I am still combing through Episode 1 and Episode 2 to find bits I am missing to the story....I think I need to watch Episode 2 one more time. Something is not right...I can't put my finger on it.
The way Commander Burnham loses it...I mean mutiny? Mutiny and rain death on Klingons? And here she was being recommended for her own command? Captain Georgiou does not come across as a **** up who would just recommend anyone. And she is surprised by Michael is doing.
Was she looking to rain death on the Klingons or fire a single shot? I took it that she was just looking to fire once, not destroy them.
As for her choice to mutiny, she was doing it for the right reasons (saving her Captain and crew - something many a prior Trek character has done) and we did see she is prone to becoming overcome with emotion like when she was at the Vulcan academy. Granted, it does seem odd that this would be the first time Captain Georgiou would have seen this side of Burnham in their years serving together. Perhaps she has, we just haven't seen it yet and will via flashback sequences or never seen it to this extreme due to the circumstances.
I think the key here was. She was prone to overcome by emotion when it came to the Klingons.
She seemed perfectly fine under any other circumstance. I would say it is a case of PTSD, something the Vulcans can't really teach her to deal with. Emotions just work too differently for them. Maybe it would have been caught and treated at Starfleet Academy or if she had been grown up among humans, but she did not.
the problem is, she was doing irrational things before she even SAW a Klingon. with a 19 minute window before they can't fix the damage, she was supposed to do a fly by of the object. she loses radio contact with it in full view...
and decides to land and go for a walk, with her radio out.
on a clearly alien object that she already KNOWS is broadcasting a distortion field.
while being bombarded by enough radiation that she's taking damage.
Rationally/logically, was NOT what she was acting on. she didn't even SEE 'klingon' until she put boots to the object. under the conditions, she was signing up for a Darwin nomination-as anyone who's worked in a hazardous environment can attest-when you lose contact with the boat, you don't go poking DEEPER unless you've got NO OTHER CHOICE.
she didn't even bother to establish the travel range she'd need to restore radio contact. These are things people like Divers, and ASTRONAUTS train into their reflexes, because nobody's going to look at your paper or read your report if you're too dead to write and/or publish.
I don't know, I've seen too many Starfleet characters going beyond regulations or taking risks for the sake of satisfying their curiosity, following a hunch or just risking something in the hope of gaining some advantage or knowledge that I just can't fault her for that. It does not seem out of the ordinary. (And yes, sometimes they get chewed out for it by their superiors, too.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Rationally/logically, was NOT what she was acting on. she didn't even SEE 'klingon' until she put boots to the object. under the conditions, she was signing up for a Darwin nomination-as anyone who's worked in a hazardous environment can attest-when you lose contact with the boat, you don't go poking DEEPER unless you've got NO OTHER CHOICE.
she didn't even bother to establish the travel range she'd need to restore radio contact. These are things people like Divers, and ASTRONAUTS train into their reflexes, because nobody's going to look at your paper or read your report if you're too dead to write and/or publish.
OR... she was thinking, "if I pull back I won't get a second chance to examine this thing."
While it does seem to make sense to back off enough to get a message off, that leaves you vulnerable. Once you establish you're in hostile territory you need to either get to cover or get out. Taking cover inside an enemy structure, is not necessarily safe, but when you have so few other options....
That's funny. My son actually telling me If it doesn't look like a Klingon. doesn't sound like and Klingon and doesn't feel like a Klingon then it's not a Klingon. He was very disappointed with the new Klingons and just can't accept that they are Klingons.
Show him a TOS Klingon and tell him that's what they initially looked like.
I've never really understood that. I know there are major differences between TOS and TNG Klingons, but they actually look really similar to me.
Probably the fairest review I've seen on YouTube...
Already watched it and at the end of it he says if the writing doesn't improve he's done with it.
Your point?
He's very even-handed, and is not losing his mind like those Midnight's Edge clowns.
I don't need someone to open-mouth-kiss CBS in their review. I also don't need a review that says canon, television, and general happiness is ruined forever because of Discovery.
