Unless your game's initials spell "WOW," a "stable monthly subscriber base" won't even keep the lights on at the office. And yes, it's just nostalgia to pretend otherwise.
So you point to one example where it works and use that for the proof it can't work?
Plus I said: "You have to admit that IF they had a stable monthly subscriber base they would PROBABLY put more emphasis on the game-play." So you can keep your attacks to yourself.
Let's say 'Game X' CAN make money with either funding method. Which do you think would give players a better experience? One with a relatively stable monthly income or one that has to push a new shiny object to make money?
The issue is that even sto still has a sub option, which is not taken/used by many players actually, as such most likely there is just not enough players that feel the game is worth subbing too. A static 15 dollar a month sub like wow is just not something most players want to spent, hell even a 5 dollar sub price tag like I think would be fine is most likely too much as well for most players to invest in the game. Also once the game goes back to a sub model, many players would feel that having to purchase with irl money starships, as well as other things we see in the c-store might need to be redone into a different format as players would feel having to buy them on top of a sub-fee is not acceptable.
I don't know missions will bankrupt this company, and neither does any other player. And I've acknowledge they make content, albeit they have set the bar very low and learned to maximize profit from that content.
You're contradicting yourself, OP. None of us know STO's profit/loss, yet you assume that the bar has been set low. How do you know that the bar isn't set exactly where it should be to keep the game alive?
I've stated several times they have it down to a science. New Content= 1 Featured episode, a rep system, 1 que (maybe two if they do ground) and a lockbox ship.
This is disingenuous. We get a free expansion pack every two years, as well as several "big ticket items" of sorts ON TOP of the usual mission/lockbox/queues/rep.
We got expansions in 2013 and 2014, plus the Dyson battlezone.
In 2015, we got the Iconian War (the only time in the game's history where we got a new mission every month for 6-7 months or so).
In 2016, we got AoY.
In 2017, we got the colony fleet holding with a massive social map, plus the Galaxy interior, revamped AQ, and a few other things.
This year, we're getting another expansion.
Not every piece of new content is going to be a story arc.
I don't know missions will bankrupt this company, and neither does any other player. And I've acknowledge they make content, albeit they have set the bar very low and learned to maximize profit from that content.
You're contradicting yourself, OP. None of us know STO's profit/loss, yet you assume that the bar has been set low. How do you know that the bar isn't set exactly where it should be to keep the game alive?
'The bar has been set low' and the bar being 'set exactly where it should be to keep the game alive' aren't necessarily contradictory statements.
It's very clear to me. Preferably, money-wise, they'd make no new content all all, as doing so cuts into their profits. Not making any fresh content at all, though, would cut into their profits even harder, of course (as ppl would no longer be willing to play the game). So, it's fair to say they found an optimum between the two, by now; and it's likely they're erring on the side of 'not losing too much money on the deal.' (Ergo, 'Do what's minimally required, and not much beyond that.')
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
You know, I believe ST has been growing over all these years because of the exceptional fanbase.
This game allows fan to create their own Star Trek content.
So I believe Cryptic would do well to continue improving that aspect of the game, making it easier for amateur developers to create new missions, with a greater variety of what they can actually implement in those missions. I have a feeling that would limit the expenses (eg. Cryot would continue putting out new content periodically) while ensuring we don't get bored too fast. I personally review and tip the creators, try to run at least one Foundry mission daily to support that part of the game.
We need to keep in mind that the prime objective is to keep this game alive and well on the longterm. High development costs for a lot of new content is just not aligned with that goal, in my sincere opinion.
Unless your game's initials spell "WOW," a "stable monthly subscriber base" won't even keep the lights on at the office. And yes, it's just nostalgia to pretend otherwise.
So you point to one example where it works and use that for the proof it can't work?
Plus I said: "You have to admit that IF they had a stable monthly subscriber base they would PROBABLY put more emphasis on the game-play." So you can keep your attacks to yourself.
Let's say 'Game X' CAN make money with either funding method. Which do you think would give players a better experience? One with a relatively stable monthly income or one that has to push a new shiny object to make money?
The issue is that even sto still has a sub option, which is not taken/used by many players actually, as such most likely there is just not enough players that feel the game is worth subbing too. A static 15 dollar a month sub like wow is just not something most players want to spent, hell even a 5 dollar sub price tag like I think would be fine is most likely too much as well for most players to invest in the game. Also once the game goes back to a sub model, many players would feel that having to purchase with irl money starships, as well as other things we see in the c-store might need to be redone into a different format as players would feel having to buy them on top of a sub-fee is not acceptable.
