Pre TOS Enterprise VS Pilot Enterprise MAJOR SPOILER for Season Finally Of Discovery!! you been Worn

ryuranger

Actually there is an Explanation for that there Different Types of Klingons before there were 2 now there 3 with the Augment virus TNG TOS and now Disco living side By Side and the show runners did explain it in the productions that there are Different once living on Q'rnos at the time. These particle once are outcast of the Empire and we shall see more familler once in Season 2 according the Show Producers

rattler2

So I was right? Different Ethnic group?

alexmakepeace

I have yet to actually watch Discovery, but from the screens I'm seeing I think they redesigned the Enterprise very well. It's still clearly the TOS Enterprise, but it looks way better. Swapping out TOS's narrow, straight pylons and wimpy neck for ones more like TMP go a long way to making it look less awkward. Looks like they swapped out the secondary hull for the TMP one, too.

Of course, there are probably still angles where a Connie is just doomed to look awkward no matter what.


I do vastly prefer it to the JJ Enterprise, which I think looks kind of like this:


And it's way better then the Discovery itself, which is awkward from most angles.

smokebailey

alexmakepeace wrote: »

I have yet to actually watch Discovery, but from the screens I'm seeing I think they redesigned the Enterprise very well. It's still clearly the TOS Enterprise, but it looks way better. Swapping out TOS's narrow, straight pylons and wimpy neck for ones more like TMP go a long way to making it look less awkward. Looks like they swapped out the secondary hull for the TMP one, too.

Of course, there are probably still angles where a Connie is just doomed to look awkward no matter what.


I do vastly prefer it to the JJ Enterprise, which I think looks kind of like this:


And it's way better then the Discovery itself, which is awkward from most angles.

I prefer the wimpy neck and straight pylons.

angrytarg

starkaos wrote: »

And THERE WAS NO REASON TO EXPLAIN IT. Enterprise did the Klingon Augment virus story and ruined the joke. I would love to see someone use the DS9 scene, but switch the TOS Klingons with Discovery Klingons since it works so perfectly.

I'm telling this for so long, my tongue is all fuzzy now and it's not (only) from licking funny things and places

ENT augment nonsense is a prime example of needlessly complicated explanations for trivial things that - in my opinion - some people confuse with deep storytelling. It's like people needing to know why O'Brien wore a lieutenant pip one scene and a ensign one the next. "I NEED TO KNOW WHY HE WAS PROMOTED FOR ONE DAY! WHAT'S THE STORY!?"...

However, since ENT canonized the change as something that actually happened, DSCs Klingorks also "need" an explanation now why they are so different from non-augment ENT, TOS and post-TOS Klingons, since it is an actual physical change. And that explanation can only be even more cringeworthy. And no, "different ethnicities" cannot really work since all the great houses looked like it.​​

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

TOS has not been altered. This is set prior to TOS.

True, however that goes with the implications that the starships, uniforms and complete interior in Starfleet get complete structural refits every other year. Which is canonically true, but it's so silly ​​

Oh it is but you've got to keep up traditions.

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ryuranger

patrickngo YES YES I agree with you about it how the DISCO Klingons could have been about the old ways while the TNG and TOS are differint path it could be at some point there may been a civil war between to the clans on witch the DISCO Klingons are whipped out or banned from the home world

starkaos

T'Kuvma didn't seem to have any restrictions to who joined his House as long as they were a believer. It is possible that T'Kuvma's crew were part of failed Houses and the Klingons from lower castes were not shown. Voq could have been thrown out of his House due to his skin color.

If all Klingons shown in Discovery are part of the ruling caste, then it could explain the difference between Enterprise Klingons and Discovery Klingons. Various cultures on Earth have the ruling caste only breed with others with 'noble blood' which results in a bunch of genetic deviations. So Discovery Klingons could be a bunch of blue bloods.

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artan42

I loved ENTs Klingon fur. So practical. Could block a letter opener at long range. I love the TOS lamé. So practical. Could block a papercut from a toddler. I love the TKTs leather coats. So practical. Could stop a small knife. I loved TNGs pleather jerkins. So practical. I'm sure they offer fantastic protection from lightly thrown stones.

I love the TNG bat'leth. A weapon so useless as a sword it spent more time in use as a club. I love the mek'leth. A basic knife but with a hold designed to make it next to useless as you can't reverse your grip on it.

I loved the displays of Klingon martial prowess displayed throughout the TNG era where they get their arses handed to them by Humans, Cardassians, Romulans, Ferengi, and Bajorans (the latter two being about half the bodymass of your average Klingon) as they invaded DS9. Hand to hand no less against people trained only in firearms and unarmed combat against supposedly warrior people armed with their shiniest battle-cutlery.

