This game doesn't have a learning curve. You can fly through all relevant parts of this game on the seat of your pants, because you literally can't lose. The entire story is completely without fail condition, most of the "endgame" is more or less without fail condition (not to mention almost dead since there's no reason to ever play 99% of it).
I get the feeling that they are trying to find an excuse to drive the majority of people away from always playing Federation so they can focus more on the new faction.
This game doesn't have a learning curve. You can fly through all relevant parts of this game on the seat of your pants, because you literally can't lose. The entire story is completely without fail condition, most of the "endgame" is more or less without fail condition (not to mention almost dead since there's no reason to ever play 99% of it).
Well technically all elite PvE maps have fail conditions and are only beaten by at least half way experienced teams but of course you are right with you statement that 99% of it all isn’t played anyway.
Yet it raises the question if the remaining 1% of the endgame that is left here would be enough for new players to stick around for long. And no, given that they are limited to Jem’hadar also rules out “Space-Barbie is the true endgame” pretty much…
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
The Jems seem like a hero class and they typically are locked behind leveling a regular character first on most games. That said I could see an argument for them being open to new players to draw them in right away given STO may need more of an audience to sell things to.
On the one hand, I could understand locking a "lv60 boost/all reps/etc" created character behind "have gotten one character to lv50/60" (games like WoW have done this for, say, the Death Knight).
On the other hand, I can't see a f2p game, that wants to attract new players with Big News About New Releases™ doing such a thing. Good way to drive away those new players who came for the promise of playing Dominion & Jemmies.
The big problem with your black belt comparison is that people have to prove that they are proficient to earn their black belt. Nothing is earned or proven by slogging through the story to get to level 60. Being level 60 doesn't mean that you know what you're doing. There are plenty of people that are level 60 that haven't got a single clue as to how the game works.
Good point. I've got lv60 characters who got there mostly by doffing, and I've got many characters with all T5 reps who got them by raising holiday pets (heck, most of the reps I got to T5, I never did the actual Mark content for them. I don't queue outside Borg RA, honestly. /shrug)
There is still some "l2p" involved in leveling a character. Figuring out the basics of the combat system when you only have a ship with a few buttons to press, for instance. Jumping right to lv60 ships with a couple dozen powers to click and ~8 weapon systems could be a bit offputting. But we'll need to see what the Jem starter quests look like, I suppose.
This game doesn't have a learning curve. You can fly through all relevant parts of this game on the seat of your pants, because you literally can't lose. The entire story is completely without fail condition, most of the "endgame" is more or less without fail condition (not to mention almost dead since there's no reason to ever play 99% of it).
Well technically all elite PvE maps have fail conditions and are only beaten by at least half way experienced teams but of course you are right with you statement that 99% of it all isn’t played anyway.
Which is why I said "most of the endgame" have no fail conditions. Certainly all of the popular endgame (borg/tholian alerts, CCA/ISA and events when one is running) have no fail conditions. Your typical newbie isn't going to run Elite queues anytime soon, probably never. And they rarely pop anyway.
Yet it raises the question if the remaining 1% of the endgame that is left here would be enough for new players to stick around for long. And no, given that they are limited to Jem’hadar also rules out “Space-Barbie is the true endgame” pretty much…
Is it enough for old players to stick around? I seriously doubt many players in the game still think of the queues as primary motivation. The queues have been dead for ages. Admiralty gave them the finishing blow even as a dil-grinder. Unfortunately, Cryptic has barely even tried adding rewards people would actually want or need ("barely," because there was the colony provisions, but we all saw what happened to that).
The only thing that gets me to log in anymore are events, and they've done their very best to minimize what little gameplay those offer as well. And Space Barbie of course.
In any case that's off-topic. None of that is affected by the level you start at and all of the origins have the exact same thing to expect...episode missions followed by events, Barbie and/or dil-grinding.
No, it takes forever to grind end-game ships with one character. You need to spend at least 6 months before getting a T6 ship from the c-store. A single character can only grind about $10 dollars worth of zen per month. If you want more zen then you need to create multiple characters. This can be very frustrating for players who are new to the game.
I admittedly haven't read all three pages of arguments in this thread, but I wanted to jump in here, because this is something we debated internally a lot. We finally settled on this: When you create a Jem'Hadar, it'll warn you that it's an end game character and heavily recommend you play another faction first. But we're not going to stop you, because if a new player came to the game because they heard about Victory is Life and wants to start right there, it doesn't make any sense to say, "No, play some older content first."
> @kronin#4685 said:
> azrael605 wrote: »
>
> Kronin, the Cardies start at level 1 in Fed or KDF just like any other toon, only the Jem Hadar start at level 60.