They just had a lifetime sub sale last week.
Lifetime sub is not the same though as a sub, as the price for a lifetime sub is more of a lump purchase than a sub actually. I mean if we are looking at the game being out for eight years as a example the amount of money even a five dollar sub (480 dollars) would generate is outstripping that purchase price for a one time purchase lifetime sub price, but the idea of a lifetime sub purchase is more about the upfront influx of revenue than the reacuring revenue of a actual sub. They are used for different things, much like an expansion in wow is more used to get a large influx of money to fund any short coming or projects in the works.
I've been a paying monthly subscriber since about 2 months after the f2p launch. I also own a very large number of c-store ships (granted some came from giveaways & some via dillzen), I also have around 20 or so lockbox/lobi ships (from pre-DR T5s to current), most of which I got via EC. Just being a subscriber did not make me less willing to spend on the game, RL issues have to a degree, but I still continue my sub.
Oh yeah though is such a player as yourself the norm? Hell there is alot dislike for games making you purchase additional content, or having either cosmetic or non-cosmetic purchases in games. Even the idea that sto is funded (whether true of not) by the whales of the game, while most players are free to play is the same fact. How many of those players would want to not only now have to put up a sub, and how would they feel about also there being additional items for sale in the store? As a whole I mean.
2 extremes:
No.1: no content/all lockboxes: unless Cryptic assumes that people will stay just to drive new ships to kill the same old missions, this probably kills STO after awhile.
No.2 All content/no lockboxes: Great for the players (unless you are a ship-aholic) but game dies from lack of funding.
There should be a happy medium. imo, we're on the #1 side of the spectrum. For a long while now, all I do is log in, do Borg RA for a bit of ship mastery and then doff/admiralty. Then I log off cause there's nothing else to do that's worth my time. I wouldn't be surprised if they have new content ready to go and only release it when server pop gets 'too low'. And the constant rotation of old events w/ a new shiny reward doesn't really count as new content. Sure, I do it, but generally I pause from other activities to do them, so it's not like Cryptic is getting an more of my time. Today was the first time I even bothered to do any doffing/admiralty in 2 weeks. So yeah, if I had to subscribe for this level low of content release, I'd probably not still be here.
If people spend their time complaining about lack of content instead of playing their game, that's not really making them money either. There are so many ways to waste our time/money now, companies can't just sit back and assume players will wait for stuff at a snail's pace.
For a long while now, all I do is log in, do Borg RA for a bit of ship mastery and then doff/admiralty. Then I log off cause there's nothing else to do that's worth my time.
And NOW you've hit the crux of the issue. It's not that there's nothing else to do. In fact, over the years, they've made plenty of content...but it's all **** and dead because they failed to make it worth anyone's time, and they dug their own hole with the entire marks/rep systems that homogenize all content into a reward-for-time paradigm as it's all the same otherwise. Instead, they waste their efforts destroying otherwise viable old systems with new things that then quickly wither and die because they haven't addressed the problems that killed their old content in the first place!
Take the entire "Salvage" thing. Why did we even need a new salvage currency? Was there not a perfectly good OLD salvage currency that had fallen into disuse, formerly used as a driver to play endgame content? So many otherwise usable things are simply abandoned and left to rot when they could have been put to use in the game...with the result that the game stinks from all this rotten garbage.
I disagree with both points:
Most of us don't want to need to raid 1,000 times to maybe get the tokens needed to gear up. You might have nostalgia glasses about that, but you're almost alone in that view.
Most of us don't want to be forced to do elite raids to use the re-engineering system either.
You like to spend your days in elite queues, and that's great. I'm not going to say that your fun is wrong. But STO is a casual-friendly game where a majority of players don't want to make the effort to "git gud," they just want to play Space Barbie and fly around in their spaceship saving the galaxy as Captain Awesome.
"How do you know that? Maybe everyone secretly wants to do elite queues all day?"
Aside from the dead queues, Cryptic has metrics telling them how players spend their time. If it was in queues instead of story episodes then Cryptic would have shifted emphasis to making more endgame raids years ago.
The main reason I play STO (aside from the Trek) is because all missions are available to play without spending money. They start charging for mission packs & I'm gone. I refuse to pay for story missions in this or any other MMO.