That's funny. My son actually telling me If it doesn't look like a Klingon. doesn't sound like and Klingon and doesn't feel like a Klingon then it's not a Klingon. He was very disappointed with the new Klingons and just can't accept that they are Klingons.
Show him a TOS Klingon and tell him that's what they initially looked like.
I've never really understood that. I know there are major differences between TOS and TNG Klingons, but they actually look really similar to me.
If he's like most kids he'll tell you the new version looks better.
That's funny. My son actually telling me If it doesn't look like a Klingon. doesn't sound like and Klingon and doesn't feel like a Klingon then it's not a Klingon. He was very disappointed with the new Klingons and just can't accept that they are Klingons.
Show him a TOS Klingon and tell him that's what they initially looked like.
I've never really understood that. I know there are major differences between TOS and TNG Klingons, but they actually look really similar to me.
If he's like most kids he'll tell you the new version looks better.
Dunno. Batmanmarch's Doctor Who reviews and discussions prove otherwise.
Not all younger folks steer to the new, shiny versions of things.
@patrickngo: The radiation was a known factor, yes.
So was the jamming. If the ship's sensors aren't getting through, her pissy little suit radio for damn sure isn't.
Conclusion: everybody from the captain on down full well expected her to lose contact. I'd wager Georgiou also expected Burnham to go take a closer look than she'd told her to, because it's likely Georgiou herself would have done the same.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
the problem is, she was doing irrational things before she even SAW a Klingon. with a 19 minute window before they can't fix the damage, she was supposed to do a fly by of the object. she loses radio contact with it in full view...
and decides to land and go for a walk, with her radio out.
on a clearly alien object that she already KNOWS is broadcasting a distortion field.
while being bombarded by enough radiation that she's taking damage.
Rationally/logically, was NOT what she was acting on. she didn't even SEE 'klingon' until she put boots to the object. under the conditions, she was signing up for a Darwin nomination-as anyone who's worked in a hazardous environment can attest-when you lose contact with the boat, you don't go poking DEEPER unless you've got NO OTHER CHOICE.
she didn't even bother to establish the travel range she'd need to restore radio contact. These are things people like Divers, and ASTRONAUTS train into their reflexes, because nobody's going to look at your paper or read your report if you're too dead to write and/or publish.
THIS part I don't understand fully, yet.
Other than show Vulcan logic doesn't teach Humans common sense?
Were they just adding it to the plot to show it was part of her thought processes?
That she would "logic" out actions that were risky or insubordinate on a regular basis. Because to her Vulcan trained mind it was the correct action....and she would almost always choose to go this direction.
That she would use logic to override what she thought was an emotional response but it reality was common sense. Look at her, she even suggests the riskiest option: a space walk through an asteroid belt. What happened to the drone that tractored the communication relay?
And when her emotions REALLY comes into play....watch out!! She can't handle it at all. I am at the point where I wonder: did all that radiation scramble her brain chemical balance in a way that could not be fixed?
And they (the writers) thought it would advance the Klingon story by having Starfleet officer kill a warrior before a single shot was fired. Or people would be less sympathetic toward Cmdr. Burgham (make the hero of the story the fall guy) so she could redeem herself later in the story in a bigger way? Because right now, everyone is blaming her for starting the war. But she didn't, really.
I, also, think Captain Georgiou had a huge blind spot to this fault in her XO. Why would she even think of recommending Commander Burnham for her own ship...knowing this? She has probably made mistakes due to her XO on previous accounts...which, of course, ultimately leads to her demise.
Anyways...it is a really BAD part of this story. I don't even think it needed to be in there... other than someone was thinking: OOOOOo look we can add a cool space scene.
At this point, the plot is so vague and thin....I can't make heads or tails of where the writers are going with the story. I am even looking at the season preview at the end of Episode 2 for clues.
I need to see Episode 3.
(Extra text so my edits take and this does not get deleted....don't you just love this forum....damn thing)
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
@where2r1: Again, seriously, think for a minute. Where the frell are people getting the idea that Burnham shot first or that she was unprovoked when she killed the torchbearer? Let's go over it again. Pay attention this time.