Shame on DSC for dismantling a fine tradition of impractical and useless Klingon weapons and armour by giving their Klingons impractical and useless Klingon weapons and armour.

Hmm. My argument would probably work better if I directly lied to myself and others and just pretended there has ever been a single redeemable feature to a Klingon weapon or armour in the last 7 series. I know, I'll do that. I do need to hate DSC needlessly after as it is the current 'new' series. I don't have any honest objections though so I'll lie. That always works.

Oh, and the 3dgy! nicknames. Mustn't forget those. I might be taken seriously otherwise.

For my next trick I intend to take non-canon material and present it as canon and they use it as a nice strawman to destroy. If I mix it in with some half-truths and opinions I should be able to sneak it past people so they don't respond to it. As they don't respond to it I was clearly right so I'll keep pretending it's canon and I'll always have another handy lie to pad my wordcount out with when it starts to look like I'm running out of gibberish and blind fanboi rage.

starkaos

Discovery made the useless and impractical weapons of a warrior race to be even more useless and impractical. You know a weapon is beyond useless when it is very easy for the opponent to accidentally kill a Klingon with his own weapon.

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flash525

@ryuranger , before you start with your little rant and rave, you might want to check out what it is you're actually replying too. You wrote:

ryuranger wrote: »

WOW I love how people go saying that NX 01 is More advance then the Original Enterprise was so lets do NX-01 VS NCC 1701

[snip]

When this wasn't actually the case - we were on about the appearance of the ships, and not their respective technology.

theanothername

I love the ST:DIS Enterprise design

legendarylycan

reyan01 wrote: »

rattler2 wrote: »

Well... I can see the same TOS layout but with Discovery style displays. Kinda like a hybrid between TOS and Discovery. I mean we saw touchscreens on the Shenzhou, and she was an older ship.

I have to say, the user interfaces/touchscreens are one area that I feel they got VERY right.

The jellybean interfaces of TOS are all well and good, and nostalgia has its place. But I LOVE Discovery’s consoles. I love that we’re not watching the operator mash buttons that don’t mean anything to us as viewers. The Discovery consoles make sense. The visual element adds something that no trek series ever really did previously (in a meaningful way); we can make some sort of sense of what the console operator is actually doing even if they don't actually tell us.

I mean, so far as I am concerned this:

Makes good sense!

Those displays look like something that could easily have evolved from today’s technology, and I like that.

that's a rather informative screenshot...now we know the discovery (that shot is of one of the discovery's consoles, right?) has 2 fore torpedo launchers and 2 aft torpedo launchers​​

rattler2

I can also see how some elements of the Discovery touchscreens evolved into what we will see on the Enterprise-A, which in turn eventually evolves into the LCARS displays in the 24th Century we're familiar with.

flash525

smokebailey wrote: »

I mean, so far as I am concerned this:

Makes good sense!

...so now it's up to the Captain to fire Torpedoes? Who needs a Tactical Officer when you can do it all from your chair.

legendarylycan

rattler2 wrote: »

I can also see how some elements of the Discovery touchscreens evolved into what we will see on the Enterprise-A, which in turn eventually evolves into the LCARS displays in the 24th Century we're familiar with.

except this interface is superior as far as audience understandability is concerned, because it has actual english on all the buttons, whereas LCARS only had random numbers and letters that meant nothing to the people watching​​

rattler2

flash525 wrote: »

...so now it's up to the Captain to fire Torpedoes? Who needs a Tactical Officer when you can do it all from your chair.

Probaby shows Torp status.

shadowfang240 wrote: »

except this interface is superior as far as audience understandability is concerned, because it has actual english on all the buttons, whereas LCARS only had random numbers and letters that meant nothing to the people watching​​

Visual style evolution. At the end of the day... a keyboard is still a keyboard. A modern touchscreen keyboard like on an iPad can still trace its roots back to a frickin' typewriter.

rattler2

flash525 wrote: »

...so now it's up to the Captain to fire Torpedoes? Who needs a Tactical Officer when you can do it all from your chair.

Probaby shows Torp status.

shadowfang240 wrote: »

except this interface is superior as far as audience understandability is concerned, because it has actual english on all the buttons, whereas LCARS only had random numbers and letters that meant nothing to the people watching​​

Visual style evolution. At the end of the day... a keyboard is still a keyboard. A modern touchscreen keyboard like on an iPad can still trace its roots back to a frickin' typewriter.

artan42

patrickngo wrote: »

Oh, Hi Artan!

Tommy Wiseau? That explains a lot.

patrickngo wrote: »

here's what you appear to be missing: They might not be real good armor, but the furs and the lame don't impede MOVEMENT while failing to block a letter opener or baby-kitty claw.

and disco's armor does EXACTLY that-impeding movement while simultaneously being useless as protection.