1st - Here is the thing about mission packs or let us say expansion - I do not mind if they sell expansion packs the way it is done in Elder Scrolls Online. That is, make it FREE for subs & Lifers, but the F2P base would have to pay for the expansion. That will bring even more revenue to the game.
Also - "Self Contained mini-mission packs" That is per faction "Containing 4 to 5 long episodes would be equally awesome. And those could be sold in the CStore for a modest zen price. These are faction specific only and not "Official Expansions that contain content, STFs, and Expansion driven episodes."
I would love to see 4 to 5 KDF missions or Romulan missions, as well as Federation missions - independent from each other and specific to a particular faction - That also will help motivate the player base to try the other factions.
This forum is full of people who barely want to play the game at all. All they want is free stuff, guaranteed permanent account-wide unlocks of everything in five minutes auto-win gameplay. Nevermind none of the stuff you can get is even needed for anything anyway. And then they complain there needs to be "more content."
Cryptic listening to those people is responsible for the sorry state of the game now. Game development isn't always about giving players what they want.
The game is full of content, there's just no need to play any of it. And there really should be.
This forum is full of people who barely want to play the game at all. All they want is free stuff, guaranteed permanent account-wide unlocks of everything in five minutes auto-win gameplay. Nevermind none of the stuff you can get is even needed for anything anyway. And then they complain there needs to be "more content."
Cryptic listening to those people is responsible for the sorry state of the game now. Game development isn't always about giving players what they want.
The game is full of content, there's just no need to play any of it. And there really should be.
This is a casual-friendly semi-MMO where Space Barbie is the real endgame. The majority of us paying the bills want it that way.
I want to play the content I want to play, not be forced to do some elite queues "for my own good" just because other people want warm bodies in those queues. I'm playing Star Trek Online not Brussels Sprouts In Space.
I'll eat my veggies in real life, not when I'm trying to relax and have fun.
This forum is full of people who barely want to play the game at all. All they want is free stuff, guaranteed permanent account-wide unlocks of everything in five minutes auto-win gameplay. Nevermind none of the stuff you can get is even needed for anything anyway. And then they complain there needs to be "more content."
Cryptic listening to those people is responsible for the sorry state of the game now. Game development isn't always about giving players what they want.
The game is full of content, there's just no need to play any of it. And there really should be.
This is a casual-friendly semi-MMO where Space Barbie is the real endgame. The majority of us paying the bills want it that way.
I want to play the content I want to play, not be forced to do some elite queues "for my own good" just because other people want warm bodies in those queues. I'm playing Star Trek Online not Brussels Sprouts In Space.
I'll eat my veggies in real life, not when I'm trying to relax and have fun.
This is a videogame, nobody is "forced" to do anything. And there is no need for any "warm bodies" in elite queues. If they rewarded something worthwhile, there'd be players lining up for them. Players who actually want to play them. They are only empty because they, like almost all the queues, are a waste of time.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
They tried this with the borg queues back before the reputation system, and nobody played most of them regardless. People care more about what is fast, and what is easy, over the reward.
"Nobody played most of them"? This is the exact opposite of what I remember. Have we forgotten the crowds hanging around Roxy's office? The fact that ALL 6 of them, both space and ground, popped, pretty much around the clock, whereas today you can't even name 3 space elites that will actually pop? When the "Number Playing" in an STF was generally double digit around the clock? Nobody played them?
Well, nobody's playing them NOW, that's for sure.
would that have been true if people had the option to grind CCA? Back then it was basically the only end-game content.
They tried this with the borg queues back before the reputation system, and nobody played most of them regardless. People care more about what is fast, and what is easy, over the reward.
"Nobody played most of them"? This is the exact opposite of what I remember. Have we forgotten the crowds hanging around Roxy's office? The fact that ALL 6 of them, both space and ground, popped, pretty much around the clock, whereas today you can't even name 3 space elites that will actually pop? When the "Number Playing" in an STF was generally double digit around the clock? Nobody played them?
Well, nobody's playing them NOW, that's for sure.
would that have been true if people had the option to grind CCA? Back then it was basically the only end-game content.
If they wanted the sets, absolutely. Reducing everything to a dil grind has made 99% of the game content pointless. This is not a good thing.
Or 100%, since nobody needs to grind CCA or anything for dil anymore, either. You can get your quota from admiralty and doffing.
