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Return of The Dominion: The Speculation Thread

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    asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    stupid post hungry forum ate my post, and did not let me post it with a quote

    To somtaawkhar

    That being true it does not directly state they have not been working on ideas/plots to deal with them either, but it does say they do plan/had planned on conquering the Dominion. Even though it does state that till they gain the needed resources via conquering the alpha/beta quad, that they should observe the Dominion an not engage them yet. An just by how the Iconians worked in the episodes it would seem strange for them to not have things in the works for when they do engage them, and they did know the Dominion had located a sphere so the Iconians purging info on anything they had planned encase they find an gain access to a sphere would make sense.

    Though i will say that outside of detailing things their agents had done on earth in the past, or merely ideas of how to deal getting the Klingons to become a servitor race (into he entry it sounded like they had tried to harvest them in the past) they don't really detail any current plans or plots against the races of the galaxy.

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    asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    asuran14 wrote: »
    and they did know the Dominion had located a sphere
    The Dominion never found a sphere, don't know where you got that idea.

    Was mistaken meant gateway
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    So back to step one: why are the Dominion ships visiting DS9?

    Is it just Odo paying a social call on Kai Kira?

    I objected, as a player, to simple repeats of what has gone before. We don't need Loriss to retake DS9, or fight off wave after wave of Jem Hadar ships: we've done that.

    It has been proposed that they are seeking help against whatever has the Tzenkethi in a lather. Since we have no idea what that is, it is difficult to speculate further down that line.

    It has been speculated that we as players will return to the Gamma Quadrant either to fight or aid the Dominion. In either case, it has been argued, the relative power of the Dominion and the Alliance makes that either foolish or unnecessary. But we do know there are things the Federation does better than The Dominion, one example of which is the disease created to infect the Great Link. Perhaps there are other areas in which the Alliance proves superior to the Dominion.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    a social call with a small armada? i don't think so

    it COULD be a diplomatic convoy, but i got this niggling feeling it isn't​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
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    asuran14asuran14 Member Posts: 2,335 Arc User
    In some ways I wonder if we might see some Jem'hadar that are running from the Dominion after rebelling, which has happened in the past, and might be seeking asylum or allies in the Alliance (or with the New link an Alpha Jem'hadar). After re-watching the end of it several times the fleet coming thru the wormhole actually looks kinda small. Though i will say in ways this would be something I might like as I would not mind actually having the ability to roll a Jem'hadar (though even a Vorta would be fun), and many players have been asking for the ability to play as a Jem'hadar (either in a dominion faction, or as I prefer as a new race option for the existing factions).
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    Which would be foolush due to the exponential growth in power of the Alliance compared to the stagnation of the Dominion since last we fought.

    Mine the wormhole, turn DS9 into a fortress, and use Iconian Gates and Slipstream Drive to make hit and run raids anywhere in the Dominion. Then take the leash off the Klingons. The Alliance might not win, but there won't be much of a Dominion left when it's over.

    The Dominion can't help but know this. Plus, they have no reason to want to attack the Alliance: with a treaty in place, the Alliance stabilizes a great many otherwise volatile and potentially hostile species, and stands ready to render aid and assistance to The Dominion at need. To attack theough the Wormhole is to invite disaster, and the Dominion, last I checked, was heavily invested in maintaining order in their space.

    A final note: everything we 'know' about The Dominion we learned by asking The Dominion. They could be lying. After all, the average Vorta doesn't know anything more about The Dominion than he needs to do his job, and of course, a Founder would never lie. Unless there was a reason. Like when misleading a potential adversary about the extent of Dominion power.
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,282 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    Which would be foolush due to the exponential growth in power of the Alliance compared to the stagnation of the Dominion since last we fought.

    Mine the wormhole, turn DS9 into a fortress, and use Iconian Gates and Slipstream Drive to make hit and run raids anywhere in the Dominion. Then take the leash off the Klingons. The Alliance might not win, but there won't be much of a Dominion left when it's over.

    The Dominion can't help but know this. Plus, they have no reason to want to attack the Alliance: with a treaty in place, the Alliance stabilizes a great many otherwise volatile and potentially hostile species, and stands ready to render aid and assistance to The Dominion at need. To attack theough the Wormhole is to invite disaster, and the Dominion, last I checked, was heavily invested in maintaining order in their space.