1. Klingons shot first, with an infrastructure attack against Federation property. This after intermittent raids on civilian targets for a good century.
2. When confronted by the torchbearer, she attempted to identify herself, and the Klingon swung a bat'leth before she finished. That thing hits her, she's dead: he doesn't need to cut her body, he tears her suit and she'll asphyxiate long before she dies of radiation poisoning. She defended herself the only way she could: by body-slamming him.
For crying out loud, were you people watching a different channel or something and only got your information from YouTube reviewers?
/Feedingtheeditmonster
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I know this page isn't talking about the tech/uniform discrepancies anymore, but I just came across David Mack's rationalization for Discovery fitting in with Pike's Enterprise in the DSC novel. Thought it was cool.
"The differences in technology posed a different hurdle. I posited that the use of subspace holograms had fallen out of favor by the time the Enterprise was built because the holograms were bandwidth hogs on subspace channels and prone to encryption flaws. And while the interfaces on the Shenzhou’s bridge look fancier, the characters who serve on the Enterprise feel proud that their ship is so advanced that it doesn’t need all these gadgets to get the job done.
I have a moment near the end of the book when the Shenzhou lands what the crew thinks is a solid hit on the enemy — and then they watch a phaser beam from the Enterprise’s state-of-the-art weapons carve off part of the enemy’s hull. And the Shenzhou crew is just flabbergasted and in awe. In that moment we see their respect and reverence for the majesty of a Constitution-class starship.
As far as the differences in the crews’ uniforms, there is ample precedent in real life for a military service having multiple approved duty uniforms at any given time, and sometimes special uniforms for elite units, etc. So my retcon for the difference in the uniforms is that most of Starfleet is wearing the “utility blue” jumpsuits of the Shenzhou crew.
But the crews of the Enterprise and other Constitution-class ships are considered elite units, so they’ve been issued special “diplomatic” uniforms to designate their status. What I like about my solution is that it explains the apparent discrepancy while showing proper reverence for the Original Series."
Patrick, I just got done reading a book where the viewpoint character dies after falling and landing on his own knife (he spends the rest of the series as a ghost). Sh*t happens: there's a reason your mama told you not to run with scissors. Why is that so terribly implausible? And why is it implausible that Burnham, a seven-year veteran (and one raised in Vulcan gravity, no less), would have enough combat training to get lucky in that manner?
Remember, Starfleet officers multiclass.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
who says the torchbearer actually WAS a warrior? that was the albino klingon, and they seem to be looked down on by the rest of the klingons, so who's to say he ever received ANY kind of martial training?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
That she would use logic to override what she thought was an emotional response but it reality was common sense. Look at her, she even suggests the riskiest option: a space walk through an asteroid belt. What happened to the drone that tractored the communication relay?
How well do you think the drone works in the jamming field? Their starship sensors couldn't get a good look at it, that means it's sensors will be just as useless. (Worse if it's actually be remote operated).
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
except that's how you tell fiction from fact: Fiction has to make sense, reality doesn't.
Following this logic, why are you even watching Star Trek? It doesn't make sense that things like transporters or warp drive or time travel exist in reality, but those are ok??
Well, we truly don't know that any of those things can't exist, all we know is that our current technological advancement and scientific understanding do not allow them. But I'll be damned if I'd ever use a transporter if it was real, no way, not gonna happen, not taking the chance of dieing and having a copy live out the rest of my life.
Comments
I don't know, I've seen too many Starfleet characters going beyond regulations or taking risks for the sake of satisfying their curiosity, following a hunch or just risking something in the hope of gaining some advantage or knowledge that I just can't fault her for that. It does not seem out of the ordinary. (And yes, sometimes they get chewed out for it by their superiors, too.)
While it does seem to make sense to back off enough to get a message off, that leaves you vulnerable. Once you establish you're in hostile territory you need to either get to cover or get out. Taking cover inside an enemy structure, is not necessarily safe, but when you have so few other options....
My character Tsin'xing
I've never really understood that. I know there are major differences between TOS and TNG Klingons, but they actually look really similar to me.
Your point?
He's very even-handed, and is not losing his mind like those Midnight's Edge clowns.