>
>
>
>
> Yes, I know. But, I wanted the Cards to have their own faction, complete with it's own campaign and sub races.
I'd have done it like the Romulans myself, so we'd have 2 "Main" Factions & 2 "Sub" Factions, plus the Dethknight Jem Hadar. But I'm sure that sounds horrible to many people. I'm still looking forward to playing a Cardi anyway.
About the Cards being the second sub faction, yes, I indeed wholeheartedly concur. I was also hoping the Hirogen would be a sub race for them. Oh well.
I admittedly haven't read all three pages of arguments in this thread, but I wanted to jump in here, because this is something we debated internally a lot. We finally settled on this: When you create a Jem'Hadar, it'll warn you that it's an end game character and heavily recommend you play another faction first. But we're not going to stop you, because if a new player came to the game because they heard about Victory is Life and wants to start right there, it doesn't make any sense to say, "No, play some older content first."
Thanks for your input Kael. I was going to ambush you on Live-Stream about this I am glad you are taking steps to highlight JH's as such.
There is still a burning question of AoY and Delta Recruit Reward claiming on JH's. Are these going to be restricted somehow, similiar to the current levelling requirements of new toons, to prevent exploiting by creation-claim-delete spamming??
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
This issue's complicated enough that I won't vote either way or the other. To be honest I'm completely unsure of which option would work out better. To put it simply, either way would 'work' there's just no way to tell which would work better.
On one hand, I've personally completely destroyed my enthusiasm for playing a game by jumping in to endgame and running into a wall based on something I would have learned if I just played through from the start. Unfortunately I don't know if this would happen with sto and since I can't erase my experience playing sto I have no way to find out.
On the other hand, releasing a big expansion that new players can't access without a huge time investment isn't great. Particularly a new faction. Additionally, it may actually be better for some people to start the game at endgame. I know a few people who where put off from sto based on how lacking the early content is when it comes to depth. This might actually present a way for people to circumvent that limitation and come to enjoy the game.
Either way has it's advantages and disadvantages and in my opinion the best option is to try one. Based on ambassadorkael's response above, a notification recommending that players play older content first 'should' be enough to allow people to at least make an informed decision. And in the end if it cause issues, it can always be changed later.
There is still a burning question of AoY and Delta Recruit Reward claiming on JH's. Are these going to be restricted somehow, similiar to the current levelling requirements of new toons, to prevent exploiting by creation-claim-delete spamming??
I don't think that's a burning question at all. We'll see it when it's released. Personally, I expect they'll up the level requirement for JH's, but it won't affect me in the slightests since I don't plan on doing any claim spamming anyway.
Just to say thank you for people's opinions on this. It's very much appreciated when it's all civil.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
I admittedly haven't read all three pages of arguments in this thread, but I wanted to jump in here, because this is something we debated internally a lot. We finally settled on this: When you create a Jem'Hadar, it'll warn you that it's an end game character and heavily recommend you play another faction first. But we're not going to stop you, because if a new player came to the game because they heard about Victory is Life and wants to start right there, it doesn't make any sense to say, "No, play some older content first."
Fair enough, rather I agree or not.. thank you for the explanation. It helps us understand the decision when we know where the development team is coming from. I'll admit, I never thought of it from the perspective of drawing new players because they want to play Jem Hadar.
Yes it should be locked. The why is simple, we dont just let a 16 yr old jump into a car and take off. There is the whole needing a license, and hopefully drivers ed to prepare them to drive. A short tutorial will not prep them enough for lvl60.
And if the devs idea of basic starship setups is any indicator its no wonder most people dont know what they are doing. When you go to missions like Temporal Ambassador and see the basic set up of weapons/abilities they chose.... well its kinda not surprising.
So unless the devs tutorial mission is going to explain ground combat, space combat, auto attacking settings, captain skill sheet, specilzations, traits, doffs, admiralty, boffs power and promotions, captain powers, reputation, events, ques, zen store, R&D, Upgrading, and Re-engineering. Then spit them out with mk14 VR gear with a decent set up of weapons/boff powers. If they can do allllllllllllllllllll that with 1 mission sure give them the keys.
Other then that, maybeee we should have them take that drivers test.
Its simple, lock JH till they have a lvl60. At least by the time they get a character to lvl60 they should understand some of all the above. Other wise say hello to a bunch of 16 year olds with no training going straight onto the free way, what could go wrong?
There's nothing snobbish or elitist about this poll. It's about people learning the game before jumping into Endgame content. I actually do spend a fair bit of time in Beta Quad answering questions for people. However, Kael has already addressed part of the concerns I have with a well thought out reply, that whilst I still don't agree with, it does should emphasize to new players to play through other factions FIRST before playing as Jem'Hadar.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
You know Cryptic has turned back on what they have said before if it means profit.
