rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
markhawkman is kinda right. And its not just in aircraft that we see this.
If we compare nuclear submarines from the Cold War, we see two different design styles. HOWEVER, those designs are really only noticeable in the Balastic Missile Subs. The Attack Subs only have minor differences really.
American:
Soviet:
As shown here, the American Los Angeles class and the Soviet Alfa class have similar features. While there are some differences, for the most part they are both built with the same mission in mind. The Missile Subs have a much more pronounced difference in design philosophy. The American one is similar in design to the Attack Sub, while the Soviet Typhoon deviates rather dramatically from the Alfa.
And then of course we have everyone's favorite Typhoon...
American classification Typhoon 7:
Red October
May not be real, but shows some variation on the Typhoon design.
> @markhawkman said:
> majorcharvenak wrote: »
> shadowfang240 wrote: »
> 1st and 4th are USA, (F-35A and B-52 Stratofortress respectively) 2nd and 3rd are russian (Sukhoi_T-50 and Tu-95 respectively)
> Damn you Shadowfang! Beat me to the punch. Well done, Sir!
> "Sukhoi_T-50"Yeah, pretty sure he copy pasted the file name text.
> Point still stands regardless. My point was that the difference between a fighter jet and a strategic bomber is greater than the difference between a Russian design and a US design.
Well could look at the American BB then the TU160. Such a knock off the 160 is.
Well yeah, last I checked Russia, and The United States are on Earth so i expect them to have designs look the same and after over 100 years of espionage probably have designs that look exactly the same
I expect two galactic powers after millions of years of evolution on different worlds to have ships that visually look alien to each other....now maybe after a few 100 years of contact Galactic espionage maybe they start to use certain designs from each other and ships look some what the same but different like the TOS D7 and TOS Connie for example and years and years of trade and exchanges between aliens a certain design would come out on top by the 25th century
Also space around Qo'noS and Sol would be vastly different maybe Klingons deal with more space hazards then the Federation where on Earth U.S and Russia you don't have to fly thru the badlands or Briar Patch to get to New York from Moscow
no, and ships, fighters, bombers and tanks aren't all designed by the same person either, but most nation's hardware still manages to share enough similarity that you can tell what nation it's from if you have enough experience with their design spectrum
the same SHOULD be true of starships, and was in star trek up until 2017
If you're comparing an F-16 to an F-22 those were designed by the same group of people. But an SR-71? Shares some similarities to a F-22 but not much with an F-16. And those are all high-speed jet aircraft. Now something that's actually a different kind of aircraft? Say a B-52? doesn't even vaguely resemble an SR-71 other than both having wings. Why? because Lockheed-Martin jet aircraft ARE derivatives of the same basic frame design. A B-52 is not derived from that design lineage.
Now when you have interstellar civilizations that span dozens of worlds, especially ones like the Klingons who have reasons for each House to make their own designs. Why would they have a single design lineage?
Oh and for fun... which of these are US and which are Russian?
Yeah, this is one of those "form follows function" things. High-speed jets tend to look similar because they are designed to do a specific thing well, and while there are theoretically infinite ways to do it, they tend to look very similar. Same with long range bombers.
We're also talking about a completely alien culture, one that has different influences to draw on that what we humans draw on from the this world. It's something that Star Trek didn't do well. Most alien races had ships that looked similar in design to races they weren't related to. Yes, we had a few exceptions - the Vulcans, Cardassians, Kazon - but the Klingons and Romulans? They were giving a look that was easy to compare and understand. This is something that Babylon 5 did very well, giving each race it's own design scheme and lines. Giving different races different propulsion systems. Why would every race in Star Trek have Warp and Impulse drives? It makes no sense. Are we saying that no other race found another way to form a "warp bubble" (or what ever they would call it) around one of there ships? It has to be two obvious nacelle shaped objects? Are we saying that all the major races use the same principles to power there ships, and that impulse drive creation is one of the universal constants in the Trek universe?
This is something Discovery has done right - they have taken the human out of alien technology and made things look like were developed by a different culture and mindset. It's something that's long overdue in Star Trek, and something that it desperately needs.