They tried this with the borg queues back before the reputation system, and nobody played most of them regardless. People care more about what is fast, and what is easy, over the reward.
"Nobody played most of them"? This is the exact opposite of what I remember. Have we forgotten the crowds hanging around Roxy's office? The fact that ALL 6 of them, both space and ground, popped, pretty much around the clock, whereas today you can't even name 3 space elites that will actually pop? When the "Number Playing" in an STF was generally double digit around the clock? Nobody played them?
Well, nobody's playing them NOW, that's for sure.
would that have been true if people had the option to grind CCA? Back then it was basically the only end-game content.
If they wanted the sets, absolutely. Reducing everything to a dil grind has made 99% of the game content pointless. This is not a good thing.
Or 100%, since nobody needs to grind CCA or anything for dil anymore, either. You can get your quota from admiralty and doffing.
More queue Endeavors would help. I did Counterpoint for the first time in weeks for that.
Also making the XP gain comparable to the Borg red alert, for those of us working through a set of ship mastery traits and those chasing specialization points.
They tried this with the borg queues back before the reputation system, and nobody played most of them regardless. People care more about what is fast, and what is easy, over the reward.
"Nobody played most of them"? This is the exact opposite of what I remember. Have we forgotten the crowds hanging around Roxy's office? The fact that ALL 6 of them, both space and ground, popped, pretty much around the clock, whereas today you can't even name 3 space elites that will actually pop? When the "Number Playing" in an STF was generally double digit around the clock? Nobody played them?
Well, nobody's playing them NOW, that's for sure.
would that have been true if people had the option to grind CCA? Back then it was basically the only end-game content.
If they wanted the sets, absolutely. Reducing everything to a dil grind has made 99% of the game content pointless. This is not a good thing.
Or 100%, since nobody needs to grind CCA or anything for dil anymore, either. You can get your quota from admiralty and doffing.
More queue Endeavors would help. I did Counterpoint for the first time in weeks for that.
Endeavors are themselves just another dil grind.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,676Community Moderator
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
While there are many reasons, chief among them are these:
1: some people view "calls for more content" as a criticism of the game
2: some people view any criticism of something they like as a form of personal insult(which is ridiculous)
3: those people then feel the need to argue against what they feel is a personal insult
Also, unrelated to the above:
4: some people enjoy playing devil's advocate against virtually everything. This means no matter what "idea" someone has, they try to come up with some reason why it "won't work" or "isn't realistic" or what-have-you.
Comments
They just had a lifetime sub sale last week.
You're contradicting yourself, OP. None of us know STO's profit/loss, yet you assume that the bar has been set low. How do you know that the bar isn't set exactly where it should be to keep the game alive?
This is disingenuous. We get a free expansion pack every two years, as well as several "big ticket items" of sorts ON TOP of the usual mission/lockbox/queues/rep.
Not every piece of new content is going to be a story arc.
'The bar has been set low' and the bar being 'set exactly where it should be to keep the game alive' aren't necessarily contradictory statements.
It's very clear to me. Preferably, money-wise, they'd make no new content all all, as doing so cuts into their profits. Not making any fresh content at all, though, would cut into their profits even harder, of course (as ppl would no longer be willing to play the game). So, it's fair to say they found an optimum between the two, by now; and it's likely they're erring on the side of 'not losing too much money on the deal.' (Ergo, 'Do what's minimally required, and not much beyond that.')
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
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This game allows fan to create their own Star Trek content.
So I believe Cryptic would do well to continue improving that aspect of the game, making it easier for amateur developers to create new missions, with a greater variety of what they can actually implement in those missions. I have a feeling that would limit the expenses (eg. Cryot would continue putting out new content periodically) while ensuring we don't get bored too fast. I personally review and tip the creators, try to run at least one Foundry mission daily to support that part of the game.
We need to keep in mind that the prime objective is to keep this game alive and well on the longterm. High development costs for a lot of new content is just not aligned with that goal, in my sincere opinion.
Lifetime sub is not the same though as a sub, as the price for a lifetime sub is more of a lump purchase than a sub actually. I mean if we are looking at the game being out for eight years as a example the amount of money even a five dollar sub (480 dollars) would generate is outstripping that purchase price for a one time purchase lifetime sub price, but the idea of a lifetime sub purchase is more about the upfront influx of revenue than the reacuring revenue of a actual sub. They are used for different things, much like an expansion in wow is more used to get a large influx of money to fund any short coming or projects in the works.