I don't need someone to open-mouth-kiss CBS in their review. I also don't need a review that says canon, television, and general happiness is ruined forever because of Discovery.
My character Tsin'xing
Dunno. Batmanmarch's Doctor Who reviews and discussions prove otherwise.
Not all younger folks steer to the new, shiny versions of things.
So was the jamming. If the ship's sensors aren't getting through, her pissy little suit radio for damn sure isn't.
Conclusion: everybody from the captain on down full well expected her to lose contact. I'd wager Georgiou also expected Burnham to go take a closer look than she'd told her to, because it's likely Georgiou herself would have done the same.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
THIS part I don't understand fully, yet.
Other than show Vulcan logic doesn't teach Humans common sense?
Were they just adding it to the plot to show it was part of her thought processes?
That she would "logic" out actions that were risky or insubordinate on a regular basis. Because to her Vulcan trained mind it was the correct action....and she would almost always choose to go this direction.
That she would use logic to override what she thought was an emotional response but it reality was common sense. Look at her, she even suggests the riskiest option: a space walk through an asteroid belt. What happened to the drone that tractored the communication relay?
And when her emotions REALLY comes into play....watch out!! She can't handle it at all. I am at the point where I wonder: did all that radiation scramble her brain chemical balance in a way that could not be fixed?
And they (the writers) thought it would advance the Klingon story by having Starfleet officer kill a warrior before a single shot was fired. Or people would be less sympathetic toward Cmdr. Burgham (make the hero of the story the fall guy) so she could redeem herself later in the story in a bigger way? Because right now, everyone is blaming her for starting the war. But she didn't, really.
I, also, think Captain Georgiou had a huge blind spot to this fault in her XO. Why would she even think of recommending Commander Burnham for her own ship...knowing this? She has probably made mistakes due to her XO on previous accounts...which, of course, ultimately leads to her demise.
Anyways...it is a really BAD part of this story. I don't even think it needed to be in there... other than someone was thinking: OOOOOo look we can add a cool space scene.
At this point, the plot is so vague and thin....I can't make heads or tails of where the writers are going with the story. I am even looking at the season preview at the end of Episode 2 for clues.
I need to see Episode 3.
(Extra text so my edits take and this does not get deleted....don't you just love this forum....damn thing)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
1. Klingons shot first, with an infrastructure attack against Federation property. This after intermittent raids on civilian targets for a good century.
2. When confronted by the torchbearer, she attempted to identify herself, and the Klingon swung a bat'leth before she finished. That thing hits her, she's dead: he doesn't need to cut her body, he tears her suit and she'll asphyxiate long before she dies of radiation poisoning. She defended herself the only way she could: by body-slamming him.
For crying out loud, were you people watching a different channel or something and only got your information from YouTube reviewers?
/Feedingtheeditmonster
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I have a moment near the end of the book when the Shenzhou lands what the crew thinks is a solid hit on the enemy — and then they watch a phaser beam from the Enterprise’s state-of-the-art weapons carve off part of the enemy’s hull. And the Shenzhou crew is just flabbergasted and in awe. In that moment we see their respect and reverence for the majesty of a Constitution-class starship.
As far as the differences in the crews’ uniforms, there is ample precedent in real life for a military service having multiple approved duty uniforms at any given time, and sometimes special uniforms for elite units, etc. So my retcon for the difference in the uniforms is that most of Starfleet is wearing the “utility blue” jumpsuits of the Shenzhou crew.
But the crews of the Enterprise and other Constitution-class ships are considered elite units, so they’ve been issued special “diplomatic” uniforms to designate their status. What I like about my solution is that it explains the apparent discrepancy while showing proper reverence for the Original Series."
Interview:
trekcore.com/blog/2017/09/interview-david-mack-star-trek-discovery-desperate-hours
Remember, Starfleet officers multiclass.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Well, we truly don't know that any of those things can't exist, all we know is that our current technological advancement and scientific understanding do not allow them. But I'll be damned if I'd ever use a transporter if it was real, no way, not gonna happen, not taking the chance of dieing and having a copy live out the rest of my life.