C'mon, vorta in Dominion faction.... LTS.... That's the perfect incentive.
Vorta can be doffs and be sent on dangerous missions for Starfleet/KDF as petty officers. I see no reason they can't be starship captains for the dominion allied with the alpha/beta quadrant factions.
I have to agree with the moderator. In a game like an MMO new players having to jump through hurdles just to get at new content is bad enough, but when that content is supposed to be a unique starting area with it's own races and you're told that you can't make a character there because you aren't an endgame character in another faction... that's pretty much a, "TRIBBLE off till you 'git gud'."
XIV has a similar problem with it's expansions and we hate it there, too. Can't go to the new areas until you clear the story to a specific point. They've alleviated some of this by introducing many different means of leveling, but the problem is still there. Hours of cutscenes and instanced dungeons must still be traversed before you can get to the frozen North or Far East.
I applaud the developers for not locking content just because it'd allow new players to dive into the deep end before learning to dog paddle. If you meet said players then instead of getting angry, try helping them out. Teach them the ropes like older established players did for you and me (I didn't even know you could set auto-abilities till the IRW Rea handed me my nacelles a few times, a friendly player taught me how they worked). Maybe then we'll have a better community for it.
Those of us who have played long enough will remember when KDF was locked and had to be unlocked by leveling Fed first. How many people do you think liked that?
What do you mean the Devs are not interested in creating stuff for pre-50 Characters. Just look at the Galaxy Interior Infomercial 'Beyond the Nexus'. That is for Level 16+ Characters.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
What do you mean the Devs are not interested in creating stuff for pre-50 Characters. Just look at the Galaxy Interior Infomercial 'Beyond the Nexus'. That is for Level 16+ Characters.
Lol. Well, actually, they do make new episodes available to Lvl 10+, so the whole argument of people having to wait to access new content is partly nullified, unless they are changing that requirement.
That being said, it takes on average 28-34 hours of playtime to reach level 60, and the arcs from New Frontiers onwards don't require unlocking from playing the prior arcs. Needless to say, I think my Beta chat time is going to be busy for the first week or so
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Those of us who have played long enough will remember when KDF was locked and had to be unlocked by leveling Fed first. How many people do you think liked that?
Yeah but there's a difference in that the KDF was it's own based faction. That never should have been there much like if WoW locked up the Horde forcing people to play Alliance first. Dominion captains can hit up both factions like Death Knights can hit up both in WoW.
This decision will make adv/elite content nightmarish (well, more so with a higher failure rate) to pug as unless they get a full set of xii gear too, the chances are they'll be undergeared and a liability for content as the newbies will gravitate to the elite rewards naturally, meaning they won't have the experience of build creation nor the knowledge base required for high level content - or worse, they'll become one of the many afk leeches that will let others do the work
I'd have no qualms with insta 60'ing players whom have paid their dues as a rom/fed/kdf however - they know what they are doing after all and (mostly) will not be a liability in pugs
I'm already having bad mental images of starting a MINE run and finding all my teamates are Jemmies who have no clue what end of their gun they should be pointing at the enemy
Comments
Well technically all elite PvE maps have fail conditions and are only beaten by at least half way experienced teams but of course you are right with you statement that 99% of it all isn’t played anyway.
Yet it raises the question if the remaining 1% of the endgame that is left here would be enough for new players to stick around for long. And no, given that they are limited to Jem’hadar also rules out “Space-Barbie is the true endgame” pretty much…
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
On the other hand, I can't see a f2p game, that wants to attract new players with Big News About New Releases™ doing such a thing. Good way to drive away those new players who came for the promise of playing Dominion & Jemmies.
Good point. I've got lv60 characters who got there mostly by doffing, and I've got many characters with all T5 reps who got them by raising holiday pets (heck, most of the reps I got to T5, I never did the actual Mark content for them. I don't queue outside Borg RA, honestly. /shrug)
There is still some "l2p" involved in leveling a character. Figuring out the basics of the combat system when you only have a ship with a few buttons to press, for instance. Jumping right to lv60 ships with a couple dozen powers to click and ~8 weapon systems could be a bit offputting. But we'll need to see what the Jem starter quests look like, I suppose.
Is it enough for old players to stick around? I seriously doubt many players in the game still think of the queues as primary motivation. The queues have been dead for ages. Admiralty gave them the finishing blow even as a dil-grinder. Unfortunately, Cryptic has barely even tried adding rewards people would actually want or need ("barely," because there was the colony provisions, but we all saw what happened to that).