BUT, that's just my own opinion. Agree, disagree - I don't care. I like the new designs
People ask how long have I been playing STO - well the answer is simple: I have been here since the beginning. I just haven't always had a lot to say.
The basic problem with Discovery's Klingon redesign is that no matter how you slice it, they completely erased anything klingon about that established race and inserted something that was entirely different. Unlike the Andorian visuals (depicted in this thead), which appear to have embraced much of what that race had previously established and then enhanced that dynamic somewhat; with the Klingons (a beloved franchise staple) they chose to replace what was, with what is. That this was done in a purported prequel, is where the confoundment began among the fanbase.
I'm trying to adapt, but the effort is challenging!
1st and 4th are USA, (F-35A and B-52 Stratofortress respectively) 2nd and 3rd are russian (Sukhoi_T-50 and Tu-95 respectively)
Damn you Shadowfang! Beat me to the punch. Well done, Sir!
"Sukhoi_T-50"Yeah, pretty sure he copy pasted the file name text.
Point still stands regardless. My point was that the difference between a fighter jet and a strategic bomber is greater than the difference between a Russian design and a US design.
My point in praising Shadowfang has less to do with the point you made, a point I agree with, and more to do with correctly answering your aircraft vis recognition test.
~Shia~
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But you still can't deny that adding hair does make L'Rell line up more with established TNG style Klingons.
Chang: I was rockin' the more bald look long before these T'Kuvma followers, figuratively speaking.
And the question isn't perfect replication but an update, taking advantage of modern makeup while keeping in touch with evolving ideas of what aliens should look to have a consistent emotional impression with the audience (very much like the TMP update but more so because that already has happened.)
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yeah, but Chang's head didn't extend back four inches past his neck line (necessary for the hood-like makeup to hide the actor/actress's actual hair), positioning the brain-stem on the fictional alien's brain considerably forward, and limiting head movement.
There's no issue with an occipital expansion limiting the articulation about the atlas or an inherent problem in repositioning the brain stem in an absolute sense (this has already happened in the evolution of primates). It fact, in the case of Klingons the occipital expansion appears to counterbalance the expansion of the forehead and facial regions with both bone and soft tissue. The balance may still not be perfect (leaving muscles to compensate, as in the case of all terrestrial vertebrates), and of course its debatable what the cause-effect relationships and evolutionary pressures are here without more information about Klingon anatomy over the past 5 million years or so, but their DSC design ain't inconsistent with biomechanics (even added weight and encumberment isn't inconsistent with evolutionary processes if the shape of the head has any role in mating preference over geologic time.)
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Generally in humans, that much occipital deformation is accompanied by both long, and short term health impacts, and is usually accompanied by severe health impacts.
These are allegedly healthy Klingons.
Human cranial morphology is, through organic evolution, marked by occipital expansion relative to pre-human ancestors. This transition was not plagued by inherent health defects. Those are not part of simply adding more hard or soft tissue to the rear of the skull or repositioning the brain gradually over time (specifically, moving the foramen magnum and associated structures under the skull versus directly posterior). Excessive and extreme occipital expansion in humans may cause issues through the precise mechanism for how this is carried out in ontogeny. Ie. sudden defects without concomitant systemic alterations (beyond immediate developmental accommodations as controlled by regulative genetics through development. See. the field of Evo-Devo) to make that large jump functional (which is basic to the mechanics of macro-evolutionary changes. Even still, that single jump may still be functional but the probability of success is relatively low compared to incremental changes over time and consistent selection pressure.) Any health problems you care to cite are associated with disturbing an otherwise functional system in one go, not gradual and systemic microevolutionary changes over time or a fundamental incompatibility with vertebrate anatomy.
Nothing in organic evolution or humanoid biomechanics precludes Klingon skull morphology, given appropriate selection pressures over time, or that it is necessarily more problematic beyond the simple addition of mass (for which there may be compensations.)
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what you're missing, is that this IS sudden. as in under a century from Enterprise's era, and reverts almost immediately (within 10 years) with the Augment virus's impact (TOS Klingons), and further, because the reduced occipital deformation manifests in subsequent generations. (aka their heads aren't shaped like that AFTER the Discovery period, and weren't BEFORE it.)