Except it dosn't. It's clearly better as armour, or it would be if we'd seen the Torchbearer armour in use (so the armour not the EV suit). It would make them less manoeuvrable but more protected like all plate armour does, whereas the pleather and furs of what came before are just pointlessly elaborat uniforms done up to look kinda armourish.

I'm sure you've noticed through watching the show that the fully armoured Klingons are very rare. T'Kuvma's crew wear what looks like heavy fabric segmented into plates topped with armoured pieces (such as the chest and forearms) resembling Conquistadors or Samurai rather than a Norwegian Death Metal band. Kol and most of the other Klingons wear ENT style robes and furs with gauntlets and other scraps of armour that make them manoeuvrable and armoured in key places unlike TONs pleater.

Watch Kol fight Burnham. He has the upper hand throughout, he's armoured enough to prevent anything important from being stabbed and fast enough to keep up with a human wearing only a tight jumpsuit and a lightweight vest. He gets stabbed once in the middle of the leg between his boot and under his thigh armour which slows him down so little he's not even limping by the end of it. He's not as fast as Kor would be, dressed in his silly gold striped top, but he's not a plodding tank you seem to think he would be. He's fast enough to be using a mek'leth rather than a Bat'leth, 'cos you don't use a short range weapon if you think you're going to be sat in one place for long.

patrickngo wrote: »

and here's a thought for you to consider

I'll give it a go but it's going a bit to far down the rabbit hole.

patrickngo wrote: »

(I know you won't, you're still pretending to ignore me)

I saw your comment on my phone (as I occasionally don't know who it is) but found it a semi-coherent post, enough to titillate me into replying.
So, I'm sure if you thought it through even you could work out that if you wake up to a reply to post from me then I'm not really maintaining a pretence am I? If you wake up to no reply from me then the most you can conclude is that the cat is both alive and dead simultaneously.

patrickngo wrote: »

but if you can't HOLD a weapon, you can't fight with it. That's a pretty basic thing with melee weapons or firearms-if you can't hold a ranged weapon steady, it's not going to hit your target, and if it's got automatic targeting it can still miss unless the round is guided, so if you ain't holding it steady, your autotargeting is bupkiss anyway.

So mek'leth's are out as you can't reverse your grip. Bat'leth's are out as whenever you see a Klingon in TNG trying to do that fancy spinning thing they have to stop at the zenith to hold it with the other hand to avoid stabbing their own wrist. The ENT disruptors are out as they are basically a glue gun painted red meaning you can't hold them as you would a gun. Hll the handles on the KT disruptors from the 09 deleted scene point backwards!

However TNG Disruptor rifles that have a stock should be lethal right? Hmm, I seem to remeber they spent most of their invasion of DS9 getting steamrollered and being about as accurate as Stormtroopers. all of the three TNG era series now I come to think of it.

patrickngo wrote: »

Klingork

2edgy4me.

patrickngo wrote: »

gear isn't steady, and it's very poorly laid out for something shaped like a man with four fingers and a thumb, articulated like a man (or a Klingon). This is stuff most genuinely warlike societies in history figured out very quickly, only adopting 'rituality' after they've been sedentary with no (serious) opposition for a few centuries.

So basically you've realised that Star Trek designers like to make things look cool and not like functional weapons? Well that's a very roundabout way of saying you agree with me an my post, but you do need to put in a bit where you apologise for even hinting that DSC is doing something new here over TOS or TNG.

patrickngo wrote: »

there's a reason Romans went to war in leather skirts instead of bronze plate that was common for the Greeks they were conquering, and why their later armors tended to follow the leather skirt pattern instead of full-body iron.

Both cultures dressed pretty much like the DSC Klingons. Strong fabric bases, light armour over the vital parts.

patrickngo wrote: »

and only after 'warfare' was strictly regulated by the Church to make it even mildly practical.)

Whut?​​

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starkaos

That is assuming that the 'blue bloods' used genetic engineering. Inbreeding could cause the same problems without the use of genetic engineering. Also, genetic engineering to a ruling class implies that the Klingons would be more competent. It is possible that the common folk was genetically engineered to be more resilient and the 'blue bloods' tried to keep their genetics pure. After all, the Klingons in the Ethics episode of TNG stated "Almost every vital function in their bodies has a built-in redundancy in case any primary organ or system fails."