    A final note: everything we 'know' about The Dominion we learned by asking The Dominion. They could be lying. After all, the average Vorta doesn't know anything more about The Dominion than he needs to do his job, and of course, a Founder would never lie. Unless there was a reason. Like when misleading a potential adversary about the extent of Dominion power.

    yeah, the klingons during the war were BARELY holding the line against what was essentially a tiny vanguard of the dominion after the breen entered the war with their OP I-Win Macguffin weapon while the federation and romulans were scrambling to find a countermeasure...they try to fight the ACTUAL dominion in the gamma quadrant, even if they sent their entire fleet down to the last ship, there would be nothing left but debris

    the dominion really are that damn powerful - even with all the technological advancements the alliance forces have been making with captured technology, i seriously doubt the dominion's R&D divisions have been idle either​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    And that data is a decade old. Think of the many innovations and discoveries we've made that The Dominion hasn't.

    Power is not measured in numbers of ships. If that were the case Sir Francis Drake would be a forgotten footnote in a Spanish History text in the library of Universidad de Oxford. Power is also a reflection of technological capacity, which the Alliance has been gaining steadily. And a decade past, the Federation was already the technological equal of The Dominion.

    Since then we've learned time travel, which allows us to be exactly where we need to be exactly when we need to be there with exactly what we need to win.

    We've learned to turn stars off and on like light bulbs. While this may not bother the Founders much, their client species are still dependent upon sunlight. Threaten the Federation enough and you might discover a fleet of very tiny ships going around turning out the lights.

    We've learned a great deal about Iconian technology, and Borg technology, and Undine biotechnology, and Voth technology.

    By now the Dominion is clearly the technological inferior to the Alliance. They just are not the threat they were when DS9 was on the air. And they know it.
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    ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,571 Arc User
    Well the First Federation could come to our aid. With the trend on ship size what a great R&D Promotion Pack prize the Fesarius would be. :)

    So who would win out the Old Dominion or the First of all the Federations?
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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    brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    Power is not measured in numbers of ships. If that were the case Sir Francis Drake would be a forgotten footnote in a Spanish History text in the library of Universidad de Oxford. Power is also a reflection of technological capacity, which the Alliance has been gaining steadily. And a decade past, the Federation was already the technological equal of The Dominion.
    No they weren't. It was admitted many times that the Dominion was technologically ahead of the Federation by many many years. The only thing the Federation had in favor over The Dominion technology wise was the creativity to make something out of seemingly nothing. Or as The Dominion put it, to make rocks into replicators. Beyond that, the Dominion was technologically more advanced by centuries, as they should be given that they have existed for 2,000 years, while the Federation has only existed for 200.

    By that logic Imperial China should have been more technologically advanced than Europe. Stability does not lead to technological innovation. And when I saw the Dominion fighting the ships of the races who would become the future Alliance, they didn't seem to have any advantage that the Federation didn't have. In fact, the few whiz-bangs they did have were neutralized in short order and, after the first encounters, they were on more or less equal footing.

    This does not add up to superior technology to me, and sounds a lot more like Dominion propaganda than established fact.
    brian334 wrote: »
    Since then we've learned time travel, which allows us to be exactly where we need to be exactly when we need to be there with exactly what we need to win.
    Except that isn't how time travel works, and every member of the Alliance believes it should only be used as an ultimate last ditch resort weapon. Even then, the original plan wasn't to use it to kill anyone, it was to use it to try to bring back Romulus, and delay the Iconian's invasion by several hundred years. Even with the power to destroy the Iconians, it was still preferable to simply fight them head on rather then use time travel to kill them. The Alliance isn't going to use it in typical warfare.

    But if the Federation cannot win the choice is subjugation or to win by any means. Not all humans will submit, and neither will the Klingons. Federation values are easy to discard if the Federation is about to cease to exist. Especially if you are doing it without permission to begin with.
    brian334 wrote: »
    We've learned to turn stars off and on like light bulbs. While this may not bother the Founders much, their client species are still dependent upon sunlight. Threaten the Federation enough and you might discover a fleet of very tiny ships going around turning out the lights.
    Not really. Kal Dano did, several hundred years in the future. But his Tox Uthat was taken and installed in the Enterprise J, and remains in the future with it. There is also no way that, even if they did have that power, The Alliance would use it in such a fashion. Especially not after what happened to the Lukari, and the Na'Kuhl. Such an act is a war crime of the highest order.

    But scientists need only know a thing is possible to reverse engineer it. At that point it becomes a matter of time and resources. And if the Federation is doomed, who will ever try you for war crimes? The Jem Hadar would use such a weapon, and in planning a war you always plan to counter the things you would do, so Dominion war planners must account for the possibility before they start a war.
    brian334 wrote: »
    We've learned a great deal about Iconian technology, and Borg technology, and Undine biotechnology, and Voth technology.

    By now the Dominion is clearly the technological inferior to the Alliance. They just are not the threat they were when DS9 was on the air. And they know it.
    While it is true we have learned much about many different alien species's technology, none of them except the Iconians were more powerful then The Dominion. And even with what we learned from Iconian technology, we still weren't able to match the Iconians as equals in battle.