Assuming of course this is the same population of Klingons as we see in ENT and later Trek (not a population subgroup who came to prominence in this era but fell in favor due to shifting imperial dynamics. There is no explicit statement in canon that defines the Klingon species as being entirely homogeneous, only your presumption based on a simple expectation and a limited understanding of potential evolutionary dynamics) assuming of course that the representation of an alien in any given production that uses makeup applied to a human actor is literal to the fictional reality, which is untenable (because even between episodes that presentation is not self consistent. Details change with successive applications of makeup and redesigns between sequential series and seasons. You are making a figurative interpretation to believe that Trek has any reality and thus the question of DSC Klingons can only be defined, objectively, as that of degrees and personal tolerance.)
Bone growth (additional bone growth) for the forward facial ridges is easier to handwave, since that doesn't interfere with basic nervous system layout and function.
Cranial expansion via the occipital and sagittal bones does not necessarily have any effect on the layout of the central nervous system if that growth is simply added superficially (the anatomical term) to the cranial cavity. It's the orientation of the foramen magnum relative to the skull and the position of that foramen relative to the brain, that does have an impact (as we see in primate evolution, though if you're not familiar I recommend a course in human paleontology) and neither actually are at play here (given that this is makeup applied to a human actor.)
You are operating on a false presumption that an inextricable developmental correlation exists between the cranial cavity and overall dimensions of the head (though of course, only posterior. You're fine with anterior expansions around the frontal lobes cerebrum, fancy that.) As it stands, there is not. Take for example: the development of sagittal crests through primate and hominin evolution. The outer perimeter of the head is effectively expanded through a single bone ridge and associated soft tissue (including areas of expansion of the DSC Klingon skull) added superficially without affecting the dimensions of the cranial cavity.
The developmental mechanisms for Discovery Klingon skulls is plausible given human developmental genetics, either applied identically (ie. accounting for that growth with an extreme sagittal crest and flanking soft tissue, for which secondary mating characteristic is a natural selection mechanism) or analogously in the formation of novel structures for the same overall effect.
For an alien, it's completely justified.
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so you're claiming what, exactly? see, if Klingons evolved with that head shape, then it should be present in Enterprise, since the 'human lookin' ones are explained by events in Deep Space Nine, and in Enterprise.
Again, assuming that the Klingon species is as roughly homogeneous as humans are, currently. Ie. after multiple bottlenecks in evolutionary history both to constrain variation within our the species and between different members of our genus. An alien may have more variation either at the level of their single species, as a matter of subspecies, or between closely related species that fall under the umbrella of what they identify as themselves. This depends on both their cultural and biological evolution, for which we have very little information about Klingons (beyond their current mythos).
Historical societies have used body modification as means to denote status in the locally dominant power dynamic long before Louis Pasteur figured out that washing your hands can prevent infection.
Tattoos and Scarification being prominent in many cultures, but there's more-one of the dynasties of ancient egypt used 'head wrapping to deliberately distort skull shape and development, china used foot-binding on women of the upper classes to make them distinct from peasants, and so on. mix that kind of social dynamic with high-end genetic/body mods and you can, potentially, get some damn strange stuff. Add in the threat of the 'augment virus' and such a fad could take on near-epidemic levels.
This could also explain the apparent facial paralysis the makeup imposes on the actors, since messing with your braincase as an adult could have some undesirable side effects. (thus, L'Rell having the same facial expression whether she's boning Voq or arguing politics, or the nearly paralytic movements of Klingons in 'fight scenes' that make said scenes kinda pathetic to watch.)
this being a FAD suggests the inconsistency really isn't an inconsistency. once exposed to a REAL war, instead of positioning/flower wars of the previous century, such mods would rapidly fall out of favour (much as the wearing of ties and waistcoats did post WW1, or the demise of wigs and such among the military classes post 17th century, the adoption of pockets, or the 'clean shaven' look that really only took off after millions of men grew used to shaving to fit their gas masks-facial hair kind of went out after world war one too among military personnel).
The, ah...'standard of beauty' changed to something less stylized and more practical with real experience, see?
