing
Well that's how I view it. Other than the BoPs, which I think are shared, everything seems to be coming from different houses. In a way its kinda like the Successor States in Battletech. While there are some shared battlemech designs between all five of them, they also have their own designs that are easily identifiable as House Liao or House Davion. You might see a few outside of those Successor States, but those were either captured, salvaged, or bought.
They made it pretty clear that the Klingon Empire wasn't unified yet in Discovery. We know that at some point it will be and designs will be more uniform. Hell... they may very well be working on the D7 we're all familiar with using data gathered from the war with the Federation. Taking what works from their current designs, and implimenting what they learned. BUT I will note one thing. The color scheme seems to be right, at least in regards to the BoP. D7s in TOS were grey. Discovery BoPs are grey.
*shrug*
Only time will tell.
My character Tsin'xing
the same SHOULD be true of starships, and was in star trek up until 2017
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Ive seen plenty of badly designed IRL blades knives/swords etc. People get to caught up in the fantasy look or just dont consider hand placement. A weapon that serves to injure its own wielder is no weapon at all.
Now when you have interstellar civilizations that span dozens of worlds, especially ones like the Klingons who have reasons for each House to make their own designs. Why would they have a single design lineage?
Oh and for fun... which of these are US and which are Russian?
Yeah, this is one of those "form follows function" things. High-speed jets tend to look similar because they are designed to do a specific thing well, and while there are theoretically infinite ways to do it, they tend to look very similar. Same with long range bombers.
My character Tsin'xing
See comment: "remove the unnecessary spikes and that's what you end up with." (paraphrasing) One of those spikes is the other half of the bat'leth which isn't participating in the one-grip vertical chop which is (mechanically) the most effective use of the weapon (Katana fashion).
If you try to use both hand grips to parry or stab with it, the axis of rotation is in the midpoint of the weapon (versus one end). This means that the mechanical advantage is being cut drastically while also constraining your range of motion (holding both arms at a distance.) It's very ineffectual as practical weapons go. Yet, this is an intrinsic part of Klingon culture. Ergo, Klingon culture is itself based on style that forgoes practical considerations in order to hold to a fashionable ideal. It's not utilitarian, and again this is core to Klingon identity.
So, I find it difficult to accept criticisms of DSC Klingons for indulging in style over militaristic minimalism (which compliments the extremist nature of T'Kuvma's following, their over-indulgence in Klingon style [see. ornamental spikes, Sword of Kahless style], and assumed cultural superiority.) This is not how Klingons in TNG or TOS should be (they've gone too far), that's reinforced both in dialog and visuals, and it parallels analogous transformations in the FED to create a fairly good bit of sci-fi story telling through world-building arcs (which we know they're continuing with in season 2.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Now, I want an TRIBBLE bat'leth with a "tac-sac" attachment. It just seems fitting.
Damn you Shadowfang! Beat me to the punch. Well done, Sir!
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Point still stands regardless. My point was that the difference between a fighter jet and a strategic bomber is greater than the difference between a Russian design and a US design.
My character Tsin'xing
> majorcharvenak wrote: »
>
> shadowfang240 wrote: »
>
> 1st and 4th are USA, (F-35A and B-52 Stratofortress respectively) 2nd and 3rd are russian (Sukhoi_T-50 and Tu-95 respectively)
>
>
>
> Damn you Shadowfang! Beat me to the punch. Well done, Sir!
>
>
>
> "Sukhoi_T-50"Yeah, pretty sure he copy pasted the file name text.
>
> Point still stands regardless. My point was that the difference between a fighter jet and a strategic bomber is greater than the difference between a Russian design and a US design.
Well could look at the American BB then the TU160. Such a knock off the 160 is.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1