    What is your source for your assertions of Dominion power? I've seen all of DS9, and I have yet to see anything like the level of power you describe. Indeed, other than statements by Dominion subjects, I have seen zero confirmation of those assertions. I'm not saying they aren't true, but that I just haven't seen the disparity of technology you describe. The Dominion came in with its biggest baddest weapon and a Klingon ship accidentally withstands it. Within a month the weapon is useless in the Alpha Quadrant. A third rate Ferengi maintenance tech creates a minefield which requires months for the Dominion, with Cardassian help, to figure out. This doesn't smell like technological supremacy to me. Add to that the fact that the Federation has had a decade to study Dominion technology.

    There is an obvious disparity in power, but it's not on the side of The Dominion. Not on anything seen on the shows, anyway. They could do a lot of damage, but they can never defeat the Alliance unless they were intentionally holding back the last time they tried, and everything I saw on screen at the time says they took their best shot and lost.


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    thomaselkinsthomaselkins Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    As of right now I just don't understand why we would fight the Dominion. We've met them a handful of times already and each time it was relatively peaceful. We needed help with the 2800 and they agreed to help as long as we gave the Founder back. We do and after the fight is over, Loriss gives us a friendly farewell. Then the Dominion shows up to save Earth from the Iconians in the final battle. That's the last we see them except for the Temporal Accord signings and they appear peaceful there as well.

    What exactly is supposed to motivate them to attack us out of the blue? And what about Odo? He would have no desire to attack the Alliance and I'm sure there are Vorta and Jem'Hadar who would follow him. Would we see a civil war like the Vaadwaur? Because we don't really need a story repeat.
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    lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    Nothing in DS9 > @somtaawkhar said:
    > brian334 wrote: »
    >
    > snip
    >
    >
    >
    > Try to to keep this short.
    >
    > Your arguments about the Federation not using time travel, or sun extermination, as a weapon ignore the fact that this is Star Trek, not real life, and in Star Trek, what the Federation can't beat in power, they beat through diplomacy and giving. Like we did with the Iconians, if we can't beat The Dominion through war, we beat them through kindness.
    >
    > As for the source of my assertions of The Dominion's power, it comes from DS9, DS9's writers, and STO.
    >
    > -The Iconians make it clear on their report of The Dominion in "Sphere of Influence" that, even with all the technology and warriors they(The Iconians) have, The Dominion is a threat to be avoided until they have firmly conquered the Alpha and Beta quadrants, and can exploit their resources. Only then do the Iconians believe they will have the resources needed to beat The Dominion.
    >
    > -Similarly, we know their intelligence skills are top notch. As the DS9 writers have said outside the show, The Dominion knew of The Federation, and had been making plans to eliminate them in 200 years when the Federation was projected to enter into their area of space.(The opening of the wormhole obviously allowed the Federation to arrive much sooner). Meaning The Dominion has the ability to know about things going on in, quite literally, the opposite side of the galaxy, and presumably much in between as well.
    >
    > -We also can see in DS9 how much one Dominion fleet was able to tear through the combined forces of the Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance. The arrival of a second fleet of 2800 Dominion ships would have been such a blow to the Alliance that Sisko went into the wormhole, and pleaded with ascendant energy beings to make them disappear, because those reinforcements would have spelled certain doom for all the Alpha/Beta quadrant powers. Two Dominion fleets were enough to destroy the military power of the Alliance, and if The Dominion was like any other military power, they had even MORE fleets they hadn't even pulls out of reserve to fight the war.
    >
    > To give a comparison, within canon, we know the Federation has at least 10 fleets, or did during The Dominion War. Even if we assume The Dominion only had 10 fleets of 2800 ships themselves, that means 1/10 of The Dominion's military power was able to bring the Alliance to its knees, and 1/5th of The Dominion's military power would have simply ended the problem. The Dominion was, at least, 5 times more powerful then the Alliance during The Dominion War. The only reason why The Alliance didn't fall was because The Dominion didn't strike all out at first, and The Alliance was able to devise a revolutionary new kind of minefield to keep Dominion reinforcements from coming in and doing just that.
    >
    > Also, it was the Breen's energy weapon that was made useless, The Dominion themselves had nothing to do with it's development.
    >
    >
    >
    > Damn forum ate my post again, luckily I had it copied!

    It wasn't just the one fleet, they had ship yards in Cardassian space.
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    ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,571 Arc User
    Is that all this Thread is, a means to supposedly backing people into corners?

    Les Moonves or Jamran Harnoth or a combination?