However, this I also like, as you've directly connected the transient styles of DSC Klingons with pressures faced by their society by the augment virus (and perhaps extreme reactions to it.) If Klingons affected by the virus (as suggested in ENT) explored facial reconstruction then members of Klingon society who consider themselves untainted may have resorted to greater extremes using that developing technology to further distinguish themselves as pure Klingons. So, Klingon anatomy is further exaggerated (beyond what an augment-infected Klingon could achieve, given their starting point), with further alterations made according to evolving styles and taste over the decades.
I think there's still a serious question to pose about how homogeneous are Klingons but I think invoking both cultural and biological variation would be the most interesting route the show could take.
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They put our toons into overalls in Temporal Ambassador so it's more than doable on a Discovery mirror costume. Maybe have it as a mission reward for doing the anniversary episode.
That's pretty much how I got my prototype Odyssey, as I recall, so maybe. I know I'd love those Disco Mirror uniforms - probably use those for my half-Romulan merc...
The basic problem with Discovery's Klingon redesign is that no matter how you slice it, they completely erased anything klingon about that established race and inserted something that was entirely different. Unlike the Andorian visuals (depicted in this thead), which appear to have embraced much of what that race had previously established and then enhanced that dynamic somewhat; with the Klingons (a beloved franchise staple) they chose to replace what was, with what is. That this was done in a purported prequel, is where the confoundment began among the fanbase.
I'm trying to adapt, but the effort is challenging!
I suspect a huge portion of that, is that the show's developers didn't think it mattered, or didn't like the elements that people who DID like old-school TNG Klingons liked.
TNG Klingons aren't "old-school". These Klingons are "old-school"!
Comments
If we compare nuclear submarines from the Cold War, we see two different design styles. HOWEVER, those designs are really only noticeable in the Balastic Missile Subs. The Attack Subs only have minor differences really.
American:
Soviet:
As shown here, the American Los Angeles class and the Soviet Alfa class have similar features. While there are some differences, for the most part they are both built with the same mission in mind. The Missile Subs have a much more pronounced difference in design philosophy. The American one is similar in design to the Attack Sub, while the Soviet Typhoon deviates rather dramatically from the Alfa.
And then of course we have everyone's favorite Typhoon...
American classification Typhoon 7:
Red October
May not be real, but shows some variation on the Typhoon design.
I think I'll make an Andorian this time around
And this thing?:
My character Tsin'xing
I expect two galactic powers after millions of years of evolution on different worlds to have ships that visually look alien to each other....now maybe after a few 100 years of contact Galactic espionage maybe they start to use certain designs from each other and ships look some what the same but different like the TOS D7 and TOS Connie for example and years and years of trade and exchanges between aliens a certain design would come out on top by the 25th century
Also space around Qo'noS and Sol would be vastly different maybe Klingons deal with more space hazards then the Federation where on Earth U.S and Russia you don't have to fly thru the badlands or Briar Patch to get to New York from Moscow
We're also talking about a completely alien culture, one that has different influences to draw on that what we humans draw on from the this world. It's something that Star Trek didn't do well. Most alien races had ships that looked similar in design to races they weren't related to. Yes, we had a few exceptions - the Vulcans, Cardassians, Kazon - but the Klingons and Romulans? They were giving a look that was easy to compare and understand. This is something that Babylon 5 did very well, giving each race it's own design scheme and lines. Giving different races different propulsion systems. Why would every race in Star Trek have Warp and Impulse drives? It makes no sense. Are we saying that no other race found another way to form a "warp bubble" (or what ever they would call it) around one of there ships? It has to be two obvious nacelle shaped objects? Are we saying that all the major races use the same principles to power there ships, and that impulse drive creation is one of the universal constants in the Trek universe?
This is something Discovery has done right - they have taken the human out of alien technology and made things look like were developed by a different culture and mindset. It's something that's long overdue in Star Trek, and something that it desperately needs.
BUT, that's just my own opinion. Agree, disagree - I don't care. I like the new designs
All of this looks awesome! Can't wait to see this all in game
I'm trying to adapt, but the effort is challenging!
My point in praising Shadowfang has less to do with the point you made, a point I agree with, and more to do with correctly answering your aircraft vis recognition test.
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My character Tsin'xing
Chang: I was rockin' the more bald look long before these T'Kuvma followers, figuratively speaking.