The only thing that gets me to log in anymore are events, and they've done their very best to minimize what little gameplay those offer as well. And Space Barbie of course.
In any case that's off-topic. None of that is affected by the level you start at and all of the origins have the exact same thing to expect...episode missions followed by events, Barbie and/or dil-grinding.
Thanks for your input Kael. I was going to ambush you on Live-Stream about this
There is still a burning question of AoY and Delta Recruit Reward claiming on JH's. Are these going to be restricted somehow, similiar to the current levelling requirements of new toons, to prevent exploiting by creation-claim-delete spamming??
On one hand, I've personally completely destroyed my enthusiasm for playing a game by jumping in to endgame and running into a wall based on something I would have learned if I just played through from the start. Unfortunately I don't know if this would happen with sto and since I can't erase my experience playing sto I have no way to find out.
On the other hand, releasing a big expansion that new players can't access without a huge time investment isn't great. Particularly a new faction. Additionally, it may actually be better for some people to start the game at endgame. I know a few people who where put off from sto based on how lacking the early content is when it comes to depth. This might actually present a way for people to circumvent that limitation and come to enjoy the game.
Either way has it's advantages and disadvantages and in my opinion the best option is to try one. Based on ambassadorkael's response above, a notification recommending that players play older content first 'should' be enough to allow people to at least make an informed decision. And in the end if it cause issues, it can always be changed later.
Fair enough, rather I agree or not.. thank you for the explanation. It helps us understand the decision when we know where the development team is coming from. I'll admit, I never thought of it from the perspective of drawing new players because they want to play Jem Hadar.
Ok, when you're right.. you're right. That's an excellent point.
And if the devs idea of basic starship setups is any indicator its no wonder most people dont know what they are doing. When you go to missions like Temporal Ambassador and see the basic set up of weapons/abilities they chose.... well its kinda not surprising.
So unless the devs tutorial mission is going to explain ground combat, space combat, auto attacking settings, captain skill sheet, specilzations, traits, doffs, admiralty, boffs power and promotions, captain powers, reputation, events, ques, zen store, R&D, Upgrading, and Re-engineering. Then spit them out with mk14 VR gear with a decent set up of weapons/boff powers. If they can do allllllllllllllllllll that with 1 mission sure give them the keys.
Other then that, maybeee we should have them take that drivers test.
Its simple, lock JH till they have a lvl60. At least by the time they get a character to lvl60 they should understand some of all the above. Other wise say hello to a bunch of 16 year olds with no training going straight onto the free way, what could go wrong?
There's nothing snobbish or elitist about this poll. It's about people learning the game before jumping into Endgame content. I actually do spend a fair bit of time in Beta Quad answering questions for people. However, Kael has already addressed part of the concerns I have with a well thought out reply, that whilst I still don't agree with, it does should emphasize to new players to play through other factions FIRST before playing as Jem'Hadar.
You know Cryptic has turned back on what they have said before if it means profit.
C'mon, vorta in Dominion faction.... LTS.... That's the perfect incentive.
Vorta can be doffs and be sent on dangerous missions for Starfleet/KDF as petty officers. I see no reason they can't be starship captains for the dominion allied with the alpha/beta quadrant factions.
XIV has a similar problem with it's expansions and we hate it there, too. Can't go to the new areas until you clear the story to a specific point. They've alleviated some of this by introducing many different means of leveling, but the problem is still there. Hours of cutscenes and instanced dungeons must still be traversed before you can get to the frozen North or Far East.
I applaud the developers for not locking content just because it'd allow new players to dive into the deep end before learning to dog paddle. If you meet said players then instead of getting angry, try helping them out. Teach them the ropes like older established players did for you and me (I didn't even know you could set auto-abilities till the IRW Rea handed me my nacelles a few times, a friendly player taught me how they worked). Maybe then we'll have a better community for it.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lol. Well, actually, they do make new episodes available to Lvl 10+, so the whole argument of people having to wait to access new content is partly nullified, unless they are changing that requirement.
That being said, it takes on average 28-34 hours of playtime to reach level 60, and the arcs from New Frontiers onwards don't require unlocking from playing the prior arcs. Needless to say, I think my Beta chat time is going to be busy for the first week or so
Yeah but there's a difference in that the KDF was it's own based faction. That never should have been there much like if WoW locked up the Horde forcing people to play Alliance first. Dominion captains can hit up both factions like Death Knights can hit up both in WoW.
I'd have no qualms with insta 60'ing players whom have paid their dues as a rom/fed/kdf however - they know what they are doing after all and (mostly) will not be a liability in pugs
I'm already having bad mental images of starting a MINE run and finding all my teamates are Jemmies who have no clue what end of their gun they should be pointing at the enemy
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