ryuranger

That's True for the Kilngons. Do not forget this is 10 years before Kirk so the Enterprise We See now could only be a Enterprise Before a refit that took place in 2265 one of the reasons for the Constitution Class Long Genitive compare to other classes is that it can be upgraded more easily then other Starships and the end of every 5 year mission she they go under refit as well. It actually said in the First 150 years of the Federation that main propose for the Constitution Class is to be in service for mroe then 5 years with out use for a starbase for a refit like the Columbia Class (Renamed NX Class after the Forming of the Federation) and Dundless Class. So that being said this is the Enterprise that Pike Commanded and when Kirk took command she had an upgraded too like New Bridge Modual and hall Refit as well

rattler2

I think the redundant organs was natural evolution. Also after the Augment Virus, I seriously doubt the Klingons would touch Genetic Engineering again.

starkaos

rattler2 wrote: »

I think the redundant organs was natural evolution. Also after the Augment Virus, I seriously doubt the Klingons would touch Genetic Engineering again.

Could have happened before and against their will. The Hur'q could have enslaved some of the Klingons before the Klingons wiped them out. Klingons being enslaved to an alien race would be something that they would not mention in history books. Multiple redundancies would be a good trait to genetically engineer into warriors and slaves.

jonsills

starkaos wrote: »

...genetic engineering to a ruling class implies that the Klingons would be more competent.

That's an unjustified assumption. While we here on Earth don't really have genetic engineering as such yet, and seem to have abandoned the old feudal ways (for now - that failure mode is always available), we have been known to breed weaknesses into our so-called "leading classes". The former insistence in Europe that royalty could only marry royalty, for instance, gave us kings and queens whose heritable diseases, from porphyria to hemophilia to congenital insanity, were sometimes seen as signs of divine favor for the rulers. And what we've done to the proud wolves of the Paleolithic barely bears mentioning.

Given that the Klingon Empire embraces a feudalistic ethic wholeheartedly, it's not beyond belief that upon the acquisition of genetic-engineering technology (whether of their own invention or stolen from others), they might have begun redesigning their working classes to be more resilient (thus the redundant-organ thing), while creating more, well, decadent designs for the upper crust (who, since they don't have to labor, don't need to be as strong or hardy as the lower classes). Of course, when the entire social structure was upended in the hypothetical revolution, which to fit our scenario should be taking place in ST:D's very near future, their decadence spelled their demise, just as decadent ruling classes in our own history have been destroyed by peasant rebellions. (Then the pattern usually had the peasants simply taking over as the new lords and starting the cycle again, but Klingons aren't Human and aren't bound by our psychological limitations.)

All that's required here is for that upper class to believe that their being in charge is just "natural" - then they don't have to use gengineering to become "more competent", because they think they're in their position in society due to Natural Law. (There are more examples of this in Earth's history than I have time to recount here, so I'll leave that as an exercise for the alert student.)

starkaos

jonsills wrote: »

starkaos wrote: »

...genetic engineering to a ruling class implies that the Klingons would be more competent.

That's an unjustified assumption. While we here on Earth don't really have genetic engineering as such yet, and seem to have abandoned the old feudal ways (for now - that failure mode is always available), we have been known to breed weaknesses into our so-called "leading classes". The former insistence in Europe that royalty could only marry royalty, for instance, gave us kings and queens whose heritable diseases, from porphyria to hemophilia to congenital insanity, were sometimes seen as signs of divine favor for the rulers. And what we've done to the proud wolves of the Paleolithic barely bears mentioning.

Given that the Klingon Empire embraces a feudalistic ethic wholeheartedly, it's not beyond belief that upon the acquisition of genetic-engineering technology (whether of their own invention or stolen from others), they might have begun redesigning their working classes to be more resilient (thus the redundant-organ thing), while creating more, well, decadent designs for the upper crust (who, since they don't have to labor, don't need to be as strong or hardy as the lower classes). Of course, when the entire social structure was upended in the hypothetical revolution, which to fit our scenario should be taking place in ST:D's very near future, their decadence spelled their demise, just as decadent ruling classes in our own history have been destroyed by peasant rebellions. (Then the pattern usually had the peasants simply taking over as the new lords and starting the cycle again, but Klingons aren't Human and aren't bound by our psychological limitations.)

All that's required here is for that upper class to believe that their being in charge is just "natural" - then they don't have to use gengineering to become "more competent", because they think they're in their position in society due to Natural Law. (There are more examples of this in Earth's history than I have time to recount here, so I'll leave that as an exercise for the alert student.)

If genetic engineering is used on both classes, then the commoners would get the resilient and strength modifications while the ruling class would get the intelligence and perhaps control (pheremones, mind control, etc) modifications. Since the Discovery Klingons don't seem to be competent, then I doubt they received any genetic engineering or it failed miserably. Of course, it is more likely that the commoners got the genetic engineering while the ruling class decided to remain 'pure'.

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