And the question isn't perfect replication but an update, taking advantage of modern makeup while keeping in touch with evolving ideas of what aliens should look to have a consistent emotional impression with the audience (very much like the TMP update but more so because that already has happened.)
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There's no issue with an occipital expansion limiting the articulation about the atlas or an inherent problem in repositioning the brain stem in an absolute sense (this has already happened in the evolution of primates). It fact, in the case of Klingons the occipital expansion appears to counterbalance the expansion of the forehead and facial regions with both bone and soft tissue. The balance may still not be perfect (leaving muscles to compensate, as in the case of all terrestrial vertebrates), and of course its debatable what the cause-effect relationships and evolutionary pressures are here without more information about Klingon anatomy over the past 5 million years or so, but their DSC design ain't inconsistent with biomechanics (even added weight and encumberment isn't inconsistent with evolutionary processes if the shape of the head has any role in mating preference over geologic time.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Nothing in organic evolution or humanoid biomechanics precludes Klingon skull morphology, given appropriate selection pressures over time, or that it is necessarily more problematic beyond the simple addition of mass (for which there may be compensations.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
My character Tsin'xing
Assuming of course this is the same population of Klingons as we see in ENT and later Trek (not a population subgroup who came to prominence in this era but fell in favor due to shifting imperial dynamics. There is no explicit statement in canon that defines the Klingon species as being entirely homogeneous, only your presumption based on a simple expectation and a limited understanding of potential evolutionary dynamics) assuming of course that the representation of an alien in any given production that uses makeup applied to a human actor is literal to the fictional reality, which is untenable (because even between episodes that presentation is not self consistent. Details change with successive applications of makeup and redesigns between sequential series and seasons. You are making a figurative interpretation to believe that Trek has any reality and thus the question of DSC Klingons can only be defined, objectively, as that of degrees and personal tolerance.)
Cranial expansion via the occipital and sagittal bones does not necessarily have any effect on the layout of the central nervous system if that growth is simply added superficially (the anatomical term) to the cranial cavity. It's the orientation of the foramen magnum relative to the skull and the position of that foramen relative to the brain, that does have an impact (as we see in primate evolution, though if you're not familiar I recommend a course in human paleontology) and neither actually are at play here (given that this is makeup applied to a human actor.)
You are operating on a false presumption that an inextricable developmental correlation exists between the cranial cavity and overall dimensions of the head (though of course, only posterior. You're fine with anterior expansions around the frontal lobes cerebrum, fancy that.) As it stands, there is not. Take for example: the development of sagittal crests through primate and hominin evolution. The outer perimeter of the head is effectively expanded through a single bone ridge and associated soft tissue (including areas of expansion of the DSC Klingon skull) added superficially without affecting the dimensions of the cranial cavity.
The developmental mechanisms for Discovery Klingon skulls is plausible given human developmental genetics, either applied identically (ie. accounting for that growth with an extreme sagittal crest and flanking soft tissue, for which secondary mating characteristic is a natural selection mechanism) or analogously in the formation of novel structures for the same overall effect.
For an alien, it's completely justified.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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Again, assuming that the Klingon species is as roughly homogeneous as humans are, currently. Ie. after multiple bottlenecks in evolutionary history both to constrain variation within our the species and between different members of our genus. An alien may have more variation either at the level of their single species, as a matter of subspecies, or between closely related species that fall under the umbrella of what they identify as themselves. This depends on both their cultural and biological evolution, for which we have very little information about Klingons (beyond their current mythos).
However, this I also like, as you've directly connected the transient styles of DSC Klingons with pressures faced by their society by the augment virus (and perhaps extreme reactions to it.) If Klingons affected by the virus (as suggested in ENT) explored facial reconstruction then members of Klingon society who consider themselves untainted may have resorted to greater extremes using that developing technology to further distinguish themselves as pure Klingons. So, Klingon anatomy is further exaggerated (beyond what an augment-infected Klingon could achieve, given their starting point), with further alterations made according to evolving styles and taste over the decades.
I think there's still a serious question to pose about how homogeneous are Klingons but I think invoking both cultural and biological variation would be the most interesting route the show could take.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!