    Being a speck does not necessarily mean First Federation Fleets could not devestate Dominion Fleets they encounter.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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    ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,571 Arc User
    Well since the Fesarius was the Flagship, that generally implies a Fleet behind it.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    reyan01 wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    Perhaps there are other areas in which the Alliance proves superior to the Dominion.
    No. As per somtaawkhar, NOTHING stands a chance against the Dominion. I suspect, at this point, he'd even come up with an argument for why the Q would have trouble against them.
    brian334 wrote: »
    Now, since @somtaawkhar objects to its potential as The Disaster, I would like him/her to reverse engineer from that assumption a way that it could happen which accounts for his objections.
    I don't think he can. As well reasoned as they are, the majority of his posts have been to disprove ANY negative point or comment that doesn't support the idea that the Dominion is invincible/unstoppable.

    Not trying to be spiteful here either, but honestly - this Dominion worship has become a little tiresome..


    Agreed. The Dominion are far from invincible/unstoppable. Take that Tzenkethi, for instance, in the last story line mission: snapped that Jem' neck like a twig, did he!?

    The Dominion, as a whole, certainly have weak spots. Their depenence on Ketracel White, for one. Remember those Jem'Hadar marooned on that moon? Didn't work out well for them, did it?

    The Founders' home planet is very isolated, and not near any sun we could blow up or something. All true. But that's also their weakness: if even 1 single ship makes it out there, they can easily nuke the site from orbit, and they'd have no way to call in quick support. Or any support at all, really.

    Also, it's sheer preposterous to assume the Iconians are dreading the Dominion at all. The Dominion are at 'our' level of technology, basically; sure, they have engineered their fighters to be tough, and are a pain for us to deal with. But the Iconians could wipe them out easily (as they were doing to us, frankly).

    The Iconians would nonetheless have to deal with the Dominion, sooner or later; but 1 galaxy at a time, eh?! The Iconians primarily focussed on our Quadrant, just so they could blow up Romulus (out of revenge). And it's also entirely possible the Iconians would have simply called it the day, after having taken care of our Quadrant. But not for fearing the Dominion, I assure you.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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    feiqafeiqa Member Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    Excuse me while I briefly change rails.
    The Dominion is controlled by three races. Of which One of them needs to eat.
    Founders have, as far as can be seen, no natural predators. The ability to share full detail information across all of them. Are supposedly expert genetic engineers. Even though we never see them doing anything medically related. point is they seem to be rather unimaginative on their own relying on same old tricks and not adapting. Despite with shape shifting, adapting should be their hat.
    Jem'hadar. Supposedly genetically engineered from the ground up. Loyal(ish) soldiers that no longer need to eat either. thanks to said engineering and making them dependent on a drug to keep them in line.
    While the Vorta were a race that supposedly was nice to the founders and protected one. For this they were enslaved. genetically rewritten to have bad sight and hearing. Eat only one piece of fruit, and love the founders as gods and be willing to suicide to protect them.
    All of this is all over the place in logic. Vorta are shown as the thinkers of the Dominion. planning, overseeing, and even being the scientists of the group. The jem'hadar seem like the perfect foil for the Vorta. Strong powerful, and bright enough to get past tricks.

    Now this might be me. But I think the vorta actually made the founders to battle the jem'hadar. The remnant of the jem'hadar brought in and turned into soldiers for the fledgling empire. But the founders rebelled and took over the vorta and thus the jem'hadar.

    I know this all sounds left field but bear with me. There was as far as we know. No founder at the signing of the temporal treaty. No jem'hadar either. They sent one lone vorta to bear witness. So the Dominion or at least the founders and their vorta lapdogs survived with respectable relations with the alliance.
    The title is the jem'hadar phrase. "Victory is Life." The only group that had such phrases.

    So this may be an attack. Not of the Dominion. But the Jem'hadar. Learning who they were, they lash out to reclaim their lost lives.
    And we ally with the Dominion remnant to stop them for good. The Dominion loses a servitor race and we have 2800 take 2.

    Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
    Network engineers are not ship designers.
    Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    As to the Dominion themselves: we recommend observation but no engagement. The Dominion are organized and used to subjugating large numbers of species spread across a large area of space. When the Alpha and Beta Quadrants are firmly under our control then we will have the resources needed to conquer the Dominion as well.
    Yeah, totally not afraid of The Dominion's skills at kicking ****.


    Indeed, totally not afraid of The Dominion at all. Basically, LOL, that bit says *exactly* what I said: that the Iconians would have have to deal with the Dominion, sooner or later, but that they're taking it one galaxy at a time. Which is the totally sensible thing to do, militarily.

    And as for being 'used to subjugating large numbers of species spread across a large area of space,' the Iconians have their own servitor races. That blurp you quoted essentially speaks of conquering the Dominion (as a certainty), but only later on, when they don't have their hands full. That's all.

    Ironically, quoting that, you just undercut your entire argument for the Iconians not (eventually) going after the Dominion.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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