Oh yeah though is such a player as yourself the norm? Hell there is alot dislike for games making you purchase additional content, or having either cosmetic or non-cosmetic purchases in games. Even the idea that sto is funded (whether true of not) by the whales of the game, while most players are free to play is the same fact. How many of those players would want to not only now have to put up a sub, and how would they feel about also there being additional items for sale in the store? As a whole I mean.
No.1: no content/all lockboxes: unless Cryptic assumes that people will stay just to drive new ships to kill the same old missions, this probably kills STO after awhile.
No.2 All content/no lockboxes: Great for the players (unless you are a ship-aholic) but game dies from lack of funding.
There should be a happy medium. imo, we're on the #1 side of the spectrum. For a long while now, all I do is log in, do Borg RA for a bit of ship mastery and then doff/admiralty. Then I log off cause there's nothing else to do that's worth my time. I wouldn't be surprised if they have new content ready to go and only release it when server pop gets 'too low'. And the constant rotation of old events w/ a new shiny reward doesn't really count as new content. Sure, I do it, but generally I pause from other activities to do them, so it's not like Cryptic is getting an more of my time. Today was the first time I even bothered to do any doffing/admiralty in 2 weeks. So yeah, if I had to subscribe for this level low of content release, I'd probably not still be here.
If people spend their time complaining about lack of content instead of playing their game, that's not really making them money either. There are so many ways to waste our time/money now, companies can't just sit back and assume players will wait for stuff at a snail's pace.
I disagree with both points:
Most of us don't want to need to raid 1,000 times to maybe get the tokens needed to gear up. You might have nostalgia glasses about that, but you're almost alone in that view.
Most of us don't want to be forced to do elite raids to use the re-engineering system either.
You like to spend your days in elite queues, and that's great. I'm not going to say that your fun is wrong. But STO is a casual-friendly game where a majority of players don't want to make the effort to "git gud," they just want to play Space Barbie and fly around in their spaceship saving the galaxy as Captain Awesome.
"How do you know that? Maybe everyone secretly wants to do elite queues all day?"
Aside from the dead queues, Cryptic has metrics telling them how players spend their time. If it was in queues instead of story episodes then Cryptic would have shifted emphasis to making more endgame raids years ago.
1st - Here is the thing about mission packs or let us say expansion - I do not mind if they sell expansion packs the way it is done in Elder Scrolls Online. That is, make it FREE for subs & Lifers, but the F2P base would have to pay for the expansion. That will bring even more revenue to the game.
Also - "Self Contained mini-mission packs" That is per faction "Containing 4 to 5 long episodes would be equally awesome. And those could be sold in the CStore for a modest zen price. These are faction specific only and not "Official Expansions that contain content, STFs, and Expansion driven episodes."
I would love to see 4 to 5 KDF missions or Romulan missions, as well as Federation missions - independent from each other and specific to a particular faction - That also will help motivate the player base to try the other factions.
Cryptic listening to those people is responsible for the sorry state of the game now. Game development isn't always about giving players what they want.
The game is full of content, there's just no need to play any of it. And there really should be.
This is a casual-friendly semi-MMO where Space Barbie is the real endgame. The majority of us paying the bills want it that way.
I want to play the content I want to play, not be forced to do some elite queues "for my own good" just because other people want warm bodies in those queues. I'm playing Star Trek Online not Brussels Sprouts In Space.
I'll eat my veggies in real life, not when I'm trying to relax and have fun.
And brussels sprouts are delicious.
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Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
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My character Tsin'xing
Or 100%, since nobody needs to grind CCA or anything for dil anymore, either. You can get your quota from admiralty and doffing.
More queue Endeavors would help. I did Counterpoint for the first time in weeks for that.
Also making the XP gain comparable to the Borg red alert, for those of us working through a set of ship mastery traits and those chasing specialization points.
I'm in it for the ECs right now.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
While there are many reasons, chief among them are these:
1: some people view "calls for more content" as a criticism of the game
2: some people view any criticism of something they like as a form of personal insult(which is ridiculous)
3: those people then feel the need to argue against what they feel is a personal insult
Also, unrelated to the above:
4: some people enjoy playing devil's advocate against virtually everything. This means no matter what "idea" someone has, they try to come up with some reason why it "won't work" or "isn't realistic" or what-have-you.